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View Full Version : A graphic design subsection and a subsection for students might be nice.



Jagella
12-31-2008, 02:05 PM
Since I'm currently studying graphic design at an art school I'm thinking that a section here at the Small Business Forum for students and one for basic graphic design might be nice. Issues covered in the student section might include how topics studied in school relate to the “real world” of small business ownership and how students might conduct their own businesses while still in school. The graphic design section could cover topics like preparing documents for prepress and the design of ads, brochures, flyers, and catalogs.

Just a thought!

Jagella

KristineS
12-31-2008, 07:35 PM
It's an interesting idea. We certainly do encourage everyone to ask questions, and I'm sure a lot of the design and preparation questions would fit well in the Marketing section.
The topic of how college classes applies to the real world is interesting too. I know some of the things I studied I've used quite a bit and others were practically useless.

I'll confer with the Steves and see what they think.

Jagella
01-01-2009, 02:56 PM
The topic of how college classes applies to the real world is interesting too. I know some of the things I studied I've used quite a bit and others were practically useless.

As far as I'm concerned, the toughest part of school is to use it effectively to advance one's career or eventually run a business, perhaps. Like you say much of what a person learns in school may turn out to be useless. The problem is, you don't know what will be useless until you actually get the job or start a business. Since everybody's different, what education is useful and what isn't will vary with the individual. If I end up doing all print work, for instance, the Web design I learned in college won't count for a whole lot.

Anyway, I hope that nobody here misses the educational aspect of this forum. I sure don't.

Jagella

vangogh
01-02-2009, 10:41 AM
I've been thinking about adding a design/development sort of forum. It would have to encompass more than just graphic design, but I think it would be a useful category. I'm not sure if we have enough threads for it at the moment though. What I'd like to see happen is for the forum to grow naturally so as we get enough threads started it will be obvious that we need to start a new forum.

I can see though how design threads may not have a perfect home yet so maybe could use at least a subforum for it specifically. Let me think about it for a few more days. I like the idea, but want to make sure it fits in well. If we do add another forum it will likely have to be more than just graphic design. It might need to be a design and development section at first.

As far as a forum specifically for students. I don't think it's really necessary. I'd rather the forums be organized around the nature of the content instead of separating groups of members. Most of the student related questions would probably fit in the planning your business section.

If you're looking to socialize a little more with people who happen to be students you can set up your own social group. If you visit your profile page (not your user cp, but your profile page) you can set up your own groups within the forum. You can set one up for students. So far the few groups that have been set up aren't getting much attention, but that could be because most people don't realize the groups are there.

Here's my profile page (http://www.small-business-forum.net/members/vangogh.html) if you want to see some of the extras you can set up.

cbscreative
01-02-2009, 01:25 PM
Time for the other Steve to chime in. I like the idea once we figure out the best structure to implement it. We have a start on ad reviews which is somewhat along the lines of the same idea. Since graphic design is an important issue in business, I would hope to see a good level of interest to justify having a dedicated section.

Probably one of the best ways to make this happen is to start threads in the existing forums. Most would probably fit under Marketing. They can always be moved later if needed.

vangogh
01-02-2009, 01:48 PM
I think we may have to end up adding a new section specifically for design and development. A thread now about graphic design could possibly end up in the marketing forums or it could end up in the website management forum depending on what the design is for. In the end it will probably make sense to set up a new section with forums for design and for development. I'm just not sure there would be enough interest yet beyond a few of us.

I know I'd be happy to have that section, since I am a designer/developer and would have plenty to say. But I don't want to start a new section just for me and a few others. Hopefully there's enough interest in the new section since I would like to see us have more discussions around design and development topics.

seolman
01-02-2009, 04:02 PM
What about a Main section called "Promoting Your Business" and eventually under that may fall sub-sections such as "Marketing Ideas" or even the current main section "Internet Marketing". Of course this totally destroys your current menu system but then I'm just trying to be helpful :)

Jagella
01-02-2009, 11:03 PM
As far as a forum specifically for students. I don't think it's really necessary. I'd rather the forums be organized around the nature of the content instead of separating groups of members. Most of the student related questions would probably fit in the planning your business section.

Yeah—I suppose it's not a very good idea. Most students aren't running their own businesses and won't run a business soon after getting out of school.


