Radio Radio

[Steve B]

The title of this was for any Elvis Costello fans out there.

Actually, I'm curious if anyone has experience advertising on radio. After 7 years of business, that's the only thing I haven't tried yet. I always figured there were so many stations and it was so easy to change the station to avoid the commercials. Anyway, beginning next week, I'm finally trying it for my pet food delivery business. I'd attach the .wav file and let you hear it if I knew how.

Edit: The file is now online - Radio spot (http://www.kibblekart.com/media/kibble-kart-radio-spot.mp3)

[vangogh]

I haven't, but I think Patrysha has a lot of experience working with radio. Hopefully she'll see this post.

Let me know when you're ready to add the finished commercial to the site and then we can link to it from here. I tried attaching it to the thread, but the forum wouldn't accept the file type. You already know I thought it was well done. We'll see what others think when it's ready.

[ParaTed2k]

I haven't personally used it, but I have a few friends who have. All of them raved about the return in the investment.

The upside... more people are listening to the radio at any given time than any other traditional media. You can't take tv everywhere, but you can take radio. That means more access... and more participation.

The downside, it costs a lot. Each of my friends put over $10,000 into the radio campaigns. On the other hand, tv costs more than that just for the spots themselves.

They chose AM talk radio also, so I can't say anything about success with music or FM.

They chose AM talk radio because people actively listen to talk radio, where music radio is often just background noise. Also, you don't have the problem of people changing the station when the commercials come on. You have the host teasing the next segment, helping your spots get heard by a higher percentage of listeners.

I hope that helps.

[Steve B]

That's a good point on the talk radio versus music stations. My first ad will be running on a Christian FM station. There are people around here that won't change the station for fear they might hear a curse word or something else they find objectionable on the other stations - so I figure they will have to listen to the commercials. I'll see how it does and expand to other stations if it works. I'm going to be on 5 times a day, 5 days a week, for 90 days. It's a 60 second spot that sounded pretty good to me. We'll see, every other type of advertising seems to either break even or lose money (the only exception is Adwords - which always seems to have a positive return).

[huggytree]

what id worry about is the % of your audience that is in the market for your product...if it was a product that 100% of people need id think it would show some sort of result, but seeing you sell 'specialty' pet food that percent has to be below 10%...maybe 1%

are you advertising on a pet talk show? now that hits your market!

60 seconds can be a long time, but is it long enough to explain why your product is better than science diet and other 'specialty' foods? i would gear it towards the type of customer who is already buying specialty pet food..explain why yours is better than science diet.....i doubt you'll change any minds of people who buy from Walmart anyways.....but i do think you could change minds of science diet owners

im not knocking your plan at all...im curious too....ive been hearing radio ads for various contractors i know lately on the radio..you can tell they didnt hire pros to help them write/develop their commercial....they were ALL very monotone and blah....you need something unique to make your ad memorable...the ads i heard had horrible jingles and one had a voice talking over some background music..you couldnt even hear what he was saying....blah,blah,blah was all i heard............and just so you know they only lasted 2 weeks each...i assume they didnt work...otherwise they'd all still be there

id love to hear the commercial

make it sound different than ANYTHING else you hear or use original comedy....something people will talk about....if its just blah,blah,blah with a blah jingle it wont get anyones attention and they will block you out

i wish you luck and im excited to hear how well it worked

[Steve B]

That's good insight HT. Actually, even at 1% the numbers can still work very well. The station has 50,000 listeners. 1% of that equals 500 people that would be receptive to "specialty" pet foods. If I could get 5% of the 500 to give us a phone call as a result of the ad and if only HALF of those that called signed up for our food - I would make money on the spot.

My calculation is closer to 2,000 people will be the type willing to buy the high quality pet food. 40% of the 50,000 will own either a dog or a cat equalling 20,000 people. Of those 20,000, I predict about only 10% will be receptive to the higher quality foods (2,000 people). If only 1 or 2% of the 2,000 gives us a call as a result of the ad (and half of them purchase) - we'll still make money. I need 10 new customers to pay for the spot.

