The difference between hiring a freelancer for piece work, and having an employee.

[Harold Mansfield]

This is only the second time that I've had to confront this problem, so I feel that I'm correct..but I just wanted to run it by you guys.

If you hire me to do a specific job, I of course, am going to give you 110% to insure that you are happy with my work and the service. However, I don't feel that hiring me for occasional piece work a few times a year gives you the right to treat me like an employee.

You shouldn't expect me to be available on weekends and evenings (when I'm not on a job for you) on your whim, especially when we haven't scheduled that time.
You shouldn't expect that I'm going to spend hours working with your publicist on your website and not be paid for the time.
You shouldn't expect that if you pay me for 5 hours work, that I now owe you 5 hours of consulting as a follow up.
You don't ever curse at me. EVER!

I offer a reasonable on call support package for people who need that kind of support . And I'm happy to take any work that I can get. But I don't like it when people treat me as if I'm on the payroll and therefore obligated to be available no matter what time or what day and that I shouldn't bill them for the time.

I think it's out of line and a little arrogant to think that because you've spent a few hundred dollars here and there that people now owe you 24/7 availability?

Am I out of line?
Isn't there a limit to how much you let people totally disregard the fact that they aren't your only client and that you have a life outside of work?

[dave@businessecon.org]

Harold:
At the end of the day, you make that call. If the client hounds you, then drop him! Just say, I'm sorry I can't work in these conditions and therefore it is best we not have a relationship. If you need to earn the money, then you'll have to put up with this form of relationship with this client. So its your call. As a contracted person, you call the shots. If the client thinks they get to call the shots, then there's no meeting of the minds and you should terminate. In the future you may wish to send a statement to potential clients illustrating how you perform your services and how best for them to communicate with you. Set the conditions up front and go from there.

Dave

[Business Attorney]

Harold, I think you are right but in any relationship there must be a mutual understanding. Certainly a buyer of services is entitled to have his own idea of what he should get for his money. That is true whether it is web development services, legal services or anything else.

Some buyers expect top service and are willing to pay for it. Some have more modest expectations and do not expect to pay for service levels they don't need. Some, like the ones you are describing, expect to receive a high level of service without a commensurate financial commitment on their part.

I would treat the client you describe similar to way that I would treat someone asking you for a price that was substantially less than your typical fees. This person is a bargain hunter in the same sense of someone asking you to discount your fees -they simply want more for less. Someone like this, however, is more annoying than someone who asks for a straightforward discounted fee because in that case you know exactly what you are getting into.

Unfortunately, with clients like this, you only find out the downside after the relationship is created. While dave @businessecon.org has a good point about establishing the conditions up front, my experience is that people who act like the ones you describe think the rules are for someone else. If you have set business hours, they will still think that means that they can call you at 4:00 PM on Friday afternoon with a list of changes they need by Monday morning.

Your best plan is to say "NO" early and often so that their expectations can be reset or, if you and they cannot agree on mutually acceptable working conditions, to end the relationship.

[Harold Mansfield]

You are correct. These types are far and few in between. And I blame myself for going above the call of duty too many times with weekend and last minute work, and I think it got to the point where he not only expected it, but though it was the norm and part of the services that he was paying for.

[huggytree]

your in business to make money..if your not making money on a customer you have 2 choices...raise your prices or fire the customer...ive done both methods depending on the customer

you will most likely find the customer isnt willing to pay extra...he's just using you

why are you consulting for more than 5 minutes???? you should make it known that after 5 mins you start the clock and will charge

if your busy enough just fire the customer

i have it easy...i just type in BAD before their name on my cell phone and just never answer...they go away after 2-3 tries.....you dont owe them a phone call or an explanation....just dont return their call....they will figure it out quickly....most likely its not the first time it will have happened to them....

if you choose to explain things you may make them more angry with you....better off to just not return calls and leave them confused

[Wozcreative]

if you choose to explain things you may make them more angry with you....better off to just not return calls and leave them confused

Not really. People don't give up for me like that. I actually had this happen within the last week where a new prospective client had emailed me, but his email was ver in-coherent, email address was very "spammy", they didn't really explain what they wanted, there was no business name associated with his signature, only contact and a badly spelled tagline. Not to mention the email was all typed in the subject line!

I ignored the email because it seemed like it was spam.. he sent me another one with similar wordings, but copied in the subject line and the body.

I didn't answer for days.. just thought of it as spam because of how unprofessional it was. Then I get a text message over the weekend asking me if It is ok to call me.. I asked for his email and that I would set up a time to discuss any projects he may have in mind. Turned out to be the spammer looking dude. Days went by and I forgot about answering him, I just didn't care.. This morning I got another text message from him asking about a response to his email.. They never go away!

Best thing to do is:
a. Tell them what's up and why you guys are not a fit
b. blow up your pricing (which is what I did in his email.. wonder if he will agree? :)
c. Tell them you are busy for the next million years! And I mean a million.. because you know they WILL wait if you say something like two months waiting period.

[Harold Mansfield]

The old bartender in me doesn't need much of a reason to give someone a piece of my mind or "kick them out". But the kinder, customer service oriented me tends to give the benefit of the doubt in every situation until proven otherwise. Most people are generally easy to work with or at least respectful. Usually as long as people are paying, and on time, a lot of water can roll off my back. But there isn't much wiggle room if they go too far. I've only had to do it twice, but once I make the decision that I no longer want you as a client, I send you all of your stuff and erase everything concerning you and your website off of my hard drive. No further conversation is needed.

