How do you eat an elephant?

[machine]

A contractor I worked for that was building a large housing development asked me that, I looked at him puzzled. One bite at a time he says. I am 48 and in college full time, going for a BS in mechanical engineering. Last (my first) semester I got 3 A's and a B, felt pretty good considering that I am a HS dropout. Funny thing is I did not know what I wanted to be when I grew up until last summer, now I am on a mission. I don't want to just be an engineer, I want to be a self employed engineer.

So I incorporated last month and now I plan on starting up a business while I go to school for the next 5 years so that I have a business when I get out. This thread will be my blog of how this unfolds. At 48 I gotta make this thing move, I need to have a drafting business up and running by summer. The problem with that? I am not a drafter yet, I better smoke this next semesters drafting classes.

The name of the business is Sample Mechanical Inc, Sample because that is actually my last name. No, not like Jr, he had an s at the end of his name, Jr Samples. The eventual goal is to do mechanical product development, make better mousetraps, reinvent the wheel. I have 10 years automotive & 20 years construction experience, among a bunch of other things.

I cannot stand working for other people, I quit that contractor once a year for 5 years before I quit for good. And that was as a subcontractor, not even a real employee. I HAVE TO BE self employed. Anyway fire away with any questions, comments or advice.

[nealrm]

I cannot stand working for other people
So when you have your own job, how are you going to handle working for 10-20 clients??? When you move from an employee to self-employee you are exchange 1 boss for several.

[machine]

So when you have your own job, how are you going to handle working for 10-20 clients??? When you move from an employee to self-employee you are exchange 1 boss for several.

To my serious regret I do not have great people skills, better then the average person but for all my experience I should have great people skills. Most of my life I have been self employed, for me there is a world of difference between customers and a boss. But I refuse to be mistreated by either one, I have chewed out customers and bosses alike. At the end of my employment with that contractor I mentioned, I had 150 guys under me and running 1 custom home closing a day, insane ugly stress. I answered to the developer, the contractor and handling anywhere from 10-20 homeowners at one time. Construction is a brutal business, I don't imagine that this new arena can show me anything.

[Dan Furman]

At 48 I gotta make this thing move, I need to have a drafting business up and running by summer. The problem with that? I am not a drafter yet, I better smoke this next semesters drafting classes.


That's not all you are smoking...

"Take a class for one semester and be a drafting professional"... That's comical.

[machine]

That's not all you are smoking...

"Take a class for one semester and be a drafting professional"... That's comical.
It'll be two semesters and I'll only be doing AutoCAD to start with. Why is that comical? It's coming pretty easy for me. I have 30 years of construction & mechanical experience, that has to be worth something. If I run into trouble I'll have my son who is a mechanical engineer help me out. What are you smoking?

[Dan Furman]

It'll be two semesters and I'll only be doing AutoCAD to start with. Why is that comical? It's coming pretty easy for me. I have 30 years of construction & mechanical experience, that has to be worth something. If I run into trouble I'll have my son who is a mechanical engineer help me out. What are you smoking?

Depends on what the experience is. If it's a real, certified / licensable skill, sure. A master electrician, a master plumber... that's worth a lot. 30 years that's not truly verifiable / documented in credentials... not so much (30 years of working in construction is not necessarily 30 years of construction experience.) So, what exactly are your actual credentials that someone is going to hire you for drafting projects after two semesters in school?

Not that I'm trying to put you on the spot - more point out that it's just not as simple as you seem to think.

[machine]

Depends on what the experience is. If it's a real, certified / licensable skill, sure. A master electrician, a master plumber... that's worth a lot. 30 years that's not truly verifiable / documented in credentials... not so much (30 years of working in construction is not necessarily 30 years of construction experience.) So, what are your actual credentials that someone is going to hire you for drafting projects after two semesters in school?

Not that I'm trying to put you on the spot - more point out that it's just not as simple as you seem to think.
The experience is all trades, some better then others and by that I mean speed wise. In all my years I have never had to verify experience and I don't see how I would need to anyway. You can either do something or you can't. You seem to be insinuating that I am full of it, not sure why you are doing that.

[Dan Furman]

The experience is all trades, some better then others and by that I mean speed wise. In all my years I have never had to verify experience and I don't see how I would need to anyway. You can either do something or you can't. You seem to be insinuating that I am full of it, not sure why you are doing that.

No, I am insinuating that expecting to start a drafting business when you have no drafting experience (save a course you are taking) is ridiculous for anyone, nevermind a 48 y/o.

You make it sound like it's easy. It's not.

And yea, in business, before people trust you with projects, as a company, you kind of do have to verfiy your experience/credentials. You'll never get hired otherwise, save for low level handyman stuff or showing up at a jobsite and getting hired as a subcontractor swinging a hammer (et al). But that's not business - that's an employee without benefits.

Admittedly, I'm a little tough on the advice / comments part when people post what I see as dreamer-type stuff (feel free to ignore me). I'm just not a pie-in-the-sky "I'm gonna do this" guy. I'd be more apt to be supportive had you said "I have a lot of construction experience, but nothing concrete, so I'll start a handyman business as I go to school to pay the bills" - to me, that's waaaaaay more realistic. But your plan in your OP... sorry to say, but I'd bet anything it's not flying and you're swinging a hammer come summer (not that there's anything wrong w/ that, mind you.)