The spot probably isn't nearly as memorable as you might hope for - but it's pretty informative about the service. I don't focus much on why the food is better - instead I mostly focus on the service (delivery) aspect of the food. I do mention the name brands we carry. The people that already feed a really good pet food will definitely recognize these names (thus targeting your 1%).

If I can find your e-mail address, I'll email the .wav file to you so you can listen.

[Dan Furman]

The big thing about radio is it must be consistently repetative. Over and over and over again.

Also, your expectations have to be different, especially in the short term. Save for who's playing at the club tonight, nobody listens to radio ads and reacts (there's no "I need to call them" after a listen.) It's the repetition / name recognition that makes it work. You won't be able to measure it in percentages (don't even try - the "mention this ad for %5 off" doesn't work.)

[Patrysha]

I've worked in radio :-)

It looks like you've purchased a run of schedule approach which is a pretty standard sell. Personally, I prefer a tighter spacing within a specific time slot, but the real challenge is creating a spot that generates results...a good portion of the airwaves are dominated by ineffective commercials. Dan O Day and wizard of ads are good sources for radio tips.

I like 60's - most advertisers tend to go for 30s spots, but I like the longer ones...more room for entertainment and impact.

[huggytree]

Steve sent me a copy of the Ad. and overall i liked it...probably as good or better than i could do...it was very professional

its 2 women talking to each other about pet food and delivery

i like how you have figured everything out as far as # of listening audience and percentages you hope will be receptive......things never go as well as you think, but i hope you get 10 new customers

id produce a 2nd Ad. which focuses on the foods quality...explaining why your better than science diet.....test them both

my sales doubled when i stopped being positive about everything and started being negative on my competitions product..i dont call out the competitors by name, but explain why most of my competitors use junk....i taught them how to tell the difference....you may need to educate your customer(not sure if 60 seconds will ever be enough time though)


good luck!

[orion_joel]

Spunds like a great way to go with the advertising. For the past two years in Australia there has been a big push on Radio advertising.

While it might be so easy to change the channel so many people don't bother. For example anyone that has the radio on in a workplace (eg car workshop, retail store, ect) wont change the station just because a bunch of ads come on. The radio is often to far away form where they are working and often is an older one that it may have taken them some time to get the aerial in just the right spot so the station is clear. I think fewer people then you might think would change the channel just because the ads come on. More likely people sitting in their car with the radio controls at their finger tips on the steering wheel.

[Steve B]

Good point Joel - I guess since driving is the only time I listen to the radio, that was the way I was thinking.

Yes Patrysha, I did buy a standard run of time like you described. I think if I ever go on a more popular (expensive) station, I'll do it in a more specific time slot. The general schedule that I bought came to less than $3 per spot - so I was O.K. having it run 5 times a day, 5 days a week. They actually will run it quite a bit more than 5 times a day because they will run it late night and on weekends when they want to fill space and they don't charge for those spots.

I can't imagine making the spot only 30 seconds. I guess if I was selling something that people already understood it would be O.K., but I've got the only company that delivers pet food in our area so it needed 60 seconds in my opinion.

It should start this week. I'll try not to judge the results for a month or so (it runs for 3 months).

[Patrysha]

Yeah, ROS generally does come with quite a few freebie spots in the "D" time slots...the likelihood of any freebies in the "A" & "B" slots is minimal, but you'll get your paid slots into A&B times at least once a day. The rates you got are outstanding for a 50,000 reach, so way to go on the negotiations there!

[MostHeather]

Good luck on your campaign. If you can hit the right spots and the right people it could be quite a boom for business..

[vangogh]

I can't imagine making the spot only 30 seconds.

Keep in mind that much of the reason for the spots is simply to get people to remember your brand. Like Dan said people aren't going to hear the commercial and rush to the phone to call. It's more that when the day comes where they want to have pet food delivered and they're wondering who to call you want them to think of you first.

With that in mind you don't need to explain everything about your business in every spot. You could cut our a few things to create a 30 second spot and mix those with the 60 second spots. People having heard the longer version will fill in the missing parts anyway, but if less time means the spot costs less…

The key is just getting people to remember your name and how to reach you when the time comes.

