Just thought I'd share this

[cbscreative]

A little while ago I received an email from an offshore content writing source. It's the usual cheap outsourcing you would expect (a whopping $5.50 for 500 words :rolleyes:), but the location of their lack of quality control was quite ironic.

Here's a quote from the email:


Right now we can able to produce 50, 500 words high quality articles per day at any topic.

Yes, I want to hire this conscientious company. :D

OK, it's not nice to make fun of people for a simple human error, but this was funny enough that I hope it adds a chuckle to your day. Besides, since this was spam I don't have to be nice.

[vangogh]

Funny. And what a great sample of their quality writing services. :)

I get similar emails all the time. I often want to reply to ask if the article I get will be as quality as the email they sent. I've been debating lately whether or not to reply to some of the ones promising to get my site ranked higher. I remember a few years back Danny Sullivan, who knows as much about search engines as anyone, carried on a conversation with one of these firms just to get more details about how they would help him. He asked questions that a newbie might ask to see how they'd answer. He eventually posted the email chain and it was pretty funny.

[Paul Elliott]

Thanks for the reminder, Steve. Though this example should be evidence enough, there are those who appear to be good, yet offer results only marginally better than those writing the above email text. We should always get samples of their work first.

Paul

[KristineS]

What's sad is that people see these e-mails and don't realize or understand that they're spam and think $5.50 should be the going rate. As with everything else, it's about education. It's sad that you have to teach people the difference between quality and crap, but you do.

[vangogh]

and don't realize or understand that they're spam and think $5.50 should be the going rate.

Yeah it is sad. It happens in a lot of industries. The key for the legit business is to not lower your prices to meet these kind of expectations. You have to hold to what you know is a fair price and understand anyone who isn't willing to see that isn't going to be a good client.

[KristineS]

Yeah it is sad. It happens in a lot of industries. The key for the legit business is to not lower your prices to meet these kind of expectations. You have to hold to what you know is a fair price and understand anyone who isn't willing to see that isn't going to be a good client.

That is definitely key and it's a hard thing to learn. When you're just starting out, the temptation is to drop prices to bring in business. When you're established, you'll probably get tried of having to educate people as to why your price is legitimate. Holding firm on price is worth it though. No one else will value what you have to offer if you don't place value on it first.

[KHooten]

Right now we can able to produce 50, 500 words high quality articles per day at any topic.


but this was funny enough that I hope it adds a chuckle to your day.

lol Thanks for sharing. It definitely made me chuckle.

[cbscreative]

What's sad is that people see these e-mails and don't realize or understand that they're spam and think $5.50 should be the going rate. As with everything else, it's about education. It's sad that you have to teach people the difference between quality and crap, but you do.


Yeah it is sad. It happens in a lot of industries. The key for the legit business is to not lower your prices to meet these kind of expectations. You have to hold to what you know is a fair price and understand anyone who isn't willing to see that isn't going to be a good client.


That is definitely key and it's a hard thing to learn. When you're just starting out, the temptation is to drop prices to bring in business. When you're established, you'll probably get tried of having to educate people as to why your price is legitimate. Holding firm on price is worth it though. No one else will value what you have to offer if you don't place value on it first.

That last quote says it best!

It actually goes both ways though. I've lost a lot of "opportunities" really fast because such rates influence the price people expect to pay. It's often hard for them to see the value when some providers are insulting the craft with rates like this. Most of these people never come around. They never get to experience the difference because their sticker shock prevents them from venturing into uncomfortable territory. They will go through life convinced that we are ripping people off.

On the other hand, some of the best clients are the ones who tried the cheap approach and woke up. After getting tired of spinning in circles, they decide to put fear aside and take notice that the people who pay our rates keep coming back for more. Are they gluttons for punishment or is their something to this? I often prefer people who have tried both ways. It gives them an appreciation for the difference that the "spoiled" clients don't always have.

To build on the points made above, for those reading this is who are beginning writers, don't give in to the temptation to charge too little. You know you're going to have to put in a lot of effort to deliver quality. How long do you think your motivation will last if you're working for a Raman Noodle rate? Those clients who don't appreciate the value will bail on you once you raise the rates. Cheap work begets more cheap work and it's a tough cycle to break free from.

I'll echo what Kristine said; respect yourself if you want to be respected. And like vangogh indicated, the ones only interested in a cheap price aren't good clients. Not only do they expect something for nothing, because they don't value your service, you'll be like Rodney Dangerfield and "won't get no respect."

