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Thread: Step by Step Instructions to get Higher Ranking in Search Results

  1. #21

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    Thats interesting eborg. I think the only thing you can do as a webmaster is be as aware as you can of these scams. There are so many traps that it has to be really difficult for most newbies starting with companies like Network Solutions domain squating when the get you to register a domain with them. "Sir, hold please"... A friend abandoned a domain over that one.

  2. #22
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    I think the problem is that too many people see traffic as the end goal when it's not. It's an important part of the process, but it's not the goal in and of itself. Unless that traffic does something it's pretty much useless.

    Sadly people, thinking traffic is the end goal, do things to drive any kind of traffic to their site, without considering whether or not that traffic is useful.
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  3. #23

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    I am aware of that MLM "scam" as you call it selling the .ws domains. I know the domains were originally targeted to West Samoa but if you check the domain registries like Godaddy they market the .ws as standing for website. This is from Godaddy (.ws An all-purpose Web Site Domain. $14.99) That whole West Samoa thing is pretty much dead except for the 11 West Samoa businesses with a .ws domain. I dont think it was that MLM company that was first to market the "website" term for a .ws domain.

    Besides, it is no different than BP marketing their brand in the US as "Better Petroleum" when BP stands for British Petroleum. I guess they figured we would not buy their gas because of a 235 year old grudge???

    We have had 1 client with .ws domains he purchased and insisted we used. I think with a lot of the "good" domains in .com gone your are going to see more of these. I am already starting to notice more .info, .me. .biz keyword domains. If you are "West Side Pizza" and you have a .ws Domain and that is what you are marketing on your fliers and ads and people find you, fine with me.

    I have seen the MLM program for the .ws domains. The hosting they provided, email accounts, and the software tools they had for newbies were pretty good for what they were intended for, It was $120 a year. Big deal, it got them on the net and it is a great thing to start to teach young kids about internet development. I dont see it as a "scam" because I see the value in it, and I certainly have seen a lot worse. You can get the same thing from Godaddy for the same price and their WYSIWYG tool is absolute garbage.

    MLM is just another tool to sell things, it is not always a scam. I dont see Tupperware, Mary Kay, Avon, as companies that are scams.

    Bernie Madoff was a scam.

    I see a pattern here Vangogh, anything where you get paid to use someone else's product is a scam right?

    As far as the ads on the traffic generator being affiliate ads... I can not speculate because they are not labeled as such. Fact is, they are there, and in the big corporate world if you are a threat to the integrity of the device (logo, trademark, etc) you are going to have a lot of corporate lawyers banging on your door(especially with Wallmart) and 99.999% of big corporations do not allow affiliate distribution of their ads without their written consent and approval of where the ads are being displayed, you may as well ask God for the 11th commandment, you will have better luck getting it than a letter of placement that has to come from the CMO.. God hears your prayers, this guy wont answer your phone call.

    So let me ask you this?

    How do you determine the value of something unless you have used it and discovered it's value? Have you conducted any research as to what the actual ROI is? Or is it just based on an assumption from your vast marketing experience? I spent the $24 to conduct the research to substantiate what I am saying to the forum.

    In Adwords, to bid for page 1 of "search engine optimization" I think the bid is nearly 5 bucks. And just because you get the click, does not mean you get the job. I bet the cost to get a customer at $5 per click is about $75-$100

    That is 3,750 to 5,000 (30 second) page views in the traffic generator. That is better than I can get with direct mail!

    Now statistically what are the odds that someone will be interested in SEO out of 3,750-5,000 especially when I am targeting the ads to homeowners, with children 13-18, combined income of 75K or more, that are interested in business services, computers, and internet???

    Considering what I do for a living Vangogh, it puts me in a pretty good position to evaluate a marketing tool and determine it's value and what to expect the ROI to be.

    When you make a statement that implies that I am not able to judge that value you are basically saying I am not smart enough to do it.

    If you took the time to understand what I am trying to achieve with this then you would understand the value just like I understand you do not take a puritan approach to SEO.

