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View Full Version : phone book renewal coming up....what to do?



huggytree
05-08-2012, 10:00 PM
the little local phone book that has worked soooo well for me in the past has done horribly for me this year

last year it got me $7,000 and this year the exact same ad is only $800

my ad costs $850

i am not in any of the yellow pages/yellow book phone books...they all do nothing for my business, but that little local one was a gem

last year i had the only 1/2 page ad...i was 1st in the book out of 7 competitors....this year 2 competitors did the 1/2 page also...it bumped me to 3rd and onto a different page.....i assume thats the ONLY reason since its the exact same ad...its a 88% drop in sales....

i want to pickup local business in my home town...im having trouble doing it....i thought of this book to be my 'gem'....a way to slowly break into the market 15+ customers a year....this time its THREE customers

do i go for a full page ad? or do i just drop out

where should i put the $850 into to help me locally?

the majority of my local calls are now off the internet.....im considering hiring someone to maximize my website...i assume it will cost more that the $850

any thoughts?

Steve B
05-10-2012, 03:54 AM
One bad year does not make a trend. I'd stay in your little book and hire someone to maximize your website.

vangogh
05-10-2012, 11:16 AM
I was thinking the same thing. One bad year does not a trend make. I'd stay in another year and see what happens. In the end you lost $50, which isn't a lot of money to take a chance on something that's worked so well.

At the same time I'd suggest the general trend is for people to be using phone books less and searching online more. While I think it still makes sense for you to give the phone book a try, it also makes sense to look more into their online equivalents. For the most part that's going to be local search, which includes the local components of the search engines, the online versions of the different phone books, and sites like Yelp and Angie's List.

I'd still give the phone book another year. Given how well it's worked for you in the past it seems like it's worth the risk to be there another year.

getbizsanity
05-10-2012, 06:25 PM
Hi there,

What business are you in? You don't mention what other marketing tactics you've tried, but marketing works best when you stay in front of your ideal customer on a consistent basis, in multiple ways. It all starts by crafting a compelling message that pinpoints their problems or concerns, how you can help them overcome those problems and what makes you different and better than the competition.

The yellow pages are a bit of a dinosaur, so if you decide to give it one more year, I would like to suggest that you don't put all your eggs in one basket. You'll need to beef up your marketing message and find several other ways to get the word out there as well.

For sure yelp and angies list may be able to help, depending upon what type of business you have. If you have a local business, I'd make sure that you don't just rely upon online marketing and social media. Do you do any local networking? Building relationships with other local business owners who sell non-competing products or services to the same target market is a great way to generate referrals. Re online stuff: optimizing your website for local search is also important. Make sure you've got a keyword optimized presence on google maps, yahoo, bing local, yelp plus any other relevant directories in addition to optimizing your website for geographically targeted keywords.

billbenson
05-10-2012, 09:44 PM
I agree with Steve B as well. One bad year doesn't mean a trend. Over time you are going to need other ways of marketing your business. I don't think that is what happened to you here though.

huggytree
05-13-2012, 10:25 AM
so none of you would INCREASE the size of the Ad?

i am going to show the sales person my stats on how many jobs ive gotten out of their book...im hoping to get a better price for this year because of it...

i may keep my ad in this book for 1 more year, but i will tweak it a bit.....if its a loser 2 years in a row im gone

Harold Mansfield
05-13-2012, 01:18 PM
If you can increase the size of the ad, why wouldn't you? You think you've identified the problem, you're getting lost in the noise. Many times advertising, much like politics, is about who is speaking the loudest.

It seems the ad has served you well. I wouldn't give up on it because of one year.

Steve B
05-14-2012, 06:52 AM
I don't think I'd increase the size. In this particular case, we also know that it's an advertising medium that is getting looked at less and less each year as more people turn to the internet for this information.

Don't expect the advertising guy to give you a break because of your lack of results. If that were the case, they would have lowered their rates every year since the internet became established. They might cut you a break, but only because they don't want to lose you completely, not because you made a logical argument regarding return on investment.

vangogh
05-14-2012, 11:18 AM
I'd probably increase the size of the ad, though it would depend on the current ad and the difference in prices. If you're existing ad is visible enough and stands out as it is, I'm not sure if increasing it will lead to more. On the other hand you won't know unless you give it a try one year.

Were there different ads in general between the last 2 years. Was there someone new advertising last year or someone who'd never used more than a listing who placed an ad last year. Maybe some of the business you'd been getting went to someone else who placed a better ad last year.