[machine]

No, I am insinuating that expecting to start a drafting business when you have no drafting experience (save a course you are taking) is ridiculous for anyone, nevermind a 48 y/o.

You make it sound like it's easy. It's not.

And yea, in business, before people trust you with projects, as a company, you kind of do have to verfiy your experience/credentials. You'll never get hired otherwise, save for low level handyman stuff or showing up at a jobsite and getting hired as a subcontractor swinging a hammer (et al). But that's not business - that's an employee without benefits.

Admittedly, I'm a little tough on the advice / comments part when people post what I see as dreamer-type stuff (feel free to ignore me). I'm just not a pie-in-the-sky "I'm gonna do this" guy. I'd be more apt to be supportive had you said "I have a lot of construction experience, but nothing concrete, so I'll start a handyman business as I go to school to pay the bills" - to me, that's waaaaaay more realistic. But your plan in your OP... sorry to say, but I'd bet anything it's not flying and you're swinging a hammer come summer (not that there's anything wrong w/ that, mind you.)
I have mostly operated on word of mouth, very powerful form of advertising. Did you bother to ask if I had any connections before you started jumping to conclusions? Very odd of you as a moderator to make a real effort to paint me as almost stupid, imagining that you might dissuade me from my dreams and discounting my experience as swinging a hammer. I don't need your support, just so you know.

[tallen]

To maybe make Dan's point a little more softly -- how are you going to attract clients to your drafting service? What is your competition like, and why would clients choose your service over the alternatives? What is your "USP" (unique selling point)? Without credentials and experience (drafting), your job in marketing your service and selling yourself will be just that much harder. I will not say that it is impossible; every business starts somewhere -- while you need to be optimistic, you also need to be realistic.

(edit: I wrote this up a little while ago, but didn't get to posting it until after you posted just above -- your network of connections is a great way to get a jump start; good luck!)

[billbenson]

I have mostly operated on word of mouth, very powerful form of advertising. Did you bother to ask if I had any connections before you started jumping to conclusions? Very odd of you as a moderator to make a real effort to paint me as almost stupid, imagining that you might dissuade me from my dreams and discounting my experience as swinging a hammer. I don't need your support, just so you know.

Sit back and get to know the personalities on this forum. Were from all over the place and are very different people with different opinions, specialties and experience and we all get along. Were glad your here and posting. People here try to help. You are jumping the gun a bit in this post.

[huggytree]

i dont like your company name...its odd.....yes its your last name, but its ALSO a real word....and that word has nothing to do with your job.....i typically like last names when they are short and easy to pronounce, but i do not like your last name in a business name....just my opinion..something to think about

to be a business owner you MUST be a people person....or be like me and become an actor....when a customer calls i do a personality change....you will need to be friends with your customers....they are 'like' your bosses, but not really....you can fire them, but yet they pay your wages.

i faked my way through and into a job once....very scary, but they never caught on.....sounds like thats what your going to do....and it may not be smart...if your not ready and you make some major screwups it could cause legal issues....you should be properly trained to do your job....not learning 1 semester ahead of your job

[Dan Furman]

I have mostly operated on word of mouth, very powerful form of advertising. Did you bother to ask if I had any connections before you started jumping to conclusions? Very odd of you as a moderator to make a real effort to paint me as almost stupid, imagining that you might dissuade me from my dreams and discounting my experience as swinging a hammer. I don't need your support, just so you know.

I know. That's cool. And word of mouth is nice. I love word of mouth. It's also a phrase used by broke businesspeople everywhere. In my experience, anyone who relies 100% on word of mouth simply doesn't have the money to advertise.

I know you don't like someone challenging what you have written and your "dreams". I missed where it said "pats on the back only".

I definitely admit your OP irked me a little in that it so callously dismisses experience. As if it's that simple to start a drafting business.

I know you are full of wonder and dreams and the like. But what you wrote in your OP sounds like a 19 y/o kid wrote it, not a seasoned 48 y/o man with gobs of business experience. I don't think you are "stupid". I *do* think you are misguided in what you are looking to do. I have consulted and coached entrepreneurs, and yea, some don't like it when I tell them their dream isn't a good one. But, in my opinion, I need to say it.

I also realize you are a bit touchy about your experience. I don;t mean to disparage you. I'm only being a realist here. If you want people to pay attention, they want to hear "I am a 20-year licensed carpenter, and 29 homes in the XYZ area carry the name "Machine"" (etc). You kind of sound like a classic jack of all trades, master of none, with no real credentials that you can point to except a long work history (correct me if I am wrong). Which is fine - kinda describes me a decade ago. That's one reason I wrote two books. Sometimes, you have to make your own credentials.

Can you point to a house or building and say "I built that" (Not "I worked on that".)

[machine]

I know. That's cool. And word of mouth is nice. I love word of mouth. It's also a phrase used by broke businesspeople everywhere. In my experience, anyone who relies 100% on word of mouth simply doesn't have the money to advertise.

I know you don't like someone challenging what you have written and your "dreams". I missed where it said "pats on the back only".

I definitely admit your OP irked me a little in that it so callously dismisses experience. As if it's that simple to start a drafting business.