    If your bot can give me traffic, if you have 50,000 different Ip addresses, can hit random pages in my website based on popularity, stay there for longer than 3.8 minutes, click a few adwords ads that it might be interested in, and bookmark my page in delicious and google (in separate accounts of course), then by all means go for it.

    You would have just found the greatest SEO tool on the planet.

    I checked rank checker this morning, we jumped 5 places over night. The page went from being ranked 58 yesterday to 53 today, and there was a huge spike in our Alexia rank (Your website has an Alexa rank of 2,131,260 which is in the top 7.61 % of all websites.)

    So the increase in the search placement has been confirmed by the Alexa increase or visa versa, who cares. The fuel gauge itself has nothing to do with gasoline. It is just a gauge that someone can understand.

    So the value I wanted out of the traffic generator service is exactly what I wanted and it worked, I checked our mailbox this morning for the newsletter subscribe results and I had 11 new subscribers.

    We are lucky to get 5 a week.

    I got all that for $24

    That was an EXCEPTIONALLY GOOD ROI for this exercise.
    Last edited by royhunters; 08-07-2009 at 12:42 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by royhunters View Post

    If your bot can give me traffic, if you have 50,000 different Ip addresses, can hit random pages in my website based on popularity, stay there for longer than 3.8 minutes, click a few adwords ads that it might be interested in, and bookmark my page in delicious and google (in separate accounts of course), then by all means go for it.

    You would have just found the greatest SEO tool on the planet.

    I checked rank checker this morning, we jumped 5 places over night. The page went from being ranked 58 yesterday to 53 today, and there was a huge spike in our Alexia rank (Your website has an Alexa rank of 2,131,260 which is in the top 7.61 % of all websites.)

    So the increase in the search placement has been confirmed by the Alexa increase or visa versa, who cares. The fuel gauge itself has nothing to do with gasoline. It is just a gauge that someone can understand.

    So the value I wanted out of the traffic generator service is exactly what I wanted and it worked, I checked our mailbox this morning for the newsletter subscribe results and I had 11 new subscribers.

    We are lucky to get 5 a week.

    I got all that for $24

    That was an EXCEPTIONALLY GOOD ROI for this exercise.
    But traffic generators are not real people. Bots don't click on ads and if they did, what ever program you have on your site would catch it, especially google adsense.

    Bot traffic only works for you if you are selling private advertising and base your rates on your stats.
    So it may help your Alexa ranking, but it is a fake increase, not based on the popularity of your site. So for the end user, or buyer of ads, he is getting ripped because your stats are not an actual reflection of real people actually viewing the ad.
    So bot traffic is not an SEO tool, it is a black hat method for committing fraud, I don't care how many "reputable" companies do it.
    Last edited by Harold Mansfield; 08-07-2009 at 02:06 PM.

  5. #25

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    Also, if you are paying $5 per click in an adwords campaign, something is really wrong with your campaign. I'll default to Vangogh as to what you should be paying to place in SEO, but for $5 per click, I suspect you are paying your way to the top instead of putting together a good campaign.

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    You're very good at twisting other people's words Roy

    The .ws is a scam because it's built on the lie that a .ws domain is just as good as a .com. When I first encountered someone promoting those domains I did some research and found a 50/50 split between people complaining strongly about the company and those working for the company who talked about how wonderful they were. Some of the complaints revolved around people not being able to cancel even after following the company's instructions for canceling to the letter.

    As an SEO you should know that domains are important and recommending people get .ws domains is irresponsible. As far as some of the domains like .info and .biz there's indication they don't do as well in search engines, because they tend to be used more by spammers. That doesn't mean just because you use one of those domains you're up to something nefarious, but it seems to be a signal against you. Reputable SEOs will recommend going with the.com .net, .org or country specific TLDs. Sure some people can be successful with a different extension, it's still not going to be recommended.

