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View Full Version : Okay, I admit it... I need a better website...



KerryAll
12-02-2011, 10:26 PM
First of all, I hope this is the right spot to post this, wasn't sure if it should be here, internet marketing, or another.
Anyway, after much deliberation, much advice (a lot of it from you folks on here), and scraping the bottom of my change purse... I admit i need to look at getting a professional website person/company to take the reins.
My big problem is now what? I know I can't really ask how much will it cost. One person said she has a great company doing hers, will cost me about $1500. I'm going to contact them for more information, but I'd like to have an idea of what questions I should ask (besides cost). I can tell them roughly what I want from my site. Should I avoid Flash? Do they typically charge a flat fee (I'm guessing that's what the $1500 is for) and then a monthly maintenance fee? If so, how long a contract will they expect me to sign?

I feel like I'm going for a walk on a busy street, with a fistful of dollars, hoping nobody grabs them all at once!

J from Michigan
12-02-2011, 10:47 PM
Actually, I think you have pretty good content.
(but I'm in no-way a web guru)

I might lose the black background, and put your logo as a banner at the top, linking to your "home-page."

If I were looking for your product, I'd search for "covers" not pouches...
Do you/could you do boats?

KerryAll
12-02-2011, 11:12 PM
I've never said no to a potential customer yet. Typically the material I use is a woven polyethylene, that doesn't breathe. Sometimes that can deter a potential customer. Having said that, I can use other materials as well, but buying smaller amounts, of course, costs more. I have an advantage over bigger companies in that I can do one-off covers where they have to usually set up for a production run, Conversely, if they stock an item a customer wants, they can usually sell one unit cheaper.
Send me a picture and some dimensions, and some details and I'll give you a quote.
I am going to clean up my site as far as too many font colors and some other things for now, while I research the professional route.

vangogh
12-03-2011, 12:01 AM
Lloyd I can understand how you feel. $1500 is a reasonable fee for a site like yours. Some designers might charge more and still be reasonable. Some might charge less, though not much less or else you probably aren't getting quality.

As far as maintenance is concerned ask yourself how often you're going to update the site and what kind of updates you'll need to make. If you're not planning on updating the site much you probably don't need to pay a monthly fee. You might be better off paying for each new set of changes as you need them. At the same time some designers will offer a maintenance fee to cover those occasional changes. They may charge you monthly, but at a lower rate with the understanding that some months you'll need more work and some you won't.

Typically designers will require a deposit upfront before starting the job, often 50%. The remainder will be due upon completing the site. Someone else might ask for 3 payments, one upfront, one in the middle, and one at the end. Of course all designers are different.

Absolutely say no to Flash. If someone recommends Flash to you run as far away from that person as you can. Adobe recently announced that they won't be supporting Flash anymore on mobile devices, which most everything expects is the first step toward them dropping it entirely. Flash was a good solution in the past, but new technologies are quickly developing that are better solutions to the same problems.

It's hard to tell you every possible question you might ask. What I'd suggest is talk to a few designers. Maybe just send an email at first and see what kind of response you get. Ask a few questions of each and learn from their responses more things you should be aware of. If you call, try not to take up too much of their time, but ask a few questions and get a feel for each person. Once you have a sense of a few designers you can get in touch with one or two you think you'd like to work with and spend a little more time asking questions.

Remember that whoever you hire is someone who's going to be working with you on your business. You're probably going to come back to this person more than once so you want to build and honest and trusting relationship with him or her. It's worth spending an extra week or even month taking the time to try to find the right person.

Like I said it's hard to tell you everything you might ask, but do tell us any concerns you have and we can help where we can.

billbenson
12-04-2011, 02:16 PM
When you pick a web designer, remember your site is for marketing your product. The prettiest site doesn't necessarily sell. You want a site that places well in Google and a site that sells your product once the visitor gets there.

Read up a bit on web marketing and gear your questions in that direction. Also, remember that no one can guarantee you good search engine placement or sales. Run from people with promises as well as Flash.