I know you are full of wonder and dreams and the like. But what you wrote in your OP sounds like a 19 y/o kid wrote it, not a seasoned 48 y/o man with gobs of business experience. I don't think you are "stupid". I *do* think you are misguided in what you are looking to do. I have consulted and coached entrepreneurs, and yea, some don't like it when I tell them their dream isn't a good one. But, in my opinion, I need to say it.

I also realize you are a bit touchy about your experience. I don;t mean to disparage you. I'm only being a realist here. If you want people to pay attention, they want to hear "I am a 20-year licensed carpenter, and 29 homes in the XYZ area carry the name "Machine"" (etc). You kind of sound like a classic jack of all trades, master of none, with no real credentials that you can point to except a long work history (correct me if I am wrong). Which is fine - kinda describes me a decade ago. That's one reason I wrote two books. Sometimes, you have to make your own credentials.

Can you point to a house or building and say "I built that" (Not "I worked on that".)
It seems that what you do is pick & choose what you pay attention to in what a person writes, therefore making it easier to jump to conclusions. In the future I would suggest asking a lot of questions to fill in the blanks before you start jumping to conclusions. Not that I care, just some friendly advice. I am a jack of all trades, master of some. I rebuilt my first car engine when I was 14, first automatic transmission when I was 17, unassisted and with no instructions. I have some extreme talent in making things, designing things. A few times I have built a house from the ground up completely by myself, except for a laborer. I specialized in high end remodeling before the great recession hit. Not all that hard for me, I learn very fast so it's not surprising that I know all that I do after actually 32 years of work. Often in my twenties I worked 60-80 hours a week.

I bet you assume that I dropped out of high school because I was failing, not the case at all. I did some hard studying for a month then took the math placement test at the college. Then I took technical mathematics and tested out of college algebra and trig. So now I am ready for calc next fall and the only school math I have taken is HS algebra 33 years ago and this one semester of tech math. You still want to talk down to me? I would suggest you don't project your own limitations onto others. I'll have a drafting certificate this spring, I bet I do ok.

I could show you some pictures of stuff I have built but I have nothing to prove there, certainly not to you. Who cares if you wrote two books, I could have written a few myself if I cared enough to do it. You sound jealous man, I would suggest that will regret what you have written in this thread so far.

[machine]

i dont like your company name...its odd.....yes its your last name, but its ALSO a real word....and that word has nothing to do with your job.....i typically like last names when they are short and easy to pronounce, but i do not like your last name in a business name....just my opinion..something to think about

to be a business owner you MUST be a people person....or be like me and become an actor....when a customer calls i do a personality change....you will need to be friends with your customers....they are 'like' your bosses, but not really....you can fire them, but yet they pay your wages.

i faked my way through and into a job once....very scary, but they never caught on.....sounds like thats what your going to do....and it may not be smart...if your not ready and you make some major screwups it could cause legal issues....you should be properly trained to do your job....not learning 1 semester ahead of your job

Well I don't like your username so there. :D It sounds really stupid for a guy yet here you are using it like it's the greatest thing in the world. You are incorrect, you do not have to be a people person to be a business owner, life might be easier if one is a people person but you can work around it.

You go ahead with the customer being a boss, that's not how I do it. I am friendly, helpful and I do exactly what I say I'm going to do. That has seemed to do the trick in the course of my life. Are you just a one trick pony, a plumber, or do you possess other skills?

[Dan Furman]

It seems that what you do is pick & choose what you pay attention to in what a person writes, therefore making it easier to jump to conclusions. In the future I would suggest asking a lot of questions to fill in the blanks before you start jumping to conclusions. Not that I care, just some friendly advice. I am a jack of all trades, master of some. I rebuilt my first car engine when I was 14, first automatic transmission when I was 17, unassisted and with no instructions. I have some extreme talent in making things, designing things. A few times I have built a house from the ground up completely by myself, except for a laborer. I specialized in high end remodeling before the great recession hit. Not all that hard for me, I learn very fast so it's not surprising that I know all that I do after actually 32 years of work. Often in my twenties I worked 60-80 hours a week.

I bet you assume that I dropped out of high school because I was failing, not the case at all. I did some hard studying for a month then took the math placement test at the college. Then I took technical mathematics and tested out of college algebra and trig. So now I am ready for calc next fall and the only school math I have taken is HS algebra 33 years ago and this one semester of tech math. You still want to talk down to me? I would suggest you don't project your own limitations onto others. I'll have a drafting certificate this spring, I bet I do ok.

I could show you some pictures of stuff I have built but I have nothing to prove there, certainly not to you. Who cares if you wrote two books, I could have written a few myself if I cared enough to do it. You sound jealous man, I would suggest that will regret what you have written in this thread so far.

Wow, you really need to grow a thicker skin. You sure you're not 19?

Yea, you "could" have written a few books. You probably "could" have done a lot of things.

But - and this is key - you didn't. Guys like you never do.

[huggytree]

my user name is actually my wifes user name...i stole it years ago and now keep it because its goofy.......

i would not consider using it for my business.....nor would i use my last name if it was also a normal word....its just a bit odd(to me)

as a business you set the rules for your customer but the customer is really the boss

[Dan Furman]

Are you just a one trick pony, a plumber, or do you possess other skills?