[MyITGuy]

Its for this type of reason that my agreements/contracts/quotes have clauses in there that state how the hours are billed. Granted, I normally won't actually enforce this language unless a client begins to abuse this privilege...but that is something I keep at my discretion and almost all of my clients are thankful for this.

It should be noted, that even though I may not actually charge them according to their contract, it does show up on their invoice as 'no charge' so they understand there is a value associated with their questions/time they are taking up...but then again my business is focused around time so I log everything into my system, so its something easy for me to do which may not be the case for those who do project/bids or etc...

On the flip side, I did 'fire' a client in May because they were abusing their contract. We contracted for 160 hours per month and they were consistently using 200+ hours per month with the expectation that it fell under their contract. Oh well, this means more time for me to focus on my other clients ;)

Below is the phrasing I use if your interested:

Hourly rate pricing applies to normal business hours, Monday-Friday, 8:00AM - 6:00PM
Activities before 8:00AM and after 6:00PM, weekdays will be billed at 1.5x hours worked.
Work performed on Saturday or Sunday will be billed at 2x hours worked.
Work performed on Holidays will be billed at 3x hours worked.
Urgent responses are billed at 1.5x hours worked.
Emergency responses are billed at 2x hours worked

If a client calls on Sunday, which also happens to be a holiday, and they want it resolved ASAP then my hourly rate could be up to 5x the hourly rate (I wont charge the holiday and weekend rate at the same time).

[huggytree]

you can always raise your prices and let him say 'no thanks' , but then you risk him telling everyone else your too expensive

you can ignore him and hope he goes away....then he may bad mouth you saying you have poor service

you can tell him he's a POS as a customer....you feel great, but its not going to help your word of mouth either


no matter what you do there's a down side.....

ps. dont tell him he's a POS....i was just kidding

[Wozcreative]

Or just say it's not the right fit, the amounts of time he requires and the weekends he needs you to work with is not something you are willing to offer anymore.

[Harold Mansfield]

Hourly rate pricing applies to normal business hours, Monday-Friday, 8:00AM - 6:00PM
Activities before 8:00AM and after 6:00PM, weekdays will be billed at 1.5x hours worked.
Work performed on Saturday or Sunday will be billed at 2x hours worked.
Work performed on Holidays will be billed at 3x hours worked.
Urgent responses are billed at 1.5x hours worked.
Emergency responses are billed at 2x hours worked

If a client calls on Sunday, which also happens to be a holiday, and they want it resolved ASAP then my hourly rate could be up to 5x the hourly rate (I wont charge the holiday and weekend rate at the same time).

Interesting and helpful.
I do spell out expectations when it comes to available hours, but I hadn't thought about the off hour rates.

With most it's not a problem, but with this particular client, it may have been the deterrent I needed to get him to make time during business hours and to stop calling me at 7 p.m. on a Friday and expect to spend an hour or more on the phone as if it was the middle of a weekday.

[Freelancier]

I have a client who likes to call at 5 pm on Friday afternoon with an "emergency". I've learned to just not answer the phone.

You are responsible for all business relationships you have. You make of them what you want to make of them. If the other person doesn't provide the opportunity for a good working relationship, you move them along by refusing future work ("It's not me, it's you!" :) ). Or if you want to work on salvaging the relationship, provide clear instructions to him about your availability and how you work with clients and then stick with that.

I had one client years back who had the same combative communication "skills" as my ex-wife. I dumped him after completing the one job I was required to complete. When he came back for another project quote, I declined and explained that I no longer wished to work with him because the way he communicated with me was not the way I wanted to be communicated with by a client. Telling them the truth tactfully never hurts. He's still free to trash you publicly, but people get tired of that act pretty quickly.

[Harold Mansfield]

Update on this:
This particular client did respond to my email laying out why I won't work with him anymore, with an applogy. I must say I was pretty suprised. I accepted the applogy, but still turned over all of his files and wished him luck.

[huggytree]

maybe you should handle my problem customer for me....id love to fire them and then have THEM tell me they are sorry!

you may be talented at firing

[Harold Mansfield]

maybe you should handle my problem customer for me....id love to fire them and then have THEM tell me they are sorry!

you may be talented at firing

Probably years of bartending and limo driving and being responsible for your own security without making people want to take it out on you. I used to be pretty good at throwing people out and having them thank me for treating them with respect. The bar is the first place people go to relieve stress. So they are usually pissed off at something else before they started causing you a problem.

Clients and customers aren't much different. Unless you really screwed the pooch, usually it's something else that has them on edge. Some people aren't good at separating one thing from another and are just going to be mad at everything that day. They are going to be indignant no matter how respectful and professional you try to be.

I lost most of that patience years ago but I still try to apply it when I can. I never expect anyone to apologize, but I like to leave a bad situation confident that I did all I could to be fair and act professionally. Once I've done that and tried and you are still mean to me, my attitude is pretty much, "OK then. Screw you."

[dave@businessecon.org]

huggytree:

What is POS? I like this but still haven't figured it out. My oldest son who is 16 guessed 'Publically ObScene'. I didn't think so.

Dave

[Business Attorney]

I'm guessing it is short for "Piece Of SomeTHIng"