Does Your Site Make These Copywriting Errors?

[vangogh]

Found the article, Five Copywriting Errors That Can Ruin A Company’s Website (http://www.smashingmagazine.com/2011/06/29/five-copywriting-errors-that-can-ruin-a-company-website/) and thought I'd share.

A lot of businesses make all of these mistakes and probably all of us make at least one of them.

1. Writing Inwardly - focusing on you instead of your customer
2. Burying The Lead - not communicating why a page is important immediately
3. Mediocre Meta Material - failing to write a good page title and description
4. Saying Too Much - nuff said
5. Weak Or No Calls To Action - not making it clear what your visitors should do next

Naturally the article has a more details. It's definitely worth a read as I guarantee you're making one of the mistakes above and correcting them will very likely lead to a more effective websites.

[greenoak]

those are good ones!!! with lots of applications in other advertizing too......

[vangogh]

Oh yeah. You could apply this to more than just writing copy for a website. The tips are perfect for writing ad copy too.

[ProCopyTactics]

These mistakes are so common. I think that explains why so few websites are consistently making money online.

[greenoak]

so few making it sure does seem true in my observations.... i dont know many at all in SMALL companies who are making even a good supplementary income from online saLES.......i know tons who took the popular advice and tried it tho.........
i think what they picked to sell and what price and who they targeted is as important or more than how they wrote their copy........

[vangogh]

i think what they picked to sell and what price and who they targeted is as important or more than how they wrote their copy

I think all those things are important. Making a sale is the result of a doing a number of things. I wouldn't underestimate copy though. On a website your copy is your salesperson. The difference between good and bad copy is the difference between a helpful salesperson and one who's never there to help the customer or even worse be rude to the customer.

Imagine that you have a great product, priced it well, and targeted the right person, but once customers arrive in the store your salespeople don't answer questions about whether or not you have the product. Instead they talk about some random event from their lives. Sounds unrealistic in real life, but it's similar to burying the lead. Not having calls-to-action might be the equivalent of hiding the cash register in some back room and not telling customers where it is.

[greenoak]

I HEAR YOU..and thats why i try and soak up as much good info as possible..... but there is probably more of the opposite....bad idea, bad price, bad product, bad judgement of the market, ignorance of the competition... ,,,,, those are killers and you can see it all around.... on line and brick and mortar.... some with maybe great seo and copywriting....i always think your basic idea is the most imprtant thing.... probably because i wholesale and see the sad end to so many ideas...
like you could do everything right on myspace for your archetectural business and it wouldnt work....

[Patrysha]

I disagree that there can be "great seo and copyrighting" on a bad product/service...because the process of developing those will reveal the flaws along the way. You can't get great copywriting without knowing the market, you can't get great seo without knowing your market...you can't begin to write until you know what the main competitors are...you can't use those tools effectively without the foundation...they can't be defined as great without the foundation.

[greenoak]

WELL I GUESS I SHOULD HAVE Said it looked good and they paid a lot..i dont see your point at all...i know lots of places with nice webs that failed...people have to like your actual thing or service...it isnt all marketing... and some with good seo and good copy are floundering or just going like turtles....

[vangogh]

I think Patrysha is saying that in order to do good seo and marketing you need a good product, etc. Also the act of working on seo and marketing will reveal whether or not your product is a good one and if not help you make it better.

[greenoak]

i got what she was saying i just see a lot of evidence that its not right.... the ideal would be a good product and good seo and marketing...... for sure..
but there are all kinds of combinations out there.... .
most businsesses fail and marketing and seo arent in the top reasons from what ive read...and im pretty sure that applies to internet businesses too...

[vangogh]

Oh got'cha. Guess I misunderstood what you were saying. I think we all agree the ideal is to have good marketing on a good product and that bad marketing on a bad product isn't going anywhere. In the other two case I think the evidence usually points to good marketing on a bad product selling more than bad marketing on a good product.

A good product sells after it's been bought. It leads to word of mouth and repeat business. You need the marketing though to get the first sale though. I actually think most business that fail do so because they don't do marketing well. Keep in mind that things like finding a market are part of marketing. Even choice in product is part of marketing.

Here's a definition of marketing I found


The management process through which goods and services move from concept to the customer. As a practice, it consists in coordination of four elements called 4P's: (1) identification, selection, and development of a product, (2) determination of its price, (3) selection of a distribution channel to reach the customer's place, and (4) development and implementation of a promotional strategy.

I think we all separate the product from marketing at times, but it really is part of the marketing.