I've been thinking about adding a design/development sort of forum. It would have to encompass more than just graphic design, but I think it would be a useful category. I'm not sure if we have enough threads for it at the moment though. What I'd like to see happen is for the forum to grow naturally so as we get enough threads started it will be obvious that we need to start a new forum.

A lot of what I'm doing doesn't seem to fit well into the current subsections of this forum. The closest I might get is the marketing subsections, but I see graphic design as more of a tool for marketing rather than marketing itself. Marketing doesn't generally get into the nuts and bolts of design like prepress processes, imaging and drawing software, grades of paper, and different types of scanning and printing hardware. Also, a “design” subsection might include subjects like greeting card design and cartooning, fields that may not be directly related to marketing.

Just some thoughts, Steve. Do what you think is best for the forum.

Jagella

Steve B
01-03-2009, 02:03 AM
It sounds like you're looking for stuff that would be on a forum dedicated to design versus small business. I would imagine there are some of them out there.

Jagella
01-03-2009, 10:54 AM
It sounds like you're looking for stuff that would be on a forum dedicated to design versus small business. I would imagine there are some of them out there.

Hi Steve:

Yes, I've tried some design and illustration forums, but there's very little traffic in many of them and little feedback. In others, the members can be very rude. This forum is much better than anything else I've tried. Not only are the members here very knowledgeable and talented, but they can be very nice people as well. That's why I keep haunting this forum. I'm here to learn, maybe teach, and just have fun interacting with other professionals and business people.

Jagella

cbscreative
01-03-2009, 11:53 AM
I've tried some design and illustration forums, but there's very little traffic in many of them and little feedback. In others, the members can be very rude. This forum is much better than anything else I've tried. Not only are the members here very knowledgeable and talented, but they can be very nice people as well. That's why I keep haunting this forum. I'm here to learn, maybe teach, and just have fun interacting with other professionals and business people.

Amen to that! I used to hang out some on a graphic design forum that was very active, but I lost interest because many GD's can be cynical to the extreme. I will admit that the GD field is among the most unfair of professions because the skill and knowledge required is grossly under-compensated for the most part. However, many of the people in this field respond by diving into a cesspool of hatred for the world around them rather than doing something to change the fact that they are getting shafted. They're not fun to be around.

It's not just GD's either. There are many other forums where the members are rude and unfriendly. What we have here is the exception, and that's a credit to our members who make this forum special.

Blessed
01-03-2009, 03:59 PM
I think a design/development subforum is a great idea!

I could quote lots of the other comments on this thread... but I'm lazy today so I'll just list my replies :)

I agree that a Graphic Design subforum would be too limited

I agree that Graphic Design is a tool of Marketing and technical discussions of it don't really fit in the Marketing subsection

And as the senior graphic designer in a company that had to re-train all of the recently graduated graphic designers so that they could do real-life graphic design I think Jagella might be on to something here... it could be a very informative and fun subforum for those of us who get into these things. I hardly ever visit threads in some sections of this forum just because they aren't things that really interest me or concern me with my business but it is nice knowing they are there and sometimes a new topic pops up that does interest me and I start reading it. I think that is one of the beauties of this forum - it has lots of topics that can appeal to a lot of us who are one (wo)man shows, or the wanna-be small business owners, or those who have years of success managing or assisting the owners of small, mid-sized or larger businesses.

Oh... I just noticed there's another page... better finish reading the thread :D

Jagella
01-03-2009, 10:44 PM
And as the senior graphic designer in a company that had to re-train all of the recently graduated graphic designers so that they could do real-life graphic design I think Jagella might be on to something here...

Blessed, maybe I won't need to be retrained, or so I hope. What do the design schools lack when educating us hopefuls? One thing I've noticed is that a lot of employers want designers with a knowledge of Quarkxpress. My school has us use InDesign. Would it behoove me to learn Quarkxpress? I still have an in depth study of InDesign on my to-do list.

Jagella

cbscreative
01-03-2009, 11:54 PM
A little off topic, but I like your new avatar, Joe. Being a Trekker myself helps too.

Just for fun, here's a pic of my wife and I. It was 8 years ago on Halloween 2000, but I don't look too much different.

http://www.cbscreative.com/images/PicTrekMomDad.jpg

vangogh
01-04-2009, 12:21 AM
So if I were to add a Design & Development forum where do people think it should go. If I had to pick I'd probably place it in the Your Website section, but obviously design doesn't need to specifically be about websites.

