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View Full Version : Those top rankings could be illusions



Karon Thackston
09-21-2011, 04:27 PM
I keep finding posts by people on FB and on other forums I visit saying they had no idea their rankings were so great. When I search for the keywords they mention, however, their sites are nowhere to be found. The problem (most of the time) is that they have personal search turned on and don't realize it.

If you are signed into ANY Google-owned site (Google Analytics, AdWords, Gmail, YouTube, etc.) you have automatically engaged personal search. That will screw up all the search rankings you see. If you search for your own site, it will show much higher than it probably would have if you were not logged in. Don't get too excited about popping up in the top 10 until you make sure you've logged out of all things Google first.

KristineS
09-21-2011, 05:04 PM
Good point. I ran into this a few times before I got it figured out.

cbscreative
09-21-2011, 05:28 PM
Yep, search engines are getting increasingly smarter, even to the point of providing "personalized" results. The downside as you pointed out is the potential for a false sense of accomplishment.

vangogh
09-21-2011, 11:48 PM
Great point and a big reason why ranking is less important than it once was. You can throw geolocation into the mix as well. Lots of times a page will rank well in one city and not another.

I think for the last couple of years at least there's been a shift away from ranking and toward overall search traffic. Not that you don't want to improve where pages rank, but you're better off thinking about your overall traffic from search engines and whether or not it's increasing than about how well specific pages rank for specific keywords and phrases. Even better is measuring how well the traffic converts and around which pages and which theme of keywords.

KristineS
09-22-2011, 09:45 AM
I think conversion is the biggest point. It doesn't matter how high your page ranks on a search engine if you can't convert those people who click the link. It isn't enough to be at the top of the search list, you have to be able to close the sale after the searcher finds you. If you can't do that, the highest search ranking in the world doesn't mean anything.

vangogh
09-22-2011, 10:29 AM
True. One mistake people have always made in regards to keywords and search results is targeting vanity keywords, those words and phrases that appeal more to ego than to anything useful in regards to conversions.

Karon Thackston
09-22-2011, 02:14 PM
Yes, agreed 100% on conversion. I think one reason SEO is getting harder to measure is because practically everybody sees something different. IP address, physical location (like you said Vangogh), personal search and half a dozen other factors mean virtually every person see different search results. Saying "I rank #7 for this keyphrase" doesn't mean what it used to :)

People still love to track their results. It lets them know they are making progress. But, I think they need to start tracking different results than strictly where they rank.

vangogh
09-26-2011, 10:48 AM
I think they need to start tracking different results than strictly where they rank.

Agreed. There can still be some value in understanding something about where your pages rank, but I can see where they're becoming more a vanity thing. What's more important is the traffic search engines are sending, to what pages they send it, how well those pages convert etc.

I understand about tracking. People want to have some measure of how well they're doing and they want to see results. I track my overall search traffic and I track the pages attracting that traffic. I look at the words and phrases sending search traffic too. Every so often I look at where a page ranks for a given keyword, but I don't worry about it too much. The top page on my site is up to about 12,000 or so visits from search engines a month and it does that by getting a visit or two from thousands of different phrases. The top phrase sending traffic to the page sends about 500 visits a month.

I don't think it's that valuable to know where the page ranks for every variation of the keywords sending traffic. I'd rather keep track of the overall numbers. Am I getting more traffic to the page this month than I did 6 months ago? Does it pull traffic for more phrases than it did a few months ago? What are the keyword themes sending traffic?

greenoak
09-26-2011, 07:49 PM
good points..we have 4 or 5 email addresses, would it matter which one we searched from? the personal ones arent connected to the store....
i think our page is in the top 5 ...even on other computers...maybe im wrong, but i dont feel like i need to work on that part....and i like being in the first group.... its got to be very helpful for us since we deal with travellers coming into our state and we are at the very top for them...and then have a useful website...to tempt them to come see us...
we are a regional business not national..
i rarley scroll down to the second page when im searching.......

architex
10-13-2011, 08:17 PM
I agree with everything said in this thread. One more thing that is really affecting results is Google places. Like others have said search will just become more and more location specific. Now granted not everything you search for is location specific but a lot of things are.