He's had a ton of success. I'd listen to what he has to say, especially if you are in the building trades.

Huggy's been in business a long time, and supports his family - quite nicely, I might add - with his skill, both as a plumber, and as a businessman.

You?

[Dan Furman]

my user name is actually my wifes user name...i stole it years ago and now keep it because its goofy.......

i would not consider using it for my business.....nor would i use my last name if it was also a normal word....its just a bit odd(to me)

as a business you set the rules for your customer but the customer is really the boss

True that. They are paying you - that makes them the boss.

[machine]

Wow, you really need to grow a thicker skin. You sure you're not 19?

Yea, you "could" have written a few books. You probably "could" have done a lot of things.

But - and this is key - you didn't. Guys like you never do.
Guys like me? Guys like me make the world go round. Guys like you judge those who actually do things. I see, you are an internet tough guy huh? Got the moderator badge, the whole works. You are really a terrible moderator, I hope you don't suck at other things as bad as you do at this.

[machine]

my user name is actually my wifes user name...i stole it years ago and now keep it because its goofy.......

i would not consider using it for my business.....nor would i use my last name if it was also a normal word....its just a bit odd(to me)

as a business you set the rules for your customer but the customer is really the boss
If I take out the years working for others that leaves me about 20 on my own. God only knows how I managed to get by with my crazy ideas(sarcasm), but one thing for sure, I would NEVER work in any field where the customer is the boss.

[machine]

He's had a ton of success. I'd listen to what he has to say, especially if you are in the building trades.

Huggy's been in business a long time, and supports his family - quite nicely, I might add - with his skill, both as a plumber, and as a businessman.

You?
I have had some stunning successes and some stunning failures but overall I have done ok. At an age when most people are thinking about winding it down I am starting over in an area I truly love. I am happy and I have always left everything on the field. If huggy really were all that I think he could speak for himself, being a construction guy and all, lol.

[Dan Furman]

Guys like me? Guys like me make the world go round. Guys like you judge those who actually do things. I see, you are an internet tough guy huh? Got the moderator badge, the whole works. You are really a terrible moderator, I hope you don't suck at other things as bad as you do at this.

well, I mentioned the books as a way of saying "sometimes you have to make your own credentials" (in fact, I said exactly that). I was trying to be nice in that post. You, of course, took it totally the wrong way and insulted me. And then have the gall to say "yea, I could have done that". Suuuuure you could have.....

Not sure why the moderator thing matters to you (you brought it up, not me). Do you even know what a moderator does on these forums (let me answer for you - you obviously don't).

Yea, you do need a thicker skin. This'll be my last post to you in this thread unless there's something different to talk about, as we're just wasting time now.

[machine]

well, I mentioned the books as a way of saying "sometimes you have to make your own credentials" (in fact, I said exactly that). I was trying to be nice in that post. You, of course, took it totally the wrong way and insulted me. And then have the gall to say "yea, I could have done that". Suuuuure you could have.....

Not sure why the moderator thing matters to you (you brought it up, not me). Do you even know what a moderator does on these forums (let me answer for you - you obviously don't).

Yea, you do need a thicker skin.
You need to build yourself a real ego through actual hard work, not try to build it by pushing people around on an internet forum. What you did was come in on my thread trying to be a bigshot and now that that isn't working out for you. You'll try to get me banned so that you don't have someone hanging around that makes you look like the know it all blowhard you actually are. I understand english perfectly, you are a rude person who seems to have no respect for those who have worked their butts off.

Just think it's odd behavior for a moderator is all, but I am starting to see your agenda here. Trying to push your books and your little beginner consultant biz. Well I'll tell you, you better stay in the shallow end of the pool.

[dave@businessecon.org]

Machine:
Dan is pointing out what I too consider the obvious. You just can't call yourself a drafter or an engineer without some credentials to back it up. In many of the more lucrative engagements, you will need to vouch for your degrees, certifications, and licenses in order for your work to pass muster with the local government issuing permits for the project. Furthermore, you local community review boards for home construction have a lot of say in who prepares the documents etc. So you may be putting the cart before the horse here. You will have to start out small lets say doghouses, move up to sheds and then possible additions and finally homes. That's how it pretty works in the professional world. I know, I've been through this and I've seen dozens of clients have to do the same thing to be successful. You may have too small of a window with life expectancy to enjoy the fruits of your labor in this endeavor. In most professional situations, once the degrees and credentials have been earned, it takes about 10 years of work to begin to get some nice jobs that not only pay well, but reward you for the 'WOW' factor (Wow, I did that).

So my suggestion is to start out small while in college, you'll discover the whole thing is outright expensive with software, the correct printers, blah, blah, blah, but you'll get your foot in the door. I will also tell you that if you are having trouble with bossess and customers now, getting irate or upset, then being self employed is really going to get your heat pumping. Almost everyone pays when the job is done (if they pay at all); and if you get fired 3/4 of the way through the job because you fussed out the client or whatever, then you loose a lot of your investment because I guarantee they will not pay you. Yeah, Yeah, take him to court. Good luck with that idea because odds are that you'll get zilch unless you have some form of a specific performance contract which will cost you a pretty nickel each time you get an engagement for work.

