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Blessed
10-13-2008, 01:10 PM
I know who I think I will vote for and I'm not really thrilled with either candidate but I'm wondering about you - who do you think you will vote for? Whose proposed policies do you think will be better for small businesses? Why?

I'm not going to say which way I'm leaning yet (I will later tonight or tomorrow) although those who know me might be able to guess - I'm also not interested in a name calling, mud slinging contest - a discussion would be nice, I'd like to know who you support and why.

cbscreative
10-13-2008, 02:23 PM
I'll try to be nice, but to me this is a no brainer...McCain.

It's not that I'm thrilled with the choices, but Obama is not only wrong, I believe he's dangerous. He seems unable to provide straight answers. His ideas that he is willing to talk about are so socialist, it ought to make any business owner cringe. Tax cuts for 95% of the country is a cruel joke if he's only hiding those taxes with business tax. Don't even get me started on how increasing capital gains will kill off economic growth that we desparately need.

The obvious bias from the media is especially alarming (even when it was Obama and Hillary). They have hordes of bloodhounds in Alaska looking under any rock they can find desparately hoping for some dirt on Palin and making a big deal out of little to nothing. Meanwhile, they completely ignore Obama's ties to shady characters (except for a small number of media who dare to report it).

I can see where Obama appeals to the people who want something for nothing and want the gov't to be a sugar daddy, but that has never worked anywhere, any time, and we don't need it here in America. I believe Obama WILL change this country if elected, but not for the better. Someone has to pay for all the ideas he is promoting, and he's trying to sell us on the idea that gov't can do better for us than we can do for ourselves. When has that ever worked? That's why I think he's dangerous. Once he gets more power into the hands of gov't, they won't let go.

billbenson
10-13-2008, 03:11 PM
If it was a Biden Obama ticket, I'd consider it more closely. But not the inverse. Obama may be smart, but he's in Pampers on the political experience scale.

I'm very middle of the road on a lot of issues. I was hoping the democrats could provide a fairly middle of the road candidate. They didn't. I hate the far right and also the far left.

Also, we are in a time of war and it doesn't look like its going to end soon. I'd rather see someone who has been there and done that running the country.

Sorry, Obama just doesn't have the level of experience on numerous fronts including playing politics in Washington and around the world.

Evan
10-13-2008, 07:49 PM
Everyone has underestimated Obama, and I truly believe he'll be better for America than McCain. Small businesses included.

Many people assume that under Obama, the national deficit would increase more than it would under a McCain administration. That is actually wrong. Obama's spending would increase the deficit $3.5 billion by 2018, in comparison to $5 billion by 2018 under McCain (assuming he lives that long). Better than Bush, who has doubled the national deficit since taking office.

McCain also tries to paint himself in a different light than what exists. He is not change, he's a continuation of the failed policies of Bush. His VP pick, Palin, is even worse. Both paint themselves as being reformers, but their records indicate anything but. They hope there is just enough hype to lead them to a victory, but McCain still won't win.

Back in 2000, McCain did say he would never take the low road to the highest office. Now he has no choice, because all of his ads criticize Obama. Why? Because he is no different than Bush and just wants to paint Obama as being the "bad" person.

What baffles me most is that when you have two people on the same ticket that lack knowledge in matters that are important to Americans, yet they expect people to take them serious. If McCain thinks the fundamentals of the economy are strong, he has quite a bit of learning to do. If Palin doesn't know what causes global warming, how can she work to solve the issues? She can't.

Experience is a moot point for the Republicans now they have Palin. She certainly isn't as intelligent as Obama, and "executive experience" is irrelevent to me. And while military service is admirable, it's not a deciding factor in who I'd vote for.

Obama will do a fine job as President, and he'll face many challenges. I'm sure he'll be able to work through them very well and history will judge him well.

greenoak
10-13-2008, 08:20 PM
i am in small business....but i really want more health insurance for my workers, i dont want my grandkids to go to war for nothing, and i think obama is a whole lot smarter...and will be better at solving the huge problems 8 yrs of bush has left us.....and be harder on the big guys who dont even pay taxes because they register in the carribean...
...and then what if we have a president palin?
its a no brainer for me....
ann

Blessed
10-14-2008, 09:18 AM
Obama's health care policies really concern me. I'd like it if everyone had health insurance - but requiring small businesses to provide health insurance for their employees, creating a national health insurance program and fining families who don't have health insurance for their children - those three issues really concern me. I don't love McCain's plan either - but I do like the fact that it doesn't try to enlarge the monstrosity that Medicare is - government run insurance...