KristineS
05-14-2012, 12:44 PM
It really depends on where your market is. We all know markets migrate over time. It could be that your market is no longer using the phone book to search for a plumber. It could be that someone created a better/bigger ad than yours and attracted more attention.

The only thing you know for sure is that you were in a different position this year than you were last year and you saw a drop in sales. Now whether that was because your market started looking elsewhere for plumbing information or because someone else did a bigger/better ad than yours is the question that needs to be answered. One way to answer it is to step up your ad so you're the first thing people see and then see what results you get. Another way, if you have contacts who would tell you this, would be to contact other advertisers who advertised in your category and see what their results were. If you have direct contact with your potential customers you might also ask them how they look for a plumber, but I'm imagining any work that comes through the phone book might be impulse work, so you might not have a lot of communication with those customers.

If it were me, I'd go big for one year and see what sort of results I got. That would help determine if the market had migrated or if someone had just done a better of job of publicizing themselves than I did. If the results at the end of next year are bad, then the answer is probably that the market migrated in which case it's not going to matter how big your ad is.

huggytree
05-14-2012, 05:58 PM
i have an electrician friend who does full page yellow pages ads for $2000 a month

they wanted $4,000 until he showed them documentation on each call he received...he showed them their book didnt work as well and they cut his price in 1/2

each actual customer costs him $200...i find that cost insane

my goal for a phone book is 10%....i want to pay 10% of what i sell....so if i paid $800 for the ad i want to make $8,000 from it

vangogh
05-14-2012, 11:10 PM
How much do think you could reasonably get back from a larger ad? Could you get enough to make the ad worthwhile or at least worth trying?

ReganP
05-15-2012, 11:03 AM
Yes, sticking it out 1 more year to really find out if it's working is a good idea, but it's also very important to think about whether or not your potential customers are using the phone book. My guess is no, but it depends on what your business is. If you renew the phone book ad start focusing on other strategies as well, make sure your site is optimized, make sure you have a Google Places listing, encourage your customers to write reviews on Google and Yelp, and focus on local search optimization and getting your name in the community.

Blessed
05-15-2012, 11:35 AM
I was going to say go bigger and then I stopped and thought about it and I haven't opened a phone book in years... at the same time my sister-in-law who would fit in the same general demographic as me always checks the phone book first. We're both stay-at-home moms, within 3 years of being the same age, who homeschool our kids, cook mostly from scratch, have a garden... the difference is that I am a work-at-home mom too and am definitely more tech savy that she is. However she did get a smart phone last fall and now she pretty much looks everything up there - it's the internet without having to open a laptop - BUT when she's in her kitchen she'll grab the phone book before she picks up her phone.

So.... through that meandering I still say I'd do either the same size or bigger phone book ad and would definitely make sure you have the online ads with Google, the phone book, etc... that make you show up at the top when someone searches for a plumber online.

huggytree
05-15-2012, 09:53 PM
if i spend more and go bigger then i go back to the front of the pack in the book....that solves being 1 page back from everyone else

but it doesnt solve the fact that there are still 3-4 other large ads....the year i did the best i was the only large ad.

ill most likely keep the same size and tweak my ad. a bit

im also going to try to get the salesman to hold last years prices or drop them.....if she says 20% increase ill drop the ad

(they do a 20% increase on me every year...sometimes 30%)

vangogh
05-15-2012, 10:17 PM
the year i did the best i was the only large ad.

That's probably the difference. You could get more calls this year if you are a page ahead of them in the book. I realize you have to give the price consideration, but it would be interesting to know if a page earlier is enough to get the business back. Odds are if you keep things the same as last year you'll see similar results. Unless you can improve the ad enough with however you tweak it.

BNB
05-18-2012, 11:08 AM
10% cost for gaining a new customer is pretty good. Wanting to spend $800 for $8000 in sales would almost sound a little unrealistic.

An advertiser may also want to factor in repeat business, referrals, etc. We often do "break even" advertising because it helps grow the business. Customers come back and they tell friends as well, and this is a metric that can be hard to factor in to your advertising costs which will often just show the value of the first sale.

huggytree
05-18-2012, 08:36 PM
doing anything for break even = out of business

10% is unrealistic...but it shouldnt be

my profits are 10%-35% range....if i give the phone book 10% im giving them 1/2 my profits from these customers....

the current book only got me 3 customers......one job was $75!!!....you can barely count that one....$800 in business for a $800 AD...and 3 customers...

im going back and forth on this one....now im leaning towards getting out........and use the $800 for my website or fliers

billbenson
05-18-2012, 11:59 PM
How well do you know the people with the full sized ads. They may very well be loosing money to. Do you see any signs of them moving to the internet or other marketing methods as yellow page sales ads drop?