The best solution would really be to have a new section with two forums, one each for Design and Development. I'd rather start things as a subforum mostly to let the threads build up some instead of creating an empty section.

What do you think? What if for the moment I add a new subforum to the Website Management forum with the idea that once enough threads build up in the subforum I'll create an entirely new Section and have a Design forum and a Development forum?

seolman
01-04-2009, 01:26 AM
So if I were to add a Design & Development forum where do people think it should go. If I had to pick I'd probably place it in the Your Website section, but obviously design doesn't need to specifically be about websites.

The best solution would really be to have a new section with two forums, one each for Design and Development. I'd rather start things as a subforum mostly to let the threads build up some instead of creating an empty section.

What do you think? What if for the moment I add a new subforum to the Website Management forum with the idea that once enough threads build up in the subforum I'll create an entirely new Section and have a Design forum and a Development forum?

Well, as you are saying Steve, it's difficult to know how much traffic will come until there is a place for people to place the posts. I have another idea that may work. What about a slight change in definition just as an experiment. It would require no change to the Forum at all, just a small text change as follows:

Traditional Marketing
Learn where and how to effectively market your business. Present marketing ideas for review by your peers, including print graphic design concepts and ad campaign ideas.

Internet Marketing
Throw your Internet marketing questions to these wolves, including web graphics for review and critique by experienced webmasters.

If enough concepts come through you might consider some Forum restructuring (i.e. does web marketing belong under marketing?). These types of questions don't really have to be answered until the volume of posts is better demonstrated - what say ye Mr. wax man?

KristineS
01-04-2009, 10:20 AM
Well, it sounds like something will come of this. I'm rather partial to seolman's idea at this point. It lets us dip our toe in the water and see what sort of response we get. If there are enough posts that deal with those subjects, then we can create separate forums.

Makes sense to me.

Jagella
01-04-2009, 02:34 PM
Just for fun, here's a pic of my wife and I. It was 8 years ago on Halloween 2000, but I don't look too much different.

That's a great picture, but we need something more relevent.

http://freeforalldesigns.com/graphics/chittenden-in-space.jpg

Jagella

vangogh
01-04-2009, 03:29 PM
Interesting idea Dave. I guess what I'd like to do is create an actual subforum at the moment so it can fill up with some posts and then turn that subforum into an entirely new section. I would like to talk more about design and development topics and think it makes the most sense to have both be in their own dedicated section. The question is where to add the subforum until we have enough content for the section.

Blessed
01-04-2009, 04:58 PM
Blessed, maybe I won't need to be retrained, or so I hope. What do the design schools lack when educating us hopefuls? One thing I've noticed is that a lot of employers want designers with a knowledge of Quarkxpress. My school has us use InDesign. Would it behoove me to learn Quarkxpress? I still have an in depth study of InDesign on my to-do list.

Jagella

I hope you don't need retrained too... :) but, yes you definitely need to learn Quark. Additionally, if you end up doing work that gets printed on two-three or four color presses that isn't CMYK - you need to make sure that you know how to properly create those files. Those were two biggies I always had to deal with when training new grads. It's been about five years since I trained a new grad but back then it seemed like he had all the training he'd ever need for four color work but had never learned how to design for the two or three color printing - which a lot of people still do. I also had to round out their educations about bleeds, crop marks, collecting files, printing impositions, how to make duo-tones that print properly, making black & white photos that print properly, why some of the short cuts they learned in school (like importing PSD files directly into InDesign files) were bad ideas, creating files that PDF'd properly for proof and for print, outlining fonts in logos and just making a note file that states what those fonts are for future references - ideally saving two versions - one with outlined fonts to use for placement in print jobs and one without the fonts outlined saved in an archive folder somewhere for future reference/modifications and all kinds of other things that you learn when you are the chief customer-provided file troubleshooter and designer at a traditional print shop!

There's lots more I'm sure - some of the retraining I had to do was specific to our company but most of it was things that the new grads had never even heard of or were taught the way that "should" work, not the way that things really "did" work.