Also saying that 95% of Americans will get a tax break if he is elected rings false to me - just like the first George Bush's "no new taxes" pledge. I'm afraid that we would actually see taxes rise - on small business owners and middle class Americans as well. Also while I agree with him that those with lots of money don't need the tax breaks they are likely to get if McCain is elected, I also don't think that they need 10+% tax hikes Obama is proposing.

Our country is in a load of debt and all of our politicians are corrupt - I want smaller government, not bigger - bottom line to me I think the government is likely to grow less under a McCain presidency than under an Obama presidency so I'm leaning towards McCain. Honestly - I wish there was a chance that Bob Barr could win, he would have my vote - he might still get my vote!

Aaron Hats
10-14-2008, 10:06 AM
You can't trust either one of them. Our taxes are going to go up and there won't be a miraculous healthcare solution no matter who wins . With the very good possibility of needing new Supreme Court judges soon I'm voting for McCain hoping that he'll appoint somebody at least a little conservative.

cbscreative
10-14-2008, 11:20 AM
Obama's health care policies really concern me. I'd like it if everyone had health insurance - but requiring small businesses to provide health insurance for their employees, creating a national health insurance program and fining families who don't have health insurance for their children - those three issues really concern me.
These concern me more than just a little. That is part of what I had in mind when I used the word "dangerous" to describe my view of Obama. If anyone thinks that socialized health care is a good solution, they should take a good look at countries that have it, consider the mess we have with Medicare, and try to imagine conditions in the state of New York on a national scale.

cbscreative
10-14-2008, 11:58 AM
There is one thing I would like to add to this discussion because I live in Michigan. We have Gov. Granholm, Sen. Levin and others who share the same belief system that Obama does. They have seized the opportunity to "test market" their policies on our state. I get most of my business from outside of Michigan because they have successfully eliminated jobs and even caused negative population growth (people are leaving the state more than moving in). They literally are trying to stop the bleeding by imposing more taxes on those who are still here. The sad part is, many voters here aren't seeing the connection. States with lighter tax burdens have stonger economies. To see the entire country run like they've been doing in Michigan will not make things better.

Anyone can (and many will) try to make a case for policies like Obama is advocating. But with all the intellectual discussion aside, bigger government has not solved the problem. They do it here in Michigan and then blame the failure on something else. I'm not an economist, but I understand business well enough to know how free enterprise works, and what squelches it. Obama can talk a good line, and that has worked well for him, but take a really good look at Michigan before voting for someone who wants to take the entire country down a path of poilicies that our state already has.

Our country does need change. It needs to return to the principles our Founding Fathers intended for it. The further we get away from that, the worse things get. We don't need more experiments in policy. It wasn't broken, yet for the last 100 years, they've been trying to fix it. Now we have a real mess.

BillR
10-14-2008, 12:40 PM
In many ways I am a strict constructionist when it comes to personal rights. But at this point in time I HAVE to vote Obama because I am a small business owner and there is one reason only: Health Insurance.

No on realizes how much of a burden this is on small business job generation in this country. Do you have any idea how many people would try to start their own business but are kept back because of this single issue? They simply will not take the risk of being without insurance or can't afford a single family plan direct with an insurance company. If you have any dependents or any pre-existing medical condition you are screwed - most simply can not do it.

Also, health care costs in this country are VERY expensive. The cost of providing health care in every other industrialized country is much lower. Why is ours so high? Because we let it get there. We do not do preventative programs as a general rule.

If we insured everyone - via whatever means is the best free-market solution - it would be a FANTASTIC thing for entrepreneurs in this country. I'm by no means advocating socialized health care directly - but I am a HUGE fan of universal insurance.

Case in point - you are an entrepreneurial spirit. You get in a car accident and are partially disabled. You are slightly lame and have minor health issues for the rest of your life. Your employer offers a health plan so you are covered.

Thing is - right before your accident you were all set up to open a new company. Now you can't - because even if you manage to do that you will have pre-existing conditions that no health insurance company will cover if you try to get a new plan. So you are screwed.

This happens ALL THE TIME. People can not change jobs because they are locked in due to pre-existing conditions.