[Patrysha]

You could cut our a few things to create a 30 second spot and mix those with the 60 second spots. People having heard the longer version will fill in the missing parts anyway, but if less time means the spot costs less…



Actually 30s are more expensive...which is why sales teams tend to like them, you make more off of 2-30's than for 1-60...

[vangogh]

I was thinking the 60 second spot could just be cut and thought 1 30 second spot would cost less than 1 60 second spot so some of the 60's could be replaced with 30's. If that's more expensive then it doesn't make sense though. That would be silly to spend more to get less back. :)

[Steve B]

It's weird - one station I spoke to charged the same for a 30 as it did a 60. I'm pretty sure the one I went with would have charged the same thing also. I figured I might as well take the extra time to get my points across.

I do think in the future, assuming I stick with the radio for a while, I might want to mix it up between the 30's and the 60's. But first, I need them to at least understand the concept of what we're doing. Then, I can work on the name recognition and/or the comparison of our food versus other foods.

Patrysha - since you're a radio person, I'll try to e-mail you the .wav file so you can comment. I hope that's O.K.

[Patrysha]

Where we are a 60 is more expensive than a 30,but not twice as much...so the 60's are a better deal...but many people think that is too long...180 words is not too long IMO.

Send it along Steve, but don't be looking for an immediate response...working ungodly hours at the restaurant with one prep cook and two line cooks out when we were already working on expanding staff...so not on the computer for more than an hour a day lately...

[vangogh]

Weird they would charge the same for both spots. That doesn't seem like the best practice for the station since they're giving away an extra 30 seconds of time they could sell. I think what Patrysha has seen make sense. You sell both at different rates, but give a discount for buying more time.

[Patrysha]

Yeah, I have never seen anyone pay the rack rate on radio. It's one of the things that drove me a bit nuts, because the numbers on the official rate sheet were just the starting point.

[Steve B]

For anyone interested in hearing it - Vangogh has put a link at the bottom of the first post in this thread.

[vangogh]

Yep, sorry. I should have mentioned it in a post too since most people following along with the thread probably aren't looking at the first post anymore.

Here's the Radio spot (http://www.kibblekart.com/media/kibble-kart-radio-spot.mp3) again so you don't have to click back.

[Steve B]

I don't want to jinx anything, but we got our first customer from the ad after two days of being on the air. Hopefully, this won't be the last!

[vangogh]

Nice. I already mentioned in email that I think the commercial is done well. It doesn't surprise me you've already gained a customer from it.

[Patrysha]

That is an excellent commercial. The only thing I would suggest is to split the end into two commercials...each with a single call to action instead of both the phone number and the website. I'd also test using a sound effect in the beginning (maybe a dog bark and a child's giggle) to set the stage for the conversation...to take advantage of the theatre of the mind experience.

[vangogh]

That's a good idea. It hadn't occurred to me to test the commercial, but I see with your suggestion what a good approach it can be. Being able to tell whether it drives more traffic to the phone or the web makes a lot of sense. Would you also mention some kind of coupon code? I'm thinking some people who hear the website version would visit the site, grab the phone number and call anyway. What would you use to make the tracking more accurate?

[Steve B]

I really like both of those ideas - The dog bark and giggle and splitting the end.

They said they are very willing to make changes - and both of those would sure be simple enough. I'm on for 3 months - so I could change it in a couple weeks. If I give them a referral - they will extend my air time considerably. They already agreed that I can refer my second business and it would count.

Good input and thanks for the compliment. We had two versions written by professionals and didn't really care for them. Then my wife and I wrote that version on our own.

[Patrysha]

I think coupon codes on radio are ineffective...."mention this ad" offers seldom get utilized. Better ways to track would be to say "Call and ask for Wanda" Wanda being someone who doesn't exist...or call and ask about our "Codeword" special available until such and such a date...

My personal fave tracking method is a custom URL landing page for different ad placements. I don't like backslash URLs for tracking via audio...to many variables to prevent a succesul connection (mishearing, misremembering, mistyping...)