Karon Thackston
10-14-2011, 08:18 AM
That's true.

greenoak
10-14-2011, 09:08 AM
im trying to follow the downside of working to be on the first page of searches.....thats always my goal.......... i love being on the first page...who wouldnt? but im local and its so much easier for me than any business in competition with all the web work businesses out there.... you all are in an ocean of competition ......
somehow we are on the first page for what we offer...indiana antiques....i assume part of it is becasue we have been on line for so many years...and for us most of the searchers from far away wouldnt count much since from california etc they wouldnt be coming here anyway.......when an out of state buyer does want to come near us and searches indiana we are on the first page..thats why im always interested in our page rank.....and any ways i can measure our visibility...
and i realize reports from other computers would be lots more accurate than reports from ours.... .
im glad to hear that location is getting more importance....

vangogh
10-14-2011, 11:47 AM
Ann it's not that there's a downside to being on the first page. It's more that what you see on the first page isn't necessarily what I see on the first or what your customers see on the first page. The search engines are making results more personal and more local and all sorts of things to show different people a different set of results. So when you attempt to measure where you rank what you see isn't necessarily the truth about where you rank.

The idea is that instead of focusing on a specific rank, since you can't really be sure where you're ranking, is to focus more on the overall traffic your getting from a specific keyword phrase or a theme of keyword phrases. Ranking #1 is still a desired goal, but because of the way search engines are personalizing things there's no longer a single rank for webpages and measuring where your page ranks isn't as accurate as it was in the past.

Business Attorney
10-14-2011, 12:38 PM
While I agree that the amount of traffic is more important that where you rank in the search engine results, and that traffic without conversion is meaningless, I think the implication that rank isn't important is clearly wrong. I'm concerned that someone reading this thread could easily come to the erroneous conclusion that he or she should not pay attention to rank.

In order to know how to increase your traffic (and conversions), you need to know as much about your traffic as you can. Where does it come from? If it comes from AdWords, affiliate sites, referring sites, email marketing or directly from bookmarked links, then maybe you don't need to worry too much about search engines in general.

On the other hand, if you get traffic from search engines, a site's position in the SERPs is crucial. Yes, if you have the type of business where local search is a factor, the organic non-local search engine results get pushed down, but I suspect there is still a huge difference if you get pushed completely off the front page.

I have several websites and look at the Google webmaster tools regularly. Even without all the reported studies that show the drop-off in clicks as you go down in position in the SERPs, on a non-controlled, non-scientific basis it is easy to see a pattern. Although every search term is different, the difference between having the average position being <2 versus 5 is the difference in click-through rates of 40-60% versus a click through rate of 5-15%. Once the term's position in the results is below the first page, the click-through rate is negligible.

I am not suggesting that someone get hung up on micro-managing every search term. If you have a term that ranks at 11 and has 100 searches a month, concentrating on that one term to move it to 7-8 may only be worth a couple of clicks a month, but if you have a search term that has 1,000 impressions a month, concentrating on improving the SEO for the term to move it up 4 positions could net you several hundred extra visits a year.

vangogh
10-14-2011, 01:46 PM
The thing is you can't accurately measure where your pages rank like you once could. Say you see your page ranking #1 for a phrase you've targeted. Seems great. Job well done. The thing is you may only be seeing it #1, because it's been personalized for you. The person you want to visit your site might see your page as #100. Even if personal history is off there are differences in geographic location. And lets face it the typical person isn't turning personal search off or even aware there is such a thing.

Saying a page ranks in the 4th position on page 1 is becoming meaningless because it's only going to be true for some people. That's not to say you don't want to improve where pages rank, but it is to say if you focus on ranking you aren't getting a clear picture of what's going on. Looking at your overall traffic, including what words and phrases are driving traffic can give you a better picture of what's happening and give you better information for taking action.

Ultimately all the data you're collecting is there so you can understand what's going on and take some action to improve. Ranking data isn't going to give you the best information because of all the variety different people see in results.


If you have a term that ranks at 11

A simple sentence like that is losing it's meaning. You don't really rank at #11. The page ranks at #11 for one person, #7 for another, #32 for yet another. Sure in all cases you'd like that number to be higher, but you can't look at the rank in absolute terms anymore since it's now a moving target.

