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vangogh
02-04-2009, 12:27 PM
In a recent post Seth Godin asked which comes first, the product or the marketing? (http://sethgodin.typepad.com/seths_blog/2009/02/which-comes-first-the-product-or-the-marketing.html).


just about every successful product or service is the result of smart marketing thinking first, followed by a great product that makes the marketing story come true.

I agree with Seth. I think a major problem many people have with success is they first develop a product or service and then hope to tack on marketing after. Often the product is one no one really wants or needs or can already get in so many other places.

If you start with marketing first you can build your product or service to fill an existing need, you can tailor it for a given segment of people, you can bake in things that help you stand out from the competition.

I think marketing first is a much better way to have a successful product or service. What do you think? Should the marketing come first or should the product or service come first and then the marketing come after?

nealrm
02-04-2009, 01:56 PM
Vangough,
It all depends on what "Marketing" means. Marketing refers to the advertising and promotion of a product. It can also be used in a more general way to include product development.

The product development needs to be done before you try to sell anything. It will address item like how are you trying to sell to, what is market demand and what features are required.

Advertising needs to be done when the product is released (Or shortly before).

rezzy
02-04-2009, 01:59 PM
Well I think its important to make sure a product has a market. A lot of companies market before they have product available, but its already conceived. Take car manufactures for example. They advertise a car months to years before its available on the market. This is partially to gauge consumer demand.

I think the processes go hand in hand. Creating a product no one is interested wont be any benefit but some things are so fresh people dont know they want it yet.

Facebook and the like popped on the scene, with no advertising. The power of people advertised them. They created a product and we without being marketed to used it. I think its broken down based on the market, expenses to creation of a product and barriers to entry.

KristineS
02-04-2009, 04:16 PM
There definitely needs to be market research before you release any product. Putting a product out there and hoping people will buy it won't get you anywhere. You can have the most compelling (you think) product in the world but if people don't want it they won't buy it. So you have to find a need or a niche that needs filling first, or at least a different way or reason for a product that already exists.

Once you have that, then you need to decide how you'll give your product or service a unique image and brand. That can't happen until you have the specific product.

cbscreative
02-04-2009, 06:38 PM
Marketing refers to the advertising and promotion of a product.

This is a common belief that is not true, and often gets business people in trouble when they associate marketing and advertising as being the same thing. It's probably because they are often used together that many people view them without recognizing they serve completely different functions. Advertising serves only to raise awareness and provide exposure. Without good marketing, advertising fails because just telling everyone you're there does not automatically create sales.

Because of what marketing really is, I would agree that marketing should be first and foremost, not an afterthought. When you strip away all the complicated explanations of marketing, it really just comes down to being able to identify who your customer is, get inside their mind, and convince them to buy from you. Until you have done your marketing, advertising is a waste of money, and even product development is either misguided or pointless.

jem
02-04-2009, 07:52 PM
I have a friend who used to work at Readers Digest in the UK back in the late 70's/early 80's.

She was a mainframe programmer. They didn't have all the fancy doo-dads and reporting tools available today so they literally hand-coded each and every campaign.

They would give her criteria and she would hard-code the criteria into the code. They would test lots of different offers/book titles etc - THAT DIDN'T EVEN EXIST. When they found one that hit (i.e. got enough of a response rate) they would create the product to match the offer.

She says they pretty much built their business off of non-existent products they knew would sell then create them

I guess it's a fine line between marketing and research, but surely the best research is REAL marketing where people have actually offered to send money...

I hadn't though of that story in like 20 years but man you have my creative juices going.....what can I market that I don't have....hmmmm (20 something hot studly dude, full head of hair, 6 pack abs - any buyers?)

Simon

seolman
02-04-2009, 09:47 PM
Seth is such a smart guy. Most great products happen as a result of a couple workmates sitting around talking about a technology they like (usually over a drink so they really get uninhibited). Then one of them says "hey, what if we took this and combined it with that?" Voila! Idea born!

