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IADS
08-11-2013, 07:58 PM
There is an effort going around to get businesses and municipalities to hire ex-cons. One of their programs is called Ban The Box, referring to the box on job applications asking about past criminal offenses. Do you think that a person with a past, but has completed their prison term, finished their parole/probation on good terms should get a second chance to re-enter society with a clean slate? Would you hire them in your business?

vangogh
08-12-2013, 04:35 PM
Yes I think people deserve second chances in life. Granted they're going to have to carry the weight of their prior actions with them, but they deserve a second chance. I wouldn't have a problem hiring someone who'd been in prison assuming they met the qualifications for the job. Fair or not it might take them a little longer than usual to earn my trust, given their past history, so I suppose the slate wouldn't be 100% clean. However, I wouldn't turn the person away and I would give the person a chance.

Freelancier
08-12-2013, 04:43 PM
Ex-cons seem like the fruit at the top of the tree, not the low-hanging fruit.

Some of the ways companies will weed out people:

1. Facebook postings that aren't 100% professional. Party on... but don't share it.
2. Lower credit scores, regardless of cause (like divorce)
3. Arrest (not even conviction, just having been arrested leaves a paper trail for companies to find and use as a factor in whether to hire you)
4. Drug tests for recreational drugs that are not 100% accurate (lots of false positives)
5. Not having a job already

Ex-cons? Can you imagine a company that employs all of the above to weed out those who have NOT done time even thinking about an ex-con?

Fulcrum
08-12-2013, 05:01 PM
I think the conviction issue should depend on what the conviction was for and what type of job/position the former convict is applying for. For example - a wall street banker convicted of fraud should not be allowed to re-enter the financial industry.

Harold Mansfield
08-12-2013, 05:43 PM
Personally, I think it's BS that people pay their debt to society, and then are still punished for it for the rest of their lives. They expect cons to have learned their lesson and take their punishment, but society never lets them live it down.

That being said, I agree with the above statement. I do agree that some crimes demand that the person never be allowed to get in position to commit them again. No one wants a convicted Wall Street crook running a bank ( even though non convicted ones become Governor of Ohio), just like no one wants a convicted child molester driving a school bus or running a grade school gym class.

Is that fair given my previous statement? Probably not. But we still need to be honest that prisons are not rehabilitation and education facilities.

Fulcrum
08-12-2013, 07:28 PM
There is a difference, though, between paying a debt (in this case serving a prison sentence) and reaping the long term consequences of one's actions. I don't know if many/most of the ex-cons are treated the same way as in the movies, but if they are than the employers need to change their attitudes - especially if the employee is showing/proving he/she is trying to change.

billbenson
08-12-2013, 07:54 PM
The problem with ex cons is they leave friquently with the same set of ethics that put them in jail in the first place. A couple of years ago I had my driveway re coated with a decorative rock finish. When it started coming up, I did some research and found the guy on G 'mugshots'.

I'm all for giving people a second chance. But you need to protect yourself as well.

Harold Mansfield
08-12-2013, 08:58 PM
The problem with ex cons is they leave friquently with the same set of ethics that put them in jail in the first place.

Or worse. Many come out with better criminal skills than they went in with.

You have to REALLY want to change in prison, and it's still hard..especially in State or Max Security prisons because your first priority is staying alive. Hard to concentrate on getting your GED or learning something when most of your time is spent watching your back.

I can respect anyone that makes out and really wants to do something with their lives. Cause it ain't no joke in there. It's hell.

But, due diligence is smart no matter who you hire. Plenty of nice, cute, sexy secretaries with no criminal records have embezzled a company dry while everyone was busy trying to get her drunk at the Friday happy hour.

I hired a guy years ago when I was a bar manager who had just gotten out of a 2 year stretch for a drug related conviction, and was still on parole. Hired him in the kitchen and he did great without ever complaining. Actually ended up going through the company training program to be a Sous Chef. Good guy.

I also hired a few guys to work security at a nightclub who had records. (at THAT club, I needed guys like that.)

Never had a problem. On the flip side, I've known a few guys that did a few years and I wouldn't let them hold my iPod unless it was chained to the foundation of a building with an armed guard standing by.

