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View Full Version : Templates or no Templates. That is the question.



Harold Mansfield
04-03-2013, 11:27 AM
Another thread got heated over the use of templates, which I vigorously defended for many reasons:


1. Everyone doesn't have the budget to have something built from scratch from the ground up, and there are many solutions out there that will solve their problem. As a web designer, whether or not you help them is up to you. It's perfectly acceptable to choose the cleints you work with. I do.

2. If you are dealing with Content Management Systems such as WordPress, Joomla, V-Bulletin, Drupal and so on, you have to know how to work with templates. That's how they work. Most people don't want or have the money to have a CMS built from scratch.

3. You ALL use templates. They are part of everything on the web and business from your stationery, your invoicing systems, your ecommerce software, your operating system, your smart phone apps, and so on and so on. You design in photoshop? It's a template architecture that you are using to create something. Adobe has already created the standard that you are working in.

4. Just about EVERY SINGLE website, blog, news outlet, and online magazine that you visit online, is built on a template architecture.

Now, that doesn't mean that you aren't or can't design something original. But the foundation of how the web works, is templates. Every website starts with the same foundation of code that makes it work. NO ONE is reinventing the web or the wheel every time they create a website or a document. No matter what platform, you can only get your design to function by using the base foundation of code that makes it work so that people can access it.

I know that many are only thinking one way...that when you say "template" you mean a complete, pre-made design that you use as is. Sure, that's one way and there are 1000's available to use as such. But I think the "non-template" people aren't being realistic, that they are somehow doing something completely original every time they create something that works on the web. The standard has already been built for you. All you are doing is designing a template that works on it.

Now, as I mentioned, every web designer is not the same, but the core of the service is to be able to provide the service that people are looking for. Some people specialize in certain areas and some people will work across the board on many platforms.
But when you say that "you don't work with templates", yeah...you actually do. Every day. You're a template builder.

Now maybe you don't purchase and use ready made designs as is. That's another story. But don't discount that either as if it's not a credible solution for some people. Every business deserves a chance to get online and there are many solutions for all kinds of cleints and all kinds of budgets.

To imply that using a ready made template is somehow "sub standard" and that every business owner needs to spend thousands to have everything built from scratch is not only completely wrong, but a little snooty. Not even Fortune 500 companies follow that logic.

Some of the biggest websites online are just customized templates: Huffington Post, Gizmodo, TechCrunch, The New York Times, The Washington Post, Mashable, CNN, GM, Forbes, UPS, Sony, Volkswagen, and 100's of U.S. Government and other Government Websites around the world just to name a few. They all started with a base template of code that works on thier specific platform ( many of which use WordPress or Joomla) and built a design and added functions on top of it.

It's not easier to customize a template that works on a specific platform. It's actually harder. Much harder. So, if it sounds like I take it personally when people look down thier nose at web designers who work with template architectures, I do. 9 times out of 10, they have 5x's the skills of people who only work in HTML.

No way a graphic designer only builds a site like GM. But someone who works with template architectures, did.

Web design is a competitive business, but we don't need to look down our nose at the many different ways to do it just because you don't provide that service or understand how it works.

Just thought that needed to be said.

Thoughts?

Wozcreative
04-03-2013, 01:02 PM
I'm all for templates, but there are different types of templates:

1. Blank Frameworks
— You use existing headers, footers, content, sidebars, usually is blank with really little CSS. It makes the process quicker, no developer really works from scratch anymore. It allows people to be creative if the budget is there.

2. Completed Templates like themeforest.com
— Basically taking the existing content and plugging it in.

3. Template from Themeforest.com
— Again, repeat of #2, but the great designers (AND if the budget is there), can take an existing framework/template and totally re-design it, essentially treating it like a "blank" template. CSS functions are already there, you are just changing a lot to make things look much much different. This can take just as long as #1 to do, or not.. depending on how you do it.

So, yes templates are ubiquitous now. It just depends on how "far" you are interested in going with them, to each their own I say. If you have clients that can only afford 1,500, and you are ok with that, then going the #2 route is fine. But personally #2 is boring and I feel like a monkey. These clients are typically unorganized, needy and change their minds frequently and you end up spending more time on it than needed. It's my experience and why the type of work burns me out. I'm just not built for that stuff!

