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Aaron Hats
01-24-2009, 10:46 AM
My primary web site is GetaHatOn.com which is wear all the selling happens. My blog is on AaronHats.com and I have a couple other domains as well. In the last three months I've been working on branding with bringing everything together. I'm making sure business cards, signs, store colors, shopping bags, etc all coordinate with the same look, style and color. One thing I've been seriously considering is changing my primary domain from GetaHatOn.com to AaronHats.com. Do you think this is a good idea or will I be banished to the bottom of a black hole with the search engines? With all the work I've done to the site in the last few months I'd hate to see all that go to waste. This is very scary to even think about so any sound advice is welcomed.

Thanks,

Aaron

vangogh
01-24-2009, 01:35 PM
Aaron if you change there are things you can do to help insure a smoother transition with search engines, but you should also be prepared for a temporary loss.

What you want to do is redirect pages from the old domain to the new domain. The type of redirection to use is called 301 or permanent redirection. With redirection if someone types in getahaton.com or attempts to access it through a bookmark or link they'll be redirected to the new domain seamlessly.

Search engines should pick up the new domain relatively quickly and reindex your content on the new domain. Google seems to be better at it than Yahoo or MSN though. The main issue will be in how search engines view links pointing to your site. It will take some time for any 'link juice' to transfer from your old domain to the new one. You probably have an advantage in that you already have aaronhats.com up and running. Still you should expect that it could up to six months before all the 'link juice' is seen as pointing to the new domain and in all likelihood some will never transfer.

Last year I moved my entire site from one domain to another. I set up 301 redirects for all pages and for the most part never skipped a beat. My traffic in Google stayed consistent as did my traffic in MSN. Yahoo traffic seems to have dropped some, but I wasn't getting a lot from Yahoo in the first place. Yahoo seems to still point to my old URLs too.

You won't be banished to a black hole, but you should expect for a time not to be doing as well in search engines. Visible PageRank will drop to 0 until an update or two, you'll lose some of the power of incoming links for a time, and it's possible you'll see less search traffic until they've caught up with the changes.

However a few months down the line I think you'll see improvements since it brings your main site and blog together under one domain working together.

Don't rush right into it. It's something you'd need to prepare in advance. There are some decisions to make before you pull the switch and move from one site to the next, but if you keep URLs the same other than the domain part it's just a couple of lines in one file to set up the redirection.

KristineS
01-24-2009, 04:23 PM
From a memory standpoint Aaron Hats makes more sense as a domain. People will mostly likely remember it more easily and it also ties more closely with your business name. GetaHatOn is cute, but it's generic, and it isn't what people who were trying to find you but didn't remember your URL would be likely to type into a search engine.

From a marketing standpoint using the Aaron Hats domain also makes sense. If customers can remember the name of your store they can remember your URL. You don't have to spend time getting them to remember a separate URL that really has no connection to the business.

Aaron Hats
01-24-2009, 05:45 PM
You won't be banished to a black hole, but you should expect for a time not to be doing as well in search engines.

That's what I was thinking. I should probably wait until summer when our in-store business really picks up so that it will make up for any slowdown online.


From a memory standpoint Aaron Hats makes more sense as a domain. People will mostly likely remember it more easily and it also ties more closely with your business name.

Yes, that's one of the reasons I've been thinking about this.

I just wanted to make sure I wouldn't be shooting myself in the foot if I do this. Thank you both for your feedback.

Aaron

vangogh
01-24-2009, 06:29 PM
Makes sense to time it with your in store sales. At first you won't notice any change. Your old pages will be ranking and will be redirecting to the new site. Remember that what you see in search results aren't pages as they are today, but how they were the last time search engines indexed them. Search results are a snapshot of how things were in the recent past.

As your new pages are indexed and old pages are dropped you can see changes. I really haven't seen any significant drop in traffic after moving. Maybe for a month or two I lost 10% of search traffic, but that came back pretty quickly too. Traffic from other sources shouldn't change at all.

Steve B
01-24-2009, 11:49 PM
I like the new domain name better too.

You can make up for the temporary loss by increasing the budget in your Google Adwords campaign.

billbenson
01-25-2009, 02:13 PM
I like the new domain name better too.

You can make up for the temporary loss by increasing the budget in your Google Adwords campaign.

I'm not sure I would do that. I think that when you use adwords G is slower to index your pages. I've seen other webmasters that have noticed that as well. I don't think it is always the case, but it is a consideration.

vangogh
01-25-2009, 03:29 PM
Bill I don't think there's any connection to indexing and using AdWords. That's always come across as more of a myth than anything else.

billbenson
01-25-2009, 04:51 PM
I have pages that should be indexed higher and haven't. They are creaping up though, but that is after years and I haven't changed them. I made a post regarding this on a webmaster forum and a couple of other webmasters had noted the same thing.

It's very inconclusive, but I think it is real based on experience. I also don't see it happening to everyone but none of my strongest competitors who are using adwords have pages in the top 50 on G either.