Like with anything, it depends on the person. People make mistakes, and people do mature and change.

IADS
08-13-2013, 12:55 AM
On this note, how do we/you look at a person and tell if they are worth giving that second chance? :confused:

Brian Altenhofel
08-13-2013, 09:57 AM
You have to REALLY want to change in prison

This.

And then you have people that want to stay in prison because they're afraid they won't be able to get a job and will end up homeless once they get out. There's a couple of minimum security prisons and work centers around here that have regular "escapes", and many of those "escapes" happen when the inmate is informed that they'll be getting out in a few weeks.

I'd have no problem hiring someone who spent time in prison, especially if their skills that landed them there can transfer into the "good" side of the law. For example, a network security professional might be a good role for someone who did time for unauthorized access to a well-secured system, or sales might be a good role for someone who did time for dealing drugs.

I know several successful businessmen that, if you didn't dig into their past, you'd never know were felons or even went to prison. Some of them even get constant accolades from their communities.

And shoot, there's a lot of things that I personally believe shouldn't be a crime and that someone shouldn't ever go to prison for...

Whether prosecuted or not, the average American commits three felonies a day. (If you're reading this at work while on the clock and your employer's AUP only authorizes business-related Internet usage, you just committed one. If your employer requests passwords for your social media accounts and you provide them, you also commit a felony.)

KristineS
08-13-2013, 12:54 PM
I think a lot depends on the person. People make mistakes and do stupid things. Some people figure out they were idiots, do their time and make good on what they can fix and come out better prepared to live a good life. Other people don't. I've worked with people who had been in jail and who were good workers and good people. I've worked with people who haven't ever been in jail and I wouldn't trust them as far as I could throw them. It comes down to the person and somewhat to gut instinct.

Wozcreative
08-13-2013, 01:25 PM
It all depends on the business, tasks, the person, etc.
I would be open to giving someone second chances.

billbenson
08-13-2013, 01:58 PM
You really have to look at the situation. And I think you really should try to hire these people, because if somebody doesn't they have no choice in many cases but to recommit crimes.

They probably aren't going to be starting their own business or legitimate ones. I would think you could come up with a short list of crimes you want to stay away from; say fraud, internal theft etc.

There are also impulse crimes. If someone hit me, I could walk away from it. If they hit my wife, I'd be in jail for assault.

Point being, I think it's your public duty to try to find a place for these people as long as you have a way of protecting yourself. If it were a business where the ex con is handling money, I'd put up cameras everywhere. I think that's a good idea in general. But give them a chance while protecting yourself if you can.

PayForWords
08-14-2013, 05:27 AM
Depends. What kind of character do they have? What is your first impression?

What's the charge? What's the position? Too many factors to say.

All in all though, everyone makes mistakes. Some make mistakes that land them in jail/prison.

Does that make us any better than them? No...

I'm sure everyone on here HAS done something that COULD have landed them in jail/prison.

The difference is. They got caught. Big deal.

Business Attorney
08-14-2013, 07:47 PM
The original question is whether the person who has completed his sentence and parole period on good terms should start with a clean slate. While I do think people should give former convicts a chance, to the clean slate question, I say no. Someone's past is part of the whole picture. Just as if someone who got fired from three jobs in 10 years can't hide that period on his resume and has to be ready to explain why it is not relevant to his next employer, someone who has a criminal past needs to explain why it is not relevant to his next job.

If someone was convicted for embezzlement, I would never hire them for an accounting job. Part of paying for their mistake might mean that they have to use different skills and talents than the ones that landed them in prison.

People can change but study after study have shown that the penal system does not do a good job of rehabilitating people. Recidivism is extremely high. To assume that just because someone has served his time, he is automatically one of the minority that are truly rehabilitated makes no sense to me.

We need to find decent jobs for ex-cons that lets them get back into society and re-establish themselves. But hiding the past rather than understanding and accepting it are two very different things.

vangogh
08-15-2013, 01:17 AM
That's a good point. I do think the person should be honest about their past. They were convicted of a crime and it's fair to use that information in the decision to hire them. I do think people deserve second chances though. The whole really depends a lot on the details. What were they convicted for doing? What kind of job are they applying for? To me this issue is about not automatically deciding you won't hire someone because of their past. You should consider their past, but it shouldn't be the only factor in the decision.

billbenson
08-15-2013, 02:17 AM
I think david described what most of us have been saying really well (go figure, he'he's an attorney :) ).