Harold Mansfield
04-03-2013, 01:13 PM
But personally #2 is boring and I feel like a monkey.
Sure, I like the creative process as much as anyone. But I don't do this as a hobby artist. I'm here to make money. If I can grab a quick $500 doing what someone asks for installing WordPress, a template and the obligatory plug ins, and then direct them to my blog, set them up with some tutorial videos to help with the rest.... I don't feel like a monkey at all. I feel like I just made $250 an hour and helped someone solve a problem that no one else would help them with.

You'd be surprised how many web designers turn people away because they feel like the work is beneath them. And you'd be equally surprised how many of those people turn into additional income throughout the year.

They may only have $500 today, but throughout the year they can be worth thousands in additional work and referrals.



These clients are typically unorganized, needy and change their minds frequently and you end up spending more time on it than needed. It's my experience and why the type of work burns me out. I'm just not built for that stuff!

Ha. Every client is like that. That's why I send everyone a checklist of their responsibilities and how to gather their materials, insure that they respond to my communications within a reasonable amount of time, and put an end date on every project.
If it goes over because of them, they pay more in the final invoice. But they go into it with a clear understanding of how to get exactly what they want and what they need to do. And I make it easy for them.

It wasn't always like that. I've learned.

Wozcreative
04-03-2013, 01:16 PM
You'd be suprised how many web designers turn people away because they feel like the work is beneath them. And you'd be equally surprised how many of those people turn into additional income throughout the year.



I started my own business not to have to deal with things I don't enjoy. I could always go sell at mcdonalds for "Additional income" but I won't. Nothing wrong with turning down work if you are busy and have the luxury of choosing :) Happy wallet, happy worker.

Harold Mansfield
04-03-2013, 01:21 PM
I started my own business not to have to deal with things I don't enjoy. I could always go sell at mcdonalds for "Additional income" but I won't. Nothing wrong with turning down work if you are busy and have the luxury of choosing :) Happy wallet, happy worker.

Of course. It's your business, you should do it your way. I didn't mean to infer anything different.

I don't take every client and there are some websites that I absolutely will not build, and some people that I will not work with no matter how much money they have.

billbenson
04-03-2013, 07:26 PM
These examples go outside of web design. I'm a salesman. Since its my company I can turn down orders. Every day people call and have technical questions. Sometimes I just refer them to the manufacturers customer service department. Sometimes I answer or research their question. It depends on the customer and also how booked up I am. Also if I might learn something by investigating the customers application of our product. Its a technical product and there are always things to learn.

billbenson
04-03-2013, 07:36 PM
As a side note i.e. temporary hijack, its amazing how many people will come back and order from me because of product knowledge and I try to help them even though I don't think I'm going to get the business.

Then again, I had a customer last week who emailed me the prices he got it from another vendor at a much lower price. He was trying to be a dick, but actually it helps when you know what your competitors are selling stuff for (discounting). I wouldn't have sold it to them for that price. If someone else wants to sell stuff and make a 2% margin, that's their option. I won't do it.

Harold Mansfield
04-06-2013, 10:37 AM
As a side note i.e. temporary hijack, its amazing how many people will come back and order from me because of product knowledge and I try to help them even though I don't think I'm going to get the business.


Absolutely. You really need to take a second to listen between the lines with people. Some of my biggest jobs have come from people that at first seemed like they were wasting my time, but something about them made me take the time to help.
Just as some people try to run all over you, others play dumb or vulnerable to test your service skills and ethics.

vangogh
04-12-2013, 01:54 AM
I started my own business not to have to deal with things I don't enjoy.

I feel the same way.

Some of this question depends a lot on how you define a template.


Some of the biggest websites online are just customized templates: Huffington Post, Gizmodo, TechCrunch, The New York Times, The Washington Post, Mashable, CNN, GM, Forbes, UPS, Sony, Volkswagen, and 100's of U.S. Government and other Government Websites around the world just to name a few. They all started with a base template of code that works on thier specific platform ( many of which use WordPress or Joomla) and built a design and added functions on top of it.

I disagree. I'm not familiar enough with every one of the sites you mention so maybe some are essentially templates or themes, but I don't think the process of how their sites came to be is what you're describing. I don't think The NY TImes for example grabbed a copy of WordPress, took the default theme and started customizing it. In fact I'm pretty sure the main Times site is a completely custom job. People even made fun of them a couple of years ago when they moved much of the site behind a paywall. They spent a ton of money for what many suggested any content management system could do.

