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KingHippo
12-05-2008, 10:12 PM
Here's the scenario. I live about two miles away from a chain restaurant (not fast food) that I like a lot. I decided that in order to save some money I would do the "curbside" or to go thing there. So instead of them delivering food to me (something they don't even offer) that means I have to get in my car and drive there and pick up the food at the hostess stand or bar and then take it home. Now here's the issue. Normally you tip 15 - 20% if you sit down at a restaurant and get served. Are you supposed to tip the bartender or hostess if you are picking stuff up inside the restaurant? How about if it is true "curbside" and a guy takes the food out to your car for you?

P.S. This was probably covered on Seinfeld but I think I missed that episode.

Evan
12-05-2008, 11:06 PM
I think these "curbside" things came out post-Seinfeld, so it may not have been addressed. Drats!

Call me cheap, but I don't even think tipping is necessary. The issue becomes, as you raise, if you frequent that restaurant. Because they're going to know "Joe Schmo" called in again and you're not going to tip. Just the opposite can happen, you leave a tip, so they expect the same amount -- which can be bad if you're a generous tipper.

I don't think a percentage really should be assigned, as it depends. A $100 order for the office -- is that worth a $10 / $15 / $20 tip for them to walk it to your car? I think tipping should be for actual service, not bringing something over to your car. You certainly don't tip the McDonald's worker who brings your burger over to your car after they mess something up with your order and tell you to pull forward -- so how is this different?

If a tip was to be justified, I could see a buck or two, but that's it. I'd probably only give it if the weather was crappy -- raining/snowing. But if it's 75 and sunny -- you know they're enjoying the outdoors as much as anybody.

Plus typically the people who bring these things to your car are the hostesses which are paid more then the wait staff.

orion_joel
12-06-2008, 12:20 AM
I frequent a coffee shop, i always tip, but only every the change, which from a cup of coffee I get 40cents change and throw it in the tip jar.

If it was curbside, and say i order $18 worth of food i would just give them a $20 and they can have the change. Pretty much for me it comes down to i hate carrying around coins so if i can get rid of them i do. All up in a week i may tip $2.80, but i figure better $2.80 in their tip jar for the staff then sitting in 20cent pieces in my pocket.

I used to keep every bit of change at one point, and it does quickly build up over a couple of months.

Steve B
12-06-2008, 03:25 AM
I don't think it is necessary to tip in the situation you descibe.

billbenson
12-06-2008, 08:35 AM
Look at it differently. I suspect tipping started as a thank you for good service. It slowly became customary. As it became customary, the restaurant owners dropped wages. I believe today, restaurant service personnel can be paid below the minimum wage, because the IRS knows they make it up in tips. They are supposed to report the tips to the IRS. Do you really think they report all of the tip income?

Another issue. The servers are really not a skilled professional except perhaps in fine restaruants. A friend was a waiter for years. He has seen drinks served with urine. That does happen if the server doesn't like you from time to time.

Its an abusive industry. In a busy restaurant, the chefs and cooks (there is a big difference) work their butts off in a high presure environment. The dishwashers and other service help are underpaid and frequently illegal immigrants. The wait staff out front is underpaid because you are expected to subsidize their salary. It gives by and large non skilled workers an expectation of a tip.

This is an industry issue. Taxi's are the same way. A friend was a taxi driver until just recently when he just got tired of it and other drivers had been shot or robbed. Company didn't care. Get shot on the job, you are fired and no help for medical. They really make no money without tips.

Forgot to mention the restaurants that include the tip in the bill and many people double tip not realizing it

So it's complicated and not an easy call. I'd say, tip according to what whoever you are dealing with should make as an hourly salary. 20% for restaurant service seems high to me. I pretty much tip 10% and then modify that on the quality of service.

KristineS
12-06-2008, 02:23 PM
For the curbside stuff or when I go in and pick it up, I don't tip. It's a small transaction and no one really had to do anything other than take my money and give me my food.

I'm a very good tipper when I go to a sit down meal though. I think being a member of the waitstaff is a very tough job, so I will tip very well if the service is good.

cbscreative
12-06-2008, 04:52 PM
I can offer some additional insight as someone who actually was a waiter at one time. First though, let me address the original question. I would generally tip even for takeout in many cases. I know these people are not making a lot of money, so tips are appreciated. If you frequent the takeout place, the point about getting better service and food if they know you will tip is very, very accurate.

Even though it was many years ago when I was a waiter, I still cringe at the attitude that it is not skilled labor or a "real job" like many people view it. I have done many types of work in my life, and being a waiter was the most challenging of any jobs I have ever done. Add to that the prevailing attitude that the job is "menial" and I can understand the temptation to lash back like some servers would do. I worked 3½ years in that field. I did not witness anything vindicative toward customers, but we certainly could have had reasons, so it doesn't surprise me that some people would go that far.