All in all, start out small and as you earn more educational creditionals and develop a portfolio, you'll get better and better engagements.

Good luck.

Dave

[Dan Furman]

Just think it's odd behavior for a moderator is all, but I am starting to see your agenda here. Trying to push your books and your little beginner consultant biz. Well I'll tell you, you better stay in the shallow end of the pool.

Exposed!!!

[machine]

Machine:
Dan is pointing out what I too consider the obvious. You just can't call yourself a drafter or an engineer without some credentials to back it up. In many of the more lucrative engagements, you will need to vouch for your degrees, certifications, and licenses in order for your work to pass muster with the local government issuing permits for the project. Furthermore, you local community review boards for home construction have a lot of say in who prepares the documents etc. So you may be putting the cart before the horse here. You will have to start out small lets say doghouses, move up to sheds and then possible additions and finally homes. That's how it pretty works in the professional world. I know, I've been through this and I've seen dozens of clients have to do the same thing to be successful. You may have too small of a window with life expectancy to enjoy the fruits of your labor in this endeavor. In most professional situations, once the degrees and credentials have been earned, it takes about 10 years of work to begin to get some nice jobs that not only pay well, but reward you for the 'WOW' factor (Wow, I did that).

So my suggestion is to start out small while in college, you'll discover the whole thing is outright expensive with software, the correct printers, blah, blah, blah, but you'll get your foot in the door. I will also tell you that if you are having trouble with bossess and customers now, getting irate or upset, then being self employed is really going to get your heat pumping. Almost everyone pays when the job is done (if they pay at all); and if you get fired 3/4 of the way through the job because you fussed out the client or whatever, then you loose a lot of your investment because I guarantee they will not pay you. Yeah, Yeah, take him to court. Good luck with that idea because odds are that you'll get zilch unless you have some form of a specific performance contract which will cost you a pretty nickel each time you get an engagement for work.

All in all, start out small and as you earn more educational creditionals and develop a portfolio, you'll get better and better engagements.

Good luck.

Dave
So many know it all experts on this site it is amazing. You are familiar with the Tulsa Oklahoma market/rules/requirements are you??? You have checked out what sort of opportunities are here? I am not calling myself an engineer although I have engineered some stuff, in about 5 years I will call myself that. I will be calling myself a drafter this spring after I get my drafting certificate. At the very least I can start with construction drafting stuff. Funny none of you even asked if I have ever done any hand drafting. Did you miss the part about my son being an engineer already???

[machine]

Exposed!!!
Well you are. I am old enough to have a successful engineer as a son, if that gives you a clue as to how far down the food chain you are. Even my son is more successful then you.

[nealrm]

Machine,
I went back to your first post, reread it and the post afterwards. Based on the information provided you sounded like many of the new entrepreneurs we see here: Still in school, wants to start a business, unreasonable expectation, can't work for others, a list of jobs that they quit .... Also, since you did not mention any experience, it was logical that you did not have any that was relevant. The comment posts were made on the information you provided. Since you started this thread asking for comments and advise, it is up to you to provide all the necessary information.

Based on your comments you appear to have experience managing people and various construction areas. You also replied to my original comment stating you do not have great people skills and commented later that you would not work in any field where the customer is the boss. I also looked at how you handled the advise that was provided to you. What I am seeing is an individual can do the work, but should not be in direct contact with the customers. That means you either hire someone to handle the customer relations or work for someone else.

You also need to determine how you want to sell yourself to potential customers. The biggest part of having a business is turning potential clients into customers. Work with someone on how to express your past experience in a manner that is positive, instills trust and is non-confrontational. You can be the Rembrandt of drafting, but if you can't instill trust in your customers and show that you can do what you say, then those potential customers will go the business that they trust and that has proven they can do the job.

[Dan Furman]

You also need to determine how you want to sell yourself to potential customers. The biggest part of having a business is turning potential clients into customers. Work with someone on how to express your past experience in a manner that is positive, instills trust and is non-confrontational. You can be the Rembrandt of drafting, but if you can't instill trust in your customers and show that you can do what you say, then those potential customers will go the business that they trust and that has proven they can do the job.

Back on topic, this is excellent advice. People are going to question experience. It has to be presented in a non-confrontational manner. Not everyone sees the brilliance. Some will see a hodgepodge of "stuff", especially if that's what it really is.

I do not say that to insult - I speak from experience. My work history sucked. Flat-out sucked. No way I was getting hired for any kind of writing job based on my minefield of firings. So I built myself a model home to show people - in my case, a pretty substantive website, with killer copy. That got things rolling. Then, after a while, I could point to sites that I wrote. Then a few more. Then I wrote two books. And soldiered on. Been well over a decade now, and I'm pretty established. There's a clear record of "me" if a potential client cares enough to check. And there's enough good stuff that my former "sucky" work history is now an "eclectic" asset that I joke about.

The point is, there's no use in getting defensive about my work history when asked/questioned about it. Instead, I had to build my credentials. Most business owners (especailly if they offer a service) will need to do this.

