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Spider
01-31-2009, 12:11 PM
Whether webpages are coded using css or tables, the menu is most often the lefthand column (after the banner/header) and the content is the second column. Although the code (css and tables) can have the second column appear higher in the code than the first colum, usually they are not, I think. So the SE spiders "read" the menu first before they "read" the content.

Q: To what extent do you think the wording of the menu affects SE results positioning? I mean, if the site's focus is broad so that many subjects appear in the menu but the content column of the page is narrowly focused, does the very diverse nature of the menu destroy the focused nature of the keywords in the second column?

Likewise to the opposite - if the site itself is very focussed so that the menu column is focussed and keyword-dense, does this help the content column keywords in search result positioning, Or might it harm positioning because the menu could be contrued as keyword stuffing (there being nothing there but keywords)?

vangogh
01-31-2009, 12:32 PM
Two main points about menus. The first is the make sure the links are crawlable. That means no Flash menu, javascript, etc. The links should be standard html. If you do want to use a menu that's not 100% html create a second menu (in your footer?) for spiders.

As for the text yes it does play a part. Links in general are an important part of ranking and internal links are still links. They probably don't carry as much weight as an external link, but they do count.

The anchor text (the clickable words in the link) are a very important part of the effect of links. Those words are telling people and search engines what the page being linked to is about.

You should always write the text in menu links for real people first, but it's a good idea to get in keywords if you can. Don't obsess over trying to get in extra words. Too many keywords will confuse real people and possibly look spammy to search engines.

The main navigation on your site is generally going to be the same across all pages and the links will usually point to main section pages. Think about the one or two main words that define that section and use that for the link text. Try to make those words keywords if possible, but again don't use keywords at the expense of real people. You should be able to find words that real people find useful and are also used as keywords in search queries.

Frederick search a little for 'keyword theming' of 'keyword siloing' or similar. There are quite a few articles that will go into things a little deeper than I have here. They'll talk about how to structure your content so each page naturally reinforces keywords themes through each section of your site.

seolman
01-31-2009, 12:54 PM
There are theories regarding having the "first word in the paragraph be your major keyword" etc. I think Vangogh would agree with me here that these types of theories are dated and the real key is to be balanced in your approach to using keywords in your text, page titles, alt attributes and of course incoming links to the page in question.

Having said that I have noted some differences as regards where keywords are placed. If you put all of them in the last paragraph on the page, chances are that page is not going to do as well as a page where the keyword appears within the text in a natural fashion say within an introductory paragraph, within the body of the text and in a concluding paragraph as an example (this is a very rough example but you get the idea).

There are tricks to making the left menu div appear after the <body> div on the page and not have it affect the layout. If you do this the spider will read the body text before the menu text and this has made a difference in our SEO results.

nealrm
01-31-2009, 02:39 PM
The spider give more weight to wording at the top of the page than at the bottom. But as Vangough and Seolman stated, this does not mean placing it as the 1st word of the paragraph. The spiders also give preference to wording within the 'H' tags (<h1>,<h2>...), and text the is bold.

The anchor text on internal linking is treated somewhat similar to external links. So you want the wording to generally match the site's focus. Example: for a real estate site a menu item with the anchor text of "Luxury Homes" would help, the same link with the anchor text of "Luxury" would not.

Last, broadly focused sites do not generally place well in the engines. The keywords tend to get watered down because of all the other content.

Last: Design for humans first, spiders second

cbscreative
01-31-2009, 03:55 PM
As you indicated above, CSS can be used to push the body content above the navigation. In my experience, this does help, but as we have discussed on other threads with this topic, it is a number of factors working together. Coding the page to push the content to the top of the code will most likely provide a slight boost, but as seolman pointed out, doing your page titles, h tags, alt attributes, inbound links, etc. will combine together to give more than any of these things can do on their own.

I would add strong agreement with humans first. Google also looks at how users respond to your page. If they stick around and open other pages, it helps show relevance and they reward you for this.

Spider
01-31-2009, 04:53 PM
You can push the content above the navigation using tables, too. But I'd like to know whether the menu items, being all keywords or keyphrases and nothing else, would appear as keyword stuffing to the SE spider.