At the same time employers are strapped - insurance costs keep rising because we are not collectively bargaining for better prices. Personally our plan - for 16 people - would have gone up over $20,000 this year to over $100,000 annually. We decided to cut benefits instead. Now we are at greater risk of losing employees and this also hurts business.

billbenson
10-14-2008, 03:17 PM
Bill, I have trouble believing that either candidate can implement a health care plan that will benefit me. I'd vote for the devil if I thought he could.

BillR
10-14-2008, 03:42 PM
Bill, I have trouble believing that either candidate can implement a health care plan that will benefit me. I'd vote for the devil if I thought he could.

I tend to agree - but it needs to start moving in that direction. It will never be a system where it just gets done in one fell swoop - it will need to happen over time.

Step one should be covering people who use emergency services only. That cost alone is well into the billions a year.

Many people are against this because they don't want to pay for it.

You know who pays for it now? Us. There's no change.

Blessed
10-14-2008, 03:58 PM
BillR - I think it is interesting that Health Care is one of the deciding factors for both of us but I'm on the opposite side of the fence from you on it - I like McCain's plan better - portability, his plans to lower the cost of health care, the tax credit to help offset the cost of health care, his Guaranteed Access Plans, expanding the scope of HSA's and etc... seem to be a better solution to me than the national health care plan Obama has proposed.

cbscreative
10-14-2008, 04:47 PM
I'd vote for the devil if I thought he could.
The problem there is the devil is highly skilled at making people believe he can help or has a better plan, but he is unable to deliver on his promises. For those less familiar with the Bible, the word devil means "deceiver" and I not only believe he exists, he is very much active in politics.

I know you meant this in jest, I'm just playing advocate against the devil because I deal with him his cronies regularly. That's also how I know he's real. If anyone is wondering what I mean, look up 1 Peter 5:8. Everyone who decides to become a serious Christian will find out just how real the devil is. Fortunately, you can defeat him every time, but he hates it when you find that out.

Sorry if that's too far off topic, but it's hard for me to stay quiet on that one.

Evan
10-14-2008, 08:51 PM
the tax credit to help offset the cost of health care

You do realize healthcare would become a taxable benefit under his plan? The $5,000 credit probably will not cover the cost of the benefit. It does sound good on paper though.

billbenson
10-14-2008, 09:01 PM
Back on the subject of managing the war:

I know someone who grew up in the El Salvador Nicaragua war. She was kidnapped at 5 and escaped. They were kidnapping children to fight in the war. One day, one group of guerrillas would come into her village, randomly shoot children and others and demand food and food for when they return. Days later another group on the opposing side would come in and do the same. She was also raped and other things as a child during the war. The stories are pretty horrible and like nothing any of us have seen I suspect.

She has been here for 10 years or so and is educated, although probably not that much on the economic side of things. Her perspective is quite interesting. Someone who has been there.

She is a big Bush proponent. She is a Bush proponent because he took the battle to their country, not ours. She also states that from everything she has seen her war was far worse than Vietnam and the current war is similar to hers. We haven't had people getting shot in masses in the street since the Civil War. She likes Bush because he took the war to their turf, not ours. I'm not saying she is correct, but its a perspective to be considered.

Obviously she is not an Obama fan. I think its important to note that when you go to select a president, we are in a time of war. There are going to be a bunch of kids coming back from Iraq that have had their best friend shot next to them.

When you think about who you are going to vote for, factor in who can best deal with international diplomacy and being in a time of war. This thing ain't going to end soon and it affects the economy as well. For me in a positive way because the military is a customer; but think about it.

BillR
10-14-2008, 10:00 PM
If anyone is wondering what I mean, look up 1 Peter 5:8.

First rule of business - if someone brings up religion change the subject :)

Second rule: same, but politics.

Seriously though - I avoid conversations like this simply because I have yet to see any two people agree on what any verse of any of the religious books of the major faiths say.

Blessed
10-14-2008, 11:49 PM
You do realize healthcare would become a taxable benefit under his plan? The $5,000 credit probably will not cover the cost of the benefit. It does sound good on paper though.

Yes, I do realize that - however... I still think government ran health care is a very bad idea. I'll be surprised if either of the proposed policies stays intact as it goes through being implemented.

Blessed
10-14-2008, 11:53 PM
Back on the subject of managing the war:...