    Besides, it is no different than BP marketing their brand in the US as "Better Petroleum" when BP stands for British Petroleum.
    There's a huge difference. BP is rebranding themselves. The .ws domain people are trying to pass off their product as something it is not. It would be like BP selling you gasoline and then filling your tank with tuna fish.

    anything where you get paid to use someone else's product is a scam right?
    Umm...where did you get that from? Nowhere did I ever say or even indicate I felt that way. Thinking one MLM company is a scam doesn't imply the same thinking apples to all MLM companies. Like I said you're good at twisting people's words.

    Have you conducted any research as to what the actual ROI is? Or is it just based on an assumption from your vast marketing experience?
    Of the specific company you mentioned no I haven't specifically researched them. I also don't need to jump off the top of the Empire State Building to know it's not good for me.

    I've said it a couple of times already, but I'll say it again. The general idea behind traffic exchanges is to reward people with pay or traffic for visiting another site. That is never going to be good traffic. You end up with a network of people visiting each other's sites, not because they have interest in those sites, but in order to get their reward. It's an artificial way to inflate your stats. If all you're interested in is making your stats look good then by all means join a traffic exchange. If you're interested in actually having a successful site and business then you'd be better off avoiding them.

    When you make a statement that implies that I am not able to judge that value you are basically saying I am not smart enough to do it.
    What I've said implies nothing about your intelligence. I'm talking about a few specific things you've advised, which I don't think are good ideas. That doesn't imply anything beyond what I've said about those specific things.

    If your bot can give me traffic, if you have 50,000 different Ip addresses, can hit random pages in my website based on popularity, stay there for longer than 3.8 minutes, click a few adwords ads that it might be interested in, and bookmark my page in delicious and google (in separate accounts of course), then by all means go for it.
    You are aware that all of those things can be done programmatically. If you really want to waste your money I'll get you a price. Send me a check and once the funds have cleared I'll develop the program.

    So the increase in the search placement has been confirmed by the Alexa increase or visa versa, who cares. The fuel gauge itself has nothing to do with gasoline. It is just a gauge that someone can understand.
    Again you're confusing correlation with causation. Here's a different example. You're going to compete in 200 yard dash and naturally to practice you spend time running very fast. You observe that the faster you run the more you sweat. Since running is very tiring you decide why not just work on making yourself sweat more since sweating more and running faster seem to go together. I would it's obvious that sitting in a hot room to sweat more isn't going to make you a faster runner. Improving your Alexa ranking also isn't going to do anything to improve your ranking in search engines. The first does not cause the second.

    The page went from being ranked 58 yesterday to 53 today
    You are aware that search results fluctuate? It's not uncommon for the rank of the page to change from day to day or even hour to hour. You also realize that different people will see different results based on where they live and their search history?

    In Adwords, to bid for page 1 of "search engine optimization" I think the bid is nearly 5 bucks.
    Hardly the best phrase to bid on. It's one of the most general phrases for the topic and it's likely that a good many people searching for it aren't interested in hiring someone, but are interested in information. You'd bid on that phrase more as part of a branding campaign in which case you might expect to pay more for that phrase.

    AdWords isn't about limiting your bids on keywords to the keywords that are searched for the most. The idea is to discover which keywords actually lead to business, whether that's a sale or a lead or whatever action you want someone to take.

    If you took the time to understand what I am trying to achieve with this then you would understand the value
    I do understand (or at least think I understand) what you're trying to achieve. You're looking to drive traffic to websites without consideration of the value of that traffic to the site in question. Your goal is the numbers that show in your stats. My goal is helping businesses be successful.
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    I have been following this debate with interest - not that I'm likely to use any of the information from either side - but it seems to me there is a misunderstanding here. (Unless, I am the one not understanding - at which I would not be surprised!)

    Nonetheless, let me try.

    VG and others seem to be saying that the traffic generated by "pay-me-to-look" programs is "no-value" traffic and therefore is a scam.

    Roy seems to be saying that this "no-value" traffic is still traffic. While it is of no value itself, it still counts as traffic and will elevate the Alexa ranking, Google page rank and perhaps other rankings. These rankings may not bring business either, and the original "no-value" traffic may bring no business, however, the improved rankings so generated will bring "high-value" traffic.

