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vangogh
07-16-2011, 11:49 PM
Here's an article I came across on choosing keywords. The article, What Small Business Clients Need to Know About Keywords and SEO (http://www.seomoz.org/blog/what-small-business-clients-needs-to-know-about-keywords-and-seo), using an example of a landscaping business in Central New Jersey to show how that business should choose keywords for the short term and the long term.

Here's a good quote from the article.


You will see better results if you start by ranking locally and then expand to more competitive markets. Begin by ranking well for your town, then County, then Central Jersey. Once you rank well for Central Jersey it's much easier to gain rankings for NJ than if you started with NJ initially. This enables you to keep your strong search results for your less competitive (and more localized) keywords providing you more reach and web visibility.

The approach the article takes is a good strategy for any small business, not just local ones, though the specifics of the article deal with local searches.

There are two advanced operator (http://www.googleguide.com/advanced_operators.html) searches the article mentions that you may or may not be familiar with.

The first is intitle, which searches for for the phrase you're using in the titles of web pages. To get intitle results you search in google for

intitle:"your keyword phrase"

The second is the inanchor search, which looks for the phrase in anchor text (the clickable words of a link) pointing to web pages.

inanchor:"your keyword phrase"

Page titles and anchor text are two well known signals Google uses when determining where to rank web pages.

You can learn more about advanced search operators (they aren't all for seo) in this article, Google Power User Tips: Query Operators (http://searchengineland.com/google-power-user-tips-query-operators-48126) and in the link above with the anchor text "advanced operator."

Business Attorney
07-17-2011, 02:40 AM
Interesting article. Thanks vangogh.

I also read many of the comments. The discussion in the comments regarding running PPC to help determine which keywords to use in the SEO campaign was interesting, too.

greenoak
07-17-2011, 07:25 AM
i liked the article and comments too....especially the point abuot figuring out the right , best fitting keywords before investing the time and money... thats a hard one for us right now...

vangogh
07-18-2011, 10:34 AM
@David - SEOmoz often gets some good discussion going in the comments. SEOs have been using PPC for awhile to help determine keywords. Naturally you have to spend some money to do the research, but you get to see which keywords really get searched for and clicked.

@Ann - Yeah, it's important to determine which keywords have the most potential before spending too much time or money investing in optimizing your site. Keyword research is really where it all starts.

billbenson
07-18-2011, 01:47 PM
SEOs have been using PPC for awhile to help determine keywords.

I've been doing that for years and even recommended it here. Works great but you kind of need to know how to optimize adwords ads which is SEO in the first place.

vangogh
07-18-2011, 04:19 PM
I think for testing keywords you don't have to optimize as much. One strategy is to choose a few generic keywords around a theme and let them run for a few days. It will cost some money as the generic keywords get searched often, but you can get a lot of data back in a short amount of time. It might cost a few hundred dollars to run for a day or two, but you can gain a good understanding of what people search for around a given keyword theme.

Later when you have a better idea of what keywords you want to target it makes sense to optimize the campaign more and still mine it for additional data. In the beginning though you can let it run in a generic form to collect as much data as possible. Of course monitoring how much money you're spending so you don't go broke. :)

billbenson
07-18-2011, 11:28 PM
I'd still take a few different ads, a ton of keywords and a few different landing pages at a minimum for a test bed. The more the merrier and the ads and landing pages don't have to be overly targeted, but the do need to be kind of on subject IMO. To me that is a crude shot at SEO. You have to price things so they get impressions which may be the expensive part, but only expensive if they get clicks. You can run it for a few hours a day to keep the cost down. I like that better than sticking to a low budget.

I think we are pretty much saying the same thing though as you keep tweaking the ads, keywords, and landing pages as you go along.

I believe G says the Adwords and SERPS are completely independent. I don't believe that for a second. I think over time Adwords campaigns can affect natural SERPS.

Interesting as well that after the recent Panda changes my site places number one and two and the manufacturer I represent is three. And, as you are aware, my site ain't all that great!

vangogh
07-18-2011, 11:55 PM
The point is at first you don't know what those ton of keywords are. This is a way to pick them. Go with a one or a handful of generic keywords and phrases and let them run in broad match mode so they pick up plenty of other keywords. You won't be able to let it run long or it will end up costing more money than you want, but in a short amount of time you'll have a list of phrases you can then optimize.

This is just about discovering new keywords for a day or week depending on the theme of the keywords and how much you're willing to spend. Once you have some keywords to choose from you can work on using them for profit.

Cool about your site. Apparently your site is doing something Google likes. :)

greenoak
07-19-2011, 07:16 AM
im still having a keyword problem...maybe unsolveable... my goal is to find my adventurous young homeowner with good income....i know 2o or 30 of the obvious keywords.... but i look at what folks have put in google to get here and its no help..no pattern .. ive seen maybe 100 and they are totally all over the map...from chair to table to barn door.etc etc.its almost always something specific......some use antiques but my main women probably dont look at it that way....
so for me keywords are on the back burner, past the obvious anyway, and im trying to think of other plots or ways to appeal to them...
if i get on this again, io will probably dig in the archives here to see how you look at another sites keywords.... that was pretty interesting ifi can remember how to do it...

vangogh
07-19-2011, 11:24 AM
You have to go beyond the obvious keywords. The obvious list is your starting point. Perhaps the most important thing to understand about keywords is not everyone will use the same words to search for what you have. What's obvious to you isn't necessarily obvious to your customers. And if the words are that obvious to most then it's likely there will be a lot of competition in the search results for those keywords.