Who own's the yellow pages you deal with anyway. If the yellow pages are their only revenue stream, they are just going to hang on until they have no profit and let the business die. In that case, price isn't going to be negotiable IMO. If they are part of a larger organization, perhaps they will hang on a while for other reasons in their business plan?

huggytree
05-20-2012, 08:37 AM
its a small book called the 'home pages'....they do mini books for every city.....

it is possible the other 2 larger advertisers are also doing poorly and will pull their ads too....maybe the phone book salesman can tell me who's renewing and who's not....maybe i can hold out until the last minute to renew the ad.

BNB
05-20-2012, 11:26 AM
doing anything for break even = out of business

10% is unrealistic...but it shouldnt be



Many businesses would be happy breaking even right now. But I think you missed my point. We do a lot of advertising that gives us a "break even" result on the initial sale, but reap the benefits of a long time customer who tells friends and comes back for more products in the future. Being successful in business for the long term requires you to think ahead. Advertising streams will dry up and change, etc. And if you are too reliant on one form of advertising, you are going to play roulette every day with your income.

10% would be great but it's unrealistic for many businesses. If you have any competition, this will drive the cost of advertising up for that sector. Google AdWords are a great example of this. The cost of the AdWords in an average/competitive market will produce damn near break even results. That's because there are just too many people competing and they are stretching the budget as far as possible.

Your goal should be to figure out ways to stretch the customers you are getting even further. Think of creative ways to get referrals, for instance. Maybe that $800 in business for the $800 ad can turn into much more if you offer additional services or provide incentives to generate future business or referrals.

BNB
05-20-2012, 11:28 AM
its a small book called the 'home pages'....they do mini books for every city.....

it is possible the other 2 larger advertisers are also doing poorly and will pull their ads too....maybe the phone book salesman can tell me who's renewing and who's not....maybe i can hold out until the last minute to renew the ad.

Phone book sales persons are generally VERY negotiable. It's like buying a car.

vangogh
05-21-2012, 11:03 AM
We do a lot of advertising that gives us a "break even" result on the initial sale, but reap the benefits of a long time customer who tells friends and comes back for more products in the future.

Good point. It's not always about the direct benefit. The indirect benefit needs to be considered. I'd gladly break even on something if I thought it could continue to provide indirect benefits beyond the initial advertising.

lucas.bowser
05-21-2012, 03:14 PM
10% doesn't seem an unreasonable target based on the industry. Repeat sales are good, but in an industry where the time between sales can be high you need to do better than break-even on the first engagement, otherwise you go broke waiting for the next sale. When I think about how often I engage plumbers for work in my home, I would say it's no more often than once every 5 years on average.

So... I popped out to your website quick, and looking at that, I think there's a lot you can do around basic SEO and social media that in the long run could provide a bigger bang for your buck. Your site only mentions a handful of the names of the cities/towns/suburbs in" Waukesha and Milwaukee counties, as well as parts of Walworth and Jefferson counties" that you serve, and they are mainly on your testimonial page. None of them are in heading tags.

Since you are a small, relationship focused shop I think you could help yourself by starting a blog on your site. I would focus on the a range of projects you work on (from the $1000 facelift to $20K remodel), unusual problems you've helped a customer solve, basic seasonal and annual maintenance, as well as any funny/unusual stories that happen while working on a job (the bat incident comes to mind). Focus on getting the town/city name in the Title, page heading and page address. I would also think that you could start an email list for customers reminding them of annual maintenance or specials, with a place on your website to sign up for it.

My guess is that in the long run you will be better served by some of these items than an advertising book.

kimoonyx
07-01-2012, 03:18 PM
I agree....and pay for a full page, or first position

melanie
08-20-2012, 10:19 AM
So many people are having to make this decision of late - the phone book isn't what it used to be, that's a definite..BUT, is there life left in it yet? I'm not so sure. I think it depends on your target customers. Older people who don't use the Internet do still get out the phone book when searching for a business or a service. However, if your target customers are savvy business people, they may be more likely to do a Google search. If the latter, then your business may benefit more from paid search or hiring an SEO agency to boost your natural rankings. Keep us updated!

vangogh
08-20-2012, 03:38 PM
it depends on your target customers.