I do feel that McCain is more qualified to handle the war than Obama - especially this war. I wonder if Obama's heritage would cloud his judgement in negotiating and decision making... I realize that others would argue that his heritage will help him in this matter.

cbscreative
10-15-2008, 12:44 AM
BillR, I appreciate what you are getting at, but I'm speaking from experience so a philosophical/religious discussion isn't needed. One thing that is consistent among Christians is we all share the experience I mentioned, so although we may not agree on the exact meaning of every passage in the Bible, the point I made won't surprise my fellow believers because it's one of the things we all share in common. I fully realize that if you've not had the same life transforming encounter, my point will not make sense, but to those who have, they will know exactly what I am referring to.

If you've not engaged in battle with the devil, it might be easy to believe he's not real. For me, that's not an option. If you want to consider that religion, fine, I consider it experience, and a fact of life I have to deal with. If you find a Christian who doesn't agree on this point, I doubt they are really Christian because he is the enemy of God and true believers quickly find out how much of a battle they are really in. Ironically, this helps confirm faith, but again, there's no way to know what I mean unless you have experienced it.

Feel free to change the subject. I do know the devil is very active in politics, but other than that, we are off topic. Let me quickly end by pointing out why he is so politically active. He hates God, and because America was founded on the Bible, he hates this country and wants to destroy it. He hates Jews and has sought throughout history to destroy them. He also hates women which is why they are oppressed in most cultures. He hates you, and he hates me. He's very real, and very systematic. It doesn't matter to him what you believe as long as you don't get in his way.

greenoak
10-15-2008, 04:36 AM
i forgot to add im against torture and corporate welfare..and im very much for the constitution and the seperation of church and state.
.i hate to even mention religon but obama is the kind of christian i can respect and understand..
..wouldnt the clinton economy would be pretty nice right now....maybe the dems are the new conservatives....
ann

BillR
10-15-2008, 09:42 AM
maybe the dems are the new conservatives....
ann

What's funny is that the Republican party was a VERY liberal party when it started. Abe Lincoln was EXTREMELY liberal in the context of his time. Freeing the slaves? Very liberal. Restoring/freeing all combatants at the end of the Civil War and sending them home? Exceptionally liberal for that time and place.

These things tend to flip flop through the years.

What I think is most interesting in this race is the poll #'s. A larger and larger contingent of voters are identifying themselves as "Independent" (including me). Both of the major parties are losing membership as time goes on because neither party stands for anything.

And if you disagree with that point let me ask this: name one belief you must hold to be a member of either party? The answer: zero. Neither party has any core beliefs (political, economic, etc) that can be universally identified as part of that party.

BillR
10-15-2008, 09:46 AM
I fully realize that if you've not had the same life transforming encounter, my point will not make sense, but to those who have, they will know exactly what I am referring to.


Actually - it has nothing to do with what I may or may not believe or what I may or may not have experienced. I just prefer to not get into those discussions.

In my office we have a mix of people. Perhaps the most interesting room is a larger office shared by two people: an evangelical christian and a militant atheist. Surprisingly, they both converse about religion and politics very well (ie, respectfully). But very few people can do this and I've seen it turn into a minefield numerous times in business settings. I just flat out avoid it.

cbscreative
10-15-2008, 03:26 PM
Perhaps the most interesting room is a larger office shared by two people: an evangelical christian and a militant atheist. Surprisingly, they both converse about religion and politics very well (ie, respectfully).
Glad to hear that, Bill, that's the way it should be. There's no point in arguing. I actually enjoy discussions with atheists as long as they are not hostile. One thing I've always appreciated about this forum is that the members here are able to have civil discussions even when we don't agree. We can tackle both religion and politics and still respect each other. That kind of makes us like a larger group similar to the two people in your office.

billbenson
10-15-2008, 04:33 PM
A friend of mine once said you can never argue with someone from Montana, because no matter what you said, they would just say "I spose" (I suppose). Not a bad approach IMO.

As a field sales guy, I had to steer around those conversations, although I don't recall to many problematic situations.

In an office environment it can be a minefield if someone is an extremest in any area. Particularly if the manager or owner is that extremest. I've seen that one. I've also seen a chatty executive secretary give out salary info. That created a mountain of problems.

Evan
10-16-2008, 02:52 PM
A larger and larger contingent of voters are identifying themselves as "Independent" (including me). Both of the major parties are losing membership as time goes on because neither party stands for anything.

I believe it's because the Republicans and Democrats aren't that different. Despite having slightly different priorities, they all care about the same "core" issues and just have the opposite stances or different ways to accomplish it. Democrats propose government programs to help people (good intentions), but they end up in the wrong hands. Republicans promise to reduce government (good intentions), but end up making it larger or expanding it in other areas. They all make good promises, but don't deliver to the satisfaction that people would like.