And Paul, welcome back.

[vangogh]

Good point about it sometimes working the other way. I think when you hold to your prices it sends a signal to people that you know your value and that can inspire confidence in people. Lots of people will try to bargain with you initially. What do they have to lose?

The danger of emails like this though is that they can change the perception of the true value of your services across the industry. It's the same as the design contests and the $50 logo sites. They give people the perception that's what the price should be. It becomes doubly important to hold to your prices, because it not only affects you, but the entire industry.

[KristineS]

The danger of emails like this though is that they can change the perception of the true value of your services across the industry. It's the same as the design contests and the $50 logo sites. They give people the perception that's what the price should be. It becomes doubly important to hold to your prices, because it not only affects you, but the entire industry.

Have to agree with that Vangogh! That's why educating people is so important. The more people who understand the value of the work we do, the more likely we are to be able to charge fair prices. If enough people hold firm, the low,low price crowd will fade away. That's my hope, anyway.

[billbenson]

Have to agree with that Vangogh! That's why educating people is so important. The more people who understand the value of the work we do, the more likely we are to be able to charge fair prices. If enough people hold firm, the low,low price crowd will fade away. That's my hope, anyway.

Or you change your business model to only look for educated clients??

[KristineS]

Or you change your business model to only look for educated clients??

Yeah, you can do that, but only looking for educated clients means they have to either educate themselves or have been educated by someone else. I guess I tend to view educating people as making a contribution to the industry in general. The more people I can help understand the value of good writing and good writers, the better off all of us are.

[vangogh]

I think targeting potential clients that are already educated about your services and value makes sense. It's an extra challenge trying to convince people who don't see your value what your value us. At the same point you can still spend time helping change perception in people. Maybe it doesn't pay off for you, but it could help someone else int he industry and it can lift the industry overall. If more people do that then everyone in the industry does better.

[cbscreative]

I think educating people to an extent is beneficial to the industry as a whole, but I put strict limits on how much time I'm willing to invest in that. Generally speaking, you're usually dealing with someone who doesn't want education, they just want cheap. In this situation, I don't concern myself with the fact that their lack of business savvy will doom them to struggle wondering why life is so unfair.

For those who are open to education, it's not difficult to illustrate the difference. The problem stems from the simple fact that everything is easy until you are the one doing it. Once I point out that good writing is no less difficult than doing your best at anything else, any reasonable person understands that right away. Doing things "average" is much easier but average doesn't stand out.

The real selling point is that when the writing is for business, there are thousands (perhaps tens or hundreds of thousands) of dollars at stake. Paying $5.50 and getting nothing in return is just a loss of $5.50. Even at Subway, you can at least get a meal for around that price. Suppose you had to invest hundreds or even a few thousand to get well planned writing that gets results. Let's use $3k to illustrate since that will have some shock value to many business owners. If your measurable return is $30k, that's 10x ROI and a real value.

The sticking point is that though this makes sense in principle, you're still left with actually getting the results and the numbers don't mean anything unless that happens. Although paying more doesn't guarantee anything, one thing that ought to be obvious is that the low rate person doesn't have any real motivation to care about quality and results; nor to put in the planning and effort needed to increase the effectiveness of the writing. Without this planning and effort, failure can be pretty much guaranteed though.

[Dan Furman]

I take credit cards, so money is never an issue. Attitude is. And i'm tired of educating people, and really don't look to do it. Because it generally does not work.

Successful people already know the value of good marketing (which writing falls under). People who will soon be out of business think it's all crap, and want the lowest price. I don't want to try and educate the latter.. I'll let "life" do it for me.

Funny, but I find the people who can afford me are that way because they always chose to invest in their businesses.

[vangogh]

Generally speaking, you're usually dealing with someone who doesn't want education, they just want cheap.

Then you're dealing with the wrong people. Those aren't people who will make for clients that are good for your business. Best to identify them as quickly as possible and move on.

I'm not suggesting you force education on people who don't want it, but it's not hard to help your clients better understand what you do. You stay away from industry jargon or even better used it along side non jargon. You explain why you made certain choices. If a client wants you to do something you think is wrong you tell them why you think it's wrong (though you still let them make the choice). All these things will make working with that person easier in the future and doesn't require them sitting in a classroom while you lecture. You're not trying to make your clients experts in what you do, but you can certainly help them make more informed decisions about what you do.