What do you think?

vangogh
01-31-2009, 05:19 PM
I think it would depend a little on the specific. If your navigation is just a list of keywords then maybe it would appear spammy, but in general you should be fine using a keyword or keyphrase in the navigation.

Using your site as an example I see a number of links in the menu with the word 'coaching' in them



An Inquiry about Coaching
Coaching Home Businesses
Service Company Coaching
Coaching Tim, Irina, others
Coaching Galadriel
Coaching Styles
Coaching Articles


If 'coaching' is a keyword theme you wanted to rank better for what you might do is create a section of the site called 'coaching' or maybe 'business coaching' or some phrase that describes the whole section. You might then write a single page to serve as the main page of the section and place all of the above pages in that section.

When someone enters the section they would see a secondary navigation that included all the links above. Each is on a different topic all within the coaching theme. Because of the secondary navigation and any links between pages in the section the main theme of 'coaching' is consistently reinforced.

Your individual pages would be optimized for long keyphrases, those with less competition so they wouldn't need too many links to rank well for the longer phrase. Because they all link back up through the section to the main 'coaching' section page they help that page rank for more competitive phrases like 'business coaching' and perhaps even the singular 'coaching' Your links would naturally be including the main keyword theme in the anchor text of links within the section.

What I'm describing above is keyword theming or siloing.

Coaching was just one example. You might also organize your content around different keywords or phrases. In which case many of the coaching articles would find their way into different sections.

Having said all of the above you should still organize your information how it would be best for real people. Getting back to your original question it's fine to use keywords in link text, but make sure the links read well to real people. If you created a link with the text.

Coaches, coaching, business coaching, small business coaching

then it's going to look spammy to real people and likely search spiders too. But having one link be

Small Business Coaching

makes sense both for people and spiders and will likely help you with both.

Spider
01-31-2009, 06:22 PM
Good. Thanks again, VG. I think I'm doing what you described in part - I have five main sections and it's only on the Home page that each sections' pages are all listed and linked in the Menu. Within each section all pages of that section are linked but only the header page of other sections are linked.

The theme you described is pretty much how I have broken it up - Coaching (overall) with Business (section), Life (section) and Wealth (section) plus General and Aboutus.

See! I'm learning a lot listening to you guys.

Thanks ever so.

billbenson
01-31-2009, 09:58 PM
Frederick, a couple of comments in addition to what others have said. I'm assuming your coaching site is your main site. You really should put it on a real domain, not an earthlink domain.

The other thing, that is more consistant with this thread is you have a number of headings in your navigation in the left column. You have them italicized, but don't use heading tags. I think it would be a good idea to use a heading tag for those. H3 maybe and use H2's for your body headings. That way you could also cut down on the usage of the word "coaching" in your anchor text, which may be a little bit overused.

You didn't ask for a site review, so I'll leave it at that, but that's how I would approach things.

Spider
02-01-2009, 12:11 AM
Bill, Thanks - I appreciate any comments and advice offered and do heed that advice whenever possible. The three points you raised are done for a reason. That might not be very good reason, so I invite your further comment, but this is why I did what I did in these three cases--

1. "real" domain - I have the real domain, frederickpearce.com. That is the domain I give out, anchortext, businesscards, etc. It forwards to the shared Earthlink server. Of course, large companies and really large websites might have dedicated servers, but I believe it is well enough known nowadays that the vast majority of sites are hosted on shared servers. If I was doing business under a company name, I would have (and did have in the past) a commercial Earthlink site. But now I do business under my own personal name so a personal Earthlink host is not unusual. And it would be the same piece of Earthlink's server in either case. In this case, I do not believe it makes any difference, although I am ready to be corrected on that. (If it was a geocities account, I'd agree with you.)

2. the italicized navigation headings - I removed the tags <H4> because these leave too large a gap between the heading and the following text. This placed the heading closer to the previous links than to the following links. Which meant an additional <BR> was needed above the heading to associate the heading with the following text rather than the preceding text. People first, SE second, right? It created a very spaced out menu. I think the compact one I have now looks better, but that meant sacrificing the header tags. I am ready to be corrected on that, too.

3. "coaching" - Is the word really overused in the navigation column? I was thinking of increasing it, not reducing it. Right now, in the Business section only 3 of the 8 anchortext phrases contain the word "coaching." Of the entire Menu, only 9 of 31 anchortext phrases contain the word "coaching." And they are all different 'types' of coaching. Is that really excessive?

