PDA

View Full Version : Google Changing its ways?



rezzy
02-01-2009, 12:31 AM
Ive read the Google is changing their system to index sites. And are moving to personal searches. Where Google delivers content based on your prior searches. Its an attempt to end all the SEO madness.

Has anyone heard about this?

Patrysha
02-01-2009, 12:48 AM
I don't think it's a way to end SEO but to add a human element to the elevancy of sites that do come up in searches. At least that is my perception...and I could be wrong. I'm not very techy. But I can't see them doing away with the basics.

orion_joel
02-01-2009, 12:49 AM
I believe i read a few posts or articles somewhere that mentioned the way they were ranking hard changed, however this could have been completely unrelated.

I think personal searches could be a potential good thing, however no matter what Google changes and what happens there will be people that will find a way around it or make people believe they have and exploit the potential of the system.

vangogh
02-01-2009, 01:11 AM
Google is constantly changing the way they do things. They're tweaking things daily and making some of those daily tweaks permanent changes. They're always trying to improve their search results.

They started personalizing search a couple of years ago. If you've been searching while logged into any Google product you've been seeing personalized results. They're now offering results based on your search history even if you aren't logged in. It's an effort to present better results to each individual. Whether or not it truly delivers a better experience is another thing. You may also notice that they added two small buttons to the right of each search result. One is to promote the result and one is to delete it. When you promote a result you'll see more results from that site in the future and if you delete it you'll see less.

Search engines and SEOs have always had a complex relationship. In some respects SEOs help create sites, pages, and content that are better suited to what search engines want to see and in other respects they create content aimed at getting pages that may or may not be the most relevant to rank better.

As long as there are search engines there will be SEOs. How SEOs do their work will change, but they won't ever go away unless search presents no useful form of traffic to a website. Google would probably like to see some SEO practices disappear forever and they would be more than happy to see some stay. The best SEO relies on a foundation of creating useful content, which is something search engines are always happy to index and rank.

seolman
02-01-2009, 01:34 AM
You deserve some Rep for that Steve but I haven't spread enough around yet. Well put.

vangogh
02-01-2009, 01:40 AM
Thanks Dave. I know I set the spread the rep pretty high. I didn't want to have people giving it back and forth to each other to raise their reps. That's what ruined the the system on WT.

One thing I didn't mention above about personlized search results. It becomes less meaningful to check your ranking, because the results you see aren't necessarily the same results your customers see. People see different results based on search history, and location. Two people can type the exact same query and the exact same time and see different search results.

seolman
02-01-2009, 01:46 AM
One thing I didn't mention above about personlized search results. It becomes less meaningful to check your ranking, because the results you see aren't necessarily the same results your customers see. People see different results based on search history, and location. Two people can type the exact same query and the exact same time and see different search results.

Do you think that has more to do with Google's multiple data centers or are we talking about same search, same data center, different search profile?

vangogh
02-01-2009, 02:54 AM
It's a combination of all I think. The datacenters have been in play for awhile and personalization added to it. Now the recent search history adds to it some more. More and more we're seeing different results for different people in different locations. It becomes less meaningful to say you rank #3 for a particular phrase since you may not rank there for the same phrase all the time.

We have to start thinking more in terms of how much search traffic we get from different keyword themes and phrases and be less concerned with specific rank for a particular phrase.

seolman
02-01-2009, 03:09 PM
We have to start thinking more in terms of how much search traffic we get from different keyword themes and phrases and be less concerned with specific rank for a particular phrase.

It's an interesting point Steve: "keyword themes". What I always emphasize to my clients and on my blog is honesty. Everything Google seems to do in their constant adjustments is simply try and drill down to reality, i.e. what is this page really all about. When you think about all the issues related to search you can boil it down to just a few simple things:

1) What the person searching for wants to find (we can further break this down into tastes/likes/dislikes/personality traits etc).
2) What the page is truly about (category/theme/classification)
3) How important the page is (i.e. number of votes in terms of relevant links, visitors clicks etc.)

Now, with these new little triggers at the right of each search result, what Google appears to be doing is adding another search control element: tell us which site you think is important or fits your needs. This will no doubt play a role outside what any SEO can control in terms of ranking. That is something Google has been trying to do for some time - get the real SEARCHERS to say what they are looking for and what they prefer, not the people who design or manipulate page content. I'm not sure Google will shape this according to IP simply because they never know who is really sitting at the computer, but they will certainly track how many individual votes a site gets. They may also take this into account in terms of your own google account and build a Google profile for you - but that remains to be seen.