As for the comments about about pay, yes, servers make below minimum wage as a base pay. It was approx half minimum wage when I was doing it. The tips were shared with whoever was bartending, and also with bussers, so servers did not keep all the loot. In addition to that, there were "side duties" so the server usually spent an extra 30-60 minutes after being taken off the floor (no longer given new tables to serve as business slows down) doing these side duties before leaving. Servers who were assigned "closing" were "on the floor" until close, and they would have closing duties.

Bottom line, without tips, server pay sucks. Fortunately, there are people who have either done the job (most former servers are very generous tippers) or people who are just generous and appreciative, so the pay usually balances out. Of course, that depends on how busy the restaurant is and the type of patrons you are getting.

I should also comment on the hostess making more money. Sure, as far as I know, they make minimum wage, and the places where I worked did not share tips with them. So yeah, they're really raking in the bucks.

I agree that it is a very abusive industry. I would go so far as to say it is a very good thing I was already a Christian before doing that job. It could easily have made me an atheist otherwise. I also learned a lot about people who call themselves Christian. You would expect the best from them (which I did), but I quickly learned that I would much rather wait on a heathen. Catholics are almost always an exception, I really enjoyed waiting on them. It's the majority of protestants that bring shame to the faith in the way they treat restaurant servers. BTW, I am protestant, so that job was a real eye opener.

If we have any other people here who have been servers, I'm sure the perspectives could prove interesting. Everything you think know will be shaken if you ever try that job. If you are idealistic, kiss your idealism goodbye. Just be careful not to get cynical, it would be very easy to do.

orion_joel
12-06-2008, 09:09 PM
I was actually under the impression that the term TIP stood for "To Insure Promptness", however please do correct me if i am wrong.

If this is the case then i think the entire point is starting to be missed, very few places i have gone, give good service because they think they may get a tip. More often you will find the one waiter/waitress, who gives good service no matter what, and so often you see they are the ones the customer stop to give a tip to.

One guy i know like this, has many times had customer tip him $50 even when he was working a local coffee shop. While others there i do not think have ever had a tip directly given at all, and the funny thing is they wonder why but never do any different then the absolute minimum.

billbenson
12-07-2008, 07:09 AM
Steve, when I said it was by and large non skilled labor, near me there is a 4 star ish restaurant, a few steak and ales and chillis sort of places. Also coffee shops. Except for the coffee shop, all of these places try to employ cute college age girls for wait staff. The Mexican restaurant tries to employ Latinos, but there aren't vary many legal Latinos in our area ton of illegal ones working in back. The coffee shops all seem to hire middle aged hags for wait staff. They get you your food, but they aren't generally pleasant or cute. They are probably also the only grouping that make a career out of it. These people are pretty much order takers.

Now in San Francisco, New York, and most major cities, the above doesn't fly. I would assume you worked in restaurants where you had to be professional, hence your objection to my comment. I spent a good percentage of my career wining and dining clients in fine restaurants. Those waiters, by and large were professionals. My friend who was a waiter in a 4 star restaurant was as well. He would read a table and either play the sedate formal waiter or have the entire table laughing depending on the situation. He was very salesy. He got good tips.

It would bother me if tips were shared other than with the bartender. I said I tip 10% and then adjust from there. It's really rare that I would tip less than 15%. It would really bother me if my tip didn't go directly to the person I was tipping but rather averaged over the wait staff. I'm tipping the person that served me for the service they provided, also realizing they get paid a lousy basic salary and its a hard job.

cbscreative
12-07-2008, 04:22 PM
For clarity, I was referring to places above the average line. I worked for a more middle ground place for 3 years which I would classify as a couple notches or so higher than a place like Applebee's. For 6 months before getting out of that work, I worked for a place that was a little higher end, but no stars in the rating.

I always did well for whatever the circumstances were (some nights were just plain "dead"). Both places did a pretty decent job of training and treated us as professionals. I credit them for at least placing a value on wait staff and trying to communicate how important our role was. We were not "order takers" and they continually emphasized that.

In spite of how trying it was at times, it was a time of great personal growth for me, and I am glad for the expereince. For the most part, I really enjoyed the job, but it was more challenging than I would have thought, and it had its moments of bitter frustration. At the end of the shift though, it was over. You got to leave it all behind because it no longer mattered.