Politics is slimey. They will promise the world, but often can't deliver. I'm sure many could relate to this as for what vision you have for your company, yet not being able to do everything you wanted. Or perhaps you thought you'd stick with Plan A, but something changes and now Plan B is what you need to follow. It's quite similar in politics, but too many people are affected there.

And while management (the President) often gets the blame, sometimes the problems lie with the board of directors (Congress). Not a perfect comparison, but still :D

Blessed
10-17-2008, 10:35 AM
And while management (the President) often gets the blame, sometimes the problems lie with the board of directors (Congress). Not a perfect comparison, but still :D

Oh so true Evan... I'd love to see the Libertarian party become a larger force in our national politics and then I'd love to see some of their ideas implemented. That would pare the government down a lot very quickly... unfortunately I don't see it happening any time soon!

Spider
10-19-2008, 10:02 AM
I don't trust that Obama will stick to his campaign promises - but what politician ever does? However, I believe most intend to, with the exception of Obama. I don't believe Obama intends to stick to his campaign promises. In my view, he has a decidely socialist agenda that he hasn't yet declared. His slip-of-the-toungue with Joe "the plumber" about spreading the wealth is indicative of that. With a democratic congress, this will be hugely damaging for America and therefore the world.

I think it is a huge mistake to blame George Bush for the increase in the deficit. The legislature (Congress) decides how much is to be spent, the administration (the White House) spends what they are given. The blame for the deficit rest with Congress. A republican in the White House and a Democratic-dominated congress is a poor combination. Praise is often given to Clinton for reducing the deficit during his term, but that wasn't his doing - it was the Republican dominated congress that reduced the deficit.

Besides, such matters take a while to filter down to the country so that what happens during one president's term is as much the result of the previous president as the present one. Bill Clinton's legacy has been 2000-2008. George Bush's legacy will be 2008-2016.

In my view, the arrangement during the "Clinton Years" is best - Republican Congress, Democratic White House. Worst possible combination is a Democratic Congress, Democratic White House. Which is what seems likely to happen in November. This will be made all the worse because a staunch left-wing socialist and a product of Chicago politics seems likely to be our next president.

cbscreative
10-19-2008, 05:40 PM
Excellent points, Frederick, that often get missed. I have often made similar statements because the results of poilicies are rarely felt in the short term. Just like a seed planted does not bear fruit immediately, the success one administration may take credit for is largely the result of a previous one just as you stated. If Obama is elected, his ideas could provide much merit in the short term, but it's the long term effects I would be much more concerned about.

Like you, I don't trust Obama to keep his word, and trust is a big one for me. I beilieve he will say anything he thinks will improve his chances, and I don't trust anyone who will not make a solid stand. I've never been a big fan of McCain, but one thing I have always thought about him is that he is consistent with what he says. Personally, I think we had a much better glimpse into the real Obama when Palin was chosen as McCain's running mate and things started looking bad for Obama. He was very different when his numbers were slipping. Now he's smug again. I just don't trust anyone like that. Eloquent, yes, but it takes more that being a good speaker to be President.

billbenson
10-19-2008, 07:42 PM
Very interesting, today, that Colin Powell came out in support of Obama. I respect Colin Powell and doubt he did it without a lot of thought. He is also a retired politician. He has pretty much bowed out of politics, and has incredible experience. I have a feeling that the bulk of his decision was the Palin choice by McCain. He stated that the republican party is going to far to the right. I agree with that being pretty middle of the road myself.

I will still probably vote for McCain, but a vote of confidence by Powell gives me a better feeling should Obama win, which seems likely.

Evan
10-19-2008, 09:04 PM
I was surprised by Powell's endorsement, but it does indicate how "right" the party is going.

I know former US Senator Lincoln Chafee (R-RI) supports Obama as well, who was another moderate (though the most liberal Republican).

Spider
10-20-2008, 02:12 PM
I was surprised by Powell's endorsement, but it does indicate how "right" the party is going.
I know former US Senator Lincoln Chafee (R-RI) supports Obama as well, who was another moderate (though the most liberal Republican).
I'm surprised you say that. To me, Obama is decidedly left wing socialist, and the party generally from all I hear is moving left, too. So much so, that Joe Leberman has been left behind by the leftward shift and is so 'right' of his party now that he spoke at the Republican convention.

KingHippo
10-20-2008, 03:37 PM
John Kerry for the win!

