Logo Redesign Objectives/Needs Analysis

[Jagella]

I'm currently studying how to redesign a logo for a business. To understand a business, its objectives, and its needs, I must ask the questions below. I'd appreciate answers to these questions from anybody here who is running a business and would like to help. Please try to be spontaneous when answering the questions.

Thanks!

Jagella


What business are you in?
What is your mission? What are your three most important goals?
Why was this company created?
Describe your products or services.
Who is your target market?
What is your competitive advantage? Why do your customers choose your product or service? What do you do better than anyone else?
Who is your competition? Is there a competitor that you admire most? If so, why?
How do you market your product and services?
What are the trends and changes that affect your industry?
What are the potential barriers to the success of your product or service?
Place yourself in the future. If your company could do anything or be anything, what would it be?
If you could communicate a single message about your company, what would it be?

[vangogh]

1. What business are you in?
Web Design/Development and SEO

2. What is your mission? What are your three most important goals?
I don't have a specific mission. I have more than three goals, but here are three off the top of my head.

a. To provide a win-win situation for myself and my clients or customers.
b. To wake up in the morning looking forward to the day's work and going to bed at night feeling that the day was productive.
c. To continue to grow as a business and a person.

3. Why was this company created?
To provide a living for me while allowing me to spend my days doing something I enjoy.

4. Describe your products or services.
Design, development, and marketing of websites.

5. Who is your target market?
Small business owners looking to build or improve their internet presence.

6. What is your competitive advantage? Why do your customers choose your product or service? What do you do better than anyone else?
I build sites that are usable and search engine friendly. You'd have to ask my clients to know for certain, but I think they feel confident in my ability to deliver on what I promise, they trust my knowledge and experience, and perhaps most importantly they simply trust and like me.

7. Who is your competition? Is there a competitor that you admire most? If so, why?
My competition is anyone who offers the same services to the same market. There's no one competitor I admire most. There are plenty of other Designer/Developer/SEOs who I admire for one thing or another. Usually because they do something very well that I'd like to do better. Sometimes it's simply because they're friends and I admire them as people.

8. How do you market your product and services?
A variety of ways, but it all essentially breaks down to doing my best to figure out where my market spends it's time and then maintaining a presence there so people can learn what I do and how I can help them

9. What are the trends and changes that affect your industry?
Design/Development/SEO is always changing. Technology advances, aesthetic design trends come and go. Search engines tweak the rules of the game all the time.

10. What are the potential barriers to the success of your product or service?
I don't believe there are any other than my own ability

11. Place yourself in the future. If your company could do anything or be anything, what would it be?
Basically what it is now, just better

12. If you could communicate a single message about your company, what would it be?
You'll consider the decision to work with me a good one after your project is finished. Restated. After working with me you'll want to work with me again.

[Blessed]

1. What business are you in?
Graphic Design, Marketing

2. What is your mission? What are your three most important goals?
I don't really have a "mission" but three of my most important goals are first to be able to manage a workload that lets me stay home, raise my children and keep a warm and inviting home that my husband enjoys coming home to. Secondly to earn enough money at this point to help us pay off all of our extra debt as soon as possible and in the future to earn enough money to let us do a few fun things as a family we might not have gotten to do otherwise. And finally to maintain my skills, knowledge, connections and the professional side of my life.

3. Why was this company created?
Because I had a baby and wanted to stay home to raise her myself rather than placing her in daycare. Also, I've always wanted to have the freedom that working for myself gives me.

4. Describe your products or services.
Graphic Design and professional desktop publishing - logos, brochures, stationary, billboards, posters, media kits and other marketing collateral

5. Who is your target market?
Small businesses who want, need and appreciate the services of a professional but don't need someone full time on staff or have the resources to hire a professional ad agency

6. What is your competitive advantage? Why do your customers choose your product or service? What do you do better than anyone else?
I know printing and a lot of my customers use me because they don't want the headache of having files that are not really print-ready when they go to a printer to have their work done. Also I'm personable, I've been in the business a long time and know what I'm talking about and I offer very competitive rates and quick turn-around times.

7. Who is your competition? Is there a competitor that you admire most? If so, why?
This field in this market is full of competition. There are several other free-lance designers out there that also offer good services. I know several of my competitors and am friends with a fair number of them. We all have different strengths and have been known to pass customers on to someone else who we knew would be better able to really provide a client what they really wanted. My primary competition is in-house design services provided by local printers. I hope to expand my skill-set to include some web design this year in order to expand my marketability.

8. How do you market your product and services?
Mostly word-of-mouth right now. Also I write articles for the local monthly newspaper in exchange for free advertising in that paper every month.

9. What are the trends and changes that affect your industry?
Printing processes, color useage, market strength, how much money small businesses are spending on advertising

10. What are the potential barriers to the success of your product or service?
I'm a one-woman show with a 16 month old and another baby on the way - sometimes life happens and work doesn't get done like it needs to. This has cost me one client (who was a pain in the neck and I wasn't too upset when they left) and a few projects that my regular clients had to go to their higher-priced, in-house designers for because I simply couldn't get the work done.

11. Place yourself in the future. If your company could do anything or be anything, what would it be?
I want it to generate a steady income with a steady flow of work.

12. If you could communicate a single message about your company, what would it be?
I want my customers to feel like my creativity and professionalism has helped them obtain the results they want from their printed materials.