[machine]

Machine,
I went back to your first post, reread it and the post afterwards. Based on the information provided you sounded like many of the new entrepreneurs we see here: Still in school, wants to start a business, unreasonable expectation, can't work for others, a list of jobs that they quit .... Also, since you did not mention any experience, it was logical that you did not have any that was relevant. The comment posts were made on the information you provided. Since you started this thread asking for comments and advise, it is up to you to provide all the necessary information.

Based on your comments you appear to have experience managing people and various construction areas. You also replied to my original comment stating you do not have great people skills and commented later that you would not work in any field where the customer is the boss. I also looked at how you handled the advise that was provided to you. What I am seeing is an individual can do the work, but should not be in direct contact with the customers. That means you either hire someone to handle the customer relations or work for someone else.

You also need to determine how you want to sell yourself to potential customers. The biggest part of having a business is turning potential clients into customers. Work with someone on how to express your past experience in a manner that is positive, instills trust and is non-confrontational. You can be the Rembrandt of drafting, but if you can't instill trust in your customers and show that you can do what you say, then those potential customers will go the business that they trust and that has proven they can do the job.
Finally! A person with half a brain weighs in. Well you know it's not my fault people jumping to conclusions then trying to save face by digging in deeper. No amount of new information can stop Dan from his incredible wisdom that somehow was bestowed upon him even though he has no real world experience in anything that I am talking about. Didn't take long to peg him as a know it all blowhard, watch, he will come back later and delete his rude stupidity.

I do have a LOT of experience managing people, because I have had to, not because I liked it. You are correct, I do better when I am not in direct contact with customers. I make a better lieutenant then I do a general. BUT I am in practice a better general then most generals, so it's a rare deal when i can work for someone else. I am an ISTP, if you are familiar with MBTI.

That is exactly part of what I am currently doing, working on how to sell myself, and this sort of rearranged business structure notion that I have. I have to play to my strengths if I am to pull it off. I do have some real strengths, for example I can "see" an entire complex structure in my head, this makes drafting a natural extension. I have been the go to guy when things fall apart, can't be figured out etc. THAT is one thing that has always kept my nose above the water. I am a great problem solver and relentless on finishing jobs.

[huggytree]

. If huggy really were all that I think he could speak for himself, being a construction guy and all, lol.

my tax bill for 2012 is $80,000....you can guess the income....i judge success by income, some do/some dont

[billbenson]

Finally! A person with half a brain weighs in.

You know if you start by insulting people at the beginning of every thread, people aren't going to want to help you. If you think you know everything why are you asking for help?

[machine]

You know if you start by insulting people at the beginning of every thread, people aren't going to want to help you. If you think you know everything why are you asking for help?

Why don't you go take a hike?

[machine]

my tax bill for 2012 is $80,000....you can guess the income....i judge success by income, some do/some dont
I assume a typo, surely you don't judge by income. I have been in the 100k income club before the great recession. Well maybe you do judge by income if you say you paid $80k in income taxes. I have worked for people that proably paid that a week in taxes. Whatever.

[billbenson]

Why don't you go take a hike?

A such a marvelous people person you are.

[nealrm]

My wife sometimes says I have half a brain, don't think she means it in the same way.:D

OK - you have some strengths related to your prior work in construction and an aptitude for visualizing structures. That is a good place to start. Now look over those construction experiences and choose events that relate directly to drafting. Not everything will. Unless they were a large event (say laying out a specific building on your own) I would not list them specifically. Instead I would summarize them as a group. Some potential examples; did you adjust drawings to meet the conditions at the building site, did you revise drawings to meet customer requirements.....

Next I would look for experiences that while not directly related to drafting, are general in nature and apply to most jobs. Things like leadership, problem solving, finishing jobs....

Once you have those in place, you can put them together in a marketing package. It would be great if you could throw in some intern work. Check with your college and see if any is available.

Now, let's look at your time frame. You have set an extremely aggressive time frame. Not only do you need to complete your education, but you also have to develop a customer base and have those customers have jobs that are ready. The education part is under your control, the rest is relying on others. Because of that it is very possible, through no fault of your own, that your goal will not be obtained. I suggest looking into means of allowing for a longer time frame. That could mean working in construction or another similar area until your business can fully support you. The goal is to allow you to work towards creating your business, while still doing the nice things in life like eating and sleeping indoors.

Last, start looking into the cost of starting. Nothing wrong with starting with used equipment or a version of CAD that is a few versions back. Upgrade as money allows. Plan the cost to run about 125% of the budget amount and income to be about 60% of expected. That should keep you safe.

[machine]

My wife sometimes says I have half a brain, don't think she means it in the same way.:D

OK - you have some strengths related to your prior work in construction and an aptitude for visualizing structures. That is a good place to start. Now look over those construction experiences and choose events that relate directly to drafting. Not everything will. Unless they were a large event (say laying out a specific building on your own) I would not list them specifically. Instead I would summarize them as a group. Some potential examples; did you adjust drawings to meet the conditions at the building site, did you revise drawings to meet customer requirements.....

Next I would look for experiences that while not directly related to drafting, are general in nature and apply to most jobs. Things like leadership, problem solving, finishing jobs....

Once you have those in place, you can put them together in a marketing package. It would be great if you could throw in some intern work. Check with your college and see if any is available.