Does this sound right to you?

nealrm
02-01-2009, 03:53 PM
It's a combination of all I think. The datacenters have been in play for awhile and personalization added to it. Now the recent search history adds to it some more. More and more we're seeing different results for different people in different locations. It becomes less meaningful to say you rank #3 for a particular phrase since you may not rank there for the same phrase all the time.

We have to start thinking more in terms of how much search traffic we get from different keyword themes and phrases and be less concerned with specific rank for a particular phrase.

It's going to be hard to separate page rank and search traffic, the two are very closely connected. If Google places a high weight on sites that get the highest clicks from the search engine, then it will basically cement in the status Quo. Simple put the sites listed higher will always get more traffic for the SE than the sites lower down.

I think this is more of a tweak than a major change in direction. Google will factor in your area and past history, sites may gain or loose 2-3 positions based on that but not much more.

vangogh
02-01-2009, 04:08 PM
Everything Google seems to do in their constant adjustments is simply try and drill down to reality, i.e. what is this page really all about.

True as are your three divisions of search. The hard part for search engines is none of those things are necessarily easy. If I type 'bass' am I interested in the guitar of the fish? How can we tell what a page is about when we can't always trust what it's telling us and what's being said about it? Who can really judge what's more important? Important to who? Under what context?

All the personalization is an attempt to answer the above questions for individuals. Some people are interested in the guitar and some in the fish. You can' make that determination from the single query, but from a history of queries you may increase your odds.

Joseph it's true. Better rank leads to more traffic. However I think we have to move beyond looking at a snapshot of the search results and base optimization on that snapshot. Try the same query an hour later and it may be different. Try it from a different computer and it may be different too.

Sure check your rank for trends and continue to improve how your pages rank, but don't get caught up in a need to rank #2 when your last checked showed you at #3.

Ranking is only part of the equation. Ultimately you want sales or leads or some action. You still have to choose keywords that will lead to those actions, etc.

rezzy
02-01-2009, 04:36 PM
I did a quick search on Google and looks like this change was already completed a few years ago. At least, they were talking about 2007, does anyone have any updated resources on this subject?

vangogh
02-02-2009, 12:20 AM
Which change? They've been moving toward personalization in various forms for a couple years now. The search history when logged in has been around awhile. The recent search history when not logged in is very new and the voting up and down search results is relatively new.

rezzy
02-02-2009, 08:24 AM
I got the impression they had already made the move over. The blogs I found were dated a few years ago.

Spider
02-02-2009, 09:15 AM
...All the personalization is an attempt to answer the above questions for individuals. Some people are interested in the guitar and some in the fish. You can' make that determination from the single query, but from a history of queries you may increase your odds... I don't like that, and I wouldn't think it would serve Google. It's too easy to say some people are searching for bass, the guitar, and some for bass, the fish, but what about the people that want the fish one day a the guitar the next. Or the musician who suddenly wants some information about fish because he's been invited on a fishing trip?. Personalisation would mean a deterioration in search results for that person.

vangogh
02-02-2009, 10:52 AM
Frederick I agree with you. I'm not a big fan of it either. I understand Google's dilemma, but when I search I want to a clean set of results and not a set of results that Google is guessing I want to see. I wrote a post about it when personalization first started and I likened it to us all seeing an ever shrinking corner of the web.

On Google's side they don't really change the search results entirely. It's more a tweaking thing so a result you might have seen #7 is now #2. For the search 'bass' you'll probably still see both guitars and fish, but maybe one will show higher based on your past searches.

The recent search thing is a good idea I think. Just because I searched for bass guitars two months ago doesn't mean they should show for a search on 'bass,' but if I've been searching for guitars the last half hour that's probably what I'm looking for when I search 'bass' now.

Business Attorney
02-02-2009, 11:07 AM
I'll play the devil's advocate here. I like the idea of personalization, assuming that the engineers at Google are intelligent enough to implement it well (and I believe that they are).

If I am interested in music and Google interprets my search for bass as meaning the guitar, then it is a fairly simple matter for me to refine my search to what am really looking for by adding the word fish, boat, vocal solos, beer, etc... It's very similar in concept to the localized search features that the search engines have. If I search for pizza restaurants, it is most likely that I am looking for one nearby. If someone is in Chicago and expects a search on the phrase "pizza restaurants" to turn up pizza restaurants in London, then we don't share the same views on what a good search should be. I would not want to use that person's ideal search engine.

vangogh
02-02-2009, 11:16 AM
Good point David. And realistically most people are going to type bass guitar on their own pretty quickly. The issues I don't like about personalization is that Google doesn't make it all that obvious that it's happening and they don't make it obvious how to opt out if you prefer not to have the personalized result.