[Jagella]

Web Design/Development and SEO

How did you learn your SEO expertise, Steve?


a. To provide a win-win situation for myself and my clients or customers.
b. To wake up in the morning looking forward to the day's work and going to bed at night feeling that the day was productive.
c.To continue to grow as a business and a person.

My goals are much the same, and I'm also looking to make a profit before the year is out.


To provide a living for me while allowing me to spend my days doing something I enjoy.

Creative work can be a lot of fun.


You'd have to ask my clients to know for certain, but I think they feel confident in my ability to deliver on what I promise, they trust my knowledge and experience, and perhaps most importantly they simply trust and like me.

Building trust in your prospects and clients is certainly essential to running a profitable business. Being likable is very important too. Oddly, many business owners don't seem to put much stress on the latter.


Sometimes it's simply because they're friends and I admire them as people.

Competitors don't need to be antagonists, and it's usually better if they aren't.


Design/Development/SEO is always changing. Technology advances, aesthetic design trends come and go. Search engines tweak the rules of the game all the time.

It's become a bit of a platitude, but businesses that don't adapt to change are unlikely to succeed.


I don't believe there are any other than my own ability

A barrier I'm encountering is the competition. Graphic design is very competitive, and the most talented designers tend to get the most profitable work assuming that they're good at marketing their offerings.


You'll consider the decision to work with me a good one after your project is finished. Restated. After working with me you'll want to work with me again.

That's a good message to send. Clients naturally get a little nervous about the work they may need from a designer or web developer like yourself. Instilling trust in them, like I mentioned earlier, is one of the keys to success—both ours and theirs.

Thanks, Steve.

Jagella

[vangogh]

Joe I leaned SEO by reading and experimenting. When I first built a site it dawned on me I didn't know how to get people to the site and figured I should learn. SEO was one part of that learning. In the beginning I read a lot. At first mostly forums and later blogs. In between I read a bunch of ebooks. SEO is confusing at first because there's a lot of old information and misinformation online.

If you approach it with a holistic view and see it as one part of your overall marketing it can become easier to sort out the good and bad information. Understand it's not a quick thing. You can't make a few changes on your site and suddenly rank #1 in Google. It takes time and effort and in the end it's really just marketing.


A barrier I'm encountering is the competition. Graphic design is very competitive

Many industries are competitive. Learn from your competition, but don't focus on them. Focus on what you can do. Look for things you can do that others can't and keep improving. Maybe there are better designers out there now, but look to improve your skills so in a year or two you can be right there with them. And look for things you can do to differentiate yourself. Not everyone wants to work with the high end designers. They have a reputation for not wanting to listen to the client and being stubborn about fighting for their designs. So you can differentiate yourself by being more flexible.

I'm generalizing above, but the idea is to figure out things you do well that aren't strengths for other designers. Whether you think so or not there are things you can do that others would have a hard time copying.

You can also look to reduce some of your competition by working locally or focusing on a specific industry. What areas other than design do you know well? You could focus on an industry about one of those other areas.

Looking at your site I see you have degrees in Accounting. You could focus specifically on the needs of Accountants, who'll have different graphics needs than doctors or real estate agents. Before long you could be the graphic designer for Accountants in Williamsport. Then you can expand to other industries and other locations to expand your market. You'll encounter more competition, but by then you'll have more experience to enable you to compete better.

Focus on what you can do and not what you can't do.

[Blessed]

You can also look to reduce some of your competition by working locally or focusing on a specific industry. What areas other than design do you know well? You could focus on an industry about one of those other areas.

Looking at your site I see you have degrees in Accounting. You could focus specifically on the needs of Accountants, who'll have different graphics needs than doctors or real estate agents. Before long you could be the graphic designer for Accountants in Williamsport. Then you can expand to other industries and other locations to expand your market. You'll encounter more competition, but by then you'll have more experience to enable you to compete better.

Focus on what you can do and not what you can't do.

I have to agree 100% with this... my first experience was with newspapers and magazines. This means that when I talk about putting these types of publications together I really do know what I'm doing. I also do some logo design, junk mail, postcards, brochures, etc... but I'm really strong with magazines, newsletters and other types of periodicals. I have a local friend who is a competitor that is pretty weak in this area of design however he is an awesome illustrator and does really good work with certain types of logo design and junk mail - especially postcards and etc... so if I get a customer that I know I'm not going to be able to make happy after I talk to them about what they are looking for in a logo I pass them on to him and when he gets a customer that needs a newsletter/etc... he refers them to me. It's all about doing what we do best and keeping our names and reputations good in the area by keeping happy customers. Additionally - I seek out the kind of work I'm good at - I did a high school sports program last year for example, but I don't seek out work from the downtown comic book shop that wants a new logo.

If you know the accounting field - you're going to know what kind of things accountants are going to want and need - reach out to them first and expand from there.

[vangogh]

You bring up another good point. You can always find other designers who's strengths and weaknesses complement yours and direct clients each others way. In a way you gain the benefits of a fully staffed firm without actually all being in the same business.

Recommending work to someone in your industry with a somewhat different skill set can be one way to get work back yourself.

[Jagella]

I don't really have a "mission" but three of my most important goals are first to be able to manage a workload that lets me stay home, raise my children and keep a warm and inviting home that my husband enjoys coming home to.

It wasn't that long ago that you wouldn't be able to do what you're describing here. It demonstrates that technology, despite its many shortcomings, does help to make life better for many people. It has for me.


Small businesses who want, need and appreciate the services of a professional but don't need someone full time on staff or have the resources to hire a professional ad agency

I'll keep you on my list when I need to outsource work.