You are a step ahead of most of the people I've dealt with - you're already asking questions. I can't tell you how many new grads I had come in ready to teach me because they were sure that since I didn't have the degree or any recent college education that I didn't know anything... usually after they fell flat on their face once or twice and got chewed out by the production supervisor, our supervisor, the plant manager and/or the sales person they were ready to listen to what I had to say. A couple of them I've developed great friendships with and we stay in touch even though we don't work together anymore!

seolman
01-04-2009, 10:33 PM
Interesting idea Dave. I guess what I'd like to do is create an actual subforum at the moment so it can fill up with some posts and then turn that subforum into an entirely new section. I would like to talk more about design and development topics and think it makes the most sense to have both be in their own dedicated section. The question is where to add the subforum until we have enough content for the section.

Hmmm...seems like it's a toss up between Traditional and Internet Marketing IMHO. I suggest you capture a small woodland creature. If it has an even number of teeth in it's lower jaw, go for the Traditional Marketing option, odd number - Web Marketing. Otherwise do a coin toss, whichever is the easiest way to decide. Personally I like the woodland creature concept simply for the extra sunshine and outdoor activity it brings but...your call.

Jagella
01-04-2009, 10:42 PM
...yes you definitely need to learn Quark.

I'll place that on my to-do list.


Additionally, if you end up doing work that gets printed on two-three or four color presses that isn't CMYK - you need to make sure that you know how to properly create those files. Those were two biggies I always had to deal with when training new grads.

In my courses we touched on the different color spaces aside from RGB and CMYK, but I only ended up using the latter two.


I can't tell you how many new grads I had come in ready to teach me because they were sure that since I didn't have the degree or any recent college education that I didn't know anything... usually after they fell flat on their face once or twice and got chewed out by the production supervisor, our supervisor, the plant manager and/or the sales person they were ready to listen to what I had to say.

That's a scenario I hope to avoid.


You are a step ahead of most of the people I've dealt with - you're already asking questions.

Here's another question: How do I make myself irresistible to clients or employers if I decide to work for somebody else?

Anyway, yours is an awesome post, Blessed. It's exactly what I'm looking for in this forum.

Jagella

cbscreative
01-04-2009, 11:30 PM
Joe, if we need something in a more relevant setting, here is one from 2002.

http://www.cbscreative.com/images/PicSTFamily2002.jpg

This brings back memories for sure. My son in the forground is now taller than everyone except me, and I am only an inch or two taller. Amazing how much difference 6 years can make when you dig up pics. A lot of that growth was in a year though. Earlier this year, the doctor informed us that he grew 6 inches and gained 30 lbs in 12 months. What a growth spurt! Not to mention the clothing and grocery bill.

To be back on subject, I think this could be an interesting subject on the SBF and look forward to seeing the discussions and developments.

SteveC
01-04-2009, 11:45 PM
Getting back on subject... I personally am of the opinion that this is a business forum... As a business forum it should remain focused on business issues and not dilute its unique position by offering sub-categories related to specific industries, students studying subjects, etc.

Just my opinion of course.

Jagella
01-05-2009, 12:05 AM
To be back on subject, I think this could be an interesting subject on the SBF and look forward to seeing the discussions and developments.

That's quite a tribe, Steve, but before we catch heck, we better get back to—what were we discussing? Oh yes, a design and development section. I've often wondered where I would discuss issues like process colors, trapping and misregistration. After some of my exchanges with Blessed, I can see that a section to do just that would be a good idea. But of course it's a good idea! I thought of it, didn't I? :D

Jagella

Jagella
01-05-2009, 12:20 AM
Getting back on subject... I personally am of the opinion that this is a business forum... As a business forum it should remain focused on business issues and not dilute its unique position by offering sub-categories related to specific industries, students studying subjects, etc.

Just my opinion of course.

Hmmm. I can certainly understand what you're saying, Steve, but if we stick strictly to business issues like finance, marketing, and business law, then we'd have to remove sections that are already in the forum. The website management section, my personal favorite, would be much less useful if we didn't discuss topics like HTML, Flash, and CSS. Personally, I see myself as both a businessperson and a designer (illustrator and artist). I can't be the former without being the latter, so my ability to do well in both efforts is critical to my success.

As for the student section, I think you may be beating a dead horse. I already mentioned that I have a change of heart about it, and it would be better to not include such a section. Nobody else seems to favor it either.

Thanks for the input.