[KristineS]

I agree that there are people on whom you just can't waste time. Some people are always going to want to spend the least amount of money possible and will be satisfied with what they can get for that price. Other people are going to be absolutely convinced that writing or design or whatever doesn't matter. Those people are a waste of time and I'm with Vangogh in staying move on.

I do believe there are some people who are just uneducated though, and those people can be turned into good clients. Some people just don't know what they need or understand how things work and can absorb the information they're told and put it to use in their lives. Those people are worth a little extra time, at least in my opinion. Ideally, every client will be one who understands the value of what's being offered and is willing to pay the requested price, but that doesn't always happen. When it doesn't, the question then becomes is it worth educating the potential client, or should we just say no thanks and move on.

[vangogh]

Some people are always going to want to spend the least amount of money possible and will be satisfied with what they can get for that price. Other people are going to be absolutely convinced that writing or design or whatever doesn't matter.

And I don't think it makes sense to try to convince these people by trying to educate them about your business. It's probably not going to be worth the effort. If someone is only interested in price then let them go find the cheapest price. If someone doesn't believe what you do matters, then why are they contacting you in the first place. Better to identify these people quickly and move on.

I have some clients who want to know more about some aspect of what I do and I try my best to help them understand. I have other clients who aren't interested and just want me to work on their sites. With everyone I try to cut through jargon and explain anything as best as I can when asked. I don't think you can force education on someone, but you can be there to help anyone who wants to learn.

[cbscreative]

Then you're dealing with the wrong people. Those aren't people who will make for clients that are good for your business. Best to identify them as quickly as possible and move on.

That's pretty much what I was getting at. Determine who you're dealing with and why they are asking whatever they're asking, and handle it appropriately.

My statement above was mostly general to help newer writers who deal with price objections. The ideal situation is not to be approached by the wrong type of potential client. I think most or all of us in this thread have achieved that, but we have lurkers and silent members who are just reading and can benefit from our experience. There are plenty of people who appreciate the value (the ones you want to attract) so you don't have to worry about (best to repel) the tire kickers who will only hire you if you're cheap enough.

The principle also applies to situations such as a forum. We don't have much problem here, especially since many of our members and all the staff are success oriented business people. But I've been in online discussions where the participants are asking valid questions and genuinely interested in answers only to have a hopeless case try to grab the spotlight. In a discussion like this, it's not really about educating a potential client even though they could be interested in that. I can still carry on a conversation with the interested party, but I wouldn't make an attempt to reason with someone when I know they're not interested.

[vangogh]

I know. My reply was meant as a general one too and not specifically directed at you.


The ideal situation is not to be approached by the wrong type of potential client.

I completely agree. I think there's a misconception that you need to appeal to everyone and you have to accept every job that comes your way. Neither really leads to success. You can't appeal to everyone so don't try to attract everyone. Some clients/customers will have a net negative on your business and it's in your best interest to identify them quickly and send them on their way. Attempting to teach them why design or copywriting or marketing or anything is important will just waste your time.

[AccountantSalary]

If your business or skill is writing, then your written pieces have to be flawless. Back when I was a tech writer for a computer company, we used to pass around writer resumes that had errors in them, with the mistakes circled in red. We never called those folks in for interviews.

We were a lot more forgiving of programmer resumes -- grammatical errors and typos were easily forgiven.

[Dan Furman]

If your business or skill is writing, then your written pieces have to be flawless. Back when I was a tech writer for a computer company, we used to pass around writer resumes that had errors in them, with the mistakes circled in red. We never called those folks in for interviews.

We were a lot more forgiving of programmer resumes -- grammatical errors and typos were easily forgiven.

I would agree with this to a point. I do make an exception for forum posts and the like. But otherwise, yea, my writing on my own website prettymuch needs to be spot on. And a resume is a no-brainer. Anyone's resume has to be correct.

Although truthfully, what you are talking about is more editing than writing. I send a "read me" file to clients that explains (amongst other things) that sometimes, typos happen. It's impossible to write/rewrite page after page again and again and not have one slip through. Sometimes I've written "it" when I meant "if". It happens.

[TanaB]

I've seen those emails too. Do these people actually get hired anywhere?

One thing for certain though: you get what you pay for.

[vangogh]

It's impossible to write/rewrite page after page again and again and not have one slip through.