Just to clarify though the separate endings is not so much to pit one method over the other but rather to limit the listener to one single call of action. Studies show that providing more than one choice in an ad inhibits any response. Also...it helps should one method of contact become unwieldy (ie some companies find phone inquires are more costly and interrupting, so they focus ads on in store or web visits instead...

I do disagree with an easier statement that radio can't be used to drive sales...that it is all about image and branding. That is a lie (in my opinion) told by salespeople who have no clue about direct repose marketing or how to package a deal that can deliver results. Branding and Imaging campaigns are the invention of ad agencies that are out to win creative awards and accolades...not deliver tangible results...not to say branding and imaging don't work...but why waste time and money if there's a more direct route to measurable results...

[Patrysha]

I am not surprised that your version was more effective than the "pros"...at a small station there are often not any dedicated writers to work on spots...and even the ones that do the focus is often on making the client like the commercial and not on what is going to work to get the client customers now...

I'm very picky...or I was when I worked at the radio station (and I still am when I have clients that use radio)...and often rewrote or just plain wrote spots for clients because I couldn't stand the writer's work. (Which was a huge problem for the station manager and one of themany reasons I'm no longer in radio)

[vangogh]

Makes sense about the different methods for tracking the call. The coupon idea was all I could think of at the moment. I see the custom URLs used a lot on different tv commercials.

I'm not sure if I was the one who mentioned branding over direct sales or not. My thought is people generally aren't hearing a single radio spot and rushing out to call, but rather hearing the spot over time can get them to call. Same thing with commercials on tv. Unless you happen to be thinking about whatever it is the commercial is pitching it's unlikely you're jumping off the couch to call. Maybe it happens, but I wouldn't think it happens often. Of course it's not my business, so maybe I'm thinking more about myself than the general public.


the separate endings is not so much to pit one method over the other but rather to limit the listener to one single call of action.

It's similar on websites. That's why your typical landing page selling a product has 2 options, buy or leave.

[huggytree]

congrats on the new customer....its a very good sign

also good job on writing it yourself...you know your product best....i cant knock it

if you get 15 customers in 30 days maybe ill try it

[huggytree]

a week later...how many more calls Steve?

[Steve B]

Still just the one! I always get my hopes up when I see some early success. It's on for 10 more weeks and it may take some time for it to sink in.

I'm going to advertise in the newspaper of the big church in this area that is likely to have a lot of this station's listeners. Maybe I'll get some synergy from having both targeting the same customers.

[huggytree]

i get a few jobs a year from my church .im actually going to double my ad size soon....

sorry to hear youve only got 1 call....hope your out of your slump...my business is going bonkers...i cant keep up...working weekends....last month 55 hours...this month 200+...still no homeowner calls...everything is large remodels/new homes/commercial from builders i work with..

[Steve B]

Got the second customer and working on the third. One per week will be a profitable situation. The possible third customer is the sales rep for newspaper of the big church. While I was asking her about their rates, she said she heard about us on the radio and had been meaning to call. This supports my approach of targeting the same group of people. I'm also planning on putting up some yard signs on the exit ramps that they all get stuck on while trying to get to the church on Sunday. It's a huge church and they have to hire police to direct traffic every Sunday.

[Spider]

Good going, Steve. But I am surprised at the choice of name - Kibble Kar(t) ?

Around here and amongst my wife's grooming and boarding customers, anything "Kibble" will be discarded instantly as super low quality. Your ad is selling high quality dog food but your business name suggests otherwise.

(The popular Kibble & Bits is regarded by many as one of the worst dog foods available.)

FWIW

[Steve B]

Not sure how universal that perception would be. Around here it just means dry dog/cat food versus canned (wet) dog/cat food.

[greenoak]

maybe the timing isnt too good...around here most sales will slump in nov and dec except christmas decorations and gifts....
the idea of targeting the church people in 2 ways sounds real good...long term ads are the best too...imho
also, i wouldnt know what a kibble was...

[Steve B]

Just signed up #3 and she said she has a few friends she wants to tell about us.

[KristineS]

Glad to hear the ad is working.