Maybe it's real, maybe its not, but its something to be aware of.

vangogh
01-25-2009, 05:15 PM
How do you know the pages should rank better than they do?

billbenson
01-25-2009, 07:38 PM
Similar strategies as other non adwords sites (including other oscommerce sites I have), only a couple of sites besides me optimized for those keywords, page comes up at 1 for 30 cents per click but is 500 in the SERPS. Irrelevant content comes up at the top frequently. Domain has been around since 2003. Same is true for the competitive sites. I didn't look to see if the sites coming up 1 with irrelevant content had inbound links or not.

It's an observation that I have looked at over time. It also makes sense. If you are paying for adwords, why would G want to rank you naturally.

Could be an inbound link issue, though. Since I'm strictly using adwords, I've put no effort into inbound links. Obviously my competitors either.

Ooops - foot in mouth. I just did a search for my most popular keyword and I come up 2 in the natural SERPS behind the manufacturer? That's new though, I still stand behind my other observations.

Dan Furman
01-25-2009, 07:46 PM
Why don't you just leave things alone and forward aaronhats.com to getahaton.com?

This way you get the best of both worlds. You keep your domain now, and you put aaronhats on all your marketing. And it all goes to the same place.

vangogh
01-25-2009, 08:38 PM
Similar strategies as other non adwords sites

Bill different sites won't necessarily take the same strategy. to rank as well. I don't think you can draw the conclusions you're drawing. Think about it for a moment. Why would Google punish the organic ranking of sites that use AdWords. That would only lead to people using AdWords less, hurting Google's bottom line, which wouldn't make sense for them.

@Dan - Aaron can't install other things on getahaton.com since he's using Volusion, which doesn't allow 3rd party applications to be installed. He needs to host his WordPress blog on a domain outside of of getahaton. I think part of the thinking here is to be able to host everything on one domain, though I shouldn't speak for Aaron. Just what I'm guessing based on other threads.

billbenson
01-25-2009, 08:45 PM
Not sure VG? But I have seen posts by very competent webmasters of a lot of sites that have had the same results. Some don't have this problem at all.

Why wouldn't google be slower to put you higher in the natural SERPS if you giving them money? They are in the business of selling advertising!

Steve B
01-25-2009, 09:03 PM
I don't understand anything about SEO, but I do see there would be motivation for Google to keep you lower on the organic rank if you are already paying them for adwords. I know I'm desperate to have my business on the first page. If I'm not there organically I'd pay to be there via Adwords. But, if I'm already there organically, I might see it as an opportunity to save money.

Since nobody knows how Google really ranks things - it seems like this discussion is just about theories to their motivation. I can certainly see their motivation to keep you down if you are already paying.

In my case, I'm greedy. I want to be high organically and via adwords. It doubles my chance of being seen - but, all won't see it this way.

vangogh
01-25-2009, 09:46 PM
Think about it. If Google kept your ranking down because you did sign up for AdWords wouldn't that be incentive for people to stop using AdWords. If they're going to play with the system it would be to do the opposite. Reward you for using AdWords with better ranking all around. They might also keep your rank down if you weren't using AdWords so that you'd be more likely to sign up to get search traffic.

Again I don't think they're doing either, but if they were I would think it more likely to work opposite of what you're describing.

billbenson
01-25-2009, 10:10 PM
In my case its a if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck thing. Also curious that after 5 years, I suddenly rank 2 instead of 500 for an untouched page? Optimized page, but a lousy landing page, so I guess I need to redo that now.

Why does one new site get sandboxed for 1 year and another doesn't? Seems to be a crap shoot. This may fit in that category.

vangogh
01-25-2009, 10:17 PM
The sandbox thing is about trust. To fight spam Google would rather not trust a brand new site until it knows it can. One way you might build trust is age, but another is links from trusted sources. If a brand new site gets links from CNN, The New York Times, Wikipedia, and The Whitehouse a week after it opens it's doors, it's likely going to be trusted.

There are so many reasons why things do and don't rank that you can't always just look at things casually and draw conclusions about other sites. The site suddenly ranking #2 could be in an industry where many of the other sites lost rank. Maybe your page picked up a few really good links. Maybe the algorithm changed in your favor. Maybe the ranking is temporary.

Steve B
01-26-2009, 03:27 AM
"If Google kept your ranking down because you did sign up for AdWords wouldn't that be incentive for people to stop using AdWords."

You're assuming a transparent system - which they go to great lengths to prevent. If you're a business that wants to be on page 1 and you're not - you're going to be willing to pay in order to be there. I know I would - as a matter of fact, that's exactly what I do. I doubt I'm alone.

billbenson
01-26-2009, 04:13 AM
Like I said, Its something I noted on one site and other very competent career webmasters have noted or suspected as well. Nothing more. It certainly isn't across the board, so I won't say it will affect you. I believe it has me.

vangogh
01-26-2009, 11:05 AM
You're assuming a transparent system

Not at all. If every time you buy AdWords your organic ranking goes down you're going to notice that. The system doesn't need to be all that transparent. But you're also assuming there's transparency in the system otherwise you wouldn't be able to notice anything to make you want to buy AdWords either. If there's no way anyone could make a connection between AdWords and organic rank then it makes no sense whatsoever to raise or drop organic rank based on AdWords buying because no one would notice. So this whole conversation implies that it can be noticed in some way.