Steve B
10-20-2008, 04:12 PM
Spider - I think Evan was speaking about the Republican Party moving to the right.

Evan
10-20-2008, 09:36 PM
Spider -- I do believe both parties are moving too far to the left/right. Extremes are never good.

Spider
10-20-2008, 09:40 PM
Spider - I think Evan was speaking about the Republican Party moving to the right.Oh - okay! But that doesn't help - I thought John McCain was counted as a moderate, and all his remarks about the economy and all the people he is going to help, he (McCain) sounded as if he was about to join the Democrats! True, his gun-toting, fetus-saving rhetoric keeps him tied to the right, but otherwise....

Who knows what these guys believe any more!!! :confused:

Evan
10-20-2008, 10:29 PM
I thought John McCain was counted as a moderate...

His VP choice certainly isn't, and is coming out further and further to the right. That may appeal to some part of his base, but not to most of the moderate/independent people out there. Of course socialism is just as bad.

billbenson
10-27-2008, 08:48 PM
I'm not a scholar in this stuff so I look to people that have my views and evaluate their opinions. As I've said before, I'm pretty middle of the road, but I am a republican because I'm a capitalist. Special interests should have very little impact in a presidential choice, but frequently tend to drive who you pick. Abortion, gun control, religion, etc., should have no impact on who you pick to run the country. Would you use that logic to hire someone who can run your business. You are anti abortion and they are so you hire them; or do you say can this person run this business?

So I have a couple of friends who I listen to. One was a Political Science major, the other engineering, the other dropped out of school in the 8th grade but became a VP in a major company. One of the above is super intelligent. In college he didn't go to differential equations class, got the professor to let him use the final as his final grade, read the textbook the night before the final and got 100% and finished before everybody else.

All of the above mentioned are entrepreneurs. All are republican. All have owned successful businesses. All have been following the politics of this election closely.

On the republican side, at first I thought Palin was a good political choice. Today I think she is a loose cannon with no experience. McCain is in his golden years and singing "I did it my way". He could keel over and die at any time and Palin becomes president. Scares the heck out of me.

On the democratic side, you have Obama, who is inexperienced but smart. He has a Washington savvy VP. It bothers me that he has no military experience in a time of war. It bothers me that he has no international diplomacy experience. It also bothers me that we will have a democratic congress, senate, and president at the same time if he wins. One of the problems we have today is the US auto industry which is the result of unions (IMO) supported by the democrats decades ago.

So, being middle of the road, a capitalist, and believing that some special interest shouldn't sway my vote, who do I vote for?

Whoever becomes president is walking into a bee hive. The economy, war, terrorism, etc.

It's interesting that my republican friends from diverse backgrounds, but all successful entrepreneurs are leaning toward Obama. None of them like the options, but they are what they are. IMO Palin has really damaged the republican options. Also, Powell coming out and saying he will vote for Oboma as well as saying the republican party has drifted to far to the right is influencing my decision.

I don't know yet, but I don't like the options.

Spider
10-28-2008, 09:22 AM
Although I don't get to vote amd see this election from an international view point, I have to pay attention to the fact that, for one side America is the problem while the other side feels that America is the solution. Listen to the rhetoric and you will notice the difference.

Neither side is totally right on that, but I cannot help leaning towards the side that thinks America is a solution to the world's problems rather than being the cause of everything that is ill with the world.

Marcomguy
10-28-2008, 09:59 AM
I am a republican because I'm a capitalist.

I read recently that the rich are Republicans, but the uber-rich are Democrats. That could mean a lot, or it could mean nothing. If I find the source of that information, I'll post a link.

cbscreative
10-28-2008, 01:41 PM
I'll let everyone draw their own conclusions from the link below, but I stick by my statement earlier that Obama is dangerous. Here is a man who is seeking to take an oath in January to uphold the Constitution of the United States and yet he believes it is "fundamentally flawed" (apparently because it doesn't advocate socialism). It's one thing to hear this from critics making accusations, but how about from the canidates own mouth?

There is YouTube audio of his 2001 radio interview here (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=79225) so you can draw your own conclusions and decide if we should have such a person in the White House. I call this deplorable, but I also know the socialists will disagree. For the record, I do not know anything about the site I am linking to, I use it only because it has the audio clip so you can hear the statements yourself. Further details are all over the Internet because many people are understandably outraged.