Jagella

SteveC
01-05-2009, 12:56 AM
This thread was asking for opinions and so I shared mine, if you don’t appreciate a different point of view, well then I’m sorry and perhaps you shouldn't ask such open ended questions in the first place... and as to the logic that website management does not fall within general business practises, well I don’t follow that logic nor do I agree with it.

Once again I stick by my opinion that a dedicated design sub-section would dilute the unique appeal of these forums.

vangogh
01-05-2009, 10:46 AM
As a business forum it should remain focused on business issues and not dilute its unique position by offering sub-categories related to specific industries, students studying subjects, etc.

I absolutely see where you're coming from. It's been one of the things on my mind about adding design and development topics. Personally the topics are of interest to me. I frequent other forums to discuss design and development as it is and wouldn't mind seeing some of those discussions here. At the same time I realize they are more specific than a general small business forum. If we include them why not include sections specific to other industries.

I think design and development could work here since most if not all of our businesses have need of design. If we take things online at all then we'd have that same need for development. I know quite a few people here work on their own sites so a section devoted to answering their questions would be beneficial. I'm also of the opinion that we don't all need to be interested in every topic here, though I certainly understand the desire not to take things too far off topic.

Much of the above goes into my thinking of creating a subforum. I'm thinking a subforum of Website Management makes the most sense, though it's hardly a perfect fit there. If the community starts filling up the subforum with threads then I think a section devoted to design and development makes sense. Ultimately I'd like the community to decide what topics we should be discussing here. But I want to the community to decide based on the actual conversations started and not just based on a suggestion from one or two people.

This is still a tough call since I can see good reasons for adding design/development forums and I can also see good reasons for not including them. I am leaning toward adding a subforum and seeing what happens.

Jagella
01-05-2009, 11:14 AM
This is still a tough call since I can see good reasons for adding design/development forums and I can also see good reasons for not including them. I am leaning toward adding a subforum and seeing what happens.

I don't see how trying a design-development subsection could hurt. If it doesn't fit for some reason, you can always take it out. There does seem to be support for one based on what most people on this thread are saying.

Just my 2¢.

Jagella

cbscreative
01-05-2009, 01:06 PM
I was thinking along the same lines as you, vangogh, as the subject does have direct application to small business. I would want to see it relevant to business issues and not an industry specific area. We have a lot of web discussions here too, and I believe they help a lot of people who are not in web design.

vangogh
01-05-2009, 02:09 PM
Joe I don't think the section would hurt, but I do think we should stick to the idea of being a small business forum so I think it's also important to not stray too far from those small business roots. I do think enough small businesses can use help with design and development topics though to include them here.

That's why I think starting as a subforum makes the most sense. It will offer a place to start design and development discussions and also let us see how it grows without disturbing the rest of the place. I think I will add another subforum to the Website Management forum. I know design and development topics can fall under several forums here, but Website Management seems best to me.

I'll set up the subforum in a few minutes.

vangogh
01-05-2009, 02:17 PM
Ok, I've gone ahead and added a new Design & Development subforum to the Website Management forum. That location isn't etched in stone and like I said a few times if the subforum proves popular enough with the community we can promote it to a full forum.

I also renamed the Guerrilla Marketing subforum to be an Advertising Review subforum. The Guerrilla Marketing one didn't get much love and it probably wasn't necessary and we have another discussion going about having a dedicated place to ask for Advertising Reviews.

I'll start moving a few threads around so they're once again in the most logical place.

Jagella
01-06-2009, 12:20 PM
Ok, I've gone ahead and added a new Design & Development subforum to the Website Management forum

It looks good to me, Steve. It's just what I was looking for. Thanks.

Jagella

vangogh
01-06-2009, 08:01 PM
Glad to oblige Joe. I may move a few of the Website Management threads in there at some point to fill up the new subforum a little.

Vivid Color Zack
01-08-2009, 12:54 PM
Hi Steve:

Yes, I've tried some design and illustration forums, but there's very little traffic in many of them and little feedback. In others, the members can be very rude. This forum is much better than anything else I've tried. Not only are the members here very knowledgeable and talented, but they can be very nice people as well. That's why I keep haunting this forum. I'm here to learn, maybe teach, and just have fun interacting with other professionals and business people.