But where did the idea come from? Two guys who have been around a product or technology for quite some time and have noticed a NEED developing or perhaps a BETTER WAY of doing something. That in itself is a mini market study.

The fact they may develop a new product from their little meeting will likely drive a true market study. But the market study preceded the product, even if it was a bit informal.

In some cases product development is not driven by market knowledge, rather by individual practical needs such as when a farmer finds a better way to plant a seed or harvest a crop. Another larger agro-engineering firm may come along and notice the innovation and either swipe it (if the intellectual property is not protected) or offer to commercialize it on behalf of the individual. In this second example the market did not drive the initial design of the product, only the production and eventual marketing. So the product came first.

Marcomguy
02-05-2009, 09:27 AM
Some executives think marketing is putting lipstick on a pig. Others think that if you had done your marketing right, you wouldn't have produced the pig in the first place.

Product development, market research, market knowledge...they're all part of marketing. Some companies are marketing-driven, some are not. Those that aren't will make a product and then tell the marketing department to sell it. If the product is something customers don't like, marketing is still on the hook for getting customers to buy.

That leads to inflated marketing claims, pushy salespeople and customers who feel they were tricked into buying something they never wanted. All the things that give marketing and sales a bad name.

Marketing-oriented companies think of the market first. What does the market need or want? In seolman's example, the market is the two guys sitting around looking for a better way to do things.

vangogh
02-05-2009, 11:08 AM
Marketing refers to the advertising and promotion of a product

Marketing is everything you do to sell your product or service. Advertising and promotion is only one part of marketing. Marketing is your research and your brand. It's the way you write your copy. It's your choice of colors for your packaging, your website, your business card. It's a lot more than just advertising and promotion.

If you start with marketing in mind you can create products and tailor services so they have more likelihood of selling from the start. One of Seth's examples was the Prius. That's a car that could only sell if there was a market for it. Toyota saw that many people wanted a car that was more environmentally friendly than what already existed. Seeing that market they were able to create a car specifically for that market. Maybe they determine in advance the hybrid market prefers the colors blue and green. In that case they make blue and green cars. Maybe they discover this market isn't so concerned with going 0-60 in record time. So they don't put money into making the car accelerate so fast.

The idea is to learn what your market wants and then create something for that market. If you build the product first with no idea of how it will sell or who will want it, you're reduced to hoping a market exists or stretching the truth.

If on the other hand you know about your market and why it chooses a certain product you can craft the story or your product to match the story the market tells itself and build that story into your product.

Think of it another way. If your market is looking for a high end doesn't it make sense to actually build a high end product? If your market is going to be more concerned about price doesn't it make sense to figure out how to build the product at the lowest cost. The high end market isn't going to buy the cheaper product and the cost conscious market isn't going to buy the high end product.

nealrm
02-05-2009, 12:42 PM
OK - I have been misquoted twice. If your going to quote me, please quote me completely. This is what I said.
It all depends on what "Marketing" means. Marketing refers to the advertising and promotion of a product. It can also be used in a more general way to include product development.

Yes - Marketing can and does refer to everything from creation to advertising the product. But, it also can refer to specifically the advertising of a product. That is why I broke my answer to into 2 parts. The first addressing product development (target market, market demand, etc). And the second part addressing advertising.

cbscreative
02-05-2009, 01:06 PM
I took your complete stement into consideration, neal, and I was not picking on you at all. For the benefit of everyone reading the thread, I wanted to add some clarification because of how commonly misunderstood marketing is. I'm sure vangogh's motives were similar.

nealrm
02-05-2009, 01:16 PM
Understood; and you are right, the concept of marketing is misunderstood. If many small business put more thought into what, why and how they were offering their product, we would see fewer failures. That is one of the reason I strongly encourage start-ups to do a general business plan.

vangogh
02-05-2009, 03:02 PM
Sorry Neal. I wasn't meaning to misquote you either. However I would say it doesn't really depend on the definition of marketing. The definition is the all inclusive one. The definition that marketing is only advertising and promotion is incorrect.