Now, let's look at your time frame. You have set an extremely aggressive time frame. Not only do you need to complete your education, but you also have to develop a customer base and have those customers have jobs that are ready. The education part is under your control, the rest is relying on others. Because of that it is very possible, through no fault of your own, that your goal will not be obtained. I suggest looking into means of allowing for a longer time frame. That could mean working in construction or another similar area until your business can fully support you. The goal is to allow you to work towards creating your business, while still doing the nice things in life like eating and sleeping indoors.

Last, start looking into the cost of starting. Nothing wrong with starting with used equipment or a version of CAD that is a few versions back. Upgrade as money allows. Plan the cost to run about 125% of the budget amount and income to be about 60% of expected. That should keep you safe.
Very good stuff, you did all that without even a hint of insult or talking down to me, bravo! In working for others I have converted blueprints into buildings and I have drawn up plans for stuff I built for my own customers. Plans don't always go as planned, lol. Anyway that's my general experience with drafting, none in a mechanical setting.

I am good at you tell me what you want built/made/done and I deliver it. No excuses, no shortcuts, no BS.

While I wasn't exactly thrilled with my career as a residential remodeler/commercial maintenance it did pay the bills and there were perks. However I have an accumulation of physical problems that has necessitated me changing careers completely. Actually I had been looking for a career for the last 20 years, leading more of a reactionary life then pro action. Last year it struck me, so freakin obvious what I should do. Anyway that is the time frame, I have to move this along. I got a 98% in drafting last semester, I love AutoCad and I know I will be good at it. That's my ticket out of construction land. I still do have a few customers but I probably don't put in more then 20 hours a month in that. I have feet problems that are such that I cannot stand more then 4-5 hours a day max.

The cost of starting is not so much. I am not going to try to embrace all of drafting at once, just AutoCAD. About $1500 for that, working on student version presently or I'd already bought it. Finishing up my Inc will be around $500, I am pretty setup to go once I push through this next semester. None of this can compare to the crazy expenses of running a construction business.

[nealrm]

Is it possible to move any of your old employers / customers into your new business? If so, that would be a good base to start from. If not, answering why would be useful for determining what you need to do to get other customers.

[machine]

Is it possible to move any of your old employers / customers into your new business? If so, that would be a good base to start from. If not, answering why would be useful for determining what you need to do to get other customers.
It is possible, maybe. One of my former customers is a interstate mortgage company, I gave them up but may get work in the future. Another one is a real estate title company, I know the owners of both these companies personally. Certainly they are good references. That's the extent of that, most everyone else is just individuals. I know a guy that runs a machine shop, he would help I think. I have only lived here 3 & 1/2 years and while lucky enough to hit the ground running one can only do so much in a space of time. My life is spread all over the US so I don't have that deep reserve of past customers. I have a friend who is trying to start up a water treatment company, I might get some stuff of him, I spent a year remodeling his house in another state. It's possible my son can pick up some work.

I just gotta get my foot in the door. There seems to be a lot of iffy maybe's, my guy instinct tells me I am going to make it.

[nealrm]

Don't think just locally. CAD is a digital media, you can have clients anywhere the internet is.

[machine]

Don't think just locally. CAD is a digital media, you can have clients anywhere the internet is.
That's part of what leads me to believe I can pull it off. If I can find some segment of the drafting market to get in then I can expand. Of course there are plenty of drafters out there, but I think I may have a combination of experience and skill that allows me to break into it. If you want somebody that can problem solve and design, hey that's me. It doesn't seem like it's that big a stretch for me to take a year of drafting and then go for it.

I am conscious of things like my grammar not being the best, I have tried since getting my first computer 4 years ago to improve. 9th grade English and working around a lot of rednecks most of my life, what do you want? I am not downing rednecks, proud of my background of being one myself. I'll be taking college English a year from now, that should help. This is a long range plan, I am doing the BS in mechanical engineering over 5 years so I can throw in some other stuff I want.

I made it to 48 with a 9th grade education, now I want to go about things differently. For those that think its a waste, why not do it? Better to be an engineer for 10 years then to never have been one at all. In life it's the journey not the destination for me, I have another journey left in me, why not do it? When I finally wind up permanently in a rocking chair I hope there is nothing left.

[Dan Furman]

That's part of what leads me to believe I can pull it off. If I can find some segment of the drafting market to get in then I can expand. Of course their are plenty of drafters out there, but I think I may have a combination of experience and skill that allows me to break into it. If you want somebody that can problem solve and design, hey that's me. It doesn't seem like it's that big a stretch for me to take a year of drafting and then go for it.

We're done insulting and fighting ok? This is more matter of fact:

If you want to branch out online, that's great. I'm a big advocate of losing the "local" thing in terms of a digital service. But that said, let me point out something:

What you do online matters.

For all of our nastiness to each other (and we should just sweep it under the rug and start over - good?), I would be 100% fine with any potential client reading this thread. Not once did I call you a name or go to that level. About the worst thing I said to you was "you sure you're not 19?"

You? Well, you can act like you wish, but I doubt you'd be real proud to show this thread to a potential $100,000 client. And you put your company name in this thread - it already shows on a search (go try it). You also alluded to alcohol in other threads in a way that could make one think there may have been an issue there in the past ("alcohol is your friend"). Again, that may or may not be something that you want tagged to you (hey, that's your personal business), but I wanted you to be aware of these things. They do matter. If I were contemplating hiring you for a drafting job, and I read that, it may make me think twice. And it may not. But why leave it to chance?