You also may be right on target with the perception thing when it comes to names. Depending on where you are in the world or the U.S. or even a state, the same word can have a different meaning and provoke a different emotional response.

[huggytree]

i do the church bulletin and get 2-3 jobs a year from it...i pay $600 for a double size ad...it does work

how many ad's run a week on the radio?

1 customer a week kinda proves it really doesnt work that well....but at least it works

[glenneena]

I have used radio in a small rural market. It is hard to gauge your results and I do not feel radio is immediate returns. I do feel billboards is a better investment for service businesses.

[SnellExperts]

We have used radio ads a few times and seen some good return from it. I think it really just depends about making sure you pick the right demographic to air the ad too.

[Steve B]

HT - in this case, one customer a week from radio is definitely a success (based on a cost/benefit analysis). I now have customer #4 as we end week #4 so the ratio has been consistent. If I could keep that rate up - I'll spend a lot more money on radio. However, I have a feeling it will drop off in the next couple months - at least that's what happens with other forms of advertising I do.

They are doing a min. of 25 spots per week. They throw a lot in for free during the off hours, so I don't know what the total is.

Glenneena - why would it be hard to gauge results with radio? I just ask anyone that calls how they find out about our company. I'd love to hear your experience with Billboards - that's next on my list to try.

[huggytree]

i have heard plumbers on the radio before...but they never seem to run for more than a week or 2...so i assume it doesnt work.....im still considering it though...it would depend on what offer they give me...they bug me a couple of times a year...next time they call ill listen

[SC93]

I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that radio didn't work for the plumbers. My 1st guess would be, they only wanted to TRY it for a couple of weeks... not enough time to give it time to work... then throw in the towel. They MAY have no real clue about how marketing works. Or, maybe they get enough customers in that few weeks to carry them through the 'slow' time they may be going through. I'd lean more towards them not giving it a real chance. Although I've never tried radio, I push radio to all my business friends. Problem is, I live in the DFW area and the rates are SKY HIGH here.

By the way.... I'm Len. Just found the site Sunday. :o

[Patrysha]

Most of the one guy shops here never returned calls or set up meets. Actually no one local amongst the plumbers does anything other than truck ads and business card ads in the paper.

[huggytree]

Most of the one guy shops here never returned calls or set up meets. Actually no one local amongst the plumbers does anything other than truck ads and business card ads in the paper.

i just won a job (doing it tomorrow) for a customer who told me no one would give them an estimate or even return calls....i won because i do.....

there was a large 'flat rate' rip off plumbing company that did tv ads a while back....they are well known 25 years later because they saturated the TV when i was younger

[Steve B]

I'll be doing another radio spot on a more main stream station in the next week or two. I haven't gotten any new calls from the spot that has been running in over a week.

It seems that, despite what every advertising sales person has ever told me, advertising works best just after it initially comes out. This has been true for everything I've ever tried. This being the case, I may try running a radio ad for a short time on many different stations versus running for a long time on one station. The new ad will run for a total of 7 days.

[huggytree]

very exciting...i do think you are correct about all advertising working best when its brand new

[Patrysha]

What worked really well for a few of my clients was pulsing the ads, run for a week or two, off for a week or two...as soon as the ad runs the second swoop through the listener figures it's been on all along, but it saves the advertiser $$ over a straight run.

[Steve B]

Great idea Patrysha.

I'll have a lot more data this time next week. The new station has 5 times as many listeners as the first station (but it costs 12 times as much for the same spot). My company is new enough that I know 100% of the time why someone has called me (I ask and they always know exactly how they heard of us).

[Steve B]

I didn't get a single job from the one week ad on the new station and haven't gotten any calls from the original station since before Thanksgiving. I started on the original station on Nov. 1 and have been on every day since then.

I did find a station that is willing to play me 2 times a week at the same time every day. This will give me a chance to have a consistent presence in one particular time slot over a long period of time without breaking the bank. They are going to try to get their morning show people to talk about us also - I'll see how much this costs and may try it.

[aaron.paspe]

Though its been quite an old media to use, but it is still effective, repetition is the key to radio marketing. If your recording will be played on-air 1,000 times, this will sure capture audience attention.