[KristineS]

I think I tend to say too much sometimes. I'm definitely developing a distinctive style, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but I think sometimes I get caught up in the elegance of the writing and don't think so much about what it needs to do.

[Business Attorney]

I disagree that there can be "great seo and copyrighting" on a bad product/service...because the process of developing those will reveal the flaws along the way. You can't get great copywriting without knowing the market, you can't get great seo without knowing your market...you can't begin to write until you know what the main competitors are...you can't use those tools effectively without the foundation...they can't be defined as great without the foundation.

I guess it depends on what you mean by "great." People can, and do, create highly effective marketing campaigns that sell bad products. The flaws may have become known to them in the process of writing or they may have conveniently ignored the flaws, but the writers have nonetheless written the materials that move the goods.

Certainly con artists from the beginning of time have done that. Newspapers in the 1890s are full of advertisements for remedies that, even then, the promoters often knew were ineffective "snake oil". Today, you can see it all over the internet, from miracle medicines (100 years later and we still fall for that stuff) to ebooks that offer a few pages of stale advice for the "TODAY ONLY!" price of $19.95.

So, if "great" copywriting means that the message is highly successfully of triggering the response that the seller of the product is looking for, then it is certainly possible to create great copy for a bad product.

If great copywriting means accurately describing a product or service in an objective manner so that the consumer can effectively make his or her own decision based on a full vetting of all the relevant facts, then I think you will have to look very hard to find great copywriting, even for very good products. I doubt that a copywriter for an expensive sports car would last very long if he or she pointed out the high maintenance costs, low gas mileage, poor handling on wet pavement or other drawbacks.

With SEO, I think it is also possible to do good (maybe not great) SEO for a bad product, but unlike copywriting, which is entirely within the control of the person with the pen or the keyboard, effective SEO in the long run includes a component that is outside the control of the SEO consultant - incoming links from authoritative sources. With a truly bad product or service, it is going to be nearly impossible to get and keep incoming links from reputable sources. The SEO consultant may be able to get a large quantity of low-quality links because in many cases the websites on which those links are placed exercise little or no control over the links. The link could be pointing to Cars.com or Shady Bob's Used Cars, the low-quality website typically doesn't care or simply doesn't have the ability to police user-loaded content. But Forbes, the New York Times or CNN are not going to point to Shady Bob in an article.

To that extent, I think I agree that SEO for a bad product probably cannot be defined as "great."

[SmallBusinessAdvice]

Found the article, Five Copywriting Errors That Can Ruin A Company’s Website (http://www.smashingmagazine.com/2011/06/29/five-copywriting-errors-that-can-ruin-a-company-website/) and thought I'd share.

A lot of businesses make all of these mistakes and probably all of us make at least one of them.

1. Writing Inwardly - focusing on you instead of your customer


I thought everything should be about me. Seriously, many companies forget this while marketing and making policies for their small business. Customers don't want to hear about policies, but what you can do for them.

[C0ldf1re]

... I guarantee you're making one of the mistakes above...

Without even seeing my website, you guarantee that I am making a mistake!

How insufferably arrogant you are!




(And you are perfectly right, too! The article was both witty and informative. Thanks for the link.)

[greenoak]

good points david... thats what i see all over the place...
my point was kind of from the other side.... about giving too much credit, or responsibility , to marketing or copywriting ..take me.... we had a record store...the suppliers changed and the sellers changed....our size store was left out in the cold....the support we had from the companies was gone...they wanted to be in the big chains...mainly a big return policy changed which was a big foundation of small stores daily business....then a discounter came to town and undercut our price....so it was over..thousands of record stores closed down...it wasnt just us...
... could copywriting have fixed this?.... or marketing ? i respect both but they would be weak soldiers in that fight for survival... that was my point....i just think its sad when a business is going down for big reasons and looks to marketing instead of a huge different problem....and there are so many marketers out there wanting to sell to them....and they are great marketers!!!lol....
and the idea of the copywriter or marketer knowing whats best for a business is naive, and not their job anyway... .... they should know how to present the owners idea the best way and sell it... ....but they arent going to know much about the actual business.... how could they take the time to actually absorb and figure out the clients business? that would be a huge job......
i think of point #1....writing inwardly.... all the t ime........ and try not to do it....its hard tho... .... good reminder...