I hope to expand my skill-set to include some web design this year in order to expand my marketability.

I've decided to do the same. For a while I just concentrated on non-Web design, but I seem to be leaning back to Web development. I really enjoy creating and maintaining Web sites.


Also I write articles for the local monthly newspaper in exchange for free advertising in that paper every month.

So bartering is still practiced among professionals.

Thanks, Jenn.

Jagella

[Jagella]

Maybe there are better designers out there now, but look to improve your skills so in a year or two you can be right there with them...I'm generalizing above, but the idea is to figure out things you do well that aren't strengths for other designers. Whether you think so or not there are things you can do that others would have a hard time copying.

I try to learn something new every day, and short of that, I try to hone my present skills. One thing I've discovered at the Art Institute is that I'm much better than the other students at using the software, and I'm a much better writer and communicator. Oddly, some of them still often best me from a visual standpoint when the final work is due. How would you interpret that fact, Steve? Might I succeed at writing Photoshop books?


What areas other than design do you know well?

I'm very good at mathematics, and I used to tutor algebra and trigonometry.


Looking at your site I see you have degrees in Accounting. You could focus specifically on the needs of Accountants, who'll have different graphics needs than doctors or real estate agents. Before long you could be the graphic designer for Accountants in Williamsport.

It's strange that you should recommend this route because I was just thinking about it myself. I may phone my accountant and ask him if he thinks it has promise.


Focus on what you can do and not what you can't do.

I must admit that design work has been a source of some frustration for me. Maybe I'm just used to being the head of the class in other subjects, and now I'm finding that I need to play second fiddle to some other people (practicing professionals). But if I keep things in perspective, I think I'm doing rather well for a guy who until recently was educated by reading some HTML books and editing some digital photos in Adobe Photo Deluxe!

http://www.msdmv.k12.in.us/farmersville/msdmv/images/sun_rise.psd.jpg

Thanks again, Steve.

Jagella

[vangogh]

Joe you might be putting too much emphasis on the tools. I've always maintained that a good designer will still end up with a great design using the most primitive of tools, say something like the Paint application that comes default on Windows. I don't know of anyone who seriously designs with it, but a good designer will still create something better with it than a poor designer using Photoshop will.

Try sketching. Drop all the software and see what you can design with pen and paper. I almost always start a design with a sketch at least to get an idea of the basic layout. Also try using tools you're not as familiar with. Let your creativity guide you instead of the tool.

Believe it or not I design a lot in code. There are times I see something in my head and I know exactly how I'll code it so I don't bother with Photoshop. I also like to experiment in my css files. Sometimes it's quicker to make a few changes, refresh the page, and see what something looks like than it is to create different versions of the image in software.

I guess I'm psychic with the accounting thing.

[Jagella]

Joe you might be putting too much emphasis on the tools.

I understand that, Steve, but I just love software. Whenever I get a new application installed, I'm like a kid with a new toy.


Try sketching. Drop all the software and see what you can design with pen and paper. I almost always start a design with a sketch at least to get an idea of the basic layout. Also try using tools you're not as familiar with. Let your creativity guide you instead of the tool.

My next assignment involves creating thumbnails for a logo. My facilitator has given the class a choice of creating the thumbnails using Illustrator or sketching them by hand. I will take the latter route as you suggest. I planned to hand sketch the thumbnails, anyway. As you know, hand sketching allows more creativity for most people because rather than fuss with the software's interface, you simply draw with a pencil and focus on generating ideas.

It's interesting that you recommend hand sketching because it's what the Art Institute insists is often best for enhancing creativity. I see that their course work and the “real world” are in harmony.


Believe it or not I design a lot in code. There are times I see something in my head and I know exactly how I'll code it so I don't bother with Photoshop. I also like to experiment in my css files. Sometimes it's quicker to make a few changes, refresh the page, and see what something looks like than it is to create different versions of the image in software.

You lost me a little bit here. How is using Photoshop like coding HTML and CSS? Do you sometimes create web-page mockups in Photoshop?


I guess I'm psychic with the accounting thing.

Well, after all this dialogue you're bound to anticipate some of the ideas that I might have.

Thanks again, Steve.

Jagella

[vangogh]

Nothing wrong with enjoying software. I do too. Just don't let it take away from other things that are also important. I do like sketching. I'm not sure it's automatically any more creative, but if you change up how you do things it kind of forces you to be more creative.

I wasn't trying to compare Photoshop to html. What I meant was I'll play around with a css file to see how something looks. For example I might create a Photoshop image that's all grayscale and then once I've built a page template experiment with color. Or maybe once I have the html and css I'll try different fonts to see if I can improve the design.

Sometimes I can see in my head how I want something to look and know how I'll code it with html and css. I might know that in 20 minutes I can have the thing coded, but it might take me a couple of hours working with Photoshop to create an image of the same thing. In that case I may just have an area as a placeholder in the PSD and not bother fleshing out the details until I'm coding.

It's more about not using the one tool, in this case Photoshop.


Do you sometimes create web-page mockups in Photoshop?

Depends on what you consider a mock-up. If you mean an html version of a page, then no. I never have Photoshop output any code since the code it does produce is mostly worthless.

When I work in Photoshop I'm created layered PSDs that will let me create the design and later be used to generate the images I'll need to code. I'll often have different versions of some things within the same PSD file and I'll create a few jpgs from it that I'll send to clients as design comps for them to approve.