None of what I said was meant to pick on you either. Sorry if it came across that way. I just wanted to get across that marketing is more than advertising. I agree that many people misunderstand the concept. Again, sorry if I implied you were one of those people.

Dan Furman
02-05-2009, 07:39 PM
I disagree with this (big surprise, right?) It goes back to my whole "make a sale" thing.

So basically, this is telling the laid off person sitting at their kitchen table looking to start a business to first forget about what they'd do and instead go do market research and find out what people want, and then fill that need? And everyone agrees with that? Really???? That's how one starts a business?

I'd tell the person to choose something they are good at, something that they like, and then go try and sell it (within reason, of course).

The thing here is it's "Seth", so when he says something like "just about every successful product or service is the result of smart marketing thinking first, followed by a great product that makes the marketing story come true" nobody calls him on it.

Know what? For startups from nothing (which is essentially what we talk about here), I'll bet almost anything that isn't true. It may be true when Hershey's decides to launch a new product - yea, see what people want first.

But again, for the little startup guy? That's just bad advice.

My .02 anyway.

nealrm
02-05-2009, 08:09 PM
You disagree Dan, I'm surprised :rolleyes:.

I do agree with "choose something they are good at, something that they like". (Hopefully they are the same thing). I don't agree on the "then go sell it". Between those to step you need to think about who you are going to sell to, how much to ask, how you are going to deliverer the product.

In the initial stage these don't need to be written, highly thought out ideas. But you must have a general idea before you approach any customers. Once you decide to make this a business, you really should sit down and develop a detailed business plan.

seolman
02-05-2009, 08:10 PM
I don't see him saying that at all Dan. In each of his cases he sites companies that have existing product lines and markets so I think it is a given that the type of product is a known and some sales of similar products have already occurred.

What we're agreeing with him on is how important knowing your market is before you just design something up and sell it based on limited information. Imagine if Toyota made 5 cars in the exact same class rather than different types for different markets. 5 similar SUV's with 5x the development costs? Good market knowledge keeps you from making those types of mistakes.

Anyone just starting out in small business isn't going to be spending that type of development money so it's not such an issue and yes they may choose to sell a few products and get a sense of the market as they grow.

billbenson
02-05-2009, 08:36 PM
There is an old expression - a product looking for a market - or something to that extent.

Whether its a product under development or an existing product, do the market research first. To many people are afraid to give ideas out on the internet or via other venues. You can be coy about it, but the reality is, it's really unusual for someone to steal your idea or concept. Even the direct competition.

Dan Furman
02-05-2009, 08:55 PM
Anyone just starting out in small business isn't going to be spending that type of development money so it's not such an issue and yes they may choose to sell a few products and get a sense of the market as they grow.

But then I almost don't understand why, in the small business forum, everyone agrees with the "market first" line of thought?

I guess it's because here, I prettymuch focus my opinions on the small business. Not "business in general", but small, kitchen table startup (which is very different).

Maybe I should put that in my sig or something :)

cbscreative
02-05-2009, 10:22 PM
If we're talking about kitchen table business, many of the same rules still apply. Because of the Internet, the research phase has been reduced to time investment if you don't have the money. There are even inexpensive tools that drastically reduce the time. Like neal pointed out above, many business failures could be avoided with proper marketing. I very much agree with that.

One of the cardinal rules of marketing is to differeniate yourself from the competition. If you fail in that area, it doesn't matter whether you are kitchen table or fortune 500, you lose. Marketing really does have the potential to make or break you.

Dan Furman
02-05-2009, 11:26 PM
If we're talking about kitchen table business, many of the same rules still apply. Because of the Internet, the research phase has been reduced to time investment if you don't have the money. There are even inexpensive tools that drastically reduce the time. Like neal pointed out above, many business failures could be avoided with proper marketing. I very much agree with that.

One of the cardinal rules of marketing is to differeniate yourself from the competition. If you fail in that area, it doesn't matter whether you are kitchen table or fortune 500, you lose. Marketing really does have the potential to make or break you.