Jagella

I'll agree with you on the rudeness part. Graphic design forums are ridiculous. I've stopped visiting them unless I really need help with something. You can find tutorials for almost every function or desire in creative suite just using google anyway.

vangogh
01-08-2009, 01:31 PM
There are a few here and there where the majority of members are still nice, but I know what you mean. Before I ever joined a forum I used to read a lot of them. Mostly webmaster and seo forums. On some people were ridiculously rude to each other. I'd see people agreeing on their point, but still insulting each other. I swore when I finally joined forums and start posting I would be the opposite.

If you all want to know why I'm usually the diplomat, it's from watching so many people argue over nothing. And even if you're in the right in the argument you still come off looking bad.

Jagella
01-10-2009, 12:22 AM
I'll agree with you on the rudeness part. Graphic design forums are ridiculous. I've stopped visiting them unless I really need help with something. You can find tutorials for almost every function or desire in creative suite just using google anyway.

Why do you think that is? I've wondered if it has to do with the distance and relative anonymity afforded by the Internet coupled with people's inner (spoiled) child. Also, publicly displaying one's creative work makes the artist very vulnerable, and some people cannot resist tearing down the other person, or so it seems.

Jagella

Jagella
01-10-2009, 12:26 AM
I swore when I finally joined forums and start posting I would be the opposite.

It helps to set a good example. On the Web site reviews section I told myself that I would graciously accept criticism regarding my portfolio and not snip back at anybody. Who do you think I got that from? :rolleyes:

Jagella

vangogh
01-10-2009, 12:50 AM
You got a lot of constructive criticism that's helping you create a better portfolio page. It is looking better too.

cbscreative
01-10-2009, 02:30 PM
Why do you think that is? I've wondered if it has to do with the distance and relative anonymity afforded by the Internet coupled with people's inner (spoiled) child. Also, publicly displaying one's creative work makes the artist very vulnerable, and some people cannot resist tearing down the other person, or so it seems.

I suppose any answer we come up with is speculation, but I provided some reasons I believe contribute to this in an earlier post. I base my suspicions about the reason on my years of experience in the graphic design field.

Many graphic designers are very cynical. When you talk to them privately, it becomes more evident. They need to put on the :) when dealing with the public, but as soon as the client leaves you see a different side of them. Due to the "faceless" nature of the Internet, I suspect they feel more free to show the side most people don't see, and lash out at others the way they wish they could to their boss.

As for the reason so many are this way, I think I have a pretty good idea. You see an artist fresh out of school and they are usually enthusiastic and positive. After a few years, they're cranky and cynical. What happens? Well, one thing is constant stress. The other thing is that in most cases, the pay is disproportionately low. The majority of graphic design positions pay about the same as a low or moderate skill level job in manufacturing, and that gets old after several years in the field, especially if they are paying off student loans.

Graphic design can be fun and rewarding, but I think the majority are stressed and getting the short end of the stick. Since they know that, they either change the situation or become resentful. Unfortunately, I think too many choose option B.

Jagella
01-25-2009, 02:06 PM
As for the reason so many are this way, I think I have a pretty good idea. You see an artist fresh out of school and they are usually enthusiastic and positive. After a few years, they're cranky and cynical. What happens? Well, one thing is constant stress. The other thing is that in most cases, the pay is disproportionately low. The majority of graphic design positions pay about the same as a low or moderate skill level job in manufacturing, and that gets old after several years in the field, especially if they are paying off student loans.

Hmmm. Artists are often stereotyped as being neurotic, and it seems there's some truth to it. Graphic design is considered to be a stressful occupation, although so far I can't say I've had much trouble with stress.

Jagella

KristineS
01-26-2009, 01:01 PM
I'd have to say that I think part of the problem is there can be a lack of respect in some sectors of the business world too. Marketing (and I'm lumping designers in that designation) can be seen as the snake oil salepeople and not really necessary. If you spend enough time having to defend the very existence of your profession and why it's worth the money, eventually you do get a bit cynical.

cbscreative
01-26-2009, 01:10 PM
I'd have to say that I think part of the problem is there can be a lack of respect in some sectors of the business world too. Marketing (and I'm lumping designers in that designation) can be seen as the snake oil salepeople and not really necessary. If you spend enough time having to defend the very existence of your profession and why it's worth the money, eventually you do get a bit cynical.

Or, you could just let the people who know the value of good marketing use it to their advantage while the rest wonder why life is so cruel.

KristineS
01-26-2009, 03:58 PM
Yeah, that's an option too, but sometimes it is hard to find those people.