MyITGuy
12-04-2011, 11:25 PM
A few questions I would ask:
How many concepts will be provided (These will be designs presented to you, from which you can move forward from).
Once a concept is chosen, how many design revisions/changes will you be entitled (These are the number of changes you will be entitled too before the designer can charge for the extra work)
Does the designer charge a monthly/annual fee for maintenance, if not, what would their rates be for this type of work? If the designer uses a framework (Joomla, WordPress or etc) then you will want to ensure that this framework and any associated plug-ins are kept up to date...otherwise you will be susceptible to hacking/defacing attempts.
If the designer does use a framework (Joomla/WordPress and etc) will they install plugins to Cache your site (To ensure your host doesn't shut you down for overloading their server), and a plugin to optimize your SEO efforts (These frameworks aren't so great at this out of the box)
Will the design be based on a template, or will it be completely custom work?

Additionally, since you sell products via your website will the designer include any integration into an e-commerce platform (Thinking back to the Shipping/Handling thread you mentioned recently)?

vangogh
12-05-2011, 11:59 AM
How many concepts will be provided? how many design revisions/changes will you be entitled?

If you want to see more concepts and you want to make revisions at any time be prepared to pay more. Some revisions are easy to make, while others can mean restarting the whole project. Depending on where in the process you are you should expect to pay for revisions. With concepts understand that coming up with a new concept is a lot of work. At some point if you want another concept you need to pay for the work needed to create it.

Lloyd imagine I called you to create a custom pouch for me and after you sent it I called again to say it's not quite right. Please make another with these changes. You send it and again I say it's not quite right and ask for another. Then another and another and another. How many pouches should I pay for? Keep in mind I'm not returning any of the pouches I didn't like. That's kind of what it can be like for a designer asked to come up with endless concepts and make endless revisions.

When I design a site for a client I offer one concept. However I offer it very early in the process before a lot of work has been done on it. The client and I will talk through the ideas when it's easy to change those ideas. Later as the project is further underway and revisions are requested they may or may not lead to more charges depending on the nature of the change and the work involved in changing it.

MyITGuy
12-05-2011, 02:10 PM
If you want to see more concepts and you want to make revisions at any time be prepared to pay more. Some revisions are easy to make, while others can mean restarting the whole project. Depending on where in the process you are you should expect to pay for revisions. With concepts understand that coming up with a new concept is a lot of work. At some point if you want another concept you need to pay for the work needed to create it.

Lloyd imagine I called you to create a custom pouch for me and after you sent it I called again to say it's not quite right. Please make another with these changes. You send it and again I say it's not quite right and ask for another. Then another and another and another. How many pouches should I pay for? Keep in mind I'm not returning any of the pouches I didn't like. That's kind of what it can be like for a designer asked to come up with endless concepts and make endless revisions.

When I design a site for a client I offer one concept. However I offer it very early in the process before a lot of work has been done on it. The client and I will talk through the ideas when it's easy to change those ideas. Later as the project is further underway and revisions are requested they may or may not lead to more charges depending on the nature of the change and the work involved in changing it.

Sounds like we have a different meaning of concepts and revisions =D

The way I envision a concept is the designer will provide a high level overview of what the new website can look like in several different forms/colors and etc before any significant time has been spent on slicing/programming and etc... These can either be rough sketches or basic drafts. This allows the client to choose what they want their website to look like and starts to hone in on the color choices the client would prefer (I.E. They may say black and blue, but what shades of these colors would they prefer?).

My understanding of Revisions is after the website has been created/programmed, but certain elements are too big, in the wrong place, or just wasn't communicated in the discussions. For this reason its a good idea to get an understanding of how the revisions will be handled and if there is a limit.