You want to take those obvious keywords and type them into a keyword tool (https://adwords.google.com/o/Targeting/Explorer?__u=1000000000&__c=1000000000&ideaRequestType=KEYWORD_IDEAS#search.none), which will show you hundreds more similar keywords.

You then go through those hundreds of keywords and eliminate those that don't apply and look over the ones that do to find which keywords get searched a lot and which have less competition in search results. That helps build your list.

To use them on your site you organize your new larger list into different keyword themes and use those themes to build out your site. It's not a quick a simple process and it takes some understanding to determine which are the best keywords to target. It's also a never ending process since you want to keep building out your keyword list and looking for new opportunities.

Here's an ebook about keyword research and selection (http://www.polepositionmarketing.com/library/e-books.php) (it's in the middle of the list) that I've always liked and think explains the process well. It's free too.


but i look at what folks have put in google to get here and its no help

Those of keywords you want to use. People are using the words and they're also finding you. It's a sign that your site can rank well for those keywords and probably other keywords that are similar in meaning and competition. Those are words and phrases you should add to your list.

Business Attorney
07-19-2011, 12:47 PM
I'm a little confused still. What does using PPC tell you that something like Google's keyword tool or Wordtracker do not?

billbenson
07-19-2011, 03:59 PM
@ Ann - You might also want to use product names that you strongly feel will represent "adventurous young homeowner with good income". Not barn door, but their must be some antiques that really apply to mostly these types of buyers.

billbenson
07-19-2011, 04:15 PM
@David - PPC allows you to tweak keywords for your exact page. It also happens much more quickly. Google is essentially telling you what they like for that landing page. No guesswork. With keywords from suggestion tools you are still doiing a lot of guessing. You select some keywords that you narrow down, but if your site is on page 10 of the serps, and you are getting hits for some keyword, what does that really tell you?

If your ad is number 1 in at the top of the natural SERPS list and you get hits for a particular keyword, you know what G likes for that page in that position.

myBusinessCash
07-19-2011, 04:23 PM
I would suggest you get some free tools from around the net. They have free trials for market samurai and SEO moz which are both good for doing a lot of keyword research evaluating your competition traffic expectations etc. I also suggest getting the free firefox SEO Quake plugin as well.

The more data you have the better the quality of the decisions you can make moving forward.

vangogh
07-19-2011, 05:52 PM
What does using PPC tell you that something like Google's keyword tool or Wordtracker do not?

It lets you collect real data. All the keyword tools extrapolate data from a small set of sources. Setting up a PPC campaign collects real data from real searchers. With the tools you get a list of keywords that might potentially work, but you really don't know which are the best until using them. With a few days of PPC running you know which words and phrases are actually being searched for and since some are clicking through to your site you can see how well they work.

It's not so much anything different as it is getting a better set of data quickly. You can use the keyword tools and optimize your pages, but it could still be months or years before your pages ever rank. You can guarantee visibility with the keywords by paying for them for a few days.


I would suggest you get some free tools from around the net

Yep. I'm certainly not advocating ignoring free and paid keyword tools. Using PPC is mainly a way to get real data and get it quickly.

Business Attorney
07-19-2011, 09:46 PM
Thank you. Now I understand, but I have a follow-up question. Let's say your key words are pretty expensive. Will you get usable information if you bid somewhat low or do you have to bid high enough to actually make it to the first page of the results? I checked once and many terms with "attorney" or "lawyer" were $30 a click and up. That could get costly pretty quickly.

Spider
07-19-2011, 10:08 PM
Especially when half the clicks might be other lawyers and attorneys clicking to find out what you are up to.

vangogh
07-19-2011, 11:16 PM
@David - It depends how quickly you want to collect the information. The more you're willing to bid the better your ad ranks and the quicker you'll get results. However you don't have to bid for something as generic as attorney or lawyer. In your case you could add Illinois to the phrase. I'm guessing that could still be expensive, but I would think less than without the state added. You could also target Chicago further reducing the bid.

You could get even more specific like mergers and acquisitions attorney or technology law, etc.

The basic idea is really that you can get results quicker through the ads than you can by optimizing for organic results. It's more economically sound to spend something to know one way or the other quickly than to invest the time, effort, and money attempting to rank for keywords that may ultimately prove not to be as valuable as you think. How sound depends on lot on the specifics.

I wouldn't suggest everyone try this, but it could be appropriate. A good example might be starting a new business. You think your idea is a good one, but you're not entirely sure. You could build a simple landing page maybe offering a free white paper or some other offer where you can measure the conversions. You run an AdWords campaign for a few days to and get visitors to the page and see who converts. The traffic data and the conversion data can probably tell you whether or not your idea is sound. It might cost you you a few hundred dollars, but it's probably well spent since it can potentially save you from wasting months trying to build a business unlikely to succeed. If it turns out the idea can work you've been able to collect some email addresses from targeted traffic.

