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KristineS
02-06-2013, 12:49 PM
The question in the title has been wandering around my head for a while and I thought I'd throw it out and see what you guys thought about it. To me, good writing is pretty subjective. I know there are grammar rules and spelling rules and word usage rules, but I don't feel like there's an absolute measuring stick as to what "good" writing is. I've seen pieces of writing that other people proclaimed to be good that I thought were crap. I've seen stuff other people hated that I thought was pretty good. What do the rest of you think? Is there some objective measurement for what good writing is, or is good writing mostly in the eye of the beholder?

Freelancier
02-06-2013, 02:04 PM
Totally in the eye of the beholder. Some people love a particular author, but not everyone. Think about Tom Clancy. HUGE number of books sold, but only to a certain population, not to everyone. Whether it's your topic of choice or how you go about approaching the topic, decisions you make sure the writing process either limit or expand your audience.

So the first question when you're writing something is: who is your audience and how can I best reach them?

Did you know there's a set of "rules" that help anything you write go viral? The problem is that everyone has read the same rules. So now crap goes viral. And we end up wasting our time with "5 Ways to Talk To Alien Invaders." (Rule: make sure there's a number in the title). Ok, I'm just ranting now... :o

Business Attorney
02-06-2013, 02:29 PM
So the first question when you're writing something is: who is your audience and how can I best reach them?

That is probably the first question but the second question close behind is: what am I trying to do? Persuade? Educate? Entertain?

In writing contracts, one of my major goals is to eliminate ambiguity to the greatest extent possible. That means using the same terms consistently within a document. Synonyms may add variety and readability to a story, but in a legal document they can needlessly introduce ambiguity.

Similarly, if I am writing on a topic that is intended to entertain rather than educate the reader, I feel that I have more freedom to use creative sentence structures and word choices that might seem out of place in an article trying to convey particular information.

Dan Furman
02-06-2013, 03:09 PM
Assuming copywriting here: Writing is good if the intended audience reads it, and an acceptable percentage convert.

I don't care if My English teacher liked it, if my wife liked it, or (to a degree) if my client liked it. All I care about is if the customer/end reader liked it.

Harold Mansfield
02-07-2013, 11:14 AM
I'm not a trained or educated copywriter, but I just know when I read it, if it works or not.
I have a few basic rules that I try to follow:

Get to the point. Say as much with as few words as possible.
Don't repeat the same word in close proximity of each other.
Don't talk over the heads of your readers.
Break copy up into short digestible chunks.
Be careful with humor. It's not always appropriate, and everyone is not going to think you are funny.
When possible use images to reinforce the point, and style your copy.


And still, I need to read it a few times to see if it flows properly. The Thesaurus is my best friend.

KristineS
02-07-2013, 01:09 PM
Lots of good points here. I especially like the point that what good writing might be can vary based on audience and purpose. David made a really good point with his contract illustration. Good writing in a contract is going to be clear an unambiguous writing. That sort of writing wouldn't necessarily work in other areas. Dan has a good point too, with copywriting, good writing is writing that sells the product or service or company. Clearly the audience and the purpose change the meaning of what "good" is when it comes to writing.

vangogh
02-07-2013, 03:57 PM
Very subjective indeed. It does depend on who your audience will be and what you want to communicate to them. One of my first instincts is to say good writing is that which communicates a chosen message to a chosen audience and yet I'd consider James Joyce one of the greatest writers in history and much of his work is near inaccessible to many who choose to read him.

There are different styles of writing for different messages and audiences and different styles of writing can communicate the same message to the same audience. Beyond the audience is the context in which they're reading. Sometimes I want to read something that's difficult and I have to read it again and again to get at something I think worth the effort. Other times I read for a quick distraction and solely want to be kept entertained for the duration of my reading.

In the end I'll stick my instincts. Good writing communicates a message to an audience, but there's a lot of variety in what the writer is trying to communicate and how and there's a lot of variety in who the audience is and whether or not they're receptive to the message.


In writing contracts, one of my major goals is to eliminate ambiguity to the greatest extent possible.