My clients generally don't need mock-ups of everything and probably wouldn't want to pay me to create them. Don't feel like you need to do everything you learn about in a class or read about in a book. The process described in both is often for specific kinds of sites and usually rather larger ones. If I was redesigning IBMs intranet then I would be creating wireframs and mockups and all the rest, but for a client who needs a 5 page site it makes no sense to create all the deliverables that might be mentioned in a book on web design. Let the client approve a design comp image and then build the site.

[Jagella]

Depends on what you consider a mock-up. If you mean an html version of a page, then no. I never have Photoshop output any code since the code it does produce is mostly worthless.

By “mockup” I mean a design you might create in Illustrator and/or Photoshop that looks essentially like a proposed web page complete with text, photos and illustrations, and dummy links. This image might be in JPEG, TIFF, AI or PSD format. It isn't an HTML file and doesn't function like one—it just looks like one. The idea is to get a good representation of the web page before you go to the trouble of coding the HTML, CSS, and placing the page on the remote server. I suppose some web developers might like this technique as a personal preference. A client who knows little about coding or HTML programs like Dreamweaver but who can use imaging software like Photoshop might also create a mockup to show a designer what he or she may want the page to look like.

Jagella

[vangogh]

That's what I meant by a design comp. I'll do one to show a client what a typical page will look like. If the site is large enough and requires a different design for different pages or sections I'll do one for each.

When I say I'll design in html and css it's changes I may make to the above comp. It's also that some things I'll only show roughly in the design comp. It's not the typical approach most designers would take, but it works for me. I have asked some clients to just trust me at times. Usually it's with someone who trusts me enough to know I'll always make things right.

[Jagella]

That's what I meant by a design comp. I'll do one to show a client what a typical page will look like. If the site is large enough and requires a different design for different pages or sections I'll do one for each.

OK, now I understand what you mean. Creating comps is a very important stage of the design process. Do you create a comp after sketching thumbnails and deciding which sketch you think is best?

How did you arrive at your current logo's design? Is the radial symbol on the left based on a color wheel? A lot of logos I've seen use all lower-case letters, and separate different words using alternate colors like your logo does.

Jagella

[vangogh]

I do some rough sketches to get an idea of the layout. I may try a few different layouts and then I choose one for Photoshop and develop a comp which I'll send to the client. Usually the client approves the comp with some minor changes at most, but if need be I'll rework the comp or develop one based on a different layout.

Honestly I don't put as much into the process as I think you might be thinking. Don't get too caught up worrying about what other designers do or don't do along the process of creating a finished design. Learn from them, sure, but develop your own process that works best for you.

When I talk about sketches they generally take about 5 minutes to create. They aren't anything elaborate. But because they're so quick to create I can decide much sooner which ideas will work and which won't.

The symbol is a color wheel. Seemed like a good symbol of what a designer does. I've never been particularly crazy about it and will probably change it the next time I redesign my site. The lower case lettering just looked right to me and I think it helps convey a sense of friendliness as it's less formal.

[Jagella]

Don't get too caught up worrying about what other designers do or don't do along the process of creating a finished design. Learn from them, sure, but develop your own process that works best for you.

My approach lately has been: If they can do it, then I can do it. That is, I've been looking at a lot of designs and illustrations in printed ads and websites presumably created by practicing and successful professionals. I figure if I can do the kind of work that is actually being used and paid for, then clients will use and pay for my work. Does that sound like a sensible approach? I add my own spin to my work, of course, but I just think that targeting a level of skill is a good way to set goals for my own skills.


The symbol is a color wheel. Seemed like a good symbol of what a designer does. I've never been particularly crazy about it and will probably change it the next time I redesign my site.

It's a good logo, Steve, but I think it might better reflect your line of business. Since you're a web developer and designer, is there any way your logo would bring that to mind in your clients? I'm thinking that some kind of network diagram around a globe could symbolize the Internet, but the problem with that kind of image is that it may be too complicated for a logo. Is there any kind of symbol that might result from a process of abstraction that would work to symbolize the Internet?

Jagella

[vangogh]

Joe your approach makes sense. Imitate what's working and add something of your own into the mix. It's the traditional way creative people have developed styles since the dawn of creativity.

I didn't my logo to be too complicated. I wanted a simple image and I have some ideas for the next version of the logo. You'll have to wait to hear about that one until I redesign the logo and the site sometime later this year I hope. I do have some ideas for something a little more abstract, though again nothing too complicated.

[Jagella]

I didn't my logo to be too complicated. I wanted a simple image and I have some ideas for the next version of the logo. You'll have to wait to hear about that one until I redesign the logo and the site sometime later this year I hope. I do have some ideas for something a little more abstract, though again nothing too complicated.

Steve, here's an idea that might get your creative juices flowing.

http://freeforalldesigns.com/graphics/Van-Seo-Design-Google-Logo.gif

Since you develop SEO-friendly websites, I thought it might be appropriate. I think it's relevant and simple too. What do you think?

It looks like I'll be redesigning your logo for a class project. I hope you don't mind. It's all academic, of course, but I'll be happy to share my progress with you. I'll be getting advice from my facilitator and the other students in my class. It's a win-win situation, Steve. You get some ideas for your new logo, and I get some practice creating a logo for a client.