I think it can be applied similarly with keyword research. Maybe you're considering offering a new service. You can do the same thing described above for some research about the viability of the new service. I'm sure if can be applied in other ways and again the basic idea is you're spending money for quicker data rather than spending time waiting to collect the data.

billbenson
07-19-2011, 11:36 PM
Thank you. Now I understand, but I have a follow-up question. Let's say your key words are pretty expensive. Will you get usable information if you bid somewhat low or do you have to bid high enough to actually make it to the first page of the results? I checked once and many terms with "attorney" or "lawyer" were $30 a click and up. That could get costly pretty quickly.

Attorney or lawyer are to general as VG mentioned. I would suggest paying for good terms, but rather than putting a cieling on the daily budget at a low rate, run it for two hours during a time of day or days of the week that you know your prospect visitors are surfing. I'm b2b and know my customers visit Monday through Friday 9 to 5 with the peaks being around 10 am and 2 pm Eastern time. If its a new site you might need to do some guessing, but you can make some good estimates time wise.

Also, you can use wordtracker or similar for getting your first group of keywords for the ads and then start adding deleting and editing from your stats.

I disagree with VG slightly in the time it takes to get some data. G takes some time to settle in on your ads, just like they take time to place SERPS pages. Its much faster, but ideally I'd allow for a couple of weeks. You might even want to start with some less expensive keywords at first and let the ads settle and then in a week or two add some more expensive keywords. There are lots of ways you can play with this.

vangogh
07-20-2011, 10:48 AM
You might even want to start with some less expensive keywords at first and let the ads settle and then in a week or two add some more expensive keywords.

Bill do you mean optimizing the keywords for profit? What I'm suggesting is something where you'd be looking to do the opposite for a short time with the payoff being the data you can collect about all the keywords that you would then use to optimize for profit. Just checking to see if we're on the same page.

billbenson
07-20-2011, 12:59 PM
I think the best way to develop your list of keywords using adwords is to start a small campaign. Then use keywords found in your stats as onsite keyword for natural SERPS.

The only reason I suggested using some less expensive keywords is to get google looking at your campaign. If you have some niche keywords that cost 25 cents you will get impressions and clicks.

I think a campaign needs a week or two for G to take it seriously. I have found this for campaigns I have done. I also paused my entire campaign for two months or so a while back as a test. I found that it took about 3 months until I was getting the clicks and impressions I originally was.

Two weeks is a reasonable time frame however, for getting data or even generating money from a campaign.

Did that answer your question?

vangogh
07-20-2011, 02:20 PM
Yep. I think I so. You're suggesting the less expensive keywords to make sure you at least know enough not to break the bank in a few days and also because you think Google needs a couple of weeks before it really shows your keywords. Is that basically right?

I'd disagree with that last part. Once you're in the system your ads should show up nearly immediately. I don't think Google needs a couple weeks. Maybe for some sites it can take longer, but I think most people see the results within a few minutes.

I understand going slowly with AdWords, but assuming you know you're way around well enough to not break the budget in an hour or two, I think you'd sooner look for the more generic keywords with broadmatch in order to collect better and quicker data. If you go after the niche keywords then you'll spend less, but you aren't going to collect data about keywords in general. You'd be limiting the keywords to that one niche. It's something you can do if you're looking to research that niche though.

billbenson
07-20-2011, 05:31 PM
Not quite VG. I'm suggesting that it works with an active campaign better than a brand new campaign. Toss up a couple of ads with inexpensive keywords, but ones that will get impressions to create an active campaign. Then in a week or two add the ads and keywords for the test ads for generating keywords lists.

Adwords does seem to have a small sandboxing sort of period at the beginning. I'd prefer to call it settling. It happens much faster in adwords than in SERPS, but it does seem to exist in my experience. I've noticed this on new campaigns and also on existing campaigns as evidenced by impressions going up and cpc going down over extended periods of time with no changes to them.

vangogh
07-21-2011, 11:25 AM
My suggestion comes from the idea that you don't yet know the keywords to use in the campaign. You can't really run a campaign with inexpensive keywords until you know what the keywords are.

I disagree that there's a sandboxing period. It's possible your ad may not appear right away, but I think it's more to do with the specifics of your ad, your site, your existing AdWords account, etc, than there's an automatic waiting period for ads to appear.

billbenson
07-21-2011, 03:49 PM
I disagree that there's a sandboxing period. It's possible your ad may not appear right away, but I think it's more to do with the specifics of your ad, your site, your existing AdWords account, etc, than there's an automatic waiting period for ads to appear.
Note, I said I didn't like the word sandboxing and preferred "settling" which is exactly what you describe. When you put up anything on the web, adwords or a page, its kind of like a first date. It takes a couple of dates for G to decide if you are a tramp, one night stand, very interesting as a friend, or the person G wants to date forever. Just because you are paying money in adwords, don't expect G to fall in love on the first date.

seolman
07-21-2011, 04:18 PM
Great discussion and nice article VG.

If one has the funds to do a PPC campaign I suggest they place tracking codes that will record how many visitors actually contacted you/bought your product and what keywords they used to get to your site. Having tracking code on the "Thanks for contacting us" or "Thanks for your order" is very helpful in learning what keywords bring the highest ROI. Google PPC has tools that enable you to track the flow of visitors to see if your landing pages are working well.

Simple example: Please tell me how many persons visit the "landing page" --> "signup page" --> "thank you for joining" page in that order.