I wish the writers of all legal documents felt the same way. As a whole they are some of the most vague and ambiguous documents I've ever seen. :)

Dan Furman
02-11-2013, 03:04 AM
I'm not a trained or educated copywriter, but I just know when I read it, if it works or not.
I have a few basic rules that I try to follow:

Get to the point. Say as much with as few words as possible.
Don't repeat the same word in close proximity of each other.
Don't talk over the heads of your readers.
Break copy up into short digestible chunks.
Be careful with humor. It's not always appropriate, and everyone is not going to think you are funny.
When possible use images to reinforce the point, and style your copy.


And still, I need to read it a few times to see if it flows properly. The Thesaurus is my best friend.

This is basically 80% of what makes copywriting good. Good post.

DeniseTaylor
02-13-2013, 02:36 PM
Yep. It depends upon audience. However, a rule of thumb (besides spelling, grammar, etc.) is how engaging is the content? If it's drab and sounds like an encyclopedia, it's not likely going to work very well. If it's web content, you'll lose visitors. If it's offline content, you'll put people to sleep. So it has to be active, lively and engaging.

vangogh
02-14-2013, 11:52 PM
If it's drab and sounds like an encyclopedia, it's not likely going to work very well

True. Then again there are probably audiences who want it like that. Just the facts.

There have been lots of good points here about what makes for good writing. Ultimately I think it comes down to your audience and what you're trying to communicate. You'd likely write differently if it's copy on your commercial website than you would talk to your friends in a text message. You'd write differently if your audience is group of astrophysicists reading a scientific paper than you would if your audience is a teenagers reading your latest fantasy novel. Writing well for any one of those examples would probably be considered poor writing for all of the others.

joa
02-26-2013, 06:08 AM
I think a lot of the most engaging pieces of writing are those that display opinions. You obviously have to be careful with overly controversial posts, but if you're completely backing up or opposing someones opinion it can spark interesting, readable debate.

vangogh
03-01-2013, 12:42 AM
Opinions can definitely be engaging and you're right you do have to be careful with the controversy. Unfortunately i think too many people create controversy just for the sake of creating controversy, because it draws traffic. I come across too many articles with an incendiary title that has little to do with what's actually being written.

When it's an honest opinion though, it's usually a good read.

Gabe
03-01-2013, 07:11 AM
Good business writing is simple, clear and concise. It using styling to emphasize important point to make it scannable. Large blocks of text are scary and get skipped.

Relevant: 10 Tips on Writing from David Ogilvy | Brain Pickings (http://www.brainpickings.org/index.php/2012/02/07/david-ogilvy-on-writing/)

DavidDeke
03-03-2013, 06:47 PM
I believe captivating your audience with a good story really keeps them engaged to the end. Have you ever read an article in a magazine or newspaper about a personal story that happened to the person writing it, only to find out it was an advertisement for a product? Great form of advertising. I also like bullet point feature and benefit type of ads too. Quick and to the point.

vangogh
03-12-2013, 02:26 AM
captivating your audience with a good story really keeps them engaged to the end

I know what you mean. Human beings tell stories. It's how we've communicated with each other since the beginning. If you can tell a good story people will listen to the end.

jacksarlo
04-12-2013, 02:06 PM
I think only way to know is to test, if you write something (article, web copy, salesetter) it should have a goal: to get a sale/lead a click on the bio link, etc. So test how well the content you wrote is performing using tracking tools, isn't that good idea to know whether people love your content or hate it?

vangogh
04-14-2013, 12:40 PM
Tracking is certainly appropriate with certain kinds of writing. If there are specific actions you want people to take after reading then yes, it's a must. If the writing isn't meant so much to lead to action and is more about offering something for people to read and enjoy then tracking might not be as important. You can still check things like time spent on the page to see if people are indeed reading.

I think it really comes down to understanding your audience. Where tracking is concerned you have to figure out how to get the stats of the people you think are your audience instead of tracking everyone who lands on the page. It's possible only 10% of the people who land on the page are your audience. Including the other 90% when looking at your stats could give you a false impression of how well you did or didn't do with the writing.

KristineS
04-15-2013, 01:15 PM
If the writing is designed to promote a specific action then yes, the determination of whether the writing is "good" or not will be how often people who read it do the specific action it promotes. As Vangogh pointed out, not all writing is designed to get someone to take a specific action.