Jagella

[vangogh]

Interesting design, though I'll probably stick with my current logo for now. I can see what you were going for with the search box tying into seo. From a usability perspective. people might be tempted to click on design and if it didn't go anywhere they could become frustrated. I suppose the location of the logo in the upper left might be an indication that it shouldn't be clicked, but people are conditioned to click on a search box. On the other hand it could be designed to lead somewhere and direct people into the site. The logo could actually double as a site search.

I'm not crazy about the font you used for Van. I might just be the effects. Looks a little too Googlish for me, which I'm guessing is where you were going.

It is an interesting design and I think it's a creative way to look at a logo. I don't mind at all if you want to rework my logo for a class project and feel free to share. It might be interesting to share some of your thoughts too about why you made a certain design decision. Maybe put the logo up and after we've had a chance to comment you can offer your thought process behind each.

[Blessed]

I agree with Steve about the font for Van - also I think it's too big in relation to the rest of the logo but it does show some good creativity on your part Jagella!

If you get bored with Steve's logo here's mine (although... unlike Steve I really like my logo and won't be changing it for awhile. :D)

http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm73/CrazyDogsBlog/crazy-dog-logo.jpg

usually it's on an orange background... like this button from my blog.

http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm73/CrazyDogsBlog/BlogButton.jpg

And... from a long time ago when we all shared virtual business cards - here is what my business cards look like front & back.

http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm73/CrazyDogsBlog/BusCardforWeb.jpg

OK... that's enough for now - I look forward to hearing what you think!

[Jagella]

Interesting design, though I'll probably stick with my current logo for now.

I think that's a good idea. You know how effective your logo is better than I.


From a usability perspective. people might be tempted to click on design and if it didn't go anywhere they could become frustrated.

In that case they wouldn't think much of your “search engine.” ;) I think it's easy to confuse people with some designs.


The logo could actually double as a site search.

That's a novel idea. A logo that doubles as a site-search engine? If we tried that, then we'd lose the “SEO” and “Designs” text, though.


I'm not crazy about the font you used for Van. I might just be the effects. Looks a little too Googlish for me, which I'm guessing is where you were going.

It is “Googlish” all right. (Did you just coin a new word?) I found the Google font here (http://googlefont.com/). I see the problem with it. If you're not affiliated with Google, then you don't want to look too much like Google. Logos should look distinctive in most cases.


It might be interesting to share some of your thoughts too about why you made a certain design decision. Maybe put the logo up and after we've had a chance to comment you can offer your thought process behind each.

Will do, Steve. When I first created this logo, I just loved it. But after just a little bit of feedback, I can see a lot of problems with it. Peer review is a must for good design, in my opinion.

Stay tuned.

Jagella

[Jagella]

I agree with Steve about the font for Van - also I think it's too big in relation to the rest of the logo but it does show some good creativity on your part Jagella!

Thanks. I try to be clever when creating graphics, but often clever isn't good enough, now is it? Thanks to the feedback I'm getting, I think I'll need to go back to the drawing board.


If you get bored with Steve's logo here's mine (although... unlike Steve I really like my logo and won't be changing it for awhile. )

I wouldn't say I'm bored with Steve's logo, but I'll check yours out too seeing that you're better looking than he is. :p


OK... that's enough for now - I look forward to hearing what you think!

Well, Jenn, I've seen this logo before on your website. What I'm wondering is how the “crazy dog” relates to your business. Does it mean something to your target market? Overall the image is visually appealing. I like the color harmony, and the forms are balanced. It's obviously playful. To judge its effectiveness, I'd need to research your competitors and target market. What kind of feedback, if any, have you received from your clients about it?

Jagella

[Blessed]

Well, Jenn, I've seen this logo before on your website. What I'm wondering is how the “crazy dog” relates to your business. Does it mean something to your target market? Overall the image is visually appealing. I like the color harmony, and the forms are balanced. It's obviously playful. To judge its effectiveness, I'd need to research your competitors and target market. What kind of feedback, if any, have you received from your clients about it?

Jagella

"Crazy Dog" doesn't really relate much to my business at all. However... I am a dog person and one of the things I did pre-child that I will begin to do again as soon as baby #2 is a year or so old (so next summer) is train labrador retrievers so... to everyone who knows me or gets to know me the "Crazy Dog" makes perfect sense especially since I have two of them here with me all the time - a seven year old black lab and a five year old black lab - the crazy one is the five year old, he's my mascot (except that his tail isn't bushy).

I came to the name because everything else I thought of as a possible business name was already being used a thousand times by other people (according to Google searches) and I was tossing a ball in the house for the dog and answered a phone call from a friend who asked how I was and I responded in my typical fashion "crazy! how are you?" and then things just clicked and "Crazy Dog Creative" was born. I talked to my friend the illustrator about the name the next day, he liked it, drew my dog for me and the rest is history. The little green burst above the dogs head was supposed to be a lightbulb but as we finished the drawing and logo the burst worked better than a lightbulb.

As far as reactions to it. I have people call me just because they like my business name, also it is very distinctive and easy to remember. I've never received a negative comment about my business name and have in fact received some business because the person doing the shopping for a graphic designer was a dog person and knows me from retriever training. Local competition here in the corner of the big metro area I live in includes "Freestyle Graphics" "Gator Graphics" "A guys name Graphic Design" "Panic Creative" "Graphic Connection" "Logoman" and I'm sure there are others but those are the ones that pop in my brain to start with.

Does that help? Does it answer your question?