The bottom line is you don't want to put them into a position where they can redo a crime that affects you. They have to earn that right back. David's example of of embezzlement fits that example perfectly. That can really hurt you in the wallet.

I had a friend in college that smoked a few joints on his way to school every morning. He graduated with something like a 3.8. Out of college he went to work for a military contractor, so he probably had to quit that habit. If he didn't, and I needed someone with his skill set I'd hire him (assuming drug testing laws didn't prevent me from doing so).

PayForWords
08-15-2013, 05:40 AM
I think david described what most of us have been saying really well (go figure, he'he's an attorney :) ).

The bottom line is you don't want to put them into a position where they can redo a crime that affects you. They have to earn that right back. David's example of of embezzlement fits that example perfectly. That can really hurt you in the wallet.

I had a friend in college that smoked a few joints on his way to school every morning. He graduated with something like a 3.8. Out of college he went to work for a military contractor, so he probably had to quit that habit. If he didn't, and I needed someone with his skill set I'd hire him (assuming drug testing laws didn't prevent me from doing so).


Good example. As I stated above, everyone on this forum has PROBABLY done something that...


Could have gave them a record, landed them in jail, or put them in prison.


I wouldn't hire someone with a charge of prescription fraud to work as a pharmacy tech...


But I might consider moving them to the front of the store as a cashier.


Earning back trust is important but fortunately for them...


Most people with a record don't have trouble finding a job.


In my hometown, there's a contractor that works in a large paper mill.


They start at about $15 or $16 an hour. 8/10 of them are convicted sex offenders OR...


Have a drug charge.

Steve B
08-15-2013, 07:51 AM
I think the reality is that many people feel these people should be given a second chance, but they are hoping that it's someone else that gives it to them.

IADS
08-15-2013, 09:20 PM
A lot of true statements both for and against, but I truly believe that not giving that second chance adds to the recidivism rate due to having no other chose. Commit a crime or starve to death. Then the guilt drives them to using drugs. ...and the spiral continues...

PayForWords
08-16-2013, 05:56 AM
I think the reality is that many people feel these people should be given a second chance, but they are hoping that it's someone else that gives it to them.

That's probably a VERY accurate statement unfortunately.


All joking aside, there's always entry level construction or fast food.


Sure the money sucks and so does the work but it's a start. Money is money.


Or they could take up Internet Marketing. A lot of success stories there.

nexxterra
08-17-2013, 01:53 PM
On this note, how do we/you look at a person and tell if they are worth giving that second chance? :confused:

When the convince you they honestly WANT a second chance and not just a job.

Russ in Vancouver
08-18-2013, 12:37 AM
When the convince you they honestly WANT a second chance and not just a job.

Yes, most definitely they will have to be motivated to prove themselves and not expect society to subsidize them forever every time they make a mistake.
Goals, goal driven and working towards said goals.
Kind of like when screening possible tenants that will live in a separate part of your house. Who would you want... a two bit loser who stays at home all day smoking weed and playing xbox and has their rent paid by social assistance or a goal driven educated young working professional driven by dreams of success, on good terms with parents for back up emergency money if required.

vangogh
08-21-2013, 12:44 AM
I think the reality is that many people feel these people should be given a second chance, but they are hoping that it's someone else that gives it to them.

I'm sure a lot of people look at it that way. It's the same with lots of things. People want more nuclear power plants or wind farms or whatever as long as it isn't in their backyard.

To me hiring someone who's served a prison term wouldn't automatically be an issue because of the prison term. I would certainly take it into account, the same way I'd take anyone's past history into account. Having been convicted of a crime does weigh more negatively than a lot of things, but the details would mean a lot. What was the crime? How old was the person when they committed it? In the end while I'd consider past history, I'm more interested in who a person is now than who they were then. I've never met a person who didn't make a mistake or had done stupid things at one time or another.

Moonsun2
09-15-2013, 09:02 PM
Everybody should get a second chance. And yes, I would hire them, if I found they seemed sincere in their effort to start on a new path.