Of course it does. I never said it didn't. I just don't think it should come first. It seems like most people think it should. I don't get that.

You say differentiate yourself (which I verymuch agree with) - but in the context of a small biz startup, what you are going to do comes first. That's my point. I mean, how can you differentiate yourself if you don't even know what it is you are going to do???

vangogh
02-06-2009, 11:21 AM
Dan I think this is still important for a small business. I think before you offer a product or service you should have some idea of the market for that product or service. You probably aren't going to do the same kind of research a large company would do, but I think your chances for success increase if you can think from a marketing point of view from the start.

I don't think this means you have to spend weeks or months planning before trying to make your first sale. In fact I think the whole thing can be an iterative process. You could see about getting that first sale, make it, and subsequently tailor your product or service based on your market research in order to build the marketing in to version 2 of your offering.

This to me isn't about what has to come first. It's more about understanding that your products and services are going to sell better if they incorporate marketing into them. If you're selling a product and the market for that product all prefers green, you're not going to have much luck selling red. Or rather you're going to be a lot more successful selling green than red.

You could certainly build your product without doing any research, but once you discover your market prefers green you should start building more green products. You can't continue to sell a red product and then create commercials and ads telling everyone it's green.

That to me is the nature of Seth's advice. You're going to be more successful if your product or service is created with marketing in mind. But that doesn't mean you can't start a business until you've done all the market research. If your initial investment is going to be large you probably should do the research first, but for most small businesses the initial investment isn't so large. In that case it's ok to create the product or service first, but know you may need to adapt around the market if you want to succeed.

Dan Furman
02-06-2009, 12:12 PM
That to me is the nature of Seth's advice. You're going to be more successful if your product or service is created with marketing in mind.

This I definitely agree with.

vangogh
02-06-2009, 02:00 PM
I thought you might. I understand where you're coming from and I do agree with you. I'm interpreting Seth's advice less about having to plan before you start your business and more that if you build your product or service with marketing in mind you'll be more successful than if you try to attach the marketing to the product or service after the fact.

cbscreative
02-06-2009, 02:11 PM
It really doesn't look like we are disagreeing. If I am seeing Dan's point correctly, he is saying you could have your idea/product first, then begin the marketing. In that sense, the product comes before the marketing, but the marketing still influences or fine tunes the product if you want to be successful. I can certainly understand someone having an idea before ever considering the marketing, but to run with the idea without doing your homework is not a good plan.

Paul Elliott
02-10-2009, 07:24 PM
Any business idea should start with a written Business Plan.

Any BP should include a Marketing Plan.

Any MP, at a minimum, should include an analysis of the product/service, target customer and how to find him or her, competition, and plans to reach and sell to the customer.

It should not only include a Mission Statement but a well-conceived USP.

Additional analysis before ramping up should include market testing.

Of course, a large percentage of business are started with none of this. Is is any wonder that the failure rate of small business start-ups is so high?

A thought that has probably been beaten enough is the new restaurant plan. Should you pick delicious food, outstanding service, or ideal location?

None of them! Your success in the restaurant will be assured only if you have a lot of hungry people!

While the other elements are important, together they are not as important as hungry people.

Paul

greenoak
02-14-2009, 12:54 AM
its so intertwined for me....i cant imagine thinking of the marketing first....we make furniture...people are switching to bigger tvs so we make bigger things to put it on...then market that idea..... times are tough , we have great values , so that comes into the marketing.....
everything grows out of what we are and what is on our minds and our customers minds......guess i dont see it as either or....
ann

vangogh
02-14-2009, 11:52 AM
people are switching to bigger tvs so we make bigger things to put it on

Ann that's exactly the idea of having the marketing come first. You observed the market buying bigger tvs so you make a bigger table. If you approached it from a product first perspective you would have made any table you like and then done your best to convince people that your table is the one for their tv. But since people are buying bigger tvs you'd have a harder time convincing them to buy a small table to sit under the television.