So true. The more you read your own words the harder it can be to spot some errors. Your brain starts to read what you meant to write instead of what you actually wrote. It's why you really need a second and third set of eyes to proof your writing. There are pages on my site that I proofed, I had friends proof, a client of mine who's a proofreader has proofed, and yet I still find typos on the page.


Do these people actually get hired anywhere?

I think some people do. That's why you see the emails. If they never led to business the emails would stop. Some people only see the price and don't understand that price and value aren't the same thing. You also have to take into account that not everyone will realize how poor the writing being offered really is.

[KristineS]

Let's face it, there is a lot of poor writing out there today that is very popular. I can name several best selling authors who can't write their way out of a paper bag and yet their books sell really well. So, I definitely think there is some merit to the argument that people aren't being trained to recognize good writing.

[vangogh]

I can name many, many blogs with poor writing too. I still think great writing stands out and always will.

[cbscreative]

For the most part, the good does stand out. I don't think it's so much about training to recognize good writing because there is a basic instinct involved. A well written movie may serve as an example in spite of the fact that poorly written movies do sometimes fare surprisingly well. Most people may not be able to consciously identify the writing as a reason they liked the movie so much, they just instinctively recognize it was better than the poorly written one they didn't like as much, even though they may not have been sure of what was wrong with the one they liked less.

Photography would be an even better example. Very few people (percentage wise) know much about photography. Yet if you put a photograph taken by a skilled photographer next to one taken by a reasonably good amateur, most people will naturally be drawn to the pro's work even though they can't identify the reason it looks so much better to them.

I think even the most untrained person can tell the difference in writing quality, but hiring decisions still get based on price rather then value. Many people just can't get past price. A successful person knows better, but according to the 80% failure rate in small business, the successful are in the minority. Worse yet, the minority seldom catch on to the reasons for their failure and blame someone or something other than themselves.

[MissesBeatriz]

I don't mean to totally change the topic for a moment but these emails remind me of those "African Bank" emails. They are 2 pages long and tell you have 1.2 million dollars in some African bank because someone left you money. Its like who actually falls for this? I hate spam emails! But on this point, I still don't understand how some people don't research! We have all this internet and people fall for these "cheap promotional" emails everyday. But I believe, if you're cheaper, you end paying more in the future. Being cheap leads to poor quality.

[vangogh]

Most people may not be able to consciously identify the writing as a reason they liked the movie so much, they just instinctively recognize it was better than the poorly written one they didn't like as much, even though they may not have been sure of what was wrong with the one they liked less.

I completely agree. In addition to writing and photography you can toss in design and marketing and so many other things. You're right. We may not be able to consciously identify why something is good or bad, because we don't know how its craft works, we don't see the decisions someone made in the things creation, but on an instinctual level we recognize those decisions, that craft, are better or worse than another.

At the same time there's a subjective component to this. I've walked out of a movie thinking it was great, while the person I saw it with though it was ok at best. In talking about the movie it was easy to understand why. The movie might have touched on topics I was more interested in and so naturally I tended to like it more. I've also walked out of movies where I was 100% certain the movie was bad on every possible count and yet the person next to me thought it was good. Some people prefer stories based on character. Others prefer action. There's a lot of subjectivity involved.


hiring decisions still get based on price rather then value. Many people just can't get past price.

Unfortunately this is also true and I think it's tied into the above. Because many people can't consciously identify why something is better, there's a tendency to overlook the hard work it took to make it better. There's a tendency not to understand the difficulty in making something better and so not valuing it appropriately. The subjectivity thing also comes back into it. Sadly though, I think it comes down to price more than anything. Some will always seek out the lowest price no matter what they're buying and regardless of value and quality.

[AlexMc]

Thanks for sharing, great laugh to start the day off. You do raise a very important point about hiring a content writing service - always check out past work and writing samples. You do not want to get involved with companies who put out this kind of work. It could end up being a major set back for your business and others.

[Jsaddington]

Love it, it's just a shame so many people actually pay these guys real money to do such bad work (even though it's only $5 a go!) I had one client come back to me after ditching me for one of the Asian firms because they were so much cheaper, only to come back when his PR dropped 2 points in 2 months.

[vangogh]

People like the promise of lots of reward for no cost or effort. Those of us who get that success takes work have a hard time understanding how people go for these things, but they do. People always have gone for these offers and they likely always will.