4. Following on from #3, you may not have noticed that the little marker boxes (bullets) are made with a tiny image that give me the facility for 31 alt-tags. In these 31 alt-tags are 14 more instances of "coaching" and another 14 instances of "coach" and I was thinking this might be excessive. What do you think?

seolman
02-01-2009, 12:24 AM
Frederick - I wouldn't even add an "alt" attribute to a bullet tag. While technically the bullet may be an image, it really doesn't represent an image the visitor is using to educate themselves about your product or service.

The purpose of the "alt" attribute is to provide "alternative" text in cases where either the images are not available to the browser, or the user chooses not to download the images. In either of these cases, in place of the image a box appears with a short description of what the image would have contained. If your little bullets were to contain an "alt" attribute the best alt description to put would be "bullet".

Better to have a few real images on the page and put some real alt descriptions where possible. Anything else is considered SE spamming.

vangogh
02-01-2009, 12:53 AM
1. With your domain I'd still think it better to not host on earthlink. If I arrive at a site and see it's on free hosting it gives an impression that might not be best. Questions might arise such as why can't this site afford a few dollars a month for hosting? Is this a real business or a hobby? I think a domain that sits on it's own hosting account sends a more professional message. I think the same is true of email addresses. Anyone in business should use something@domain.com instead of using an email through google or yahoo or any of the usual emails.

2. Now that you're learning css you'll be able to close up that space even while using a heading. The trick is in setting the margins for the elements you want to use. All html elements will have default styles. Each of your headings will have default margins associated with it. So the first thing you want to do is set the margin-bottom of the heading.

In your case:

h4 {margin-bottom: 0}

There's one more step. The space vertical space between two elements is the larger of the margin-bottom of the element on top and the margin-top of the element below. You'll need to change the margin-top of the element that's just below your heading.

Since you have menu links under the heading I would use a list for the menu links. Your html would look like:



<h4>Menu Heading</h4>
<ul>
<li>Menu item 1</li>
<li>Menu item 2</li>
<li>Menu item 3</li>
</ul>


And your css would become:

h4 {margin-bottom: 0}
ul {margin-top: 5px}

I used 5px just to give it a little space, but you could use 0 or any value you want. The trick is you have to set the margin for both elements, h4 and ul in the example above.

3. I don't think the word coaching is overused since that's what you do. It makes sense for you to use the word a lot. I'd have one of the main category of links be "Coaching' though and group all the coaching related menu links under that category.

4. On a bullet image I'd probably use alt="" Leaving it blank helps screen readers skip over it. There's certainly no reason place any text on a bullet point image. If you try to add keywords in there it's really keyword stuffing. The most you could put in there would be alt="bullet point image"

billbenson
02-01-2009, 07:08 AM
Frederick, to me an earthlink url says "amature" just like a free web host. Some of your clients may not notice, but if you have web savvy clients, they may. Your frederickpearce.com is probably on a shared server anyway, so the forwarding serves little purpose. Personally, I'd use something that gets the word coaching in the url. Not critical (see the thread on every little bits helps in seo). If your name is well enough known, it may be a good url. Earthlink isn't a good approach though, in my opinion.

The gap in the H4 can be removed or controled via css. If this is the only css you use, you can do it in line on the page. It would allow you to control the spacing for the H4 if that is what you want to use. What the heading tag really does is say to Google "hey, the following stuff is important". Italics are good, but they really say "this is important" referring to the words in italics. There is absolutely no reason you can't use both the H4 and italics. I would go back to the heading tag though and just adjust it with css. Here is a link on how to do that: Manipulating Space with CSS | O'Reilly Media (http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/javascript/2004/09/21/CSSCookbook.html)

Your item 3, I think the word coaching is over used. It may not hurt you, but it may not help you either. I think the heading tag is a better approach.

I didn't look, but if all your bullet images are using the same alt description and its "coaching" the page would start looking pretty spammy to me if I was a search engine. You really don't want to do keyword stuffing, and at that point, that's really what you are doing. If for some reason your site got a manual review (yes they do that on competitor complaints etc.) it would come across that way.

Use the alt for things like describing you. Frederick in the office. If somewhere on the page you have the phrase "coach frederick", Google will probably associate the two terms. You don't need to use the word coach over and over again.