The way the news media has been covering this election, they would be all over this if McCain had said something so radical. Why do you only hear these things through alternative sources? Bias is one thing, but they know this stuff, yet choose not to report it. I call that withholding information (or deliberately trying to stack the deck). It must really bother them that they can't control everything.

Blessed
10-28-2008, 06:50 PM
Here's my last statement on this election - I've appreciated the discussion here!

A Blessed Crazy Life: What I Really Want In A President - An Open Letter To The Candidates (http://crazydogslife.blogspot.com/2008/10/what-i-really-want-in-president-open.html)

cbscreative
10-28-2008, 08:31 PM
I thought that blog post was very well written, Blessed. Thank you for sharing it.

billbenson
10-28-2008, 11:40 PM
So, I as a middle of the road republican was hoping for a middle of the road democrat to emerge. I'm tired of the extreme positions of both parties. Who was out there that could have fit that bill? For you political scollars out there, who would have been a good pairing for a middle of the road team on either side of the fence.

cbscreative
10-29-2008, 02:44 PM
I suspect middle of the road to be either difficult or impossible to define.

Even if achieved, how do we know that's the answer? Let's look briefly back at the Civil War era. This nation was as divided then as it is now. The biggest difference is they were willling to fight about it (though I don't rule out that possibility now). Lincoln was not a popular president, yet we now hold him up as a hero for taking a stand.

I would even go so far as to say that history will be much kinder to Bush than public opinion is now. There are things going on in the Middle East that most of the news media is not reporting, and some very tough decsions have had to be made. I don't envy anyone having to deal with this, it is very complex, so I believe public opinion is often irrelevant. There are too many times when the public has been wrong and history sorts that out.

I myself thought Reagan was nuts when he took office. I was among those who hated him, yet I liked Carter even less. Reagan was radical and bucked public opinion many times. He was not middle of the road by any definition, yet few would now argue his accomplishments. He took office under many of the same things we face now. Right now, it's like the 1970's on steroids. We need someone really radical, not a smooth talker who promises things they can't deliver.

As for your question, bill, I don't have the answer. I don't like either canidate much, but there is one I just plain don't trust. I firmly believe he will say anything he needs to if he thinks it will help him win. I'd rather have someone I don't agree with than one I can't trust. It is fairly well known (I think) that the opinions of the majority of journalists do not match those held by most citizens, yet one canidate has their overly enthusiastic support.

Evan
10-29-2008, 09:28 PM
So, I as a middle of the road republican was hoping for a middle of the road democrat to emerge. I'm tired of the extreme positions of both parties. Who was out there that could have fit that bill? For you political scollars out there, who would have been a good pairing for a middle of the road team on either side of the fence.

Republicans - Fmr Mayor Rudy Guiliani, Fmr S.O.S. Colin Powell, Gov. Jim Douglas, Gov. Don Carcieri, Mayor Michael Bloomberg

Democrats - Sen. Evan Bayh, Sen. Joseph Lieberman, Sen. Mark Warner, Sen. Ben Nelson

There are of course others, but these are a few that I do think fit the bill better than the current candidates.

pete
11-02-2008, 11:58 PM
Obama seems to genuinely believe in inclusiveness and building bridges between factions, as he did as a state senator in Illinois, bringing together everyone involved in protecting the rights of all while still advocating the death penalty. Just making is more fairly applied by requiring full video taping of all interrogations.

The final measure was even supported by the police.

As business people we should be aware of our current standing in the world. We're right up there with how our citizens feel about Bush and Congress. We need a bridge builder not another chip on the shoulder guy swaggering around.

We need to regain as much of our former role in the world as we can. It will probably never be what it was, but 4 or 8 more years of guns first, talk later (maybe) is only going to diminish our standing in the world community even further.

So much of the internal things are going to depend on congress, as well as the president, and they will take time. But Obama as president can begin to restore our place and how we are looked upon by others without a lot of congressional action.

Personally, in 2000 I would have voted for John McCain, but this year after seeing him give in to every group that pressured him within his own party in order to gain the nomination and seeing his continuing pandering to the far right as well as his totally negative ads has pushed him outside my comfort zone.

And allowing himself to be pressured into taking such an inexperienced running mate only further goes to show that he may not be for sale for money, but he certainly is for glory.

To say he's been "tested" because he happened to be just another fighter pilot on a carrier during the Cuban missile crisis is a joke. That was no test, he did nothing except follow orders. He had no say in any of it, he was just along for the ride.

