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View Full Version : is a concealed permit and a new gun a business expense



huggytree
11-01-2011, 12:02 PM
the WI concealed permit application process just opened up today

my permit is in the mail. Almost every contractor that i know(if not all) will be applying also. Since working in bad neighborhoods is one of my main reasons for it i wrote the check out from my business account. I may be purchasing a new more concealable gun in the near future and am considering it a work tool.

of course my accountant will be the deciding factor....

any opinions? i feel its legit, but do see where i may only get a partial deduction since the permit/gun wont be work work only

billbenson
11-01-2011, 02:03 PM
If you are going to carry a weapon, I would want to be very well trained in its use. I would bet most aren't. In Florida there are classes that go from the very basic to firing at pop up targets in a police type of raid. I think they use paint guns as part of the training although I haven't investigated it.

Consider it like building reactions learning a sport. You do practice runs over and over again so when you are in a real game your body reacts, you don't think. It takes repetition over and over again over long periods of time.

It would be hell to shoot a gun only because you reacted wrong and shoot someone innocent.

huggytree
11-01-2011, 02:21 PM
ive been around guns for 20 years...i have my hunters safety license

I do plan on taking some tactical classes in the future though.

Most people arent very well trained, but you dont hear about CCL people shooting themselves in the foot every day

most normal people dont shoot innocent people my mistake too often and there are probably a million CCL people out there.

i used to target shoot weekly with hand guns...still do with a shotgun

im just looking for the business deduction

mailorder
11-01-2011, 06:16 PM
How long till the local news paper decides to print a list of concealed permit holders. But might be like VA where they post there name, phone number, and address. It was great for the cops and for the people that worked in the jails. That information is open to the public in most states.

billbenson
11-01-2011, 09:44 PM
My point is not that you are skilled in the use of guns. I do doubt that you are skilled in the safe use of them. But using weapons in a confrontational environment with adrenalin running is a different thing. You want to react like an athlete without thinking about it. You don't practice that in hunting or target shooting.

Steve B
11-02-2011, 02:35 AM
I seriously doubt it would be considered a business expense. I would think that it would only qualify for professions where carrying a weapon is actually required.

MostHeather
11-02-2011, 09:48 AM
I could see it maybe if you were a bounty hunter or something. I wasn't aware that being a general contractor was a dangerous business.. Check with your accountant and see what he has to say..

jamesray50
11-02-2011, 01:36 PM
I seriously doubt that you could get off with writing it off as a business expense just because you work in a bad neighborhood. You are not working in an occupation that requires you to carry a gun. You can double check with your accountant, but I believe I am correct.

Evan
11-03-2011, 11:00 PM
I find it hard to find a need to justify it as a business expense. It's not an ordinary and necessary business expense for someone in your field, and you're doing it for your personal benefit. If something went bad, there is a reason we have police departments.

Additionally, licenses are issued to individuals. I don't think you want to associate the business, as you are perhaps opening you and it to lots of liability. Now if you shoot me and I know the gun is owned by your business, in addition to suing you, I can probably sue your business too. So much for "limited" liability!

jamesray50
11-04-2011, 10:47 AM
And if I was doing your bookkeeping for you, I would record the expense as an owner's draw and not a business expense. It would show up on your balance sheet under the equity section and not on your Profit & Loss.

huggytree
11-04-2011, 10:35 PM
I seriously doubt it would be considered a business expense. I would think that it would only qualify for professions where carrying a weapon is actually required.

you may be right Steve, but i do think its a grey area.......in the core of Milwaukee 2-4 people are shot every day and its very typical to hear gun shots during the day in those neighborhoods.....working there does require a gun

most contractors do and always have carried guns when working there...i wouldnt be surprised if most people walking about in those neighborhoods are carrying guns...im just glad i can do it legally now

WI DOJ website had 800,000 hits the first day they posted the application for concealed carry...looks like im not the only one

i bought my new concealable gun today and used my companies credit card...we will see if my accountant kicks it into my 'owner draw' or leaves it under 'work tools'....my accountant is very cautious, so we will see

huggytree
11-04-2011, 10:42 PM
My point is not that you are skilled in the use of guns. I do doubt that you are skilled in the safe use of them. But using weapons in a confrontational environment with adrenalin running is a different thing. You want to react like an athlete without thinking about it. You don't practice that in hunting or target shooting.

no one would be qualified under your definition...many police never practice with their guns...my friend became a cop and the gun they gave her(used) still had the break in grease in it....also was full of lint...the cop who had it before her never shot it

i will practice a few draws...i feel you can see most situations coming...who's quicker to the draw probably wont be an issue for 99% of situations......no one pulls a gun w/o adrenalin ...ive been there with dear hunting...im never as accurate as when i practice because of it...