:)

[Steve B]

My experience is proving the opposite - I only got calls in the beginning. Haven't had a single call in the last 6 weeks despite being on the air and repeating every day.

[aaron.paspe]

I believe that you need to broadcast the recording to a new radio station or probably more than one radio station and have it repeated all throughout the day for one week or so, then give it at least a week to produce a result. Like planting a seed, when you place the seed on a good soil it does not take a day to grow, you have to pamper it, be a little patient and I'm sure you will have results.

[Blessed]

Congrats on the early success Steve. I wonder how much the drop-off in calls you've seen has been because of the crazy busy holiday season? I think layering your marketing so that people hear your radio ad, see a newspaper ad, see your ad on some online local blogs/area information websites, see an ad on a billboard, etc... Is a good idea and will increase the response rate. Do you have an attractive hand-out piece you could leave with some area groomers, the vet, a pet stores and most importantly with your existing clients? Word-of-mouth is something that will bring more new customers in than anything! Are there any hunt clubs or dog training groups in your area? Get in touch with them see if you can advertise I their next newsletter or member directory...

And, if you ever decide to make monthly deliveries to my neighborhood you'd have one more customer - I'm always forgetting to go to the feed store and pick up our dogs food :)

[Steve B]

It has now been 8 weeks without a phone call from the station that started out strong. I know they are playing it because I listen to the station.

Starting this week, I'm paying a local DJ from a fairly popular morning show to give an endorsement. Maybe the personal touch will help.

[vangogh]

Hopefully that works. I can't offer any stats to back this up, but those personal endorsements strike me as being more effective. Some of those morning DJs have very loyal listeners.

[huggytree]

how's your radio ad going now?

anything new to report?

[Steve B]

Not a single phone call for the pet food delivery since the week before Thanksgiving. It has been run continuosly (4+ times per day, 7 days a week) since November 1. This is a relatively small station with 50,000 weekly listeners. I also did the local DJ thing on a more popular station - not a single phone call from that.

However, I started running an ad for the fence business and it seems to be doing a bit better (one job and a few other phone calls). It only takes 1 fence job to pay for the ad.

This week - I'm changing the ad for the pet food a little and directing them to my website for a very generous coupon. Either this is an example of throwing good money after bad; or, it's an example of taking advantage of the foundation that I've laid over the last few months. We'll see.

[Business Attorney]

If you don't get any direct calls from the radio ads, it is impossible to calculate your ROI, but I'll bet it is not zero. Someone who sees an advertisement somewhere else is likely to remember, at least in the back of their minds, that they heard the radio ad and it will boost their confidence in your products and service.

I'll be interested to hear how the ad directing them to the coupon works.

[KristineS]

Where are the ads running Steve? I know they're running 4+ times per day, but are they running at peak drive times? I'm sure you already know this, but the times when they run can make a huge difference in how many people are listening.

[vangogh]

If you don't get any direct calls from the radio ads, it is impossible to calculate your ROI, but I'll bet it is not zero.

I was thinking the same thing. To me radio spots and tv commercials seem more for branding than direct response. With radio spots people could be hearing the ad in the car or at the office or some other place where they can't drop everything and call. By the time they are thinking of calling or checking out your site, they've forgotten the number or address. Later though when they see the information in a print ad they remember "oh yeah, that's the company that does the delivery" and they clip the ad to have the info.

I'm sure there is some direct response to radio spots, but in general I'd think it's more a branding thing and harder to measure, though no less important.

[Steve B]

I continue any advertising if I calculate that it breaks even - or comes close. I only have one advertising item that ever has a clear positive return. I understand there is going to be a certain amount of residual benefit that will never be measured. But, in the extremely small business world - it's pretty hard to spend the amount of money necessary for a branding type of campaign.

Kristine - the 4 times a day are during the prime hours, but they won't comitt to exact times. I know I've heard it several times during the drive time however. It's actually played many additional times during the day, but they don't count it if it's after 8pm and before 6 am.

[vangogh]

it's pretty hard to spend the amount of money necessary for a branding type of campaign.