[Spider]

....To that extent, I think I agree that SEO for a bad product probably cannot be defined as "great."What is the purpose of seo? - SEO stands for search engine optimization, according to the little pop-up, even though that is a misnomer - we do not have the power to optimize any search engine (unless we own one.) What we try to do is optimize our pages to score well against certain criteria as measured by the search engines. SEO, in fact, stands for webpage optimization. And that is all. If the objective is to be listed on the first page of search engines' results pages for certain search terms, then achieving that objective must be 'great seo,' surely. It has nothing to do with the product.

If you hit hole-in-one on the golf course, that is a great shot, even if you are otherwise the worst golfer in the world.

Mind you, I don't think SEO has much to do with copywriting, though.

[Patrysha]

... could copywriting have fixed this?.... or marketing ?
No, not in cases of average little stores...in general it was a huge media shift that ended an era - but there are still some fabulous independent record stores out there, only most of them died, not all. In all those cases it wasn't marketing as most people think of it but the harnessing of all their uniqueness to build a following that continued to support them. Shopping in any of these stores was and continues to be an experience.


i just think its sad when a business is going down for big reasons and looks to marketing instead of a huge different problem....

What I think is sad is when a small business thinks that everyone will know they are there just because it's a small town and refuse to advertise or market...until it comes to their Going Out of Business Sale...

but they arent going to know much about the actual business.... how could they take the time to actually absorb and figure out the clients business? that would be a huge job......
It is a huge job in some ways, but in others it's not. There are more things similar between businesses than differences...and you don't have to absorb every little detail. You do have to learn a lot with each new client --less if you've worked with similar clients before, more if it's a new area, but there's always specifics to learn. And you can't go in thinking you have all the answers, you go in listening first...and then you draw from what you know and combined it with what you've learned from listening to come up with solutions to the specific problems for that particular business.

[greenoak]

i didnt think everyone would get my point....but if someone out there is starting a business i wouldnt advise making marketing your top priority.... ...thats a part and tons of people wanting to market for you will tell you they know all about everything ..they will inundate you with all kinds of stuff ...
...but most businesses fail and if you want to make a living you better get all your parts besides marketing as right for your market as you can....
i would never go to a marketer to figure out my business....no more than i would go to a dentist to get my hair done....and i probably spend about as much on marketing as anyone on here.... thousands of $$$ every year...i love marketing and totally work at it....but if i have the wrong stuff in my store its not going to work....
and patrysha, a record store here would have been a disaster...we are a poor town....im so glad we figured out something else..and are now a regional business and selling to people with homes not kids on an allowance...does anyone even buy records anymore?

[C0ldf1re]

... i wouldnt advise making marketing your top priority...

It depends how you define the word, "Marketing". If you use it to mean only things like advertising and Public Relations, then of course you need to plan a viable business before marketing.

But one major aspect of marketing (as I was taught) was Market Analysis, or assessing where you can profitably fit into the marketplace. E.g. if we have skills producing plastic widgets, would we be able to sell them at a profit? Alternatively, if we already have skills selling to Seniors, what product could we sell them at a profit?

[vangogh]

People can, and do, create highly effective marketing campaigns that sell bad products. The flaws may have become known to them in the process of writing or they may have conveniently ignored the flaws, but the writers have nonetheless written the materials that move the goods.

Yep. People buy for many reasons beyond the product itself. A good copywriter or marketer understands those universal reasons we buy things and convince us to buy things we might not otherwise buy. If the product is bad the word will get out and the sales techniques won't last long term. Still a good salesperson or market can sell most anything.


Without even seeing my website

How do you know I didn't see your site first. :)


but if someone out there is starting a business i wouldnt advise making marketing your top priority

Marketing should absolutely be your top priority. Look again at the definition of marketing (http://www.businessdictionary.com/definition/marketing.html) from BusinessDictionary.com.


The management process through which goods and services move from concept to the customer. As a practice, it consists in coordination of four elements called 4P's: (1) identification, selection, and development of a product, (2) determination of its price, (3) selection of a distribution channel to reach the customer's place, and (4) development and implementation of a promotional strategy.

It includes determining your product and price and how you'll distribute the product. You seem to be looking at marketing only as the last step of promotion, but that's only one step in the process.


a record store here would have been a disaster...we are a poor town

That's marketing. Seeing that a record store wouldn't work in your area is the first part of marketing. If you ignore marketing at the start then you open the record store and your business fails. Marketing is a lot more than advertising. It's important because it leads you to choosing a product and business with the potential for success. Marketing should be a top priority from the moment you have an idea for a business.