One last point. Pages rank for a variety of phrases. When you focus on how a page ranks for a single phrase you look to optimize for that phrase. You could improve it at the cost of ranking well for another phrase. You might increase traffic for the one phrase, but end up losing traffic overall.

greenoak
10-14-2011, 08:25 PM
i followed what you were saying ..
im just real happy to be on the first page in my main category for so many , to me ,obvious reasons.....and last time i checked it wasnt just from my computer.... i feel pretty sure that our store being on the first page makes us way more seen by the person planning their buying trip thru indiana than if we were on page 5...also im local and not looking for national rank or online sales....

vangogh
10-14-2011, 11:58 PM
You're definitely seen more by people if one of your page shows up on page 1 of the results than on page 5. I hope I haven't given the impression that I'm suggesting both are just as good. I'm only saying that being on page 1 doesn't mean you're always on page 1. I'm guessing when you checked on other computers they were all still in your town or neighboring towns. It's possible that in other towns in Indiana someone else ranks #1. It's possible you still rank #1 in those other towns too.

Because it's less accurate to measure ranking now, I think other things are better to measure and track.

Business Attorney
10-15-2011, 02:29 AM
Steve, when I refer to a term appearing in a specific position in the search, I only rely on what Google webmaster tools says is the average position. I agree that trying to determine the position on my own would be fraught with uncertainty for the reasons you indicated.

And yes, the number I get from Google webmaster tools is just an average position. However, as long as the average is based on several hundred impressions in a month (which are the only ones I even pay attention to for the reasons I explained in my earlier post), I think that the average is useful.

The fact that it is an average means, of course, that the query will appear higher in the search results for some viewers and lower for others. Also, if your site appears more than once on a search results page, Google reportedly uses both in calculating its number, so if one page of my site appears at #1 and a different page at #5 on the same search results page, Google includes it as an average position of 3. Clearly, being at positions #1 and #5 is better than being at #3; they are not equivalent. So even though it is reported to the tenth of a position (e.g., 2.7), the number represents a mishmash of information.

Also, unlike some paid tools, Google webmaster tools does not break the search down by page. To modify the example I gave in the preceding paragraph, you could have one page appearing fairly consistently at #3 and another appearing equally consistently at #25 for the same search query. Google would report your site (not a particular page) at an average position of #14 and you might be puzzled to see that you are getting a reasonably constant set of clicks from the engines.

Although the apparent exactness of the figures can tempt a person to put too much weight on the numbers, I think it is fairly safe to say that a term that Google webmaster tools says occupies an average position of 11 is not getting the same exposure as a term that it pegs at a #3 position. In fact, although a average is not the same as a median, I think it is probably a safe bet that if Google webmaster tools shows one of your search terms at an average position of 11, it is appearing below the first page for large numbers of people (mathematically, your term could appear eight times at the #1 spot and once at #91 and end up with an average position of 11, but that would be an extremely abnormal distribution of results).

The data from Google webmaster tools is just one more piece of the puzzle. For someone who relies on AdWords, direct links, subscribers or affiliates to drive traffic to his site, the information from Google is probably only a very small piece. For someone who relies heavily on search engine traffic, I think it can play a much more valuable role, but it is still only one piece of the big picture.

Using and interpreting the data will be easier if you have a basic understanding of statistics, and the interpretation will be more useful if you know the methodologies used to gather and combine the underlying data into the reports you ultimately see. However, as long as you recognize that it has its limitations, it can help guide you where to productively direct your efforts.

greenoak
10-15-2011, 06:38 AM
i think you are assuming a lot about where im getting my page rank info... but thats ok...

vangogh
10-17-2011, 11:28 AM
i think you are assuming a lot about where im getting my page rank info

There are only so many places you can get that info. However if you think myself or anyone else is making bad assumptions you can fill us in with where your information is coming from. If you don't tell us we're not going to know and we'll have to assume you're getting your information from one of the common places most people get it.


I only rely on what Google webmaster tools says is the average position

That's a good place to get it. Like you pointed out though, it's still an average. 1 and 11 average out to 6. So does 5 and 7, 4 and 8, etc. The possibilities increase as we add more than 2 ranks and the average moves back from the first page. My point is you're still don't really know what's happening. You're getting some information, but there are ways to get better information.

I'm not suggesting that you shouldn't prefer to rank #3 over #4. I'm suggesting that it's much harder now to know whether you rank #3 or #4 in the first place and that while you're focusing on that #3 or #4 ranking for one phrase you're probably missing out on the traffic you could be getting for many other phrases.

greenoak
10-17-2011, 05:21 PM
just asking that you dont assume that my info is just from local computers....im not trying to prove anything to you....and i hear you about the local influence....we talked about that quite a while ago...

vangogh
10-17-2011, 05:25 PM
Sorry. I said I was guessing originally. Obviously I don't know what computers you were checking results on. Unless you're specific there's no way for me to know It seemed like a reasonable guess and again I did say it was just a guess.