maybe next year i will go to texas with a few buddies for tactical training....its a few thousand each + 1000's of rounds of ammo....its something i always wanted to do.....most of that is with assault rifles though.....i dont think its legal in WI to walk down the street yet with a AK

billbenson
11-06-2011, 01:11 AM
no one would be qualified under your definition...many police never practice with their guns...my friend became a cop and the gun they gave her(used) still had the break in grease in it....also was full of lint...the cop who had it before her never shot it

i will practice a few draws...i feel you can see most situations coming...who's quicker to the draw probably wont be an issue for 99% of situations......no one pulls a gun w/o adrenalin ...ive been there with dear hunting...im never as accurate as when i practice because of it...

maybe next year i will go to texas with a few buddies for tactical training....its a few thousand each + 1000's of rounds of ammo....its something i always wanted to do.....most of that is with assault rifles though.....i dont think its legal in WI to walk down the street yet with a AK

Think about it. Where would you use a gun. One case I read recently, a guy was leaving a restaurant with his date. She went to her car and he went to his. Someone tried to kidnap her and he had a gun in his car and shot the kidnaper. Ok. that makes sense. The kidnaper was arrested and dead (I think).

A car load of thugs force you off the road, you may have reason to brandish a gun.

You are walking in front of your job site with tools in your hand and some thug sticks a knife to your throat or a gun to your head it will do you no good whatsoever. If they know how to use their weapon they will gut you or shoot you before your gun will do you any good.

In answer to your question, yes there are people that are very good with weapons in the way I described. I know someone who has practiced a knife fighting martial art for 40 years. There are people that have years of practice in close combat with guns for years. And they aren't necessarily military. As you stated, even most cops don't really know how to use a weapon in that environment. But yes there are people out there that have that proficiency.

I'd keep a gun in my car or even in a tool box, but IMO you shouldn't carry one. Just my opinion.

On another note, what are you looking at for a concealable weapon?

huggytree
11-06-2011, 09:12 AM
I decided on a Glock 27 .40

i was originally considering a Kahr 9mm because of size and that it had an external manual safety

all the 'mini' guns have HORRIBLE triggers.....they are specifically designed for carry and they want to make 'extra' sure you intend to fire them....the problem is no one would be accurate because of the 4x longer and 2x harder trigger pull....

im own several Glocks and am a big fan...so i got their smallest sub compact...its larger than the mini guns, but smaller than the ones i own...i am planning on carrying outside my pants w/ a tee shirt covering it...i refuse to carry in condition 1 inside my pants w/o a manual safety....the outline of the gun will show more with it on my belt, but like a friend of mine tells me 'thats a good thing, you want them to see you have a gun'

your case against carry is emotional, not logical.....is someone with a Scream mask suddenly going to appear behind me with a knife at my throat???

odds are 99.999999999% that my gun will never be drawn where i live and were i go with my family....

i rarely work in bad neighborhoods....i never work where its the worst, but around the worst area's....the scenario there is most likely catching someone stealing my tools . WI is going to be a 'Castle Law' state in a few days(awaiting the gov. signature)...so if i do catch them INSIDE my van i can kill them on the spot.....i have no issue Killing someone who's going to hurt me or my family, but im not sure i want to over a sawsall...but it will soon be my right to do so(and i like having that right)

I think most situations where you need a gun will not be quick reaction situations....i think you will see it coming

keeping it in your glove box or car isnt going to help you very much....i go hiking with the family in the woods often...we run into armed hunters all the time...now ill be armed.......i worry on vacations while driving rental cars that my family is 'marked' by the rental car....now my wife has the Utah Permit and she can carry in 25 states...i could go on and on about my thoughts....in the end i will carry because I CAN and feel its a right i should always have had....

for a man the odds of needing a gun must be extremely rare, but for a woman i see it as necessary ...i believe i heard 40% of women (or more) are the victim of a violent crime.....so i feel its foolish for a women not to...if my wife likes the Glock i already found some aftermarket 'pink' parts to add to a Glock for her....ill buy her one and customize it for Christmas.....nothing like celebrating the birth of Jesus by giving your love one a pink accented gun...(2) Christmas's ago my brothers and i bought my Dad a WW II pistol he always wanted...he still talks about it as his best gift ever......i guess i have a redneck family

Patrysha
11-06-2011, 02:04 PM
I don't understand hand guns at all. I understand hunting guns. I've shot hunting rifles back in the dark ages. Yummy foods. I'm all for that. But handguns? It's just so foreign. To me it says I'm willing and able to hunt humans and I'm okay with that.

billbenson
11-06-2011, 03:44 PM
From a self defense standpoint there are plenty of examples of people shooting someone who entered there home intending harm. There are also plenty of examples of someone having the gun turned on them by the intruder, shooting themselves by accident etc. That's really a training issue. I actually know someone who shot a would be rapist with his own gun.

