Is it just me, or is employment modern say slavery or indentured servitude?

[Harold Mansfield]

Your contention that employees are hapless fools subjected to the whims and control of employers is somewhat condescending, in my humble opinion. Each of us is our own engine of financial activity, whether as an employee or as a business. Being an employee isn’t a form of servitude or slavery. For many it is a luxury to be able to generate income without the risk and responsibility of being in business themselves.

I agree with Paul. If you hate your job whose fault is that? Your employers, or yours for staying there?

I used to say there's 2 kinds of employees. The kind that get 30 minutes for lunch and have to get permission to call in sick, or the kind that get an hour for lunch and receive "get well soon" messages when they call in sick.

If you're the 1st, it's time to get a move on and be one of the hour lunch people and that usually means hard work and some education. Not too many 30 minute lunch people become hour lunch people without superior skills and education.

[Paul]

I like your lunch hour analogy. You ONE HOUR LUNCH employees are generally quite happy with their job, employer and life in general. I always felt that being an employee was just a another form of your own business. You trade your time and skills for compensation, pretty basic.

[Harold Mansfield]

I always felt that being an employee was just a another form of your own business. You trade your time and skills for compensation, pretty basic.

That's how I always felt when I was a bartender and drove a limo. The company provided the space, organization and tools to do the work and take care of their customers. However, how much I made by going the extra mile and building a clientele of my own was up to me. Of course that attitude and set up only works when your salary is based on tips or commission. Otherwise you have to bust hump hoping for a promotion with a raise.

[turboguy]

Now that we have had a chance to kick that around a bit let me add a second question to the mix.

Is it just me, or is being a business owner a form of modern day slavery or indentured servitude?

Are not we business owners a slave to the government. We are told what we have to pay employees, We can't discriminate, we even have to pay for the time they spend eating or taking a leak. If we have more work and can't get it done in the time they are supposed to and have to work longer hours we have to pay them more money. Why is it our fault if they are too slow to get their work done in the 40 hours we want it done in. Then too, we have to follow all these stupid regulations that are "supposed" to make the work place safer most of which are stupid.

It just doesn't seem fair to me. In a perfect free market economy should we not be able to pay people whatever we want and make them work as long as we need them.

[Harold Mansfield]

Oh boy.

Now that we have had a chance to kick that around a bit let me add a second question to the mix.

Is it just me, or is being a business owner a form of modern day slavery or indentured servitude?

Are not we business owners a slave to the government.
.

No. You are not. There are plenty of countries where you are a slave to a government who either always has their hand out, or are so corrupt that it's impossible for an honest business owner to make a living. I'll start with China and end with Russia and there's at least 50 countries in between.

We are told what we have to pay employees,

Before there were standards, children worked in factories and mines, and people were paid pennies a day. The government doesn't tell you how much to pay. It only says that you cannot pay below the poverty line, and honestly min wage is still below the poverty line, which the tax payer has to subsidize so that people working for min can eat. So in essence, even paying the minimum still puts a burden on the tax payer to subsidize the profits of companies like McDonald's and Walmart.

We can't discriminate,

Blame the United States Constitution for that one. And actually you can. No one can change what's in your heart. However, running a business is not a right. It's a privilege granted to you where you promise to follow the law if granted that privilege. If your personal baggage, politics or religion prevents you from doing that then don't ask for a license.

we even have to pay for the time they spend eating or taking a leak. If we have more work and can't get it done in the time they are supposed to and have to work longer hours we have to pay them more money.

Refer to my previous statement about child labor, and go ahead and add in immigrants and farm workers. In short please see the 1800's through early 1900's. Standards wouldn't be necessary if employers did the right thing. Unfortunately when no one is watching, Boss Hog will cut every corner possible to increase profits to the detrmiment and safety of his workers.

Why is it our fault if they are too slow to get their work done in the 40 hours we want it done in.