But one major aspect of marketing (as I was taught) was Market Analysis, or assessing where you can profitably fit into the marketplace. E.g. if we have skills producing plastic widgets, would we be able to sell them at a profit? Alternatively, if we already have skills selling to Seniors, what product could we sell them at a profit?

Exactly. Marketing is so much more than promotion. That's the last step in the marketing process. Marketing sets your entire business strategy.

[greenoak]

to me marketing is more what coldfire says....the other decisins and choices arent what most folks call marketing ....the broader definition could include about everything...from paiint color to buying trends......they are more like the owner decisions and then he hires the marketer to present the ideas the best to the buyers........ ..i guess we all have different definitions.....and i sure agree all that is important...
...for wide store decisions , IF YOU NEEDED HELP I WOULD THINK OF A consultant with big experience in your exact field ...that would be more in order than a marketer...meaning a consultant who could come in a study the situation and the numbers and come in a nd actually see the business in action and then go deeper than good general advice... someone like jon shallert if you are in retail......he has deep retail knowledge and exerience...and thats his main thng......

[Patrysha]

i didnt think everyone would get my point....but if someone out there is starting a business i wouldnt advise making marketing your top priority....
Then you are giving bad advice because you misunderstand the term marketing and only apply it to a very small dimension of marketing by only looking and considering the tip of the iceberg rather than realizing there is much much more under the surface than on the top.


and i probably spend about as much on marketing as anyone on here.... thousands of $$$ every year...i love marketing and totally work at it....but if i have the wrong stuff in my store its not going to work....
No, you spend money on advertising and promotion. That is not the entirety of marketing...bringing in the wrong product is also marketing. It's the Product P of the four P's of marketing.

and patrysha, a record store here would have been a disaster...we are a poor town....im so glad we figured out something else..and are now a regional business and selling to people with homes not kids on an allowance...does anyone even buy records anymore?
I never said it would work. It would be like building a bookstore in a northern community...can't sell what is not wanted. But what you don't seem to understand is that decision of what to sell is a marketing one. Even though people separate it out and put it in little boxes.

[vangogh]

the other decisins and choices arent marketing to me

By definition those things are marketing though. What you're calling marketing is only one aspect of marketing. You're talking about promotion. If you want to say that identification, selection, and development of a product is more important than the promotional strategy you choose for that product that's fine. But both are still marketing. When Patrysha or myself says marketing should be top priority from the start we're looking at the full definition of marketing.


that decision of what to sell is a marketing one.

Exactly. I don't see how you can even start a business without having considered marketing since your choice of what business to go into is at the core a marketing decision. If you don't think marketing at that point you're blindly going into business.

[greenoak]

then it sounds like about everything i do is marketing....thats a pretty big word....
i consider marketing all the time...i hold it in high regard...
. to me marketing is what gets them in the door...then when they come in and say wow!!!...or the opposite... why did i bother?...thats in the realm of lots of other jobs and skills we business owners try and have... .....like managing the business.... to me marketing is one big part, i thought you looked at it the same way by how your forumj is laid out....showing different areas of a business....managing , marketing and finance.....
i guess we just disagree....
.......i wish you could see all the marketing messages sent my way in a month from people and businesses wanting to sell me some thing or service......its huge.....

[Spider]

The following definitions were approved by the American Marketing Association Board of Directors:

Marketing:

Marketing is the activity, set of institutions, and processes for creating, communicating, delivering, and exchanging offerings that have value for customers, clients, partners, and society at large. (Approved October 2007)

There was also an entirely separate definition for Market Research, which is clearly not part of marketing - it is a distinct and separate function.

The Webster's definition of marketing is:
1a : the act or process of selling or purchasing in a market
1b : the process or technique of promoting, selling, and distributing a product or service
2: an aggregate of functions involved in moving goods from producer to consumer

From the above one can see that market research is not included in the official definition of marketing. The standard dictionary does not include it and neither does the American Marketing Association.

Just because Market Research can benefit the application of Marketing, doesn't make Market Research part of Marketing. It is an entirely separate function.

[greenoak]

this is getting kind of odd....i want to say one more thing..... if someone asks me how do i market the store i would say billboards,radio, direct mail, email, website, facebook and newspapers....thats the common way marketing would be looked at in my world....
i have to know the market....i have to study what the market is saying i have to go to market to buy my goods..the store is a market place..but when the actual subject of marketing comes up in my retail world its talking about publicizing and advertizing and presenting your business to the public..and i think thats how this forum is laid out too....... im not mis informed on this..... there are seminars on marketing , marketing tutorials, marketing webinars all aimed at helping us stores market to our customers better...........maybe you and patrysha are in a different world...but for retail, where i do my business, i know how the term marketing is used ... ....
can you see what im saying?

