getting out of all the phone books this year

[huggytree]

when i 1st went into business i thought the phone book would make or break my business....i started in Dec/Jan and missed getting into all the books by a few months...i was soooo excited when my name finally got into some phone books (Nov the next year).....i thought i was finally going to go somewhere and my phone would ring several times a day just from the 3 phone books i was now in....i paid for small ads, but big enough to be noticed.....

November came and went...a couple of calls(price shoppers) and not 1 job...i was so dissapointed...i finally realized years later that price shoppers is who mainly use the phone book. I changed my ads to read 'i do it right'....guess what? all the cold calls suddenly stopped...they didnt want it done right, they wanted it done cheap.....last year i cut my listing down to just my name in BOLD.......this year ive decided to take my name completely out of all of them (except the small local one)....it will save me $1,000+ and i will put that $ into enlarging the church bulletin ad

surprisingly the church bulletin has gotten me some business and more than paid for the AD.....there are 6 other plumbers on that same back page, so i was shocked when it worked...i paid for a double AD and used bright colors to draw attention to ME....I will now pay for a 4x size AD and be the biggest listing in the whole bulletin...i might even throw a family photo in it since my kids also go to school there and my wife is the home/school president this year...were active and everyone will recognize someone from my family...my goal is to squash the other 6 plumbers out of the bulletin

the small local phone book has been a gem for years...i always paid for a 1/8 AD, but i always seemed to end up by myself on the 'next page' because my company name starts with W....last year i paid for a 1/2 page AD which put me #1....and my sales have doubled from it...buy local seems to be a popular attitude in my small town

anyone else given up completely on the phone book?

[greenoak]

i would think your business should always be in there.... here we all are so used to the internet....but tons of older people dont even think of it...and they might be the ones adding on or building new things....and you are totally local....
im giving it up...but i dont need ads in our small town...and my mian customers are mid age to young...so into google....

[KristineS]

If you've found that the phone book doesn't work for you, and you've tested other ad venues that you've found do work, why would you stay with the ones that don't work? Marketing is all about experimentation and testing. You try things, keep the ones that work and throw the rest out. In this case, I'd say the phone books should go on the out pile.

If non tech savvy people finding you is a worry, our local newspaper used to do a home repair round-up and they would list local plumbers, electricians etc, and you could also buy an ad in that edition of the paper. Not sure if your local paper does something similar, but it could be another option.

[huggytree]

i agree that old people are who mainly use phone books...i also find most old people who use the phone book are poor...ive had tons of calls asking for discounts because they are old. all were from the phone book

most older people who are successful in life use the internet....maybe im wrong, but its what ive found

[Patrysha]

most older people who are successful in life use the internet....maybe im wrong, but its what ive found

Well it really depends on how old you are talking about. My father in law is in his early 70's...was extremely successful, but is a stubborn old guy and refused to adapt to computers...course...he'd never call a plumber...he'd just do it himself...former boiler-maker who used to put in septic systems on acreages amongst other things...so maybe not the best example...but I'm sure there are more...

[storymashup]

Great thread discussion, I have some personal experience with this. I had a client of mine advertise in the yellow pages and for a year's listing spent $1,200 and in 6 months he probably received 1 phone call. Needless to say he was not happy - I've shown him the power of the internet. The truth is, a lot of businesses are moving their ad dollars to online venues. Huggytree what is your business? I don't see it in your sig. For this thread, I'm going to upload a cool pic. if the mods allow.

[storymashup]

163

Hope you are all able to see this awesome pic.

[huggytree]

i knew a guy who ran a large electrical company...he had a full page ad and told me it costs $1,500 a month(it actually was going to cost more, but he tracked his calls and got them to lower it because of LACK OF CALLS)....for his full page ad he gets 4-8 jobs a month....at a cost of $350 per call.....he does it for the upsell....he always does a 'free' evaluation and finds more to fix

he also does ceiling fans for Home Depot for a loss...just to get in the house for the 'free' evaluation once again

i really have trouble with the whole concept of doing anything at a loss just for a possible upsell....