Most of these sites are designed based on business goals and what content they're going to be placing on the site. They might turn to one of the common content management systems as a platform, but it doesn't mean they're started with a template and tweaking it to their needs. There are parts of websites that become standard, because there's a reason for doing something a certain way. For example it's common for a logo to be located in the upper left. The reason is most people read from left to right and when landing on a page one of the first areas they'll notice is the upper left. Since a business wants visitors to know their name it makes sense to place a logo there. But that doesn't mean any site that does that is basically a template.

I think Woz has it right. At one end you have frameworks that are mostly blank, but they're things you're going to use on every site and they make the process quicker. Every website has the basic html, head, body structure. There's no reason to write all those tags from scratch. You probably fill the head section of every document with the same code so again why write it from scratch. Frameworks get more complex and you have complete grid systems and even complete theme frameworks for WordPress and Drupal, etc.

On the other end are the completed themes and templates where you take them and add your content and you're done. You can customize them, but they're made so you don't have to. There's nothing wrong with themes and templates like these. There's a large market for them because they don't cost a lot. The typical person looking to put up a site doesn't want to spend thousands of dollars on a design. They just want a site and $100 or less for a theme is often fine. Some will go a little further and either hire someone to customize it or work on it themselves.

If what you mean by templates is reusing code and techniques to make design and development quicker then sure everyone is using templates. It makes sense to reuse things and not reinvent the wheel on every project. However, when people talk about templates they're mainly referring to the other extreme where everything is built and all you have to do is plug content in. That's not done on every site. A lot of sites start by defining goals for the site and go from there.

There are markets for both template driven and non-template driven sites and their are pros and cons to both. Templates are going to cost less and the expense of having a generic design that isn't specifically made for your business and your goals. Custom design costs more, but has the advantage of being built specifically to achieve the goals for your business.

Harold Mansfield
04-12-2013, 10:34 AM
If what you mean by templates is reusing code and techniques to make design and development quicker then sure everyone is using templates. It makes sense to reuse things and not reinvent the wheel on every project. However, when people talk about templates they're mainly referring to the other extreme where everything is built and all you have to do is plug content in. That's not done on every site. A lot of sites start by defining goals for the site and go from there.
Yes this is what I mean. Also that WordPress and other CMS's work on a Template architecture called themes. They are all templates.




There are markets for both template driven and non-template driven sites and their are pros and cons to both. Templates are going to cost less and the expense of having a generic design that isn't specifically made for your business and your goals. Custom design costs more, but has the advantage of being built specifically to achieve the goals for your business.

Exactly.

However, I don't know why everyone keeps assuming that a template has to be generic or that you can't customize one specifically for a certain business. That is EXACTLY what customizing a template is. Making it personal to the client. When I service an already built site, I'm not servicing a custom design. Once it is installed on the platform, they are all templates to me. I don't care who built them or how. The custom built ones are no better than some of the mass distributed templates.

All of these "custom design" people, are not as "custom" as they proclaim to be. I spot the same graphics sets, icons, buttons, sliders, images, even color combinations all over the web on sites that people will swear was built 100% custom from the ground up.

When you are servicing someone's site where they have purchased a template from a designer and you need DOC's...you can get them. Support? Most reputable designers have it. Updates. Almost all of the time. Custom built templates? The designers is usually nowhere to be found, and there are never updates or follow up support to the client.

If I'm starting out with a framework, it's either mine, or I've already vetted it.

On an average day, I'm not going to charge a client an extra $2k to do something that I know in my heart can be done for less, just for the satisfaction of saying "I built 100% of it from scratch".

That's just as unscrupulous as the template guy that charges $4k and claims to have built everything from scratch. And I see a lot of pissed off people that have been taken advantage of on both. Especially when their last designer is nowhere to be found, and they've done something proprietary (in the spirit of making everything custom for no reason) that conflicts with the latest update of their ecommerce software and their site has been down for weeks.

But then again, my business model is different. I do maintenance and repairs, so I see the other side of unnecessary custom coding that leaves website owners screwed a year later. Or "custom" graphics that cost a client $1000, when the EXACT same thing was available for $50 (Which is probably what they purchased and just changed the colors). I have probably seen more templates that were represented as original than most and it is very unscrupulous. The fact that I know templates, is how I catch where people have been ripped off.

I have to know templates because people come to me with problems with them. ESPECIALLY the custom coded ones. I've had my hands inside so many frameworks, designers, short code sets, and every possible configuration, .. known to the web, helping people fix, set up, or customize some of the most complicated template designs I have ever seen from designers I have never heard of, with docs in half Russian, Croatian, Indian, and everything else.

They are out there and they aren't going away.