At least that is the way I do it. Hope that helps.

Just noticed that VG and Seolman snuck in a post before me. The above is still how I would approach it.

vangogh
02-01-2009, 10:39 AM
I guess we were all posting about the same time. Bill I agree with almost everything you say. I don't think coaching is used too much in the menu, because that is what Frederick does. He's going to use that word a lot as part of his site. Otherwise I think we agree on all the other points.

Spider
02-01-2009, 11:15 AM
Frederick - I wouldn't even add an "alt" attribute to a bullet tag. ...considered SE spamming.Is it, indeed?! Well, I don't want to do that. I will remove them, forthwith!

Thanks to all.

Spider
02-01-2009, 11:35 AM
Re: the earthlink url - it's not a free account, and any additional cost to make frederickpearce.com appear as the address would be minimal. I just didn't figure it would make any difference as I am putting myself forward as the "product" on offer. But I take your expert advice seriously, so let me ask one more thing on this -

You guys are dealing with companies, commercial enterprises - even if it's John Hancock - it's John Hancock, Inc. Although I am dealing with businesses, they are small businesses, mostly one-person businesses, and I am working on a very personal level. Do you think the commercial stance you are recommending is appropriate in my case? I think my target client doesn't want to deal with a commercial Business Consultant and would prefer to deal with a personal business coach. In fact, although I use 'coach' and 'coaching' a lot around the site, that is because the term is more recognizable than 'mentor.' I do generally style myself as a business mentor. (and describe the difference on the site.)

Might the more formal, more businesslike, company-type url be a handicap in this case? Like I said, if this was a geocities url, I would have already made the switch, but as an earthlink url, I'm not sure.


Added: I will start my css education with seeing what can be done about the space and reintroducing the H-tag. Thank you.

vangogh
02-01-2009, 02:01 PM
I can see where you're coming from with the being more personal idea. I don't think anyone would think it less personal if your site was on frederickpearce.com The fact that you're using your name instead of a company name makes it seem personal to me.

What I think will happen, even if Earthlink, isn't free it may be interpreted that way. Not everyone will interpret it that way, but a few probably will so why give the impression even to those few.

I've always thought it looks more professional to have the domain site on your own hosting. I don't think it will make the site less personal in anyone's mind. You can make it more personal in the copy, which I think you already do by saying coach instead of mentor. You're right coach is the more personal term even if mentor is the more technically correct one.

When I redid my site last year coming across more personal was one of my goals. In the design I tried using brighter and hopefully friendlier colors. I stopped referring to myself in the third person by company name and instead use "I" and "me" a lot more. I also added more personal information to my about page. I think things like that make the site warmer and friendlier and more personal even though the site sits on a domain that's my company name.

billbenson
02-01-2009, 05:49 PM
I agree with VG on the domain. You still want to portray yourself as a professional. The earthlink domain echo's "hobby site" to me which isn't what you are trying to accomplish either. I assumed it was a free domain that came with your earthlink subscription. It seems like others here did as well.

A good analogy which you don't want to do either is use a free email address ie earthlink, hotmail, yahoo etc. I assume you use earthlink so you have a couple of free emails there.

When I get an email from a free email account it sends up a flag. Nigerian frauds tend to use yahoo emails for whatever reason. If its not that, it says to me it's going to be a small order, or is a mom and pop operation. If I get an email from somebodyATge.com (I used the AT so it didn't turn into a link) I try to get the quote out asap. If it's from bob654ATyahoo.com it goes to the bottom of the priority list.

There are a lot of small operations that post on this forum. Many of them have paid to have a website developed or have done it themselves. I'm a one man show! I just happen to come from both a sales and technical background so it was kind of natural for me to try to pick up web design and marketing. Many of these small business owners are going to look at the earthlink domain and get a negative impression IMO.

Spider
02-02-2009, 09:23 PM
Okay. I give in! I am now hosted as frederickpearce.com (http://frederickpearce.com)

And (following on from the other thread) I am deleting my inadvertent keyword stuffing in the menu.

Ah! Such virtue!

billbenson
02-02-2009, 10:12 PM
Did you do a 301 redirect from the old domain? If not, you should. That way, anybody that goes to the old domain will land on the new one. It will also avoid any duplicate content problems on the two domains.