That's the key. At some point in the future I doubt we'll have printed phone books. At the moment we do and presumably it's because some people still use them. I don't If you're targeting me, your phone book add or listing will never reach me as I haven't opened one in years. I'm hardly everyone though. I would think some people still reach for the phone book when they need a number.

Steve B
08-21-2012, 07:33 AM
Don't forget there are two pieces to the phone book decision. One is if it will reach your potential customers. The second is the cost of advertising in it. You can't do a cost-benefit analysis without both pieces. The problem I have with the phone book is that they haven't adjusted the cost to reflect the significantly reduced benefit that most businesses get today versus 30 years ago. I still get a few customers from the phone book, but the benefit is now far less than the cost. I'm dropping out of all of them as a result.

vangogh
08-21-2012, 11:41 AM
Good point. You can even add another piece to the decision. Once you have the information to determine if advertising in the phone is worth the cost to be there, you should compare it to other places you could advertise. You might be able to get a positive return on the phone book ad, but could your money have gotten a better return advertising elsewhere?

huggytree
08-21-2012, 09:01 PM
i renewed....they matched last years price....and all of the Ads that were same size and before mine dropped out

so i should be in the same position i was in 2 years ago when a $850 ad brought me $8-10k in business

i kept the ad the exact same

so its a good test to see if the book is worthless now or it was the other large ads before mine

my company name starts with W, so im always LAST everywhere.....when i went into business i didnt think it mattered, but the longer im in business i see all the listings that im last...from this phone book to the builder associations websites....being first does have an advantage

if i get a $850 return this year im out for good


as far as getting repeat customers....its a factor....i agree...but when i got only 3 customers from this book in a year is there really anything from those 3 customers??? odds are 1 will use me again....the other 2 may go years w/o needing a plumber...ill be long forgotten..

yea if i got 100 customers and still broke even they it may be worth it....id get tons of referrals and repeat business.....but 3 is almost worthless

AmandaKess
09-13-2012, 03:40 PM
I'd probably increase the size of the ad, though it would depend on the current ad and the difference in prices. If you're existing ad is visible enough and stands out as it is, I'm not sure if increasing it will lead to more. On the other hand you won't know unless you give it a try one year.

Were there different ads in general between the last 2 years. Was there someone new advertising last year or someone who'd never used more than a listing who placed an ad last year. Maybe some of the business you'd been getting went to someone else who placed a better ad last year.

This is what I was thinking. Maybe you just need to increase the visibility of your ad? Make sure your ad is first as you said it was in the past. I wouldn't abandon this avenue if it has worked in the past, but I would also start thinking about moving forward. Hiring someone to optimize your online persona is probably one of the most valuable things you can do for your business.

Pack-Secure
09-13-2012, 08:08 PM
What is a Phone Book? ;)

vangogh
09-14-2012, 03:45 PM
Maybe you just need to increase the visibility of your ad?

I think with the other ads dropping out huggy's should be more visible. Like he said, it'll be a good test to see whether the recent poor performance was because of the lower visibility or because the phone book may not be the place to be anymore. I'm guessing the phone book still has some value, though I think that value grows less each year. It's so much easier and quicker to hop online and search for someone. The phone book's days are numbered.

huggytree
09-15-2012, 01:42 PM
What is a Phone Book? ;)

the book should be out in a month or so.....im curious how it does in 2013....

AccountantSalary
09-15-2012, 06:41 PM
I assume you've already tried some of the local marketing online venues? Does your phone book company also have an online website where it lists your ad?

vangogh
09-15-2012, 10:39 PM
huggy definitely let us know how it works. Based on what you've told us I think this will be a good test for how useful the phone book is now. My hunch is you'll do better than last year as your competition has dropped its ads, but I'm thinking it won't be as good as it was when you had your best years. It'll be interesting to see whether it's at least worth the price of being in the book.

huggytree
09-20-2012, 07:14 PM
i did just get another job from last years book....the new one is due out in Oct/Nov......i basically doubled this years sales from it in 2 hours this morning...im at least past break even on the 2011 book now...

we all know the answer about the phone book.....this one is just a unique niche market....there's a big 'buy local' feel in my town....its a frugal town too...i need to find those 'big spenders'....this morning the customer went on and on about my Ad...she liked the Holmes on Homes 'do it right' feel...i actually say 'do it right the first time' in my ad...i asked her if i could add more or improve on it.....she said it is perfect and says everything she needs to know....she said it stood out as different when compared to the other ads.......i left feeling all warm and fuzzy

Will Cunningham
09-21-2012, 01:11 AM
Huggytree,

That is good news and hopefully you can take a little of that money and splurge on a full page ad. Sorry, but I remember looking at the ads in the YellowPages for plumbers (and other high competition niches for YP) and thinking that if you don't go big, go home.