[Patrysha]

i really have trouble with the whole concept of doing anything at a loss just for a possible upsell....

It's a matter of playing with numbers and going with them if they work. Things that look like a loss on the surface, often aren't in the long term. Especially once the calculations consider the lifetime value of a customer.

Those so-called free estimates do generate enough business to pay for the time and expense it takes to provide them...it only looks like a loser on the surface.

It's similar to the way other businesses offer free or low cost initial consultations or other service. Sure you might have a percentage (even a large percentage depending on the business, the offer...etc) that only go for the freebie and cost you money on paper...but the ones that do go with the so-called "upsell" more than pay for that cost. It's lead generation...and the expenses can actually be less than traditional advertising.

However, I've found that offers that cost at least something have much higher conversion rates than where the gateway is a freebie...

Yellow Page ads can work...but most of the ads are not optimized to generate action...poorly conceived, poorly written - but it's not worth it to most small business owners to bother with optimizing...easier to pull out and put the money into advertising that has generated sales for the business than to waste more time and money on one that hasn't.

[Steve B]

"Yellow Page ads can work...but most of the ads are not optimized to generate action...poorly conceived, poorly written "

Sorry - but, I think this might have been good advice 20 years ago. It doesn't matter how well something is conceived and written if only 10% of the people that get handed a telephone book even carry it into the house. Of the 10% that bother to bring it in - probably half of them forget to open it up because they just look it up on-line. I'm making up those numbers for the sake of argument. The point is that the number of people that open a phone book is dramatically different than it was 20 years ago (I guarantee it is less than 25%).

I'm trying to get out of all Yellow Pages. My results have been exactly the same as HT. When I do get a call, it's usually from someone who sounds like they are over 65 years old and are usually shocked at how much my stuff costs. If they are less than 65, then they are from a very poor section of our city and can't afford my service anyway.

[Spider]

According to comScore Data Mine, the average American spent 32 hours per month on the Internet in 2010. Persons ages 45-54 set the high bar averaging more than 39 hours online each month. You may be surprised to know that people 65 and over spent more time on the internet than people 18-24 (33.7 hrs vs 32.2 hrs.)

Notice that is barely more than an hour per day.

So, the chances are that when anyone wants to contact a business in their locality, there is a 16 to 1 chance that they are not online at that moment. That means, they must stop what they are doing, go to their computer, tablet or cellphone, turn it on, and type in what they are looking for. Or, they can take out their Yellowpages and look up the number directly.

Obviously, some companies are finding success advertising in the YP or they would have removed their ads by now. Equally clearly, the people who do not find success advertising in the YP aren't doing it right. In advertising, I learned a long tine ago - it is never the medium that is at fault, it is the advertiser that hasn't discovered how to use the medium to their advantage.

Now, if one believes that one's target does not use the YP, there's no point in learning how to do it right. I question whether one can say with certainty that their target market in total does or does not do anything. Therefore, I'm inclined to think that, if my competition is not, or no longer, advertising in the YP, I can have all those people in my target who do, with little competition. So, maybe I should learn how to do it right.

It is never the tool that is wrong, it is always the operator.

[storymashup]

There is a flawed logic thinking just because SOME people still use the yellow pages you should use it too,

@spider said this "So, the chances are that when anyone wants to contact a business in their locality, there is a 16 to 1 chance that they are not online at that moment. That means, they must stop what they are doing, go to their computer, tablet or cellphone, turn it on, and type in what they are looking for. Or, they can take out their Yellowpages and look up the number directly."

Two things to make clear: If you are on the FIRST page on any search engine (ranking #1-10) YOUR business will be found ahead of anyone else. When you are in the yellow pages, unless you have a humongous ad, you are competing with thousands of other businesses. However, on page one of the search engines for your keyword you are competing with Maybe 10! (This is the true comparison of being on the internet vs. being in the yellow pages).

