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View Full Version : In SEO Small Things Can Add Up To A Big Difference



vangogh
01-22-2009, 01:22 PM
Rand started an interesting discussion at SEOmoz asking the question do the little things in seo make a big difference? (http://www.seomoz.org/blog/do-the-little-things-in-seo-make-a-big-difference) I think they so and I also think the idea that some changes have a small effect individually, but a larger effect in total confuses people about the value of SEO.

Somewhere you might have seen advice like using keywords in the alt attribute of an image tag or make sure to use keywords in page headings or display some keywords on your page in bold or italics.

You may even have tried one or two and not seen any change in how well your page ranks for those keywords.

Many tips for on-page optimization have a limited impact, but when you start doing more of them the impact begins to add up. The flip side is that some think if you optimize every little thing you can it sends a signal that you're an SEO and perhaps raises a flag with search engines. It's possible that if you push everything to the boundary the sum total crosses the boundary and sets off a warning.

I think it's a good idea to get into the habit of doing a number of things right. That helps you optimize many little things without crossing the line. For example:

1. Name files and folders appropriately. Don't name something image001.jpg. Instead give it a name like product-name.jpg. The second naturally includes keywords and helps search engines identify what your page is about.

Similarly for for folders. If you're site structure uses URLs like:

domain.com/category/product-name.php

you're naturally including keywords across your entire site in a way that makes sense to both people and search engines. The above won't automatically mean you'll rank for the keywords you use, but you're probably one step closer to doing so.

There are many other things you can do like this that by themselves may have little effect, but together do make a difference. Think of search engine success as a long journey with each of these small things as small steps along the journey. One step doesn't get you to your destination, but each step takes you a little closer and no steps guarantees you'll always be right where you are.

orion_joel
01-22-2009, 07:36 PM
Some good points here, but what i wonder is how diligent do you have to be in doing this for it to work, and how much of it can you simply do some here and some there and achieve if not the full effect some level of benefit.

cbscreative
01-22-2009, 08:23 PM
I would agree that the little things add up, and my experience strongly supports this. I've never been penalized for "going too far" and haven't thought about that before, but I think attention to detail is generally rewarded. Since many people prefer the quick and easy, a bit of extra effort seems to pay off. The things you mentioned about naming files and directories are good advice. To me, these are the "foundation" of a good web site. You build a good foundation, and everything you put on top of it will be stronger.

vangogh
01-22-2009, 08:31 PM
Joel to me a lot of this is simply getting into good habits. If you remember to name files well, for example, you'll start to do it for every file you create. I don't know that you have to worry too much about exactly how much to do. Just do what you can and develop good habits.

billbenson
01-22-2009, 10:42 PM
This goes to a number of threads we have had. Keywords in urls, putting content at the top if you can, take js and css off page etc. When someone comes along and says a lot of these items don't matter, I think they do, and at a minimum they don't hurt. So, given a compelling reason not to do some of these things they comprise good site design.

seolman
01-22-2009, 11:39 PM
I often compare doing SEO to building up a fine orchestra. When all the instruments are in place and playing off the same sheet of music it sound great to Google and other SE's.

I find this point interesting:
The flip side is that some think if you optimize every little thing you can it sends a signal that you're an SEO and perhaps raises a flag with search engines. It's possible that if you push everything to the boundary the sum total crosses the boundary and sets off a warning.

I'm guessing you are talking about the edge being at what point do we call it keyword stuffing or too many images with the same alt attributes etc.? I agree - there is a limit.

I think any time when a person pushes the envelope beyond what is practical they are taking too much of a risk. Better to add more content, more quality external links; do things that work better and bring better returns.

I don't think Google even minds a person using an SEO, provided they are highlighting the true attributes of the page. If you simply state the page's true importance then build it's link popularity - you win.

vangogh
01-23-2009, 12:35 AM
I'm not saying there is such a thing as overoptimization, but I've seen it discussed often enough and I know there are people who believe it.

I can see how it's possible that if you've done too many things well it appears unnatural. I suppose it's possible a search engine could notice and take action. They generally don't want to see pages unnaturally ranking.

Does it happen? I have no idea and I doubt it would ever be a problem for most people. But I know some do think it happens and I can see where it possibly could.

seolman
01-23-2009, 12:50 AM
I think the SE's tend to let the chips fall where they may. I know we've all seen the silly pages where they are so ridiculously "over-optimized" (yes I will use that term) that people just roll their eyes. I'll give you an example:

Let's say I am selling baseball hats. Here's my opening paragraph;

BASEBALL HATS

Welcome to the leading supplier of baseball hats in Texas. That's right! If it's baseball hats you are looking for, you've found the best baseball hat supplier in the State. We stock large baseball hats, medium baseball hats and small baseball hats - as well as kids baseball hats and baseball hats for babies too. Heck, we've even got baseball hats for pets!