...

[vangogh]

Ann those things are all marketing, but only one aspect of marketing, namely promotion.


then it sounds like about everything i do is marketing....thats a pretty big word

Yep. Maybe not everything, but a lot more than it seems at first glance.


to me marketing is what gets them in the door

But think of all the different things that get people in the door. Your choice in products gets people in the door. Your prices get people in the door. Where your store is located gets people in the door. It's a lot more than an ad in the paper or a billboard. Those things also get people in the door, but they aren't the only things.

Your choice of a business name gets people in the door. It tells a story about what people will find if they walk in and who owns the story and the kind of shopping atmosphere they'll find. It's another marketing decision.

I think a lot of people think of marketing as advertising only, but again that's really only the promotion aspect of marketing. Here's a decent article from Wikipedia about what marketing is (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marketing). It really sets the entire strategy for everything in your business and that strategy leads many of the specific decisions you make.

[C0ldf1re]

... Here's a decent article from Wikipedia about what marketing is (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marketing)...

Another good link, thanks Steve!



‘Choice’ examined the theory of trolleyology finding that many shoppers instinctively look to the right when they’re in the supermarket. Supermarkets prey on this biological trait by positioning many expensive impulse buying products to the right of the every checkout.


I'm even looking forward to the next trek to the supermarket, to check that out!

[Patrysha]

but when the actual subject of marketing comes up in my retail world its talking about publicizing and advertizing and presenting your business to the public..and i think thats how this forum is laid out too....... im not mis informed on this..... there are seminars on marketing , marketing tutorials, marketing webinars all aimed at helping us stores market to our customers better...........maybe you and patrysha are in a different world...but for retail, where i do my business, i know how the term marketing is used ... ....
can you see what im saying?


And in all those marketing sessions and books and seminars and tutorials is there not a presupposition that you know and understand your specific target market? Is there not a presupposition that you know how to do your windows, that you have good staff that you know how to train and manage and schedule effectively to accommodate your shoppers shopping habits while allowing time for the housekeeping tasks that need to be kept up, that you know how to use your point of sale equipment and software...(and that is not to mention all the other things that aren't related to marketing directly but are vital to business success namely the financial and legal ends of things) of course marketing can be relegated to just the promotions IF all these these things are pre-supposed and the tragedy is that most businesses do not have all those ducks in a row. The ones that do have all those ducks in a row are successful over the long haul...it's really as simple as that.

And it is actually my personal belief that if one does the internal marketing well that there is limited need for external marketing...so no...in my world marketing does not mean advertising. It can mean advertising but not always. I've personally written brochures, print ads and radio ads, but I've also written things that are part of marketing in an indirect way like training manuals, product descriptions and product knowledge pamphlets.

But that's the thing, each marketer is different. But a lot of people who call themselves marketers are nothing more than glorified sales people. Both industries have a lot of sleazy tactics and poor reputations attached to them...with good reason. That I do understand.

[greenoak]

i agree with the wikipedia description of marketing...and i try for the market research parts too...
in my retail world its about the business and the customer... ..

[Spider]

Perhaps I can help clarify this. I think the additonal items being spoken off here - product development, store design, etc - are very important in the creation of a business. But marketing isn't about creating a business - it is about selling and delivering a business's products and services.

Does it not matter that

a) Wikipedia acknowledge that their article "may require cleaning up to meet Wikipedia's quality standards." and
b) runs counter to the description set out by the AMA (http://www.marketingpower.com/AboutAMA/Pages/DefinitionofMarketing.aspx)

The commonly held, more limited definition, as described by Ann, is Marketing. There are many other aspects to a successful business that a marketing professional can help with - business name, product choice, store design, store location, pricing, and so on. But these elements are not marketing per se.

A surgeon and a pharmacist may both be medical professionals but pharmacy isn't surgery and surgery isn't pharmacy. Likewise, marketing is one thing, market research is another. Just because one professional may be of service in both areas does not make them one and the same. The fact that they overlap doesn't make them a single subject.

I think we should go with the leading authority on this - the American Marketing Association. They clearly set out two separate descriptions - one for Marketing and another for Market Research. Marketing is not market research and market research is not marketing.