One could also have say 2 or 3 variations of landing pages and signup pages to see which page results in more signups/sales.

vangogh
07-22-2011, 11:22 AM
Note, I said I didn't like the word sandboxing and preferred "settling" which is exactly what you describe.

Yeah, we're probably just going back and forth about semantics. Either way whether you can have an ad running in a day or in two weeks everything else still applies.

@Dave - Tracking code is a good thing to add. The more information we can collect the better the decisions we can make. If we're talking about running a profitable PPC campaign then testing ads and landing pages and combinations of the two is also a good idea.

By the way how have you been Dave?

seolman
07-22-2011, 11:41 AM
Doing well Steve thanks for asking. Over the past year we shifted our business model more toward white label programming/web development and have managed to land some good quality US based marketing firms. Put simply we are their web department - they manage the clients. I love it! :)

vangogh
07-22-2011, 12:41 PM
I like when I have arrangements like that too. Sometimes my client will be the marketing agency or another designer or developer. They just send me the work and I do it and they handle all the client relations and project management stuff.

greenoak
07-24-2011, 07:28 PM
Ive used the keyword tool..A COUPLE OF DIFFERENT ONES ACTUALLY....AND THEY ARE REALLY NEAT..ive known about them for several years.....and know lots and lots of keywords.....but not really the GOOD one im looking for...like i saID before the searches are all over the place...
do you recall where to try and look at another places keywords..? or is that bad?

vangogh
07-25-2011, 10:41 AM
the searches are all over the place

They'll always be all over the place. That's why the research is important. The keywords you're seeing people are finding you for are probably good ones to start optimizing for and using in ppc campaigns.

greenoak
07-25-2011, 04:09 PM
no, they are too small to put more effort into...i dont want to use those.....
. i need to find something a bit bigger and more general....if its even out there....
its so subtle what we offer...i cant quite get the right keyword...
how about the tool to find the words what other stores use? do you know about that?

vangogh
07-25-2011, 07:38 PM
The bigger and more general keywords probably aren't going to help you because they also come with much greater competition. Unless you have a lot of money to hire someone to do your seo or pay for the ads you're much better off focusing on those keywords and phrases that only send a little traffic. It takes time to rank well for competitive phrases. If you start by going after those "small" phrases you can get some traffic as you build toward the more general phrases.

Those smaller keywords and phrases are also much more targeted. Someone searching for something as general as antique is less likely to be looking to buy something than someone searching for a specific product. The specific product search may only occur once a month or even year, but it's still more likely to lead to a sale.

I'm not sure which tools you're referring to. Do you mean tools that show what other sites are bidding on in AdWords or tools to show what other sites are optimizing for the organic search results?

greenoak
07-25-2011, 08:49 PM
once i used a place that showed what search words were used to get to a site.... it wasnt about adwords...

we are in the top ten on google for a big general keyword...antiques indiana...
i dont see much value in working on rating better for doorknobs, ladders, oak china cabinet.... thats how teeny our search words are...dont you see that im saying the search words about our inventory are narrow and hardly repeated...
im looking for something else...if i find a worthy search i will gladly work on it....
i cant imagine trying to stand out in your field.... it must really be hard...there are so many of you on line... not somuch for my field...

vangogh
07-25-2011, 10:02 PM
I'm not sure which site you mean. There are some tools I know where you type a keyword or phrase along with a domain and the tool tells you where the domain ranks for the phrase. The tools are usually browser extensions or pay sites. Google's AdWord tool lets you type in a domain and it'll return a list of keyword suggestions for the domain. Could that be it?

What I'm saying with the keywords is not that would go after doorknobs, but you'd go after "antique doorknobs indiana" That may not get searched for a lot, but the person searching "antique doorknobs indiana" is giving a strong indication of what they want and are probably ready to buy something. If you show up there's a good chance you've made a sale. It's also probably easy to rank for the exact phrase. You might not have to do more than use the words a couple of times on a page.

With search traffic it's not just about picking one or two words or phrases. You generally want to get traffic for as many different words and phrases as possible. This last month my site received traffic for about 20,000 different keyword phrases. Most of those phrases probably only resulted in one person visiting, but when you add them all up it's a lot of traffic.

When I've suggested blogging to you it's because the next time a door knob comes in you can take a picture, post it to your blog and write a few sentences about why you found it interesting. That post will probably rank well for antique doorknob indiana without you having to do much beyond publishing the post and making sure to add doorknob in the post's title. If your blog is on the same domain as the rest of your site it helps the overall site rank better. You could publish a daily interesting find of the day post that wouldn't take more than 5 or 10 minutes. Do that for a few months and you're site will be ranking for all sorts of good things.

Business Attorney
07-25-2011, 10:17 PM
no, they are too small to put more effort into...i dont want to use those.....
. i need to find something a bit bigger and more general....if its even out there....
its so subtle what we offer...i cant quite get the right keyword...
how about the tool to find the words what other stores use? do you know about that?

Ann, if you can't quite find the "right" keyword, then it is highly questionable whether the people searching for you will think of that keyword either. In this case, I don't think your Holy Grail exists.

When I set up my own attorney website 5 years ago, I set it up on the URL "Illinois Business Attorney [dot] com" I thought that was a perfect search term. In most SERPs, my site ranks #1 for that term but Google Analytics shows that the term doesn't generate the most visits. In fact, it is not even in the top 10. There are many ahead of it that are more specific, several of which I didn't even optimize for.