    I understand the "pay-me-to-look" traffic is not to achieve sales but only to improve rankings. The improved rankings will move the target site up the serps to a better position which will bring more and better quality traffic not associated with the "pay-me-to-look" traffic.

    The business gain results from the higher serps positioning, which is achieved by the higher traffic, even though the initial traffic is "no-value" traffic.

    Did I get it right?

    OK. You can tell me to shut up, if you wish.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spider View Post
    I have been following this debate with interest - not that I'm likely to use any of the information from either side - but it seems to me there is a misunderstanding here. (Unless, I am the one not understanding - at which I would not be surprised!)

    Nonetheless, let me try.

    VG and others seem to be saying that the traffic generated by "pay-me-to-look" programs is "no-value" traffic and therefore is a scam.

    Roy seems to be saying that this "no-value" traffic is still traffic. While it is of no value itself, it still counts as traffic and will elevate the Alexa ranking, Google page rank and perhaps other rankings. These rankings may not bring business either, and the original "no-value" traffic may bring no business, however, the improved rankings so generated will bring "high-value" traffic.

    I understand the "pay-me-to-look" traffic is not to achieve sales but only to improve rankings. The improved rankings will move the target site up the serps to a better position which will bring more and better quality traffic not associated with the "pay-me-to-look" traffic.

    The business gain results from the higher serps positioning, which is achieved by the higher traffic, even though the initial traffic is "no-value" traffic.

    Did I get it right?

    OK. You can tell me to shut up, if you wish.
    "Pay me to look" programs are different from bot traffic, although the same result would be achieved. Bot traffic is cheaper.

    I'm probably arguing the wrong side of the coin in regards to bot traffic, but I do understand where he is coming from.

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    Frederick that's a good summary. The problem is that pay-me-to-look traffic isn't going to do anything to improve your rankings. If it did I would be the first to say it has value, even if that value were indirect.

    Alexa has 0 to do with SEO. Alexa has a toolbar and it uses the toolbar to track what sites people visit and report on which sites gave more traffic. There are problems with how Alexa gathers its data, making it's stats less useful than they appear, but let's assume for a moment that their stats are perfect.

    It sill has nothing to do with seo or ranking. Search engines do not rank pages based on how much traffic a site receives. It's generally going to be true that sites that rank well have more search traffic than sites that don't rank well. Naturally if pages of your site are consistently showing up in search results people are going to visit those pages.

    However that does not make the reverse true.

    If P then Q does not imply that If Q then P is true. Didn't we all learn that in high school or junior high?

    Search engines are collecting data about how we search and what sites we visit, but there's little, if any, indication they are using traffic patterns in their ranking algorithms. The problem is those traffic patterns are incredibly easy to manipulate, which would lead to spammy results in the search engines.

    The problem here is focusing on improving the reporting, improving the stats in artificial ways that don't ultimately do anything for the site. It's like a teacher wanting to help students understand a topic better. The teacher observes that those who get better grades on tests seem to have a better understanding of the topic. So on future tests the teacher makes the questions easier so everyone gets better grades. The reporting now shows the students are getting better grades so they must be understanding the material better, right? Obviously not. The teacher has just artificially changed the way the reporting is done. Nothing has actually changed with the students understanding of the material.
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  10. #30

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    Perhaps I have twisted some of your words out of misunderstanding them, your last post clarified a couple things, I apologize.

    Lets get back to basics here.

    When you have a website that is new, the first thing you need to do is market that website before that website can market you. You need to get that website in front of a lot of eyes to do that, you need to do what you can to improve its rank in search results and it's popularity because your customers are at the top of that rank, not the bottom.

    Is that a fair statement?

    So if I have a new website, my first goal should be to market that website, try to get it noticed by as many people as possible so I can find the people who like it. The people who like it will link to it, bookmark it, use it, whatever. Correct?

    My goal is to market the website at this moment
    . I do not care about quality visitors, leads, sales, anything other than finding people who like the website. I want to find these people for only one reason, for them to link to the website because they like it. The more people that do that, the higher the rank will become.