[Steve B]

My personal experience for the last 7 years advertising extensively in both mediums is that 1.5% of my business comes from the phone books versus 35% from the internet (the amount I spend on each is roughly equal).

The amount of time people spend on the internet is great to know - if you only had a comparable number for how many hours per day people spend looking through a phone book. That's mind blowing that people are spending 6.25% of every waking hour on the interent. I'm guessing the amount of time they are going through the phone book is far less than that. Another thing that would be interesting is how many hours per day people are within 10 feet of a computer, smart phone, or tablet versus being within 10 feet of a phone book.

[Spider]

There is a flawed logic thinking just because SOME people still use the yellow pages you should use it too,... Who said, "Because some people still use the yellow pages you should use it too?" Not I! I have been saying that, because some people have stopped using the Yellowpages that is no reason for you to stop advertising in it.

The flawed logic is --
...being on the internet vs. being in the yellow pages). [/B]Why can one not do both?

[Spider]

...how many hours per day people are within 10 feet of a computer, smart phone, or tablet versus being within 10 feet of a phone book.That's a good one, Steve. For my part, I qualify on both counts - when I am at my computer my feet are resting on my Yellowpages (not because I want it close to hand but because I want comfortable legs!)

[Patrysha]

I agree with you Steve that it's not worth the effort and cost of optimization in today's market for the majority of small business owners. However, for those who are not pulling out and transitioning to other mediums...they should know that they can increase the odds of having the ads generate calls if they're spending the $$ anyway...

In truth, most of the sbo's I run into don't know what the return is on any of their advertising and couldn't tell you what they get from any given tactic. And they aren't pulling out of the YP's because they have no idea how poorly it's performing for them...

[billbenson]

I think that is an important point that Steve just made. Yellow pages are generally used by people with less money. The people that get the best jobs these days are in their 30's. I know two different sales guys who make more than $500K who are in their 30's. As you get older its harder to get the good jobs in spite of experience. I ended up self employed because I was job hunting and building my business at the same time. I was making more money in my business than the job offers with more upside potential so I quit job hunting.

Younger people have more disposable income and are more likely to spend it to get quality. They are also more likely to search online. If that's your target market then online marketing is more important.

[Spider]

I think we are still using anecdotal pseudo-statistics to prove a supposition that is not based on sound logic.

People in their 30s spend 36.6 hours per month on the internet on average, as opposed to people 65 and over who spend 33.7 hrs/mo, and that's a difference of 8.6%. Is it not a reasonable deduction to say that people in their 30s are only 8.6% more likely to search for a telephone number online than people 65 and over? I can see a relationship with trade or occupation - people in their 30s are more likely to be involved in an internet business than people 65 and over, so are more inclined to search online - but to say that people 65 and over are generlly poorer than people in their 30s and people with less money use the Yellowpages, is not, in my view, a well-supported argument.

[Dan Furman]

According to comScore Data Mine, the average American spent 32 hours per month on the Internet in 2010. Persons ages 45-54 set the high bar averaging more than 39 hours online each month. You may be surprised to know that people 65 and over spent more time on the internet than people 18-24 (33.7 hrs vs 32.2 hrs.)

Notice that is barely more than an hour per day.

I think a more useful bit of data is how many Americans have the internet, and then the usage by them. And also how it breaks down via income. I suspect the numbers are a LOT higher.

For example, there's no point in counting people who cannot afford the internet (yet, I suspect to come up with such a low number, they are including everyone). I would also suspect that, in general terms, someone who refuses to use the internet is not going to be a super-prolific consumer.

Also, are they including smart phones and apps like Yelp, aroundme, etc? How about the internet at work?

I'm not a big fan of stats like this - you can find "stats" to prove whatever you want.

[billbenson]

but to say that people 65 and over are generlly poorer than people in their 30s and people with less money use the Yellowpages, is not, in my view, a well-supported argument.