By the time I'm done reading the first paragraph I'm sick to my stomach and I'll never buy a baseball hat from this guy - ever. He'll never rank well in Google - probably hit the top spot in MSN fairly quick (hehe) till some other spammer beats him, get a few visits to his site from the bad SE's, no sales and wonder why his site is getting traffic but nobody buys from him...:p

billbenson
01-23-2009, 01:26 AM
Well, I'd really call that keyword stuffing or the likes Seolman. But if its something like this:

title: Baseball hats

H1 Basball hats for all the major league teams

H2 Baltimore Oreals
These hats are made of fine...

H2 Boston Red Sox
The Boston Red Sox are know for their...

etc, tossing in the word baseball hat occasionally if it fits in with the text.

----------------------
Curious if you guys agree with that as well if each subheading should be h2. It seems to me it should because no one teams hat description is more important than another. I think G will cross reference the teams with baseball hats for a page like that. At that point SEO is really just telling G what the page is about which they like.

Also, on edit: I see no reason not to do this on baseball-hats.com or domain/baseball-hats.html?

vangogh
01-23-2009, 11:18 AM
Dave, I'd call that keyword stuffing as well, though I guess at some point over optimization does become keyword stuffing.

Bill when I set up headings I set them up so it makes sense to real people and makes sense for organizing the content. I would do pretty much what you did in your example, but not because of search engines. It just makes sense based on the information. There could also be other ways to organize the content other than your example. The point is to organize it based on the information and what will work best for real people.

Where search engines come in is the idea that they probably give a little more weight to words in a heading than they would to words in a paragraph. Knowing that it makes sense to add a keyword or phrase in the heading if it makes sense for real people. Considering this thread it's something you should do, but by itself I wouldn't expect it to make much of a difference, but if you get in the habit of writing optimized headings you're that much closer to having optimized web pages.

seolman
01-23-2009, 01:27 PM
@Bill I agree there's nothing wrong with using the terms in the right places and even several times when it makes sense.

@Vangogh - yup I exaggerated to make the point how writing text for the engines and not for the customer kills the whole point of having the web site. Write your headers and content for the client. Lead them where you want them to go with artful words and layout. After that - if it is possible to tweak the text a bit to make sure Google and other SE's truly understand the theme of your page - great. Otherwise IMHO (and I know you probably feel the same based on prior posts of yours) SEO takes a back seat to customer needs.

Edit - oh - and I did some keyword stuffing on baseball issues so this page would rank highly in MSN for baseball hats...

billbenson
01-23-2009, 01:36 PM
Going back to my example, VG. the first h2 was "Baltimore Oreals" and probably has an image of a Baltimore Oreals hat. For all of the images, would it not make sense to use an alt tag like "Baltimore Oreals Baseball Cap". If the page has all the teams on it, that is putting the word "baseball cap" on the page an awful lot, but it does in fact make sense as you are describing the image?

vangogh
01-23-2009, 02:50 PM
I assume you mean adding "Baltimore Orioles Baseball Cap" in the alt attributes of just the images that are of Oriole caps and not on every team. If so then sure why not Alt attributes are meant to describe the image for anyone who can't see that image. You could also do things like:

Baltimore Orioles Home Cap
Orioles Baseball Cap: Road

and mix it up. I suppose using the exact same alt attribute for each image could look like an attempt to spam search results. Is it natural? In some respects yes and in others no. Maybe if the page also has a page title and page headings and anchor text links all optimized for the exact same phrase it would appear highly unnatural.

billbenson
01-23-2009, 03:09 PM
What I meant is domain or page, title, and H1 is major Major League Baseball Caps.

The alt tags would be:

Baltimore Orioles baseball cap
Orioles Baseball Cap
etc.

Baseball cap would appear in each alt tag, but so would the team.

cbscreative
01-23-2009, 04:33 PM
He he. Dave (seolman) is right, this page should rank well for baseball hats since baseball hats are mentioned so many times, and anyone looking for baseball hats should certainly find this page. Not only will this rank well for baseball hats, the ads might show baseball hats too.

vangogh
01-23-2009, 08:19 PM
We'll have to check in a few days to see how well this page ranks for baseball hats. If it does rank well for baseball hats maybe we should place an ad for baseball hats at the top of the first page of the thread.

Of course most people would probably search for baseball caps so we'll have to see how useful the phrase is.