It is your fault. You hired them. If they aren't up to the task, find someone who is. But therein lies the rub. You can't hire better if you aren't paying better or aren't a nice person to work for.

Then too, we have to follow all these stupid regulations that are "supposed" to make the work place safer most of which are stupid.

Again, refer to my earlier statements on child labor, and add what used to be horrible work conditions in America through the early 1900's. It may seem stupid now, but back then people literally died on the job because things were so unsafe.

It just doesn't seem fair to me. In a perfect free market economy should we not be able to pay people whatever we want and make them work as long as we need them.

There is no perfect free market economy and what you're describing is what they have in places where we outsource all of our manufacturing. It's basically slave labor where the boss controls everything from how little they pay, to where you live and what you are allowed to do.


Experience has taught me that you don't get more productivity out of people by treating them like crap.
Good employers are gracious and thankful for good employees because they are nothing without them.

If you don't have good employees, it's your fault. Either you're a bad boss or you don't pay enough to attract the talent you need.

This notion that employers should be worshiped and thanked for letting people work for them is laughable. As an employee I do my job, and earn my pay. The job I do puts money in YOUR pocket. You aren't giving me anything. You need people like me, more than I need you specifically. If you aren't paying well and are a jerk, I can go at anytime.

I think that's what's wrong with were we are today. Employers act like Kings who treat workers as if they owe them. That never works out well and your productivity and bottom line will suffer because of it. Appreciated employees go the extra mile and care about your company.

I can point you to a number of case studies of tech companies that have failed because they treated employees like crap, and they all bailed so fast when opportunity arose that the company couldn't sustain itself because no one would work for it. I know a few local bars ( since I was in that business) that have failed for the same reason. From million dollar joints to Mom and Pops.

Owning a business doesn't mean you're just automatically a good boss. Some people are so horrible that they should be banned from managing other humans.

[Freelancier]

In a perfect free market economy

Doesn't exist. Except maybe in places like Somalia. So disabuse yourself of the notion that that's what we have or even that's what we're striving toward, because we're not and having been for well over 100 years.

[Harold Mansfield]

At the risk of rambling, the whole notion that the government is taking something from you unfairly ( taxes) is short sighted. Because you use the resources that taxes pay for to run your business. The roads and rail that you depend on for shipments and deliveries, and for your employees to get to work. Water and sewage. Standards and regulated power. Air travel. Trade agreements. Interstate commerce. Regulation of the internet and banking so that your money doesn't just disappear. Law enforcement to protect your property. And a million other things that you take for granted that you expect to be there, but complain about paying for.

I agree that the tax system is outdated and heavily favors the top more than the working class and small business owner, but for the most part pooling our money and resources to get big things done that we all need and cannot do alone...for the most part that works and is responsible for this being the most powerful economy in the world.

If you really think all of the things that you take for granted would "just happen" and people would just do the right thing if there was no Government watching over it, pick any number of countries that have been around a lot longer than us, but are still dirt poor with no economies and explain why it doesn't "just happen" there.

It's not that there aren't people there who are just as smart. It's because they don't have the structure, resources, and government that supports and encourages hard work and innovation without the underlying corruption.

[Fulcrum]

@OP - Great troll. Just enough truth in there to make your argument seem legitimate.

@ Harold - Take a deep breath. I think Ray went mostly to the opposite extreme that the OP started with to make a similar point proving the same fallacy. However, you forgot about the professional welfare bum that has $10K+ worth of ink and metal (that's your tax dollars that paid for some of that). I know of mail carriers that wanted to report welfare fraud but couldn't due to being accused of reading other people's mail.

@Turboguy - A tip of the hat to you. You forgot to mention the addict (booze or drugs, it doesn't matter) that is sent to rehab on your dime or the guy that clocks in, spends his first 30min on the toilet, spends another 15min there before and after coffee as well as lunch, and 30 min on the toilet again at the end of the day before clocking out.