I really think the reason was the other two ads pushing yours to the next page, so if you can swing the full page ad then I think you would be back in the saddle. However, I also assume the cost is double for a full page ad, right?

vangogh
09-26-2012, 12:06 AM
I really think the reason was the other two ads pushing yours to the next page

I think that played a big role. It'll be really interesting to see what happens this year without those other ads.

huggytree
09-28-2012, 05:16 PM
a new large phone book came in the mail today....guess what i did with it? ......yep...in the garbage....i cant say i looked in any phone book for over a year now....im throwing them all out

Harold Mansfield
09-28-2012, 05:20 PM
Actually, the pages with a little Windex cleans mirrors and windows quite nicely.

billbenson
09-28-2012, 08:35 PM
Huggy, I'm shocked!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

vangogh
09-29-2012, 12:07 AM
Let's hope your customers don't do the same.

huggytree
09-29-2012, 10:09 PM
the new book im in finally came out today....3/4's the size of last years....its down to 80 pages.....

i am the largest ad, im the first ad and there are about 3 or 4 less plumbers listed overall....i should get almost every call if size matters

typically i see results right away (while people still have the books/before they throw them out)....so if i get a few calls in the next 3 months ill be able to quickly judge

if the results are the same as the 2012 book ill cancel for 2014 and go all out on the internet

webmarketingpro
10-06-2012, 03:40 AM
Personally, I find phone books very useful as lead generators for offering my web marketing services ;-)

And I would certainly recommend adding a stronger online presence - and make sure it includes a sign-up form for a newsletter so you can build a relationship with your subscribers. I'd also offer them an "ethical bribe" - maybe a simple how-to guide on a plumbing topic (how to fix it and when to call in an expert, or something like that).

You may also want to add press releases and other local activities, from networking to speaking, to the mix.

Meanwhile, I'm looking forward to reading about your results with the full-page listing!

huggytree
10-06-2012, 08:54 AM
its been out 1 week now and i got a call yesterday...not a job....not yet....just a call

its a good sign

vangogh
10-11-2012, 02:27 AM
Definitely a good sign. Hopefully a year from now you'll be telling us it was much more than a sign.

fayt
10-16-2012, 07:52 AM
I am glad to hear you got a bunch of business from it. I had placed a 1/8" color ad that cost me $2,600 and it bankrupted me because I got zero business from it. (Old business of mine) tracked by asking customers how they found me.

But to answer your question, the economy was gotten much worse and more people are using google and social media and less with the phone book.

BNB
10-18-2012, 09:19 PM
I would use a different number for the phone book so you can easily track the calls it generates. I think usage of phone books may depend on where you are - you might be an in area more inclined to use them. They are definitely on the way out, but if it generates sales, that's all that matters. I don't count anything out.

huggytree
10-20-2012, 09:16 PM
there's a buy local attitude in my area.

myQRad.com
11-02-2012, 04:19 PM
I think you have to do more research on where your money can be best spent. Some industries do very well with local phone book advertising while other don't.

vangogh
11-05-2012, 06:11 PM
huggy is likely in one of those industries where a local phone book can still work reasonably well. He's a plumber and I would think enough people still look to the phone book when hiring local service providers like plumbers and contractors, etc. I'm sure less people look in the phone book each year compared to looking online, but I would think the phone book can still work for some for a little longer.

huggytree
11-05-2012, 06:27 PM
the problem with most phone books and plumbers is that theres over 100 plumbers listed....

which makes the phone book worthless

when i was in the big books all i got was price shoppers....its a good list for a guy who wants to call 100 plumbers for the best price

the mini book in now in only has 8 plumbers i think
(maybe less)...so its easy to stand out

vangogh
11-06-2012, 02:38 AM
True, but that's not so much a problem with the phone book as it is there's a lot of competition. Have you gotten any more calls or better any jobs from the phone book yet?

KennethT
11-24-2012, 09:16 AM
Hi,

I am interested to find out how this worked for you? Just interested as wanted to compare to what I am seeing. I tend to see this as as growing trend where Little / yellow book and many traditional based media have dwindling numbers. To me I would rather spend the same on Internet marketing, rather than traditional media. Done right I believe (and see to be honest) it to be more effective. The COOL thing is that when you stop paying it STILL remains.

When I look at increasing numbers of smart phones, tablets etc, I can only see one way for these traditional media forms and that is downwards.

Kenneth