It's because I cared and poured myself into the job that I did well. People can sense the difference, and they generally respond well to it. Even if I thought that the tip would be "lousy" I still did my best anyway. After you do that job a while, you get a pretty accurate sense of what to expect, and it usually proves correct. I figure even the lousy tips were probably good in the minds of the people leaving them, and better than they would have been if I slacked on service.

The ones that really did bother me are the ones that bother any server. It was rare, but on occasion, I did get "stiffed" (the industry term for no tip). I know there are people out there who don't believe in tipping, but I don't believe they should go to a place where tipping is expected. They are free to have that belief, but to exercise it in a restaurant where they know it is common courtesy is not a "right." They may think of it as a "statement" but I put them in the same category as a thief. They are not hurting the restaurant at all, so their statement is null and void. The only thing they really accomplish is stealing from another human being who rightfully earned wages they refuse to pay.

Don't even get me started on cheap tips with a gospel tract. That opens the door for all kinds of shameful behavior perpetrated on servers (and others) in the name of God. If there is any group of people who should be especially generous, it ought to be Christians. My expereince as a server taught me a lot about why people reject the faith when they see the kinds of things I have seen. I can't and won't defend the behavior of some of my fellow believers, but I will say that God has nothing to do it. It stems from human tradition polluting the Bible. That's nothing new though, even Jesus had scathing criticism for the religious people of his day.

I hope no one reads too much into that or misunderstands it. I hate religious Christianity, but there is the other group of real Christians. When disaster stikes, they are there responding generously. They are involved in every imagineable type of cause to ease human suffering. They give their time and their money, and they treat everyone with respect. It's the other group (the majority unfortunately) that judge rather than help. I am not alone in my disdain, Jesus told us a clear parable about sheep and goats. But I did want to clarify my point a little further.

OK, I hope to keep my posts shorter now that you all know a bit more about me.

billbenson
12-07-2008, 06:09 PM
It sounds like we pretty much agree Steve. A competent server is a sales person. He / she should be paid on performance.

On the religious issue - we had this discussion on the last forum, but growing up in an extremist religious environment left me pretty much agnostic and certainly anti church. My wife goes to church and they were telling the congregation who they HAD to vote for if they believed in God. And every church she goes to pressures her into donations. I'm sure there are credible churches and religious organizations, but I've had very negative experiences over my life.

Watchdog
12-07-2008, 08:02 PM
There are times I tip and times I don't - it's all about service to me. If I'm going to sit and coffee clutch with friends or even by myself - I can dish out a 3 dollar tip for buck and a half coffee...if we're eating out somewhere nice I can average 20% or more for a tip...last night I sat down and chowed a 48 ounce prime rib for 54 bucks..total bill my wife and I and a another couple that came with us 178.00 and we left a 40.00 tip for the waitress and a 10.00dollars for the valet - she had a few other tables so she didn't do to bad.

I don't tip for fast food or all you can eat joints - I refuse to tip for someone to simply pick up my plate. I would hope the owner is paying these folks an hourly wage.

http://www.myshoppass.com/blog/view/id_31/title_michaels-house-of-prime-pewaukee-wi/

cbscreative
12-07-2008, 09:32 PM
Watchdog, you hit it right on! It's not always about percentage, and your illustrations were perfect. If you're taking a table in a tip environment, like your coffee clutch example, the server is losing money if you tip by percentage. As someone who has been there, I can tell you for certain that there are not too many people who understand that. I can't tell you how many times 5+ people will take 90 minutes at a prime real estate table, order light, and only tip a percentage (especially when it's 10%).

Bill, I think we do agree on a lot. As for the faith issue, you might be surprised that I would agree with you more than you would expect. I'm not the least bit surprised by your anti church attitude, the things I hear from most pulpits make me want to gag. There is a lot of truth in most churches, I think, but there is just enough tradition to strangle the life out of that truth. There are good churches, just not very many of them unless you fit their mold. The irony of the whole thing is that God wouldn't fit their mold either.

But this thread is about tipping. The above is more related than it seems though because God would be an awesome tipper.

Evan
12-07-2008, 09:33 PM
The only thing they really accomplish is stealing from another human being who rightfully earned wages they refuse to pay.

If the restaurants were forced to pay reasonable wages, then you'd have rightfully earned your wages without needing to subsidize it with tips. I don't obviously agree with leaving no tip, but it is definitely an issue with the industry and not the individual.

cbscreative
12-07-2008, 11:53 PM
I don't have a problem with the way the structure is set up for the most part. If restaurants paid more in wages, menu prices would go up (cheap tippers would really be in for a shock), and all servers would be rewarded equally regardless of skill or the quality of service they provide. The quality of service would be reduced to that of _____ (I'll let you fill in the blank). I actually think more jobs should be set up this way (performance pay). Those who put in more effort earn more money.