These two items can drive your cost up significantly after the fact if you do not have a clear understanding before hand, which is why I'm suggesting the OP gather this information before hand.

vangogh
12-05-2011, 03:29 PM
The thing is it takes time and work to create those several different layouts, color schemes etc. Clients don't want to see rough drafts, because it's hard for them to envision what the completed site will look like. Not true of everyone of course, but with most people you need to create and send more finished and polished documents of each concept. Add to that as a site gets larger there might be different designs for different sections of the site and the extra work adds up to a lot. All I'm saying is if you want those extra concepts be prepared to pay something for them. You wouldn't necessarily be spending triple the total to have 3 concepts, but you should expect that there is going to be some extra cost.

Revisions come in all sizes. Some are very easy to change and others not so much and a lot of it depends on where you are in the project. If we're early in the process and you don't like a shade of the color green being used, it's generally easy enough to show you how different shades or even a different color might look. That's not even that hard to change after the site's been built if it's been developed well. On the other hand if the site is mostly built and you ask if we can change the 2 column layout to a 3 column layout it probably means redoing 50% or more of the total work.

And yet both are still called revisions.

I completely agree about having a clear understanding beforehand. I'm not suggesting you just give money to a designer and accept whatever comes back. When I work with a client I start by listening to what they want and ask as many questions as I can to clarify what they're looking for. Then begins a dialog about what I'm thinking for the concept along with some images of where I'm going with the design. I expect the client will have some feedback and let me know if changes are needed and then I'll work on making those changes.

I think we're more in agreement here than not. I do think it's important to be working with the client, especially early on in the process so the client is as aware as possible of what the finished product will be and of course I'm willing to make changes throughout the process. The difference might be in the terminology. All revisions are not the same and the same revision can be very different at different times of the process.

The part I'm objecting to is the arbitrary number of concepts or revisions. We can negotiate 3 concepts and you don't like any or we can work together on a single concept and iterate it until you're happy. I prefer the latter method.

Dan Furman
12-05-2011, 11:09 PM
The part I'm objecting to is the arbitrary number of concepts or revisions. We can negotiate 3 concepts and you don't like any or we can work together on a single concept and iterate it until you're happy. I prefer the latter method.

I generally work with my clients the same way in terms of revisions/etc. I also know when a client wants to know how many revisions they get, well, the price just went up. :)

Truthfully, in terms of web design, I think the whole thing depends on budget / type of designer / etc. At the level we are discussing (a $1,500 small biz site), the client has some responsibility to show the designer sites that they like - top nav / side nav / blog style / three "learn more" boxes under the heading / etc. But you can't show the designer a top nav, then decide after he or she makes it that you like side nav better. Yes, colors are typically easy to change, but other things are not.

That said, I know some sites are "developed". I'm sure, for example, if Pepsi wants a new site for a new product, they will get with a high level web developer, maybe even have a face to face in their headquarters, and together, "develop" the site using different concepts/etc (which will ultimately cost 35k).

vangogh
12-06-2011, 11:23 AM
The Pepsi site you describe could even cost upwards of a $100k. They'll likely pay thousands for a concept to be delivered and thousands more for another concept and perhaps even thousands more for a 3rd concept. And if they don't like any of the concepts they'll start the process over with someone else having still spent all those thousands.

Very different from spending $1500 for a completed site. At that price point you're hiring someone who's rate is roughly $50-$100 an hour. So the site is taking a total of 15-30 hours to complete.

Let's take someone in the middle ($75/hr). In order to make their rate that person can spend no more than 20 hours to finish the site. A concept isn't really something that just comes to mind and can be developed in a few minutes. On the level of Pepsi it probably takes longer than the entire $1500 budget we're talking about. At this level let's say it takes an hour to an hour an a half to come up with a new concept and prepare images for the client. 2 additional concepts is probably 3 hours less the designer now has to finish the job.

With revisions some may take only a few minutes, though 10 revisions at 5 minutes each is basically another hour gone. A more significant revision might take 2 hours complete. You can see how even just a few would eat into the project.

I know $1500 sounds like a lot of money, but it's really not a lot for the work involved. It's on the low end where even a little bit of extra work significantly eats into the designer's revenue.

@Dan - can you even offer a 2nd concept without completely rewriting the entire thing? I would think each new concept is close to adding 100% of the time involved to create the original.