During the last six months, Google Analytics said that people came to my site using 2,854 different search terms. If I concentrated on the very best search term and TRIPLED the draw from it, I would have raised my visits by only 2%. Yes, the top search term was only about 1% of the total.

I have seen similar results on my LLC website, with much higher numbers. There, in the last six months 76,394 different searches led people to my site. Interestingly, although Google Webmaster Tools says that my site appeared in the SERPs most often for the term "limited liability company" (no surprise there), the most visits to my site came from a term that had only one-third as many searches. In both searches, my site appeared around 4th in the SERP. The SERPs for the general term included sources like Wikipedia and the IRS, so my guess is that people looking for general information headed to those sites. In the search for more specific terms, my site was still in spot 3 or 4 but the click through rate was astronomical.

I suspect that you would find similar results. Someone looking for "Indiana antiques" may be looking for shops in Vincennes or Bloomington and pass your site by even if it is #1 in the SERPs. Someone looking for "antique door knobs Indiana" on the other hand is probably much more likely to follow through to the site that pops up at the top of the SERPs.

You've been on the web long enough that your own keyword history offers a treasure trove of information. While the keyword tools available were very useful when I was starting and are still good for finding new ideas for articles, I find that the most relevant and valuable information is my very own real data.

greenoak
07-25-2011, 10:18 PM
im hoping facebook posts will do that too...our ranking and growth online has probably been thru real data...i like to get a lot of actually relevant data on all our parts..called organic growth i guess...and we are up in the top for antiques so i take it its working...... i do think about the words a lot....this week we sold a 1000 piece from a blog post, on jons blog...we have 3 blogs..and maybe another piece.. and 700 from a facebook post... totally directly...

billbenson
07-25-2011, 10:35 PM
So, a question then VG, going along with Ann's antique doorknob phrase. Ann's not going to write a page about antique door knobs. Perhaps a shopping cart sort of entry if she had a shopping cart site though. So, on a page that is about some piece of furniture, you add the phrase antique door knobs in a couple of places, perhaps with a <strong> or something else that gives it a little emphasis. But the page is really not about antique door knobs.

Over time, she gets some searches for the antique knobs which rank well. These sort of searches help move her up in the ranks for the entire site???

-----------------------------------------
The above is a question. How do you use long tail search terms in a site like Ann's as you certainly aren't going to write a page on these. I'm not talking about Adwords.

vangogh
07-26-2011, 12:21 AM
Nice explanation David. That's exactly what I was trying to say. Often the more generic keywords are done by people looking for information and are earlier in the buying cycle. It's quite possible someone seeing Ann's site after searching "antiques indiana" may visit the her store. Where they're physically located will probably have a lot to do with that. The person searching "antique door knobs Indiana" is showing a much more specific intent and is much more likely closer to buying and would probably drive a little further to get that door knob.

Another point is doorknob vs door knob. We don't know what words people are going to use so we can't cherry pick a few to optimize for. The results are also now different for different people now so ranking #1 doesn't mean as much as it once did, because you may rank #1 for one person and #5 for another.

The best way to gain search traffic is to cast a wide net. It's no longer about focusing on a small group of prime phrases. You want to be able to rank for as many different phrases as possible.


But the page is really not about antique door knobs.

I'm assuming it's not a very competitive phrase. It may be. I don't really know. Assuming it isn't competitive you really don't need to do much to rank. This page isn't about "ksdjlndsaouP" but no other page is about it either. Copy and paste "ksdjlndsaouP" into Google in a couple of days and see if this page ranks #1. It probably will, because it's likely now the only page on the internet using that nonsensical combination of letters. It won't shock me if this page is ranking #1 for it in a couple of hours.


These sort of searches help move her up in the ranks for the entire site???

While search engines rank pages they're sophisticated enough to understand entire sites. More quality pages can help give a site authority on a subject and help it be more trusted. Also when pages rank well they often attract links and links to one page of your site are also more links into your site as a whole.


How do you use long tail search terms in a site like Ann's as you certainly aren't going to write a page on these.

Above I suggested how you would do it as a blog post. Here it is again.


the next time a door knob comes in you can take a picture, post it to your blog and write a few sentences about why you found it interesting.

If Ann does that a while she can later set something up to let her customers upload images and write a few words about them. My suggestion would be to have them send images of their homes and yards showing off things they bought at Ann's store. Have the customer write a sentence or two when they upload. As more people do this it builds a strong sense of community on the site and should generate some comments.

The initial sentence or two and the comments will in total end up using words like door knobs (assuming a door knob image) as well as variations. Then the page is able to rank for a variety of phrases centered on the theme door knob. Assuming the site is designed well it will naturally mention the word Indiana in often enough. The name of the store takes care of the word antique, and as long as the content stays on topic most of the time search engines can easily figure out it's a site for an antique store in Indiana.