Taxes and politicians would be a great example of how the restaurant structure could improve the system. I would like to have the opportunity to reward the ones who do their job well by tipping them voluntarily, and let the ones who don't figure out how they can survive on half of minimum wage. That would change the dynamics of gov't for sure.

Steve B
12-08-2008, 04:39 AM
The original poster really got quite a bonus with all this discussion!

cbscreative
12-08-2008, 11:25 AM
The original poster really got quite a bonus with all this discussion!
Agreed. LOL.

billbenson
12-08-2008, 05:20 PM
The original poster really got quite a bonus with all this discussion!

Ya, this thing has gone all over the map.

In response to your post above, Steve, the problem is is you are almost making the customer the employer when they are paying directly for service. In comparison, a straight commission sales person doesn't have the customer handing them their pay check directly. It puts the customer in a very uncomfortable position on a number of fronts. I go out to dinner to relax, not play employer. But that is in fact what you are doing.

I don't see a way around it, but it's not a good structure.

Dan Furman
12-08-2008, 06:57 PM
For the curbside stuff or when I go in and pick it up, I don't tip. It's a small transaction and no one really had to do anything other than take my money and give me my food.

I'm a very good tipper when I go to a sit down meal though. I think being a member of the waitstaff is a very tough job, so I will tip very well if the service is good.

I'm an over-tipper myself. I'll routinely tip 20% for average service, and 25-30% for good, etc.

Personally, I do tip the curbside people if they bring me the food, make change, etc.

KristineS
12-08-2008, 07:45 PM
I may have to rethink my curbside tipping policy. I don't do it often and it's such a short transaction, to be honest I've never really thought about it. You guys bring up some good points here though.

Evan
12-08-2008, 09:04 PM
If restaurants paid more in wages, menu prices would go up (cheap tippers would really be in for a shock), and all servers would be rewarded equally regardless of skill or the quality of service they provide. I actually think more jobs should be set up this way (performance pay). Those who put in more effort earn more money.

Taxes and politicians would be a great example of how the restaurant structure could improve the system. I would like to have the opportunity to reward the ones who do their job well by tipping them voluntarily, and let the ones who don't figure out how they can survive on half of minimum wage. That would change the dynamics of gov't for sure.

Perhaps the benefit of higher prices in restaurants would be more eating at home and less eating out. I'm sure restaurants really haven't helped the obesity epidemic as well.

Many restaurants split tips, so in a way people are rewarded regardless of their skill or quality of service. This generally explains why some wait staffs don't care because they know they'll get something at the end of the night from other people.

Regarding taxes and politicians, I think there is a better solution -- term limits. Politics should never be a career.

orion_joel
12-08-2008, 11:53 PM
Wow, there is a lot i want to respond to in this thread now.

On the curbside idea, i think that unless it is going to be more then the order itself, it is often worth just saying keep the change. Really if it is a couple of dollars, so be it, saves you having to sit in the car while the food gets cold, so the server can run in get change and bring it back, and this assumes someone does not interrupt them in the process. Maybe it is worth waiting if it is more then about $5 but depends on the size of the order i guess.

On the front of performance based pay i agree and disagree. For the first point how do you define a solid benchmark that is going to be achievable. Even in restaurant service which we are discussing it is not possible to create an even playing field for everyone without much work. You could allocate area's of the room to different servers, but then one may have all their tables full and another may only have 50% of their tables full. The server with 50% full tables may do twice as good a job as the other server, but still only has half the potential for tips.

Performance based pay is potentially the best solution, for many industries however it is setting reasonable and consistent benchmarks for everyone that does not disadvantage another. For example i work in a high volume processing environment, i have people that can process 1000 items in an 8 hour shift, while others can barely achieve 20% of that. For the most part the difference is that the higher performing workers will try and get the jobs they like to do, while the other people end up having to do other things which are not as quick to process. There is really little chance that we could make a system that everyone would be happy with.

This is not to say that performance based pay is not potentially a good idea, in many area, it is just something that would require a great deal of legwork to get properly setup.

cbscreative
12-08-2008, 11:59 PM
Bill, I can't claim to identify with any level of "discomfort" so that perspective is interesting. A good server should help make your experience both relaxing and enjoyable.

Dan, I very much agree. My percentages are pretty much the same. It has to be pretty below average service for me to only tip 15%.

Evan, I used my example mostly in jest. Although I may like the idea for its simplicity, I don't think it would be easy to implement. Just finding ways to avoid corruption with such a system would be a challenge. When I'm being serious, I think FairTax is a good plan and would be great news for our economy.