By understanding your market and what it wants you can create products to meet those wants. It makes everything after so much easier.

greenoak
02-14-2009, 11:33 PM
vg....what you said illustrates the whole problem of the antique world....the market has changed drastically, a generational change imho....and the expert advice is to try and educate the new buyers....
my view has been to educate ME about the new buyers....just what you said above...
and i thnk its saved us a few times...where others have stuck to their thing and closed their doors...
but the antique columnists , say over and over,,,,teach the new buyers..
ann

vangogh
02-15-2009, 12:16 PM
my view has been to educate ME about the new buyers

Yep, that's exactly what I'm saying and it sounds like you are doing that which is leading to more success than your competition. I still think it's a good idea to help educate your customers, at least the ones who are interested, but overall if you give people what they want you'll do better than trying to convince them that what you want to sell them is better than what they want to buy.

nealrm
02-15-2009, 12:27 PM
....and the expert advice is to try and educate the new buyers....
This is neither the expert nor the educated advice, this is the advice of snake oil salesmen. Any true expert will tell you to meet the demands of the market.

cbscreative
02-15-2009, 03:08 PM
Ann, it struck me too that insider "experts" would advocate advice that is causing many in your industry to go out of business. I'd say keep going against these experts because they are teaching themselves out of a job. Once their followers are all gone, who will they have left to teach? These may be antiques experts, but they clearly are not marketing experts.

greenoak
02-15-2009, 10:31 PM
i so agree....
guess i should have said the accepted voice of the antique press.....
as so often, the writers and publishers arent actually in the business....they are writers and publishers....going withthe popular ideas...
another wierd thing in the antique world....its so much fun that big porportioins of the members dont have to make any money.its a great sideline .....they just do it for fun ...and with lots of money sometimes...and plenty of time.... so it skews the general practices a lot....very few actually make their living at it...but they are out in the market buying etc..... for their hobby booth or show or whatever....and their money is as good as ours, those of us really needing to make the groceries withthe profits....now that its totally hard times most of those folks are bored and getting out of antiques.....
i gladly share knowledge if someone is interested but mainly i try to fit into what they might like.....and find or make that to sell...
antiques is kind of pure capitalism....suppply and demand....and taking a chance...with no saftey net.... not like the farmers!!!
ann

Paul Elliott
02-19-2009, 06:58 PM
i so agree....
guess i should have said the accepted voice of the antique press.....
as so often, the writers and publishers arent actually in the business....they are writers and publishers....going withthe popular ideas...

Ann, remember that the critics and writers are actually not in the business, for the most part, and their customers are the dealers, so they are telling the dealers what the dealers want to hear. Actually, they are serving their market.


another wierd thing in the antique world....its so much fun that big porportioins of the members dont have to make any money.its a great sideline .....they just do it for fun ...and with lots of money sometimes...and plenty of time.... so it skews the general practices a lot....very few actually make their living at it...but they are out in the market buying etc..... for their hobby booth or show or whatever....and their money is as good as ours, those of us really needing to make the groceries withthe profits....now that its totally hard times most of those folks are bored and getting out of antiques.....

You main task is to be the last store standing, so you will have a ton of customers when everyone else decides to return as things improve.

As other dealers go out of business, customers will travel farther to get to you. Make it a weekend celebration--every weekend--and open a snack bar to take care of their needs for their weekend outing.

Specialize in (brand yourself) with one or more items that are unique and very healthy like buffalo burgers.

Make a deal with a local motel to give conference rates for those traveling and spending 1 or more nights.

Hire a face painter and a balloon artist for the children.

If it's feasible and the need exists, you might put in some RV hookups for the travelers. :D


i gladly share knowledge if someone is interested but mainly i try to fit into what they might like.....and find or make that to sell...
antiques is kind of pure capitalism....suppply and demand....and taking a chance...with no saftey net.... not like the farmers!!!
ann

You're very right! But you also are not restricted like more highly regulated industries, such as farmers.

Sell your customers what they want ... then, you may also be able to sell them what they need. But you must be able satisfy what they want first.

Paul