As for how well they can do it that's another matter. I don't think past results automatically indicate what you're searching for now. The recent search thing makes sense to me, but there's no reason to think that just because a few months ago I was interested in one thing I'm still looking for that same thing today. Bass is a very simple example so it's easy to change the search, but when the searches become more complex it's not as obvious what's happening or what you should change the search to.

My guess is most people will think the results are actually better with personilzation, but they probably won't realize they're now seeing less of what's out there. For example if you keep clicking on results from a particular website that site will rank higher for you. For some maybe that's a good thing. For others it limits the information they see.

The whole thing is a mixed issue for me. I see some good and I see some bad to the system. I'd prefer that Google gave an obvious option on their results page letting us know when personilaztion is being used and when it's not and give an obvious option to turn it on and off.

Also keep in mind that to do personalization Google is keeping a record of all your searches. There are privacy concerns there as well.

Spider
02-02-2009, 06:23 PM
...Also keep in mind that to do personalization Google is keeping a record of all your searches. There are privacy concerns there as well.Absolutely! I didn't mention it before because I have been accused of being paranoid about Google (I don't trust them one bit!) but other SEs store your searches anyway, I'm told. One that doesn't - which is why it is the SE I use all the time - is ixquick.com. I understand they purge their relevant data files daily so no record of your searches are kept.

If you don't like personalization, Ixquick.com is the SE for you.

vangogh
02-02-2009, 08:18 PM
You can opt out of the personalization while logged into Google and I also search without being logged in.

I see the privacy thing from both sides. As an end user I don't like the idea that people are collecting all sorts of info about me. I'm not worried about what they'll find, but there's still something unsettling about the idea. I've resigned myself to the fact that's inevitable. It's where society is headed and I think it gets more and more difficult every day to remain completely outside of it if you want to be part of society.

As a marketer I understand how useful the data can be. Not so much about knowing what an individual searches for, but about knowing the demographics of the whole.

jem
02-04-2009, 09:34 AM
At the end of the day Google is trying to increase the value of the search to the individual.

If they start returning lousy search results people will go somewhere else (although given their brand strength it would have to be pretty dire results). At the end of the day they want to bring you the information you are searching for. I do get worried that doing so will "shrink the web" to whatever google thinks is valid/relevant - but isn't that what happens in all other media? It flies in the face of the free-wheeling, wild west internet of the 90's but maybe that is the inevitable fate (thats waaaaaayyy to deep with only 2 cups of coffee in the system)

I'm with vangogh on the privacy thing when I go into gmail I see adwords based on the text in my email - they claim they don't keep that kind of info permanently (at least last I checked) but it's still worrying.

Google are masters at tweaking, testing, tweaking and they have a big enough test area that they can get valid results (unlike my postcard marketing!) - so I am *hoping* that they get it more right than wrong. BTW I've heard they are pretty open to engaging in conversation - and they take into account what people say (2nd hand info never approached them directly but know somebody who has) so maybe we should gang together and start "guiding" them....now there's a thought

Simon

vangogh
02-04-2009, 10:07 AM
Simon I think Google (and the other search engines) anonymize your searches by stripping off the last or last two octets from your IP, theoretically making you unidentifiable. However if anyone remembers a few years ago when AOL inadvertently released some search data, the New York Times was able to track down one woman through her searches. There was no identifiable information associated with the data, but simply seeing all the searches one person performed they were able to figure out who she was in under 24 hours.

rezzy
02-04-2009, 10:12 AM
There was no identifiable information associated with the data, but simply seeing all the searches one person performed they were able to figure out who she was in under 24 hours.

Wow, thats scary. I know nothing on the internet is untraceable. How safe is Chromes incognito window? Is it using a proxy?

I havent done any research into it yet.

phanio
02-04-2009, 10:29 AM
I would like personalized searchs as long it get me the information I want quickly - but I don't like to be marketed too based on my searches. I would assume that personalized marketing will follow - as stated above within their gmail account.

However, I have conducted search for one thing and then found information for something totally different that I ended up using. That is the part I like about random results. But, I think I would prefer a search engine to already knowing what I want before I begin typing anything. Would save a lot of time in correcting my type-os.

What ever happen to just typing in a url in address bar? That is really taking a user to the site they want. Is this still increasing in use or is this what google and others are attempting to by-pass?

vangogh
02-04-2009, 10:39 AM
I think I would prefer a search engine to already knowing what I want before I begin typing anything.

That's what they're trying to get after. And again I have no problem with them using personalized search as long as they make it clear and obvious how to turn it on and off and opt in and out of the system.

I also like the discovery process of search. It has led to me a lot of new thoughts that I wouldn't have had otherwise.