[greenoak]

right spider , i hear you..... and if we go to a marketing professional i think we all know what areas we would have in mind and they would be offering... ....all the stuff they try and market to us....ads, facebook, marketing programs , coupon programs, tv commercials, radio spots, brochures etc etc...... ...all the things that help us us reach out to our customers.... they arent going to be telling me where to go buy the best windchimes or how to changing our seasonal business plan..and if they tried that it w ould be weak weak weak...and not their field...

[Spider]

On the other hand, Ann, it would be a sensible consideration for you to seek out a real marketing professional (stress the word 'professional') if you were considering a major change in your seasonal business plan or were dissatisfied with your current seasonal business plan. Such a market research professional as VG and Patrysha are contemplating would be worth consulting if you were to be thinking of changing your basic pricing strategy (from generally low price to predominantly high price, for example) or wanting to focus more on million-dollar plus homeowners. But, when you are not interested in doing those foundational things, plain ol' common marketing is what you clearly want, and do.

[greenoak]

right...i figure the right person to do this would be over my budget....but i do it myself and in consensus with all our crew...i do foundational thinking all the time./..maybe too much for some of the crew....but i think its served us pretty well...and made us react to the hard changes we have faced in our growth...
i actually have an old school buddy who just retired from being a 250$$ an hr consultant for small businesses offer to go over things with me...it would be surface but maybe a different view...as a freebie....i find freebies kind of wierd tho....im more curious than worried about anything....his questions have been very interesting....

[Spider]

What sort of questions did he ask?

[Dan Furman]

his questions have been very interesting....

I'm happy to hear this. Keep your mind open.

[vangogh]

runs counter to the description set out by the AMA

Really? I think they're very much the same.

AMA definition of marketing (emphasis mine)


Marketing is the activity, set of institutions, and processes for creating, communicating, delivering, and exchanging offerings that have value for customers, clients, partners, and society at large.

The 4Ps definition of marketing


The management process through which goods and services move from concept to the customer. As a practice, it consists in coordination of four elements called 4P's: (1) identification, selection, and development of a product, (2) determination of its price, (3) selection of a distribution channel to reach the customer's place, and (4) development and implementation of a promotional strategy.

Let's compare the 2 definitions

creating offerings - (1) identification, selection, and development of a product
communicating offerings - (4) development and implementation of a promotional strategy
delivering offerings - (3) selection of a distribution channel to reach the customer's place
exchanging offerings - (2) determination of its price

The AMA's definition is the more general and more inclusive, but both definitions are essentially saying the same thing and both clearly define marketing as a lot more than promotion.


and if we go to a marketing professional i think we all know what areas we would have in mind and they would be offering

Ann I don't think anyone here is suggesting you need to hire a marketer to determine what product you'll sell or how to price that product. The idea is that people should be considering marketing as a priority when starting a business.

[billbenson]

Mind you, I don't think SEO has much to do with copywriting, though.

I gotta differ with you on this one Spider. Coypwriting would ideally please the search engines from an SEO aspect and steer the visitor to a close (which can be many different things). That can be a fine line to straddle. Search engines have been putting more weight on copywriting in the last few years. They are almost becoming the same thing.

[C0ldf1re]

... Coypwriting would ideally please the search engines...

Yes. My experience is that well-written sites are climbing higher in serps, and poorly written sites are falling. Since when have you seen bad English in a site high in serps, regardless of how much blackhat SEO they have done?

[greenoak]

bill, if thats true im totally amazed.....that would be seem so subtle and hard to catch....
spider , real specific ones...like what do i mean by destination store ,what kind of people buy, and i have a big idea that hes going to want some numbers.....hes not into motivation we discussed that.... we got the sell online idea out of the way right away....i gave him a good overview and feel like he got it....
and he bemoaned the fact that most small businesses cant afford what he used to do...mostly he w orked on bigger places than us...at 250 an hour....its not going to be general advice...one point was that they dont come in with the answers , they have to dig thru the data first then go from there....which i liked the sound of....hes seen the store, and gets the family goals...
hes not going to be able to come in and drill the customers, like he would o on a big job... it should be interesting....
thanks dan, im going for it....evenif its just a lot of conversation....

[Spider]

... spider , real specific ones...like what do i mean by destination store ,what kind of people buy, and i have a big idea that hes going to want some numbers.....hes not into motivation we discussed that.... we got the sell online idea out of the way right away....i gave him a good overview and feel like he got it........its not going to be general advice...one point was that they dont come in with the answers , they have to dig thru the data first then go from there....which i liked the sound of....hes seen the store, and gets the family goals....Thank you. That's the same thing I do - including the numbers, so I'm pleased he's approaching it in - what I see as - the best way.