If you don't already have one, on the old site create a file called .htaccess in your root directory. Just use notepad. Put the following line of code in there and anybody going to the old site should end up on the new site.

Hmm, the forum changed the code so here is a link on how to do it:

http://www.tamingthebeast.net/articles3/spiders-301-redirect.htm

vangogh
02-03-2009, 01:30 AM
Definitely looks more professional. It's also easier to remember and type since you don't have the earthlink part to deal with.

Bill is right about the 301 (permanent) redirects too. That will tell search engines that the page has moved and everything should be transferred to the new URLs. You'll want to hold onto the old domain for awhile even of you aren't using it.

billbenson
02-03-2009, 04:05 AM
VG, is there a way to post code? I posted a one line htaccess and because it had a url, the forum software modified it. I didn't try the quote tag but I suspect the same thing would happen.

Spider
02-03-2009, 09:15 AM
Thanks, Bill and VG. Can't use the 301 - at least, I don't think I can. I have other personal material at Earthlink that would be out-of-place at the new location - my house is a certified wildlife habitat and I have that on display, plus some other local data. That material will remain at Earthlink.

I have uploaded most of the coaching business pages to the new host and plan to change all the old coaching pages to "This page has moved" with an on-page link to the respective new page. I presume, because the old page will contain no business or coaching keywords, it will slowly sink down the charts while the new pages will slowly rise.

Good plan?

vangogh
02-03-2009, 12:53 PM
You can redirect specific pages and not the whole site if you want. It doesn't have to be all or nothing. First map out the old URLs to the new URLs and then set up the redirection. Each redirect will basically look the same with the exception of the different URLs on each line.

Spider
02-03-2009, 01:39 PM
Amazing stuff, this - eh?! Thanks yet again.

vangogh
02-03-2009, 06:13 PM
Bill I would think you could post code. Try using the code tag and if that doesn't work just put a space between the http:// www and .domain.com. I think that will work.

As long as you add the occasional space vBulletin won't turn anything into a link.

billbenson
02-04-2009, 12:31 AM
You know what, I didn't go to the advanced post where the code tag options is. Your right, it probably would have worked there.

Spider
02-07-2009, 11:21 AM
I've been thinking about the menu headings discussion above and I have a question.

Your recommendation to use heading tags (h4, h3) were because Google (and others, probably) give greater weight to words so tagged. That is fine if the words in the headings are keywords. But it doesn't necessarily follow that the headings are keywords, right?

In my case, the menu headings follow my site slogan, "Building businesses, building lives, building wealth," dividing my pages in three departments, but these are not terms likely to be searched for and, therefore, not keywords. Highlighting them in H3 tags and thus making keywords of them, would dilute the real keywords of the page and thus be counter-productive, wouldn't they?

What do you think?

cbscreative
02-07-2009, 11:54 AM
To my knowledge, keyword weight is applied mostly to h1 and h2, and the rest have very little weight. Many designers, myself included, use the rest to format text for different purposes. For example, h6 is often used for footer navigation or copyright notices.

billbenson
02-07-2009, 02:04 PM
I don't really agree you you on this one cb steve. I think all h tags have value if used properly.

As you can see Frederick, there are differences of opinions, so yout need to evaluate the info and make you own decision. Here is my opinion:

Take your section in the menu "Building Businesses" Change it to "Coaching builds business" - just an example, I haven't thought this through thoroughly.

Don't use coaching in the links below that heading unless they really fit the link. Some form of building businesses is appropriate in every link but don't be redundant. Business consulataion could be a good link below that. I'd probably use an h3 as I would reserve h1 and h2 for the body section.

Your next section "building lives" Why not "improve your life through personal coaching"?

Somewhere on your site have "improving lives and business through personal coaching will ..." Google will figure out that there is an attachment between building lives and the word Coaching.

That's how I would approach it.

cbscreative
02-07-2009, 02:55 PM
Perhaps if I rephrased "very little weight" to say "less weight" we would be in agreement. Your examples are consistent with the way I use the tags too. Although there are times when I use h3 in the body text, I frequently use h3-h5 in navigation. I do believe h1 and h2 are best reserved for body content headings.

Spider
02-08-2009, 12:16 AM
Great! Thank you - for your time and your advice.