I disagree. I think that assumes branding has to happen at the scale of large companies like Nike and Apple or maybe not at the scale, but at a larger one than is really needed. In your case you'd be reaching the people who listen to the radio station(s) where your spot runs. They may not directly run to call you after hearing a spot, but there's a good chance they remember your name when they're looking to buy pet food. It's harder to measure the effect of the spots, but you can measure it to some degree.

The coupon is one way, though I think you're setting it up more to measure the direct response. You could offer a small discount that you run all the time. Make it easy enough to remember like the call letters of the radio station and mention it nowhere else. Some people will forget, but many will remember. You could also ask people where they heard about you. The more direct response still tells you something about the people you're reaching through the station and maybe there's a way to discover how many people you really reached for each successful direct response.

If you search through some of Patrysha's posts she's offered some good ideas about how to go about measuring this.

Mainly I think you shouldn't discount the effect the spots might have even if you can't get a 100% accurate picture of how they're working. That's not to say you should continue spending money forever without any understanding of what's happening, but you should try to past the direct responses to gain that understanding.

[Patrysha]

Direct response is totally possible with radio, but it has to follow all the elements of typical direct response copywriting in order to work and most small business owners are too skittish to go balls out on a fully DR ad (in print or on radio) because they do sound like an infomercial when it all boils down.

[Steve B]

You guys are WAY underestimating how hard it is to measure the effectiveness of things for my companies. Most company's don't know this information because they don't ask. I ask every customer that ever calls me how they heard of my company - in literally 97% of the cases (yes I measure it - it was 2% in '09, 6% in 10, and 3% in 11) they know EXACTLY where they heard of it and why they are calling. I credit the 3% to all the misc. things I do that can't be measured. The fact is the math just doesn't work to pay many thousands of dollars for advertising that results in a few hundred dollars in SALES (not profit). If there would eventually be a payback when some critical mass of awareness is reached - it's irrelevant because I would have been bankrupt long before it happens.

[vangogh]

You guys are WAY underestimating how hard it is to measure the effectiveness of things for my companies.

I don't think we're underestimating the difficulty. I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm saying it is difficult to measure how effective some things are. That's why I'm saying you may not want to drop a radio spot because the direct response doesn't lead to break even status. If anything I think you're underestimating the value of branding. It's more than a residual effect.

I agree it can be difficult to measure the brand effectiveness of an ad or radio spot. That's why I tried suggesting ways you might measure it.


they know EXACTLY where they heard of it and why they are calling.

Are you sure? A customer hears your radio spot. A couple of weeks later they find your website through a link on another site. Other times they come across your site in search results, sometimes they visit the site sometimes they don't. One day they decide they need a fence or pet food and they grab the phone book and choose your name to call. When you ask how they heard about you they tell you they found you in the phone book, because that's the last thing they remember.

You'll insist that doesn't happen, but the reality is the person may never remember the radio spot or search results or even your website. Or maybe they remember the site and forgot the radio spot and the times they saw your name in search results though they didn't click. They may not remember, but more than likely they were affected by those things.

I'm not saying you should be spending thousands of dollars on advertising that result in a few hundred dollars in sales. I'm saying you should be trying to better understand which advertising is and isn't working. The next time you're thinking of running radio spots or taking out a series of ads somewhere think in advance of the different ways you can measure how effective the spots or ad are. It doesn't have to cost you a lot other than a little extra time up front planning.

[Steve B]

Yes, I am sure. Your suggestion for measuring by use of a coupon isn't necessary. Without a coupon, people already can usually tell me they day (and often the time) when they heard it and on what station. Or, they tell me they got a flyer in their newspaper box last week. Or, they tell me they found me on the internet after they used Google and used the xyz search term. Or, they say they saw my sign on Main Street. Or, they tell me their friend at work, Jane Doe, told them about us. I know it's more fun to discuss theory and hypothetical things, but, in my case, since I'm the only one that ever answered the phone and always ask the same questions and follow up questions if necessary, I'm very sure about the data. I can even accurately identify the 3% because they simply can't answer the question like the other 97% can.