    Then when the website has become popular I switch gears I start to look for customers because then I will have a marketing tool with authority and that authority creates sales, revenue, the purpose that site was intended to do.

    So to get people to see the website I have to do everything possible to get as many eyes on it as possible. Write blogs, submit those blogs to sites like technorati, blah blah all those wonderful sites filling the search results with garbage because for some really strange reason.. people use them to find information.

    I found a link to my website in Norway where the guy translated one of my articles into Norwegian and maintained my link. I got that link because of submitting to those crap sites. Did he buy anything? No. He did what I wanted him to do. Create a link.

    My only purpose when dealing with a new website is to increase it's popularity. PERIOD nothing else. I have a lot of rocks at my disposal I can turn over to find those people that like the site.

    Squidoo is a rock, I find 2 people under it
    Blog catalog is a rock I find 3 people under it
    Technorati is a rock, I find 4 people there
    Facebook is a rock I find 1 person there
    Twitter is a rock I find 4 people there
    EzineArticles is a rock I find 2 people there
    PRWeb is a rock I find 3 people there
    ClixSense is a rock I find 6 people there

    So by doing all of those things I found 25 people that gave me the links I wanted. No sales, no leads, no money, NOTHING just links. All I wanted was the links.

    So the links boost the site up from 10001 to 58

    OK so now I am at 58 what else can I do to get the site to rank higher? Get traffic. I do not care what kind of traffic, as long as it is traffic that Google likes. Be it from your bot or any other bot or some woman sitting there like a zombie clicking ads all day... I dont care.

    So then the page goes from 58 to 53 GREAT!

    Whats next?

    Directories. Pay the directories their ransom. Pay them all, pay yellowpages Quest, All of them because I want the links.

    Then the site goes from 53 to 30 because I did all that. Great!

    Then during all that time I was still writing blogs, I got more people to like me, I made 5,000 posts in forums, I paid cliKSense another $100 and the next thing I know...

    I am ranked #8

    Now that I am ranked #8 I have a marketing tool that I can use to market my business and make me some money.

    Now I can submit my articles to peer's in the industry, Now I can look for the traffic that is going to get me leads, now I can spend a lot of money on a REAL adwords campaign and get customers.

    You can not do that with your website buried at 1001!

    A three week old gosling does not lay golden eggs. I need to feed it, water it, grow it and then once it is old enough and big enough it can start to lay those golden eggs.

    All those "SEO steps" are designed to market the website. NOT the business.

    I do not care one bit, one iota, about getting customers from it. NOT YET. My goal is only to get the site ranked as fast as possible without getting it banned and using every tool under the sun to do that.

    Now... I can use a traffic exchange system and throw about $300-$400 over the course of 3 months to get it 20,000 unique visitors (THAT ARE REAL PEOPLE) I get some bookmarks out of it, I get some newsletter sub's out of it, I get some links out of it, I get a boost in the ranks... I'm happy

    You are not going to code some bot for $300 and no, if i knew it was a bot, I would not use it. That is where I will draw the line. That is black hat, a legit traffic generator is not. I am paying someone to look at my page the way you pay someone to mow your grass.

    My customers come to me for a very short amount of time in most cases. If someone comes to me and says I want you to build me a website that will get me customers, you have 3 months to do it, I will pay you 15K to do it, but I want a tool that will work when it is given back to me...

    The race is on. He does not want customers from me, he wants a tool that will get him customers...

    Anyway, the traffic generator is not something I usually do. It's pretty rare and I usually will only use one when the type of site is for a service in an extremely difficult segment like attorneys, used cars, etc.

    It has a purpose with a benefit when used in the right context.

    Try to get a website ranked high for a Law Firm... you will be pulling your nose hair out by the end of that "fun" Lawyers are the worst to work for, and the hardest sites to get ranked. I will not touch a Law Firm website for less than 50K because that is when you REALLY have to use everything that is out there and buy a lot of links to get that site ranked and producing leads.
    Last edited by royhunters; 08-07-2009 at 06:39 PM.

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