Younger people have more disposable income and are more likely to spend it to get quality. If that's your target market then online marketing is more important.

Note the word disposable. When I was young I had two boats and a Porsche and no wife to support. Now I'm 55 and am careful what I spend money on. No boats, no Porsche.

I think Dan is correct in saying you can provide stats to prove either case. I also noted that "if that was your target market". Both Huggy and Steve_B have that as their target market.

So, on the contrary, I believe my logic was sound.

[DeniseTaylor]

Hi

I live in a large city and I'm surprised to hear that phone books still exist! Everything we do is online, including looking up phone numbers. Maybe your area isn't there yet, but I'd make sure I had a listing with Google Places! :o

[Spider]

Yes, I noticed the reference to "disposable" income and took that into account, Bill. People in their teens and 20s have a high disposable income, but in their 30s, people are getting married, having children, buying homes, saving for college, etc. I would suggest that overall, people 65 and over have a higher disposable income than people in their 30s, (though possibly less than people in their 20s.)

[storymashup]

Wow, this is a lively thread, let's keep it going :o @Spider, I was not calling you out in any way... I was just giving another perspective. Another thing that needs to be looked at is Return On Investment (ROI). So far in my very limited sample size, I saw that the ROI achieved when using the internet was higher. Example, client spend $1200 for a year's contract with yellow pages. Have not received a phone call from the yellow pages in 8 months... versus the internet (literally saved his business). By the way, client is a pilot that flies charter services throughout Florida and the Bahamas

[Spider]

The implication throughout all these comments is that there is something wrong with the YellowPages, and my message is there is nothing wrong with Yellowpages. If you (anyone) are not getting results from your YP advertising it's because you are doing somethng wrong, not that YP advertising doesn't work. And that is the same message for any advertising medium.

There are many businesses that are getting good sales from their web advertising, and there are many - probably most - businesses that are not getting good sales from their web advertising. That doesn't mean web advertising doesn't work - it means those that are unsuccessful have not yet learned how to be successful.

There is way too much blaming of 'the other person, thing, medium or whatever.' In business, if one is going to be successful, one needs to drop this constant blaming and look to oneself for the answer. Instead of saying, "The Yellowpages don't work," one has to admit that, "I am not using the Yellowpages correctly." Only with this better attitude can you set your business on a path to success.

[storymashup]

wow, talk about his getting more "lively" :D @spider spared no punches with that one. The thing that irks me about the yellow pages is that unless you are able to stand out, more likely with a full page spread ad, (which strangely I always get the sense that those businesses that advertise like that are going to be more expensive) you are going to get buried amongst the weeds. If I go to Google and type in a search phrase and you are using Adwords or SEO, and are on the first page, I stand more of a chance of finding you even if I wrote the most terrible ad.. In any event, we agree to disagree.. I'm biased towards the internet, as I have seen the effects of it.

[billbenson]

The implication throughout all these comments is that there is something wrong with the YellowPages, and my message is there is nothing wrong with Yellowpages. If you (anyone) are not getting results from your YP advertising it's because you are doing somethng wrong, not that YP advertising doesn't work. And that is the same message for any advertising medium.

There are many businesses that are getting good sales from their web advertising, and there are many - probably most - businesses that are not getting good sales from their web advertising. That doesn't mean web advertising doesn't work - it means those that are unsuccessful have not yet learned how to be successful.

There is way too much blaming of 'the other person, thing, medium or whatever.' In business, if one is going to be successful, one needs to drop this constant blaming and look to oneself for the answer. Instead of saying, "The Yellowpages don't work," one has to admit that, "I am not using the Yellowpages correctly." Only with this better attitude can you set your business on a path to success.

As a generalization I think your post is accurate. And I think we all agree it's industry dependent etc.The thing is you see it as an ongoing marketing tool and most of us see it as a dying Blockbuster. Time will tell.

[Spider]

Indeed, time will tell. As it always does ... if those complaining are still around to witness it!