I understand that some of the 97% are influenced by previous contact as well, but, beleive it or not, even that is often easy to identify. They tell me they've heard of us before "somewhere", but their friend handed them a flyer the other day and it made them call. My guess is I would have to spend tens of thousands a year to get a few more of these vague responses, but it wouldn't be worth the cost.

My point is that the vast majority of businesses don't know where their customers are coming from because they don't ask. Or, if they're big enough, they have too many people answering the phone and it isn't done consistently or it isn't done correctly. I talk to a lot of small business owners and I've only found 2 or 3 that remember to ask on any consistent basis.

[huggytree]

i ask every customer.....its about 90% referral and 10% internet

sorry to hear radio didnt work for you.... i often hear new businesses advertise on the radio....most dont last more than a few weeks/months...it works for some businesses for sure...its just got to be the right business and the right commercial

[Steve B]

I envy you and lots of other trades like yours. Most of them don't need to advertise. I spend lots of money and lots of time thinking about what to try next. I also get lots of referrals - but not enough that I don't have to find customers in other ways.

[huggytree]

the majority of my work is from builders...they find the work...i just tag along.....after years ive gotten it down to a good group who pay on time and know how to work with me to get the job done efficiently....the vast majority of my work and highest profit is from builder work. i have $5,000-$10,000 checks coming from builders all the time..while homeowner jobs are typically $200-$1000.....add up all the drive time to make $200 per person...vs going to 1 job site all day for 2-4 days in a row and getting a $10,000 check at the end...

most homeowner projects are small and medium level profit...service work is filler....

i am in 1 phone book for $800 a year and a church bulletin for $1,200....thats it.....the church bulletin is more of a donation...if i get $1200 in business from it im happy...otherwise ill drop it next year....the local phone book just became crowded and im not getting much from it anymore....

next year my advertising budget may be $0

ill put $2000 into internet marketing then.....my internet sales have really become good...i have a very small Adwords campaign..$7 a month....i get 1-2 calls a month that i can directly attribute to that $7..........now if i knew enough to expand on that i could be rich......thats what i need to pay someone for(and probably will)

your not really a subcontractor...your always the PRIME contractor Steve....your way of finding customers is very different than mine.....but the size of the project is probably similar...i wouldnt want to be you.....when a Prime contractor wins a remodel or a new home he only needs 4-10 of them a year to live good...i need 1,000 projects a year to live....id think you'd be in the middle with 200-300 projects a year needed?????

whats your sell ratio?

[Steve B]

Expanding Adwords is simple enough for anyone to do - especially since you're not competing on a global or even national scale.

You're correct - I'd be happy to have 200 full fence installations. I probably do a similar amount of repairs and other small jobs. My repairs are $85 - they really pay for the gas and the labor and give me a chance to sell the dog food to them. If I had the business, I would have a much easier time expanding - less equip., easier to find affordable labor and no union to worry about. I just need to find enough customers. I've had three good months in a row, so if the economy continues to improve, this might be the year.

[huggytree]

if $85 is no profit why not charge $95?

every time i up my prices i never see any hit to sales....no you cant double it, but when i add a few bucks each year it results in the same sales or higher. if $85 isnt working for you i wouldnt keep doing it....not with the 'hope' of a dog food upsell....

i know an electrician who installs ceiling fans for a loss for Home Depot....he does a 'free' electrical inspection...he hopes to find problems and create the profit from the upsell.....it makes him seem like a con man to me....and im sure homeowners love it when they do it too

[Steve B]

That's the going rate for that type of work in this area. If I get better at scheduling them by geography, I can make a little money. Some repairs only take 10 minutes, others take 30 or 40 minutes. It's just that I cover a very large territory and I like to get to them right away. If I would make people wait a few days so I can schedule them better it will be O.K.

[huggytree]

water heaters go for $650-750 in my area.....i charge $850-950.....i still get almost every one that calls (referrals mostly)

i tried lowering my prices to capture the few stray price shoppers.....i found i didnt get any of them even with a lower price....so i raised it back up

just because its the going rate doesnt mean you need to lose money...or break even....breaking even sucks