[Harold Mansfield]

@ Harold - Take a deep breath. I think Ray went mostly to the opposite extreme that the OP started with to make a similar point proving the same fallacy. However, you forgot about the professional welfare bum that has $10K+ worth of ink and metal (that's your tax dollars that paid for some of that). I know of mail carriers that wanted to report welfare fraud but couldn't due to being accused of reading other people's mail.

@Turboguy - A tip of the hat to you. You forgot to mention the addict (booze or drugs, it doesn't matter) that is sent to rehab on your dime or the guy that clocks in, spends his first 30min on the toilet, spends another 15min there before and after coffee as well as lunch, and 30 min on the toilet again at the end of the day before clocking out.

These are all extreme examples. It's not the norm. There are far more people committing disability fraud than welfare fraud these days. It's not as easy as it used to be, and most welfare goes to people with children, not single able bodied adults.

If you have an addict working for you, and he's not union, you fire him. If he's union, give it to them. Many have support for treatment programs.

My point is, anyone can think of the most extreme circumstance and someone will say they have a friend or cousin or guy in the next town over that has seen it and their hands were tied, or affirmative action or some other reason that really can't be proven. Not discounting what you are saying, but we tend to get caught up in a lot of hyperbole and folklore and walk around as if it's main stream reality and we are helpless to accept it.

Bottom line, if you see someone defrauding the system..report them. You don't need to read their mail to do it. You just pick up the phone. Sometimes there's even a reward. It's the responsibility of EVERY American. Every bum on a street corner drinking out of a paper bag isn't getting welfare. Unless you know their personal information for sure, it's all just speculation because we have this extreme paranoia in America that everyone who is poor is somehow not only on welfare but committing fraud.

Also millions of people get government checks every month. From military retirees, government workers, social security, unemployment insurance, pensions, people doing business with the government, and on and on. They all come from the same treasury, and the checks all look the same. So you can't see an envelope and tell which government check is what. They've even been disguising the envelopes to thwart people who steal mail on the first of the month and they've been doing that for at least 10 years now.

Also, they don't send welfare checks anymore. Food assistance goes on a card, rent assistance goes to the landlord. Most everything else is direct deposit or on a debit card. The government doesn't send cash checks to welfare recipients. Even UE is on a debit card now and the Government sends you the card. It's all electronic ( well, mostly).

I like to get upset on facts and things that I know are happening.

And I'm not upset or being argumentative. I'm just very opinionated on this subject. I also grew up with my Mom working for the Social Services Department for the state of Michigan for 30 years, so it's really easy for me to separate fact from hyperbole on this subject. They system doesn't work in a way that matches the fiction about welfare fraud and who's doing it.

To be honest, while we're out there looking for Ronald Reagan's welfare queen the biggest fraudsters were doctors falsely or over billing medicaid, landlords billing for tenants that no longer lived there, and corner stores buying food stamps for 50 cents on the dollar. They were hitting the tax payer for 100's of millions for decades. We finally get that cleaned up and started putting people in jail. I'm just saying, it's not the 70's anymore.

[Fulcrum]

We are in agreement, for the most part. What you saw with your mom working for social services has helped frame your understanding yet my sister saw a lot of what I said when she interned at a clinic. Maybe its just the difference between our countries and how our social programs are setup, or maybe there are fundamental problems that need to be rooted out (that's going a little too far off topic though and borders on the taboo of politics).

As for the addict getting fired, again its probably the difference between the US and Canada. There have been companies up here that were forced to pay an exceptionally high (2 years+ salary) severance even though they fired said addict, for cause (against employee handbook) even though federal law states 2 weeks severance per year employed (lawyers found a loophole since the provincial code does not spell out how severance is handled).

I still say that the OP, AmateurBusinessman, is trolling us. Look at the other 3 threads he has started. Well written posts that border on, or even cross into, the absurd - that or he's doing research for school and not being up front with us.