I write a blog for an industry magazine and the articles I write are designed to educate and provoke thought. I don't necessarily want people to take a specific action, I just hope they find the blog useful enough and interesting enough to keep reading. I suppose the measure there is the comments and recommendations on Facebook and Twitter the blog receives.

Measuring and tracking are very good things and shouldn't be neglected, but some of what determines whether a person feels a piece of writing is "good" or not is purely subjective. One person's writing style may not be another person's cup of tea.

vangogh
04-16-2013, 12:22 AM
I wouldn't say whether or not a piece of writing is good or not is purely subjective. I do think there are some objective standards that can and should be applied. I do know what you mean though. There is a certain amount of subjectivity to what constitutes good writing. The word good is a subjective one so there would have to be. I think the subjective part can come in due to the audience. What's appropriate writing for one audience might not be appropriate for another. It's easy to see how different people could equally judge the same piece of writing as both good and bad.

There are objective measures though. Presumably most, if not all, writing has some goal in mind and how well it meets those goals can be applied to how well the writing is. You mention writing designed to educate and promote thought. If the writing educates or promotes thought then it was good. If it doesn't then perhaps it wasn't so good or it was presented to the wrong audience.

KristineS
04-16-2013, 01:22 PM
Yeah, I suppose all writing has a goal, even writing that's written purely as entertainment has the goal of entertaining the reader. So I suppose one measure of how good or bad a piece of writing is would be whether or not it meets that goal. By the same token, though, judgements of whether something is entertaining or educational can be very subjective. I'm not sure there's a hard and fast standard that can be applied across all types of writing to help measure which writing is "good" and which isn't.

vangogh
04-17-2013, 01:08 AM
judgements of whether something is entertaining or educational can be very subjective.

True. It depends on the specific goals of the writing, but the subjectivity usually enters in the judgement of whether it meets its goals. If the goal is a click on a website you can objectively measure. If the goal is to entertain, you can still objectively measure based on how many people who read are entertained, but each person's entertainment is their own subjective judgement.

thewebwriter
04-18-2013, 04:51 PM
As Vangogh pointed out, not all writing is designed to get someone to take a specific action.

It should be. The whole point of writing is to cause an action or reaction, to get an opinion, to come back for more.


I just hope they find the blog useful enough and interesting enough to keep reading.
Right there is the action you want. You want them to keep reading and look for your next masterpiece.

Actions are whatever you want them to be. The very first question you should ask when writing is, "what do I hope to achieve"?. The second question should be "how do I know I have achieved it"?

dianecoleen
04-18-2013, 05:50 PM
On a reader's point of view, I would basically rate a good writing once a piece of content makes me wonder. It is to the point that the title or just a simple piece of paragraph will leave a question to my mind. It's a bit bored to read contents that full of synonyms, although I have this interest to read such an article because it encourages me to know what is behind that synonym word(for additional knowledge). Well, this is just my opinion, I don't know with others as this is only my perspective on a good writing.

vangogh
04-19-2013, 01:51 AM
The whole point of writing is to cause an action or reaction, to get an opinion, to come back for more.

You're right, but I guess I would define all the possible outcomes you hope to achieve as getting someone to take action. For example say you're writing a piece of humor and your sole goal is to make someone laugh. You're successful and they laugh. I wouldn't consider that them taking action. Maybe that's just semantics. I do agree with you that all writing should have a goal in mind. I just don't know that the goal is always to get someone to take action. Again, though we may just be defining "take action" differently.

Ocha
04-27-2014, 04:41 PM
Hi Kristine,

The reader.

Work1099
11-14-2014, 06:15 PM
The question in the title has been wandering around my head for a while and I thought I'd throw it out and see what you guys thought about it. To me, good writing is pretty subjective. I know there are grammar rules and spelling rules and word usage rules, but I don't feel like there's an absolute measuring stick as to what "good" writing is. I've seen pieces of writing that other people proclaimed to be good that I thought were crap. I've seen stuff other people hated that I thought was pretty good. What do the rest of you think? Is there some objective measurement for what good writing is, or is good writing mostly in the eye of the beholder?

The single greatest measure of an ad's success is the total profits earned. Even better if it's measured end-to-end, because some ads may make more upfront but set a bad first impression that ends up making less in the long run. Outside of such an absolute KPI, it's all subjective and rather wishy-washy. Many different styles have all led to successful copy.