IMO the reason to be good with a gun (or knife) in close range situations is because if someone is going to attack you, there is a good chance they will be armed and you won't. I practice a couple of martial arts. One happens to be knife fighting. I don't carry a knife though. I actually do it because its fun. So is killing tin cans with a pistol. The bottom line though is that if you are in a situation where another person has a weapon, whether you have one or not, the odds are really good you will end up injured or dead even if you are very good with the weapon.

I certainly don't agree with Huggy's example of shooting someone in his truck stealing a sawsall. Cops don't go around shooting people for trespassing or petty theft. I tend to doubt Huggy would actually do that though. I actually think that except in very rare situations, for a citizen to carry a weapon on their person will create problems rather than give them protection.


To me it says I'm willing and able to hunt humans and I'm okay with that.
In answer to that question, there are arguments for having them for personal protection.

Evan
11-06-2011, 07:13 PM
This topic seems to have developed into more of a political matter than an accounting question. I will reiterate that I do not believe the expense is going to be deductible on your business return regardless of whether you charged it to a business credit card or not. I will try to support this with a very different example.

If you are driving your business truck and get pulled over for speeding, the ticket is the obligation of the driver and not the business as the right to drive isn't granted to businesses, it's granted to individuals. If you lose your right to drive (e.g. lost your license, etc.), you cannot drive on behalf of the business as corporations and business entities aren't granted the right to drive.

It seems quite silly to deduct this as a corporate expense because now if you injure or kill an individual, you are allowing your corporation to have unlimited liability in addition to you individually. If you maintained it separately, you could reiterate that the business had nothing to do with the gun and not lose your business if something goes wrong.

Nobody ever plans for these things to happen, but if it does -- I truly feel you will regret the few dollars of tax savings to the unlimited liability you're potentially exposing your business too.

huggytree
11-07-2011, 07:51 PM
no i probably wont shoot someone for taking my sawsall...but legally i believe i can if they are inside my truck....anyone in side your house or truck that doesnt belong is now a target in WI

and yes handguns are for killing people....all guns are for killing....animals or people

i have no issues with anyone who doesnt understand and chooses not to own a gun....but i do understand and do choose to own a gun and now carry one.....i know if i make any mistake i go to jail....so ill be real sure that doesnt happen and odds are almost 0 that i will ever have to worry anyways....

Patrysha there are people in this world who are willing to kill you for your shoes.....if they see you running they can push you into the bushes and rape you...most people are good, but do a search for child molesters in your neighborhood and see how many horrible people you live near....in Milwaukee people are shot every night...where i live we have 1 murder every 10 years....most people dont lock their doors.....but many people are trapped in bad neighborhoods....or like me -once in a while work in bad neighborhoods...

is there something wrong with killing a person who intends to do harm to you or your family?

Patrysha
11-07-2011, 09:05 PM
It's not wrong but it crosses a line for me personally to have a handgun for that purpose. I can't quite articulate why I'd be okay with shooting a rifle or using a knife or a dog or a baseball bat...but that's the disconnect.

I have never been in a neighbourhood as bad as what you describe. Maybe my opinions would shift if I had to deal with that sort of thing, but I don't.

As for rapists in the bushes...you reduce the risks of attack more by choosing to run with a group rather than alone, choosing more populated paths to run on, by being aware of your surroundings and potential escape routes and by adapting a confident look and stride and so on. I don't see how a gun would be any protection in that sort of situation if the attacker already has you off balance and down before you realize they are there. And where would you hide a gun in running gear?

The number of registered sex offenders in the area has no bearing on the real risks to children in any case. Most perpetrators are never charged and never end up on any list despite a string of victims cultivated throughout their lives. The best defense against predators in my opinion is arming yourself and your children with knowledge and awareness - a gun might be good for revenge but does nothing for protection or prevention.

huggytree
11-08-2011, 07:26 PM
i just mentioned the sex offenders to prove a point about % of bad guys out there....not to say shoot them or revenge....my wife did a search and our city looked like a christmas tree...they are everywhere on every block

a jogger could carry in a fanny pack easily....the Texas Gov. jogs with a gun

i see women jogging by themselves in the woods all the time...they continually pass us on trails when me and the family go hiking....i assume they are packing or stupid......many have head phones on too........if you are aware of your surroundings you may be able to stop someone pushing you into the bushes, but if your unaware i agree w/ you that you have no chance at all.

i suggest you take a friend and go to a gun range and rent a hand gun...its an interesting experience....ive taken many non-shooting girlfriends over the years when i was younger...my wife was the only one who wasnt scared and actually prefers large caliber weapons....she says the small calibers arent fun to shoot....

Evan
11-08-2011, 10:24 PM
I think the question has been answered satisfactorily, with the extra comments here delving into a much larger issue that could perhaps be discussed elsewhere.