After the post's been up awhile you check your analytics and see what actual phrases are being used to find your site. In time the post showing off people's door knobs probably ranks for a variety of similar phrases. At first maybe it's phrases like "polished chrome antique door knobs" Over time she notices a phrase like "chrome antique door knobs" is sending traffic. Then it's "antique door knobs"

One reason I often recommend blogs is because it's a place to create new content. It's provides a good way to use keywords without having to stuff them into sales copy. You don't need to make every page on your site sales copy in order to sell. Different web pages have different functions. The same thing happens offline. You do things to get people into the store and then once in the store direct them to products.

greenoak
07-26-2011, 09:09 AM
i think i will keep on doing what im doing...mentioning doorknobs and dozens of other minor things a lot....all that kind of thing is on my site...but i wont be putting any extra effort on it...we have hundreds of things at the doorknob level...
i will still be looking for the magic words for my target customers....if i find that i will be willing to work hard on it....
and vg....what you suggested about the customers uploading pictures is what we have been really focussed on for about a month....its a great idea imho....and i will be doing it on facebook.... maybe an album..or something weekly....if i can figure out the best way to get the customers to do it....

vangogh
07-26-2011, 10:41 AM
i will still be looking for the magic words for my target customers.

There are no magic words. That's the whole point.


and i will be doing it on facebook

Good for Facebook then. Not so good for your site.

billbenson
07-26-2011, 11:11 AM
@VG - thanks, thats pretty much what I thought. Just looking for a bit of conformation.

Ann, do this: Take your monthly keywords, stick them in an excel file each month along with the number of hits. Thats ten minutes a month. When you are working on your site or blog, slip in the ones with a few hits as you see fit.

To paraphrase VG (correct me if I'm wrong VG), over time google will see more target hits and probably elevate your site in the serps and give you more authority status. You are only adding a couple of mintues to a blog post or page you are writing. Plus in the end you will have a huge list of keywords you can draw from.

vangogh
07-26-2011, 11:38 AM
Pretty much. And the reality is it doesn't have to be hard to do or take a lot of time either. It has to be set up initially. In Ann's case that would mean moving her blog to the same domain as her site and posting a few times to get a feel for how it will work. After that we're talking 5-10 minutes per post. One person could spend an hour a week and the blog could be updated every day. After a time the system could be switched so it's customers publishing pictures and posts.

greenoak
07-26-2011, 12:17 PM
sounds good if...if i thought a blog was worth my time...or if i were doing a blog seriously which im not....i was doing my blog for fun..i might keep at it a little for these seo reasons....but that was never my blog goal...

i think im on the right track by putting lots and lots of releveant words on my site...which i have always done..... and not worry about working them harder....
then if i ever do find the really good key words for my new customers ... the good general words im searching for ...then i will work hard on that...
.yesterday on google.. we were # 2 in indiana antiques.... with just organic work and growth that we have always done for our web presence...so i think my way is working pretty well... i just need the new idea /words...
the magic words that antiques and shabby used to be for us....
sounds good bill...i can do that...thanks....but what do i want authority on? thats my delimma...i dont know the right words for those new customers...i might not even be using them at all...
ann

billbenson
07-26-2011, 12:47 PM
Ann, an authority site is one that Google likes as a reference site. Wikipedia is about the most well known. Think about it. Search for Bob Dylan autobiography or whatever. Wiki will usually be at the top.

By continually making posts about stuff related to antiques, you can become an authority site over time for antiques. That is where your blog comes in. Whether its once a month or once a day, if you continuously make posts your site will grow in useful information and G will like you better. This is very much a long term strategy, but in SEO there aren't very many good short term strategies. And yes, this can be a post on antique door knobs.

I bet your competitors aren't doing this!

greenoak
07-26-2011, 06:20 PM
like ive said , im not interested in antiques at all in this search .im already there if they search that word...BUT..my new customers arent into antiques..... thats my problem!!!! ive mentioned this new reality in our business quite a bit.... getting more well known in antiques isnt important to me at all...we are already #2 in indiana on that on google....
.
now i need to get that good in my new retail world... ....and i would love to hear some ideas on that and what that world searches for...all i know is they are real happy with us when they find us...i know you dont know that style world enough to tell me the words... but its what im really searching for...
when i rediscover how to see the main words of other businesses im hoping i will be on the right track... ive been there!!! but dang , cant recall where it was

nophin
08-02-2011, 10:12 AM
Good tip. I have a question though, can you just set up a landing page and no other content or do you have to have multiple pages of content for Google to approve you PPC campaign?

vangogh
08-02-2011, 10:57 AM
I don't think there's a specific rule against a single landing page (though don't hold me to that). However, I would think Google would see your businesses in a better light if there's more of a site. If your single landing page is going to send people to a product through an affiliate link it most likely won't be approved and may get your account banned.

alphadore
08-26-2011, 05:20 AM
thanks for sharing. I came across an interesting article about keyword optimization recently and it was written that apparently keyword Dog beds is searched 3 times more than keyword Dog bed. I guess we need to be mindful of the searched terms on the internet while optimizing our business. Even though the keywords may still mean the same, but these little tricks make the difference.

billbenson
08-26-2011, 01:51 PM
You want to try to use all the variations including misspellings. Your site stats are a good way to find new ones.

vangogh
08-26-2011, 07:36 PM
@Deniz - Was this the article (http://www.seomoz.org/blog/6-keyword-research-mistakes-you-might-be-making) you read? It mentions dog kennels and not dog beds, but I think it's talking about the same basic thing you mean. Part of me is thinking there was another similar article on a different blog, but I can't find it.

alphadore
08-27-2011, 10:23 AM
@Deniz - Was this the article (http://www.seomoz.org/blog/6-keyword-research-mistakes-you-might-be-making) you read? It mentions dog kennels and not dog beds, but I think it's talking about the same basic thing you mean. Part of me is thinking there was another similar article on a different blog, but I can't find it.