I used to be a big arguer / flamer on usenet in the mid 90's. Then I got an online business, and realized my online postings followed me.

Take it for what it's worth, and I hope we can start over.

[machine]

That's not all you are smoking...

"Take a class for one semester and be a drafting professional"... That's comical.
This is your first post to me on this thread. Lets all kiss and make up huh, why don't you go fly a kite.

[machine]

Wow, you really need to grow a thicker skin. You sure you're not 19?

Yea, you "could" have written a few books. You probably "could" have done a lot of things.

But - and this is key - you didn't. Guys like you never do.

What kind of guy would that be huh?

[Dan Furman]

This is your first post to me on this thread. Lets all kiss and make up huh, why don't you go fly a kite.

Whatever. I tried.

Best of luck to you.

[machine]

We're done insulting and fighting ok? This is more matter of fact:

If you want to branch out online, that's great. I'm a big advocate of losing the "local" thing in terms of a digital service. But that said, let me point out something:

What you do online matters.

For all of our nastiness to each other (and we should just sweep it under the rug and start over - good?), I would be 100% fine with any potential client reading this thread. Not once did I call you a name or go to that level. About the worst thing I said to you was "you sure you're not 19?"

You? Well, you can act like you wish, but I doubt you'd be real proud to show this thread to a potential $100,000 client. And you put your company name in this thread - it already shows on a search (go try it). You also alluded to alcohol in other threads in a way that could make one think there may have been an issue there in the past ("alcohol is your friend"). Again, that may or may not be something that you want tagged to you (hey, that's your personal business), but I wanted you to be aware of these things. They do matter. If I were contemplating hiring you for a drafting job, and I read that, it may make me think twice. And it may not. But why leave it to chance?

I used to be a big arguer / flamer on usenet in the mid 90's. Then I got an online business, and realized my online postings followed me.

Take it for what it's worth, and I hope we can start over.
What do I care what a potential client reads on the internet? I can't imagine you have much experience with the big dogs otherwise you'd know that sort couldn't care less about something on an internet forum. God you must live a sheltered life if you think the worlds cares about drinking habits. Most ambitious people do drink so alcohol its an equal opportunity thing. Bums drink and so do self made billionaires.

You probably don't like manly men do you? Maybe you've spent your entire life sitting at a desk, chances are we are not going to get along so justaccept that ok? Stay out of my hair and I'll stay out of yours.

[Dan Furman]

You probably don't like manly men do you?

Nah, I'm into women.

You ummm... you sure you're in the right forum???


eta - couldn't resist - you did leave yourself wide open for that one.

[huggytree]

im starting to think this isnt real and just someone playing games with us


how about manly women?

[Dan Furman]

im starting to think this isnt real and just someone playing games with us

how about manly women?

Like this? (it's safe for work) (http://www.gonemovies.com/WWW/WanadooFilms/ScienceFiction/AliensVasquez.asp)

[nealrm]

What do I care what a potential client reads on the internet? I can't imagine you have much experience with the big dogs otherwise you'd know that sort couldn't care less about something on an internet forum. God you must live a sheltered life if you think the worlds cares about drinking habits. Most ambitious people do drink so alcohol its an equal opportunity thing. Bums drink and so do self made billionaires.

Machine, you and I are about the same age. One of the thing that our generation find surprising is how far the internet reaches. If those big dog need a drafting company, one of two things will happen. Either they already know someone (or someone that knows someone) or they will have an employ do a search. If you have an in with the big dog or the employee great, end of story. Whoever if not, that employee will use the internet to find and research you. Your information and web presence will be compared to other companies. So while they may not really care about these post, they would tend to use a company with the most positive information.

In addition if you are ever planning on hiring a professional employee, If they are worth a hill of beans they will research the company. A bad web presence will edge those with the most choice towards other companies. That means you will be forced to select among those with limited choices. In most cases, that means less capable employees.

You are right about the drinking habits. They don't care if you drink like a fish. But, they will care if you APPEAR to have a drinking issue that is made public. This is a straight forward liability issue. If there is ever the potential of a liability suit that in any way can be tied to design, that don't want someone that has a public appearance of a drink problem.

[MyITGuy]

Looks like I'm a bit late to this thread....


What do I care what a potential client reads on the internet?

It's not necessarily the client that's reading on the internet, but rather a company they hire to perform a background check on you and your business...and then you will have to answer to that. As others have pointed out, you've made it pretty simple by putting your company name ("SAMPLE MECHANICAL INC") in this thread, which from what I can tell is unique to your state and is also based on your last name, so the companies that do these background checks have it pretty easy.

While I didn't read all 6 pages of this thread, I can state that if I were in the market for someone with your skill set, I wouldn't be doing business with you based on your dealings...being in business requires that you become a "people person", which you already stated you are not and have no intention to be.

[billbenson]

Off subject, but good to see you back Jeff.

[MyITGuy]

Off subject, but good to see you back Jeff.

Thanks, glad to be back! Off to a good 2013 =D