[Jagella]

I came to the name because everything else I thought of as a possible business name was already being used a thousand times by other people (according to Google searches) and I was tossing a ball in the house for the dog and answered a phone call from a friend who asked how I was and I responded in my typical fashion "crazy! how are you?" and then things just clicked and "Crazy Dog Creative" was born. I talked to my friend the illustrator about the name the next day, he liked it, drew my dog for me and the rest is history. The little green burst above the dogs head was supposed to be a lightbulb but as we finished the drawing and logo the burst worked better than a lightbulb.

Well, this isn't what they're teaching me in school about concept development, but it seems to work for you. Good results are the objective, of course. I must wonder, though, if other designs might be even more effective. If I didn't know better, and I saw your logo, I would have to do some investigating to see what business you're in. If I happened to see another logo near yours that better reflected graphic design services, I'm sure I'd check the other business out first.


As far as reactions to it. I have people call me just because they like my business name...

That's good, but we want them to call and ask you to do a project for them.


I've never received a negative comment about my business name and have in fact received some business because the person doing the shopping for a graphic designer was a dog person and knows me from retriever training.

Now we're getting somewhere. If we knew that a lot of people in your target market are dog lovers, then we'd know that the dog on your logo is related to your marketing efforts. According to the Humane Society (http://www.hsus.org/pets/issues_affecting_our_pets/pet_overpopulation_and_ownership_statistics/us_pet_ownership_statistics.html), 39 percent of households in the US own at least one dog. We'd need to probe deeper to see how dog ownership might relate to people seeking graphics services.


Local competition here in the corner of the big metro area I live in includes "Freestyle Graphics" "Gator Graphics" "A guys name Graphic Design" "Panic Creative" "Graphic Connection" "Logoman" and I'm sure there are others but those are the ones that pop in my brain to start with.

Does that help? Does it answer your question?

It's a step in the right direction. Gator Graphics uses an animal name in its name, but it also uses a word related to its line of business, “Graphics.” One possibility might be to add a word like “Graphics” or “Designs” to your business's name, or replace “Creative” with one of those words.

Anyway, we're just skimming the surface here. To really know what might work for you, we'd need to do more researching and brainstorming. I think we can improve your brand identity, but we should be careful to get it right. I'm game if you are.

Jagella

[vangogh]

Well, this isn't what they're teaching me in school about concept development, but it seems to work for you

Joe what you learn in school is theory in an ideal situation. The real world is many things. Ideal is not one of them. Just because a teacher tells you something doesn't make it true. Learn from your own observations and experiences. Accept the teachings of others, but never take what others teach you on faith alone.

[Blessed]

Joe what you learn in school is theory in an ideal situation. The real world is many things. Ideal is not one of them. Just because a teacher tells you something doesn't make it true. Learn from your own observations and experiences. Accept the teachings of others, but never take what others teach you on faith alone.

I'm going to second Vangogh's observation here. I know lots of companies who have memorable names, excellent products and services but whose name doesn't immediately identify what they do. All of my marketing materials (except for my business card) say Graphic Design & Marketing - so if someone see's an ad for my business or one of my postcards, etc... they know what I do.

The calls I get because someone likes my name are because they know they need a graphic designer they've run across my name either by referral or an ad etc... and it's an initial contact. The word "creative" in my business name is the clue to what I do. My name doesn't sell a job - samples of my work, my professionalism and simply connecting with the potential client are what sell a job.

[Jagella]

Joe what you learn in school is theory in an ideal situation. The real world is many things. Ideal is not one of them. Just because a teacher tells you something doesn't make it true. Learn from your own observations and experiences. Accept the teachings of others, but never take what others teach you on faith alone.

I understand perfectly well, Steve. That's why I'm here at the SBF, after all.

Why do you think schools are often off the mark regarding the “real world”? One reason I've thought of is that what they teach in school tries to cover all the bases, but when a student enters the work force, her employer doesn't care about all the bases—only the bases the business tries to cover. For instance, I have a class coming up that covers HTML and CSS, but I may end up doing animations and printed documents. At this point, though, neither I nor my school knows what for sure I'll be doing.

Jagella

[vangogh]

Lots of reasons for the difference. Schools are good at teaching theory. They're good at getting you to see things differently. They're good at training your mind to work in certain ways. They're good at research. They generally aren't good at teaching what goes on in the real world.

I'm not one who thinks school is bad, I learned a lot in college about a lot of different things and it helped shape who I became later in life.

But schools have problems teaching real world practical things at times. Consider technology and how fast it changes. School curricula can't change as quickly so what you're often learning is what was used yesterday. For example it won't surprise me if your html class teaches you how to build a site with frames. No one builds sites with frames anymore, but since it's part of html you'll no doubt learn it. On the other hand someone like me is actually experimenting with what you can do with html and css. I see a problem like how to code a specific kind of menu and play with the code until it does what I want.

One other thing to consider is the old phrase "Those who can do and those who can't teach" The phrase is really unfair to teachers. Teachers are good people and teaching is a skill unto its own, but there is a grain of truth to it. Teachers are not out in the real world doing. They're inside a school environment which is very different. Schools are about learning theory under ideal conditions.

If you've ever taken a physics class every new thing you learn often assumes friction = 0 or some other thing equals 0 or infinite or absolute or some extreme endpoint. That's done because it's easier to understand the theory being taught in special cases like that. But those extreme cases don't really exist. Technically they do, but practically they don't.

It's not that school is a bad place to learn. I'm probably in the minority here in thinking that a college education is important, but what you learn in school is theory and in the real world what you need is application of theory.