Hi Van gogh, that is not the article I was referring to. It is a presentation document from Don K Crowther from his attendance in S.M.A.R.T. series. If you are interested, I can send you the presentation.

vangogh
08-29-2011, 10:57 AM
Sure. I'll take a read. I knew the article I linked to didn't quite mention the same keywords, but it did seem similar enough to ask.

Ellan
08-31-2011, 02:47 AM
Wow, I really learned a lot~ I have to say choosing keywords is a really hard work.

vangogh
08-31-2011, 10:51 AM
Yep. It's not as easy as many people think. Most brainstorm a list of 50 or so words and phrases and think their keyword research is done, when in reality it's just beginning.

scottish
10-13-2011, 04:23 AM
local businesses won't really profit from online marketing as they are only able to sell their services to people in that town. You should have a keyword for your business and the name of your town so people can find you in google.

Joe's Plumbing in London
www. londonplumbers .co.uk
keywords: london plumbers

Mike's learn to drive school in Boston
www. Learntodriveinboston .com
keywords: learn to drive boston

vangogh
10-13-2011, 11:47 AM
local businesses won't really profit from online marketing as they are only able to sell their services to people in that town.

People who are local to a specific town are still online so online marketing does still reach them. Also reaching people beyond the local market helps bring links into the site, which then helps you become more visible locally.

MostHeather
10-24-2011, 08:52 AM
..and extending your reach might also attract customers from other places that are within driving distance in the case of a "bricks and mortar" store. I know many people are willing to get in their car and travel for an hour or so with no problems, especially if they're motivated to buy a product that they want or need..

vangogh
10-24-2011, 01:17 PM
True. People might also visit your locale or have friends or relatives living there. It makes sense for a local business to focus more on local marketing, but that doesn't mean they should ignore a more global market and it definitely doesn't mean they shouldn't do something because it might happen to make your most visible outside your immediate vicinity. A lot of the things that make your more visible to a wider geographic area end up helping you locally as well.

MostHeather
10-24-2011, 02:23 PM
Or you might add new products and services that extend your keywords, too. I think that personalized search makes it much harder to judge results on KW rankings because not everyone is seeing the same thing like they used to in 2004.

vangogh
10-24-2011, 10:10 PM
Yep again. I also add new content based on the phrases driving traffic to my site. If you look at all the keyword phrases sender you traffic you can easily see themes and if you ranking for some phrases around a theme it generally means you can rank for other phrases around the same theme. Rank for enough of those different phrases and in time you can rank for the generic theme as well.

Personal results don't bother me. They change how you have to look at ranking since where a page ranks will vary more than it used to. For awhile I've looked less to ranking for specific phrases and more toward the themes of phrases sending me traffic.

MostHeather
10-25-2011, 01:41 PM
That's a great tactic. Sort of like building a "phrase pyramid" of sorts. I think that a solid on-page focus that offers other related resources is another good way of building up a solid foundation on which to build this said "phrase pyramid." It's like building a house- you have to do it one brick at a time..

vangogh
10-26-2011, 01:47 AM
I like the term "phrase pyramid" and building things one brick at a time. It's a good analogy.

With ranking for keywords some of it comes down to how much of an authority search engines see your site having about a subject. Early on they may not see you as an authority on widgets or even green widgets, but you might be one of the few people talking about recycling green widgets and so your page ranks well and sends traffic. Seeing that you write another page about the environmental benefits of green widgets and again you rank and get traffic. You write a few more pages about green widgets and being environmentally friendly and you start to become an expert on the subject. Now you expand to another topic about green widgets and do the same. Little by little you're building your authority on the topic of green widgets.

Once you become an authority on green widgets you can create content about other kinds of widgets. Ideally you've been writing about blue and yellow widgets in the same way all along and have become an authority on several different colored widgets.

MostHeather
10-26-2011, 03:12 PM
I'm glad that you liked my terminology and analogy. Sometimes it's easy to forget how it might take some time to develop websites because of the instantaneous way that the Internet operates.

One brick at a time, my friend - one brick at a time! :)

SnellExperts
11-02-2011, 06:25 PM
I'm glad that you liked my terminology and analogy. Sometimes it's easy to forget how it might take some time to develop websites because of the instantaneous way that the Internet operates.

One brick at a time, my friend - one brick at a time! :)

Yeah websites can be very time consuming. I have been working on one for close to 9 months now and I think we are still a few months away from launch date :( But I would rather take my time to make sure it is amazing when it launches rather than half incomplete.

vangogh
11-03-2011, 02:37 AM
I would rather take my time to make sure it is amazing when it launches rather than half incomplete.

I'm the same way. Not that I always end up with something amazing, but that I do my best to try to end up that way.

Business Attorney
11-03-2011, 12:17 PM
I would rather take my time to make sure it is amazing when it launches rather than half incomplete.

That's usually been my preference, too, but there is an article on the cover of the October 2011 issue of Inc. called "Creating The Lean Startup (http://www.inc.com/magazine/201110/eric-ries-usability-testing-product-development.html)" that makes a number of very interesting points.