I'm surprised that restaurants would split tips among servers, I believe that is a VERY bad idea, and I would not patronize a restaurant if I knew they had such a policy. When I had to split tips, as I recall, it was 10% total, which was then split between the busser(s) and bartender. Although others who have been servers may have had a different experience, the places I worked were very team oriented. The bussers, bartenders, and wait staff worked exceptionally well together and helped each other out. Customer satisfaction was outstanding because of it.

I think the structure works fine. The "abuse" I agreed with earlier comes from customers mostly, and even that is actually rare. It just has a lasting impact because it's hard not to take it personally when it happens.

I should also point out that my comments are from a more middle+ perspective on the restaurant scale. I don't go to restaurants a lot, but when I do, something in the Olive Garden class is as low as I care to go. I gravitate toward places where wait staff are better trained and food quality is higher. I am much more likely to have an enjoyable experience if the servers are making decent enough money to stay motivated. I expect a certain standard from these places, and I don't mind paying for it or tipping for it.

Blessed
12-09-2008, 11:49 AM
I'm a bit of an above average tipper myself and I always tip carryout service too (not a lot, just a little bit) it's just something we were taught growing up. Treat the server nice and they should be nice to you and they should get a nice tip. If I feel like I've gotten bad or indifferent service from a server I will leave a 10-15% tip though.

My best tipping story though is one day Hubby and I were headed out of town for our anniversary one weekend and we stopped at a middle of the road restaurant - I think it might have been a Country Kitchen, but I don't remember. Anyway our server was having a BAD day. She was a middle aged lady and it was obvious that she needed the job, was under a lot of pressure and was new. The other table she was serving was full of rude and obnoxious people. By the time she got to us she was so flustered and upset that she got our order wrong, it took awhile to get it to us and etc... we weren't in a hurry and could see the other people being rude, hear her boss yelling at her and etc... We eventually got our meal, the manager came and apologized and we told him not to worry about it and when we left we left a $20 tip on the table (our meal had cost around $25 total). Just as we were about to get into our truck and leave the manager and the waitress came running out and we had to go back in the restaurant and explain to the manager that yes we did leave a $20 tip for the waitress and we left it because we could tell she was new, was trying really hard and was having a bad day and we wanted to make things a little better for her. The manager, who needed some lessons in managing people, was speechless and the waitress was in tears and was very grateful we saw her again in the same restaurant a few months later and she was doing much better, had a new manager and remembered us. This time we left a reasonable tip.

For me tipping is usually a way to say "thanks for a great job" but sometimes it's a way for me to reach out with compassion to another individual to say "I can tell you're trying - keep up the good work, you can do it!"

cbscreative
12-09-2008, 01:27 PM
Great example, Blessed! I'm glad it worked out for that server and that she got a new manager. I know there are servers who work under bad management, and that is especially sad because the job is challenging enough without that. I always had great mangers so I never had to deal with anything like that. Good managers lead by example. When they know you are really busy, they help out: they make salads, tray up food orders, etc. Other servers who are less busy will do the same thing.

It amazes me that a place where everyone is looking out only for themselves could stay in business very long. If one server was having a particularly rough time in the places I worked, the others would do whatever they could to help knowing that everyone gets a turn at that eventually. For those who have worked in places without that support, they would have an especially grim view of the restaurant business.

billbenson
12-09-2008, 01:43 PM
Of course there is the other kind of tip...

I had a beer in an airport bar one day. I left a tip. Mistook a $100 bill for a $1. I don't normally carry 100 dollar bills. Somebody got a great tip that day for a $5 beer.

Evan
12-09-2008, 02:19 PM
Tips, at Starbucks, for example, (not a restaurant, but still) are usually shared jointly by all employees and it goes based on hours. So say there are 10 employees, each of whom works 10 hours each week. You may work in the morning when it's busy and get a lot of tips. Say it was $50 in tips, and there were 2 others working with you during that shift. Well, at the end of the week they'll allocate all the tips based on the # of hours worked, so it's an extra little boost. Great if you work the 5pm-11pm shift when so few people frequent the store. Not as good when you start at 5am and work til 10am when the place it at its peak.

Of course that system is a bit more complex than most others, where it's usually just a flat percentage goes to others. But I've seen it a bit higher than 10%!

Bill -- $95 tip on $5 beer, very nice. What can I get you? :P

cbscreative
12-09-2008, 03:33 PM
http://www.cbscreative.com/images/beer.jpg

Bill, are you ready for a refill on that beer?

billbenson
12-09-2008, 04:14 PM
Your prompt Steve. I guess that's why you got good tips :)