Dan Furman
12-06-2011, 04:18 PM
@Dan - can you even offer a 2nd concept without completely rewriting the entire thing? I would think each new concept is close to adding 100% of the time involved to create the original.

No, I don't. I'm very clear in that any revisions do not include any change of direction/etc. I also do not do "drafts" (I never call anything a draft, because that implies "not done" amd will be changed whether it needs it or not.)

I also totally steer away from clients that want to "develop" something, but don't have the budget for it. Let them hire a Craigslist writer for $10 an hour and develop something.

This sounds almost harsh, but 99% of good clients have no problem with it. But I simply don't have the time for the guy that spends $200 on a salesletter only to say "my wife doesn't like it - she says she would never contact me from that letter". If that's the case, then the wife should probably be writing the letter.

But I DO have time for the guy that says "let's write a letter on this angle and test it, and if it doesn't work, let's tweak and write another".

vangogh
12-07-2011, 10:50 AM
I hear you. I thought that's how you worked and while we're not in the same business, I think we've had similar experience with the people who contact us.

Taking this back to Lloyd's question the price points we're talking about are already pretty good and really on the low side. At that price point you can't really bargain for more without it becoming unfair to the service provider. That's all I was trying to say before and what I think Dan is also saying. Either of us would be happy to provide different concepts, but we expect to be paid for the extra work involved.

At the same time we can both deliver something you'll be happy with, without the need for additional concepts. We've learned how in part to keep costs down.

TimPiazza
12-16-2011, 12:42 AM
Lloyd, I'm going to take a different tack on this. What you don't want is someone to just redesign your site with the idea of moving your content around and putting things into Wordpress with some fancy menus and a slideshow. Okay, you do want fancy menus and a slideshow, but...

Here's what I would do. Simplify the home page and the purchase process. Don't make people hunt for that "buy our pouches" page. In fact, every path on your site should take your visitor by the hand, lead them to that page, and encourage them to click the "buy now" button with confidence that their life will be better once they receive their new Kerry Pouch. Make it super-easy for someone to understand the need, the versatility, and the variety, but don't overwhelm them with all of the choices and specs until they're already convinced that they want one because it solves THEIR problem.

Combine that marketing approach with a clean and uncluttered design, with a limited number of choices or places to click, and an obvious path to the shopping cart, and you'll be able to pay twice what you were quoted for your site and be in the black in no time with the increased conversions you'll get just from your existing traffic.

Tim

vangogh
12-19-2011, 03:31 PM
I completely agree Tim. Design isn't just about making things pretty. The pretty is the icing on top. More important is making the site easy for people to find what they're looking for and when the time is right make it easy for them to get into and then through the shopping cart process.

It's why I generally don't advocate skimping on the expense of a website. Done right you have a site that can quickly pay for the cost of having it designed. Done wrong and you have a site that looks nice, but doesn't necessarily help your business.

socialme82
08-07-2012, 06:12 PM
Good accessibility in the design and user engaging content is key to any great site. Some site concepts are so expensive to develop that even though they are great ideas it only makes sense for the developers to dedicate themselves tirelessly toward making the custom work unless you want to take a huge gamble. Well actually either way it is either a money gamble or a time gamble. Obviously Mark Zuckerberg made a pretty darned good choice in his gamble, just how many people try to one MZ?

vangogh
08-07-2012, 07:23 PM
I think the success of any site has to start with its content and by content I don't literally mean written words. Content can be articles or video or audio. It could be your products or a game of some kind. It's the stuff people want to consume.

Design is the next layer up from content and it does quite a few things from organizing your content and helping people find it to directing people through the site to setting the atmosphere. Most people think design is only about how pretty things look, but that's only one aspect of design. I'd agree that accessibility (or usability) is the most important part of design to get right, though it's hardly the only one. Every layer of design helps the site in a different way. Even all that prettying up, which can sometimes be the difference in someone sticking around on your site long enough to make a purchase or leaving right away.