Truth is the whole thing is a myth, but if Google is going to play with the system they're going to play with it in a way that favors them. The way you're suggesting hurts them and doesn't favor them in any way.

Harold Mansfield
01-26-2009, 12:27 PM
For a while, I would just redirect aaronhats.com to getahaton.com (or the other way around).

However, Personally, as long as "Getahaton.com" comes up first in the serps when people type "Aaron Hats" in the search bar, I wouldn't mess with anything.

if you are getting love on both domains in the serps, I would leave everything the way it is.

You have done a great job with SEO with both domains. I think you should keep what you got, where it is.
There is no reason you can't have 2 memorable domains on your marketing materials.

Steve B
01-27-2009, 05:20 AM
You must be right Steve. But, from my simple minded perspective, if my site doesn't make the top page and I want it to be there I will pay for adwords to get it there. If I later checked and I was on the top page organically, I might decide I no longer need to pay to be there.

I'm just telling you that it seems to an idiot like me that there would be a motivation for Google to keep their adwords people lower ranked to keep their motivation to pay for the placement they are NOT getting for free. I kind of doubt they are doing it - but I can see the possiblity.

vangogh
01-27-2009, 11:16 AM
Steve you may be many things, but an idiot is not one of them.

I can see your point, but let's take things a little further. You run AdWords and you notice your organic rankings improve so you drop the AdWords and the organic ranking goes back down. How long would it take to see that AdWords in that case is helping your organic rankings.

Now lets look at the opposite side. You buy AdWords and your organic ranking gets worse. I suppose it's possible that might make you think you need to spend more on AdWords to get the traffic lost. But say you for some reason stopped AdWords temporarily and your organic rankings came back do you think you would notice?

I think if you turned AdWords on and off once or twice you'd be able to see the connection (assuming there is one) and once you see the connection you'd take your money out of AdWords if it was hurting your organic ranking.

Plus there are people like me who will notice and start telling everyone even if the average person doesn't see it. Some might never see it, but enough would for it to affect the money spent on AdWords across the board.

Again I don't really think there's a connection between the two. It really doesn't make sense for Google to play around with organic listings based on AdWords spending or lack of spending.

Steve B
01-27-2009, 01:39 PM
I don't think any direct relationship would ever be noticed (by me) or could be attributable to being in or out of Adwords. People like you have convinced me there are way too many variables (many of them kept a secret) that influences these things. Therefore, I would never make any conclusion one way or the other - even if I noticed a change in placement.

So, I go back to my simple mindedness. If they are giving someone a top page placement for free - I can see why the customer would lose motivation to buy top page placement via adwords. If the candy store gave you candy for free every time you walked in the door - you might start leaving your money at home. There is another analogy with a cow giving away milk, but I won't use that one!

In my case, I'm greedy. I want to be on the top page twice (or three or four times) if I can. So, I'm happy to pay for adwords even in the cases where I'm already on the first page.

vangogh
01-27-2009, 05:54 PM
I don't think any direct relationship would ever be noticed (by me) or could be attributable to being in or out of Adwords.

That's one of my points. If you and others like you aren't going to notice why would they even play with the two systems. If you won't notice it won't have any effect no matter what they do.

People like me though will notice and if paying for AdWords hurt organic rankings we'd stop using AdWords and advise out clients to do the same.

Steve B
01-27-2009, 06:46 PM
I would always notice if my site is on the top page. If it wasn't I would pay for it to be. I wouldn't notice the relationship as to why it got there.

If it WAS on the top page - I might easily decide not to pay extra for what I'm already getting for free. Free candy - thanks, I'll keep my money in my pocket.

vangogh
01-27-2009, 07:16 PM
It's the relationship you'd have to notice. Pretend you did notice the relationship.

Scenario 1
You buy AdWords and your organic ranking goes down. You remove AdWords and it goes back up. You try AdWords again and your organic ranking drops yet again. Every time you buy ads you lose organic traffic and every time you stop buying ads you gain organic traffic goes up.

Will you continue to buy AdWords?

Scenario 2
You buy AdWords and your organic ranking goes up. You stop using AdWords and your organic ranking goes down. You add AdWords again and your organic rank again goes up. Each time you buy ads you get more organic search traffic. Each time you stop buying ads you get less organic traffic.

Will you continue to buy AdWords?

For the sake of argument in both scenarios lets assume your organic traffic is always more than your AdWords traffic just so we're not making decisions based on the traffic we're getting from the ads. In a real world example you could spend so much on AdWords and get so much traffic from it that it really doesn't make much difference what our organic rank does. For this discussion let's assume traffic from AdWords is negligible in both scenarios above.