When I started my current law firm in 2008, my partners and all I had existing practices. A "soft" launch of our new firm was not a viable option. We had to tell clients, referral sources and other professionals where to find us from day 1. It was more important to have an acceptable website up immediately rather than spend weeks tweaking the language, finding a better photo, etc... Since a website should be an evolving creation, getting it started sometimes is more important than getting it perfect.

KristineS
11-03-2011, 12:21 PM
Yes, getting a website up and live is important, but I think there are differences between business websites, which are mostly information and e-commerce websites which are trying to sell something. An information website can go up in pieces, since really all you're doing is supplying information to potential customers. An e-commerce website on the other hand, needs to have several vital pieces in place or it won't convert visitors into customers. So someone putting up an e-commerce site may want to take more time to make sure all their ducks are in a row, since the site may not do what it's supposed to do, make buyers out of visitors, if it is only half done.

Business Attorney
11-03-2011, 02:16 PM
Kristine, I agree there is a big difference. Certainly with an e-commerce site it needs to be fairly complete and bug free.

On the other hand, unless you are doing a big marketing push, the number of people who see your website during the first month or two are probably fairly few in number and a very small portion of your target market. The information you pick up from putting a less-than-perfect site online may more than offset the loss of a few visitors who are turned off by the roughness of the site. It's not going to be true in every case, but it is simply something to consider.

KristineS
11-03-2011, 04:31 PM
Kristine, I agree there is a big difference. Certainly with an e-commerce site it needs to be fairly complete and bug free.

On the other hand, unless you are doing a big marketing push, the number of people who see your website during the first month or two are probably fairly few in number and a very small portion of your target market. The information you pick up from putting a less-than-perfect site online may more than offset the loss of a few visitors who are turned off by the roughness of the site. It's not going to be true in every case, but it is simply something to consider.

You're right David, it is something to consider. I would agree that there is value to having a soft launch and doing some real world testing before you go do a big marketing push. I just think that e-commerce site owners need to be aware that a soft launch and a real world debugging could cause issues with potential customers. Of course, if you handle things properly, and let those who are visiting the site know that you're still in the process of adding the finishing touches, and then fix any problems brought to your attention quickly, it might not matter that much.

vangogh
11-04-2011, 02:53 AM
On the other hand if no one is really seeing it that first month, the delay to make it better probably doesn't hurt. I think there are a number of factors involved. How important is it to get to market right now? How incomplete is the site? The site does need to meet certain minimums or it'll turn away those early visitors and may not get a second chance to get them back.

At the other end you can't sit back and wait until the site is perfect, because it never will be. Most people won't notice the small imperfection here or there and all the time the site isn't live it doesn't have any potential to generate business. There is a time when you have to say it's ready and launch.

It's not always an easy question to answer for when to launch. There are businesses that rushed to market with a poor site that was panned and they never recovered and there are business that waited too long and missed their opportunity while someone else launched and took over the market. Part of being successful is knowing when it's the right time to act.

Business Attorney
11-04-2011, 10:14 AM
VG, you're right about all of your comments. The concept described in the article was not about rushing through and putting out a poor product, nor was the alternative waiting and putting up a perfect product. It was about the areas in-between. That is, not pouring large amounts of time and money into features without seeing what the market is really looking for. It's not about a formula that can apply in every situation, it is just something to think about.

vangogh
11-04-2011, 02:15 PM
Funny. I completely missed the link to the article. I was mainly responding to your and Kristine's post.

I agree that somewhere in the middle is the right approach. You definitely need to have a good product on launch, but at the same time there's no reason to try and cram in every feature in the world.

You can look at Apple and Google in the context of when to launch.

Google's practice has been to launch everything as beta and see what sticks with users. If anything the've leaned toward to the rush to market side and because of that some of their products haven't gone anywhere. Take Wave for example. I think it could have been a very useful product for certain things, but it was released without any thought to how real people would use it. Had Google spent more time working out some things it might still be with us.

Apple on the other hand tends to lean toward the other side where the foundation of their product is concerned. They typically release something that may not have every feature imaginable, but it's usually something where the underlying structure has been made as perfect as possible. Steve Jobs famously rejected 2 very close to ready iPhones before approving the 3rd. It's hard to imagine Google taking that approach.

Both companies are clearly successful though, which shows there's some latitude in the in-between.

On a smaller scale there's a training course for creating training courses called Teaching Sells. Brian Clark of CopyBlogger fame is one of the people behind it. The approach they teach for creating the courses is to not have it all finished when launching. Put up the basic framework for the course and have early parts of it finished. Then open the doors to a small group of people. As those people work through the course learn what it is they want from the course and then produce the content. That way you let the market shape the product.

vangogh
11-08-2011, 02:50 AM
Over the weekend Seth Godin published a post titled, When "minimal viable product" doesn't work (http://sethgodin.typepad.com/seths_blog/2011/11/when-minimal-viable-product-doesnt-work.html) that fits this discussion. He's talking more about software than a website, but I think his points still apply.

His basic argument for why this approach might not work is that when you first launch there's no one there using the product, no community around it, and so no feedback on which to improve the product. Because it will take considerable time to get the feedback you may either give up or move on to something else before you ever learn what you hoped to learn.

He's suggesting that launching minimally is going to work best when you already have a significantly sized user base from which to draw in order to get that initial community around your product.