One thing about getting better results is if we all become better searchers we also get better results. I'd just as soon see Google and the other engines help people search better. I doubt most people are aware of all the advanced search options that exist.

jem
02-04-2009, 01:04 PM
Agggghhhh...you mean people can find out about my baked bean fetish...the end of the world is upon me!!!!!!!

rezzy
02-04-2009, 02:05 PM
Steve, I think you make an important point. Google is trying to make searches easier for the masses by returning the information they want.

How often do people even click "advanced search"? They simply use whats in front of them and without adding modifiers like "+"and "-", they search business forums. Google is one of the most powerful search engines to be known and people cant use it to its potential because they dont know how to use it.

Thats what I think the personal search is fixing. Helping to close the loop in searches, who goes beyond the 2nd page of a search too. Google really could stop displaying results past the 2nd or 3rd page because 1% of people will that far.

seolman
02-04-2009, 08:10 PM
I'm not afraid of people knowing some basic information about me. I just get nervous when it goes too far.

It used to be when we would go down to the corner store the local grocer stocked our favorite brands for us. I don't mind that kind of information gathering by retailers just trying to provide me a better service.

Problems arise when data is managed by irresponsible people and the unscrupulous get their hands on it - OR - our own private data is used against us.

Our DNA info can make us virtually un-insurable for certain diseases. Identity theft is already happening. Thieves can intercept travel data and know when we're not home to break onto our homes or businesses. Many persons with identical names are routinely denied seats on airplanes because the system can't properly differentiate between who the real John Doe is etc.

A long list of additional personal hassles and risks can be drafted up from what is already being done with our personal information.

billbenson
02-05-2009, 01:36 AM
Which is why I don't use accurate information on the web unless necessary. For many people here you really have to to create trust in growing your business. Web designers are probably a good example of that. I don't put my real name or birth date in the database and I use a throwaway email. If someone wanted to do some digging, they could still find out who I am though.

In my case, I use forums for information exchange and networking, not really for marketing my services. The same is true for my web sites. I don't really need to put my real name on my web site.

email is a different thing though. When I cut over to a business relationship, I cut over to a email that is real and a signature in the email with accurate information. At that point it is required for a trust factor.

I do find that the google searches are convenient with the trend matching. I don't like the big brother or potentially fraud aspects of it, but that seems pretty unlikely. VG's example of a search for bass (the fish or the musical instrument?) was a good example. I really don't search for much that I would want to hide. I'm sure there are people that do though. Adult, racial stuff, or searches at work for that matter looking for jobs?

And as was said above I believe; A lot of webmasters, myself included try to collect customer information. It helps us profile our customer base and improve sales. It's a little hypocritical to accuse Google when I am doing the same thing on a much smaller scale.

Spider
02-05-2009, 09:40 AM
It's all very well putting out less-then-accurate information to protect oneself from criminals and other nasty types, but that inaccurate information can come back to haunt you. A potential client comes to you via that inaccurate information, then hears a different story and you lose credibility and possibly lose the client.

That inaccurate information could also result in a potential client passing you by because you don't appear to be quite what they are looking for. Also, inaccurate information could attract people who are not a good fit for you and, either you waste a lot of time disqualifying them or they turn out to be troublesome clients.

I take the line of only giving out accurate information but limiting the information so that the full story is not available in any one place. Plus, totally witholding a few key pieces of information. If you appear to be hiding something, people will easily assume you have something to hide. That might repel potential clients and attract potential thieves. I feel that if one appears to have nothing to hide, one appears to have nothing to steal, at the same time encouraging trust from potential clients.

That's the route I have chosen to take, anyway. As Geraldine used to say, "What you see is what you get!"

billbenson
02-05-2009, 12:25 PM
But, as I suggested with the web designer example, you are here selling as well as on your web site. I'm not in that situation. Many people here such as yourself are. You are selling your personal service and expertise. My website trys to make me look larger than life. A big company. My picture on my site would add 0 sales to my product line. It's a "depends" situation. I also don't lie about it. I say Bill Benson isn't my real name for the reasons stated.

Spider
02-06-2009, 08:45 AM
Seems like Yahoo is heading in the same direction as Google --

From WebProNews: I spoke with some people from Yahoo including Tom Chi, Senior Director of Product Management for Yahoo Search, about the new feature, Search Pad. Essentially, it keeps track of your searches, figures out when you are researching things, & stores results of interest in a virtual notepad you can use for reference.

Will Yahoo use any of the data collected for any reason other than to deliver this feature? ---
Yahoo! will anonymize user log data within 90 days with limited exceptions for fraud, security and legal obligations. Yahoo! will also expand the policy to apply not only to search log data but also page views, page clicks, ad views and ad clicks."

You guys in the industry probably know this already but I post it for the others.