[Jagella]

Lots of reasons for the difference. Schools are good at teaching theory. They're good at getting you to see things differently. They're good at training your mind to work in certain ways. They're good at research. They generally aren't good at teaching what goes on in the real world.

I've thought a lot about this issue. Theory tends to be idealistic, but rarely do people live up to ideals. That said, what they end up actually doing in business or on the job is not necessarily better or wiser than the theory they're taught in school. People can get sloppy or lazy, or they may just forget what they were taught in school. Take taxation, for instance. You can take a tax course in college and be taught all the laws you or your business should observe. Of course, in the “real world” people make mistakes when filing their taxes or cheat on them. I hope you agree that the practice is not better than the theory!

Getting back to logo design, I'm well aware that “winging it” or asking an illustrator or two for advice may result in a good logo that clients go for. My school teaches that in developing concepts for designs including logos, you should be more systematic. The theory they teach involves knowing the client, the client's needs, and the client's target market. Once you have that information, you proceed to creating thumbnail sketches, have them reviewed by other designers (if possible), create comps, and present them to the client for review and approval. I like this process, and plan to apply it to my work in “the real world.”


One other thing to consider is the old phrase "Those who can do and those who can't teach" The phrase is really unfair to teachers. Teachers are good people and teaching is a skill unto its own, but there is a grain of truth to it. Teachers are not out in the real world doing.

Well, mine are. You can check my facilitator's website (http://www.aliciamarkey.com/). She's doing as well as teaching.


If you've ever taken a physics class every new thing you learn often assumes friction = 0 or some other thing equals 0 or infinite or absolute or some extreme endpoint. That's done because it's easier to understand the theory being taught in special cases like that. But those extreme cases don't really exist. Technically they do, but practically they don't.

Scientific theory is often idealistic. When formulating theories, it's easier to understand them using simple numbers. Doing so doesn't mean that the theories cannot or will not apply to the real world—you just need to plug in the numbers you're actually using when you apply the theory. Accounting is taught in much the same way.


I'm probably in the minority here in thinking that a college education is important, but what you learn in school is theory and in the real world what you need is application of theory.

After spending over a year at the Art Institute of Pittsburgh, I believe I wouldn't have been able to do it on my own. Some people may be able to rely solely on self-teaching, but the kinds of opportunities and the rigorous learning environment provided by a formal education would be difficult to come up on one's own, in my opinion.

Jagella

[vangogh]

Joe it's not about getting sloppy or lazy in the real world. Like I said I'm someone who has been to school and thinks it was a valuable part of my education. It's not about making mistakes, but rather school isn't teaching you how things really work. They teach an idealized version of how things work. Valuable yes, but you can't rely on things ever being ideal.

It's not about theory or practice being better or worse than the other. It's about the fact that you're clients aren't going to site around waiting for you to follow theories. They just want results. Sometimes delivering results means deviating from theory.


The theory they teach involves knowing the client, the client's needs, and the client's target market. Once you have that information, you proceed to creating thumbnail sketches, have them reviewed by other designers (if possible), create comps, and present them to the client for review and approval. I like this process, and plan to apply it to my work in “the real world.”

Sounds like a reasonable process. Here's my question. What are you going to do the first time a client doesn't tell you about their business? It's nice to think clients will answer all your questions, but I'm going tell you write now, most won't. I'll bet every other designer here would echo the above. So you have to rework your process. Yes the beginning of every site should begin with information gathering. You should spend some time getting as much information from your client as possible and you should spend some time researching the industry. But you also have to be prepared for the fact that sometimes that information won't be there.

Another aspect that never enters into the equation when it comes to school is money. It's great to want to do every step in the process to design a great site, but what happens when you're client isn't willing to spend the money for your time? You have two choices. Move on to another client or figure out a way to still deliver without going through every step in the process.


You can check my facilitator's website. She's doing as well as teaching

She has a nice site and my apologies if it came across like I was insulting teachers. I didn't mean what I said that way. Just understand that not every theory or process you're taught will work in the practical application.


After spending over a year at the Art Institute of Pittsburgh, I believe I wouldn't have been able to do it on my own.

It's great that the school has taught you what it has. And again I'm not knocking school. But know that school won't be there forever. At some point you're going to have to learn to teach yourself new things.

[SteveC]

Sounds like a reasonable process. Here's my question. What are you going to do the first time a client doesn't tell you about their business? It's nice to think clients will answer all your questions, but I'm going tell you write now, most won't. I'll bet every other designer here would echo the above. So you have to rework your process. Yes the beginning of every site should begin with information gathering. You should spend some time getting as much information from your client as possible and you should spend some time researching the industry. But you also have to be prepared for the fact that sometimes that information won't be there.


Clients come in all shapes and forms... they all have different requirements and different values... some will give you information others won't... some you will like and others you won't... working in the real world teaches you how to deliver results for all of your clients and not just those that fit your predefined profiles.

One thing that you should learn and chances are you will not are how to communicate effectively with people, how to sell to people and how to negoiate and win and what to do when things go wrong... I bet you are not being taught any of this... but if you look at each of them seperately they in themselves will help you become a better designer... for example if you know how to sell... your designs can use this knowledge to sell more of your clients products... etc... etc... these are what you learn in the real world and especially if you are going into business on your own... because you either learn or you starve.



She has a nice site and my apologies if it came across like I was insulting teachers. I didn't mean what I said that way. Just understand that not every theory or process you're taught will work in the practical application.


I'm not going to comment on this, other than to say... I've known lots of so called designers here in Australia, the US and the UK, that teach in some form or another simply to earn money to live on, because they cannot cut it as a designer alone... which fit in with your statement that those that can, do and those that can't teach...

[Blessed]

Clients come in all shapes and forms... they all have different requirements and different values... some will give you information others won't... some you will like and others you won't... working in the real world teaches you how to deliver results for all of your clients and not just those that fit your predefined profiles.

One thing that you should learn and chances are you will not are how to communicate effectively with people, how to sell to people and how to negoiate and win and what to do when things go wrong... I bet you are not being taught any of this... but if you look at each of them seperately they in themselves will help you become a better designer... for example if you know how to sell... your designs can use this knowledge to sell more of your clients products... etc... etc... these are what you learn in the real world and especially if you are going into business on your own... because you either learn or you starve.

This is so true. The hardest things you will have to learn if you want to be successful is how to communicate with people, how to read between the lines of what they are saying, how to ask your questions in a way that will get the answers you need - and often those questions don't look or sound like "who is your target market." Sometimes the question sounds like "how has business been?" or "what do you think about that new store across town" or even... "how is your son doing at college?"

I could be way off base here but my observation has been that the best and most successful designers (or any business people for that matter) are those who learn how to develop rapport with their clients - those whose clients come to think of them as "friends" even though the relationship never goes beyond business. If you can't sell you won't be successful - part of successful selling is being able to carry on a conversation with people moving quickly through "how's the family" to "what can I do for you today" You cannot spend all your time hearing about so and so's new baby but you can spend 1 to 3 minutes on that and then move on to business - for me, it builds relationships, I ask about those specific things my client's have mentioned to me - one of my clients works with a center for autistic children, another has a son in college, another has a crazy dog they like to talk about, another one is getting married this summer, one of them has been fighting (and winning) a battle against cancer - these things don't relate to the graphic design work I do for them, but I ask about these things, and more importantly I deliver quality work - I get a lot of repeat business, a lot of referrals and the odd jobs - wedding invites, birth announcements, posters for a party, etc... people remember me long after the job is done because I've developed a relationship with them, they keep my business card because it's attractive and they remember my business name because it is unique.

[vangogh]

Clients come in all shapes and forms... they all have different requirements and different values... some will give you information others won't... some you will like and others you won't... working in the real world teaches you how to deliver results for all of your clients and not just those that fit your predefined profiles.

Absolutely. Every client is different and you have to be different with them. The best sites are those where the designer and the client collaborate. But often you need to facilitate that collaboration. In order to be a good designer you need to be part communicator and even part psychologist.

Joe those are the things you can't learn in school. Steve is completely right about the predefined profiles. That's what you learn in school. You learn theory about a process for an idealized version of a client. The problem is that client doesn't exist. That doesn't mean what you learn in school isn't useful, but you have to learn to adapt beyond school.


This is so true. The hardest things you will have to learn if you want to be successful is how to communicate with people, how to read between the lines of what they are saying, how to ask your questions in a way that will get the answers you need - and often those questions don't look or sound like "who is your target market." Sometimes the question sounds like "how has business been?" or "what do you think about that new store across town" or even... "how is your son doing at college?"

Yep. The trick is learning how to pull the information out of a client. I do have clients who will easily answer the question about who is their target market, but most won't be able to give you that answer. Sometimes the answers come out in idle chit chat. You ask some general questions and listen between the lines for your answers.

It's what I meant above by being a psychologist. I've had some clients who I found difficult to work with early on. Not because they were bad people, but because I had a hard time getting the information I needed to build an effective site. Over time as we got to know each other it became easier. I knew the person better and was better able to read between the lines.

Theory and processes are great, but you'll find you need to break out of them if you really want to be a designer. And in order to do that you need to actually be working with real clients and real designs.

[Jagella]

It's not about making mistakes, but rather school isn't teaching you how things really work. They teach an idealized version of how things work. Valuable yes, but you can't rely on things ever being ideal.

Sure, Steve, I believe that's understood. I understand that people don't always adhere strictly to what they're taught in school, but I must reiterate that practice doesn't make theory wrong; it just means that people don't always do what may be best.


It's about the fact that you're clients aren't going to site around waiting for you to follow theories. They just want results. Sometimes delivering results means deviating from theory.

Absolutely! I've even discussed this issue with other students. How do we get those ornery clients to listen to us and do it right?


What are you going to do the first time a client doesn't tell you about their business?

In that case I won't have that information. In fact, it's happened to me more than once. I'll deviate from the theory, as you put it, but that doesn't make the theory wrong or useless.


She has a nice site and my apologies if it came across like I was insulting teachers. I didn't mean what I said that way

Actually, I agree with you about a lot of teachers. In many cases they may turn to teaching if other kinds of work gets too tough. However, the facilitators (I don't like that term, but that's what they're called at the Art Institute) that I've worked with have all done work in the design profession prior to teaching.


At some point you're going to have to learn to teach yourself new things.

Steve, I've taught myself Photoshop, Illustrator, Dreamweaver, Acrobat Professional, HTML, CSS, and currently I'm hot on the heels of becoming a capable Flash animation creator through self study. And when I get the time, I work with my school work a bit.

Anyway, thanks for the debate. Did you ever hear the old saying that there's three sides to every story? Your side, my side, and the truth?

I'll keep you posted on my progress with the logo redesign.

Jagella