He was a good man. If anyone has sold out to the Devil, I'd say it's John McCain. And I think Colin Powell and other Republicans understand this only too well and are throwing their support to Obama, or remaining silent.
.

billbenson
11-03-2008, 09:26 PM
this from a cnn article. Doesn't look like either candidates plan affects me much. I'm not exactly going to go out and by that Porsche I want on the $400 I save with Obama. I still haven't decided.

Article: The candidates' effect on tax bills - Oct. 29, 2008 (http://money.cnn.com/2008/10/29/news/economy/candidates_tax_plans/index.htm?postversion=2008110316)




BREAKING DOWN THE NUMBERS
Here's how average tax bills could change in 2009 if the candidates' tax proposals were fully in effect.* An average decline doesn't mean everyone's bill in a given group would fall, nor does an average increase imply everyone's bill goes up.
MCCAIN OBAMA
Income Avg. tax bill Avg. tax bill
Over $2.9M -$577,148 +$699,872
$603K and up -$109,214 +$121,689
$227K-$603K -$15,877 +$942
$161K-$227K -$6,322 -$2,796
$112K-$161K -$3,736 -$2,135
$66K-$112K -$1,487 -$1,264
$38K-$66K -$608 -$1,118
$19K-$38K -$259 -$892
Under $19K -$65 -$567
* Not all proposals are slated for 2009. Example: Obama's proposal to increase what high-income earners must pay into Social Security. The campaign said such a measure wouldn't take effect for 10 years.

Evan
11-03-2008, 09:50 PM
Either way -- your vote does make a difference. Don't forget to get out there and vote! I can only hope the lines are not as bad as many predict they'll be. I'll be there bright and early!

billbenson
11-03-2008, 10:25 PM
The line at my mail mail box is usually pretty short. I always vote absentee. Normally I would have voted by now but...

BillR
11-03-2008, 10:41 PM
T-minus 1 day and counting.

Prediction: Obama win = DOW up through the end of the week.

Blessed
11-03-2008, 11:56 PM
I predict the same thing even if McCain wins - our market and country are bigger than one man - they just need the uncertainty to end and for us to finally know who the bigshot will be for the next 4 years.

I just urge all you USA citizens to get out and vote - even if you disagree with me politically! I think it is a sad commentary that the percentage of eligible voters who usually vote in our elections is so low! Hopefully there has been enough controversy and hype this year to get the citizens of the US of A into the polling booths!

Blessed
11-03-2008, 11:57 PM
I must be tired... I just noticed how many exclamation points I used in that last post :D

KristineS
11-04-2008, 12:46 PM
So far it sounds like voters are turning out in record numbers. I think that's fabulous.

Blessed
11-04-2008, 02:06 PM
So far it sounds like voters are turning out in record numbers. I think that's fabulous.

I'm glad we're having a good turnout - I think that is awesome!

Aaron Hats
11-04-2008, 02:08 PM
There were no lines and no waiting so I voted twice.

OldJack
11-04-2008, 03:12 PM
Campaign promises will no doubt be broken promises with our recent economic situation neither candidate will have the money to carry out those promises. I voted for McCain for experience and trust. Obama has never been in charge of anything and has done nothing to judge if he is trustworthy.

Blessed
11-04-2008, 04:12 PM
There were no lines and no waiting so I voted twice.

:D The election judges wanted to let Lil Sugar vote, but I figured she wasn't old enough to make up her own mind yet so I just voted once :p

billbenson
11-05-2008, 12:45 AM
Well it appears to be over now. People have a short memory. Most presidents suffer from the errors of their predecessors. Its going to be very interesting to see his public opinion in 4 years as he has some very difficult tasks in front of him that can't be changed overnight. Good or bad, he could look very bad down the road depending on a lot of factors the press being one of them.

This would probably be a fun time to have been a political science major.

cbscreative
11-05-2008, 01:59 AM
Bill, I think your statement about the press is particularly interesting. After several months of hailing Obama, I find the recent "we don't know where he stands" spin to be quite interesting. If things go south, they can now claim they are on record as calling him into question (maybe late, but at least they are now asking questions). I see some CYA in this as well as as blatent hypocrisy which seems conveniently calculated.

Personally, I will be very interested to see how things turn out 5-10 years from now. I'm not worried for myself, but I am fascinated since I've gained an appreciation for historical patterns. Like you said though, people have short memories and my comments now could mean very little in 2 years. At least I can go on record as saying it if someone happens to stumble on this post in a few years.

Blessed
11-05-2008, 11:01 AM
I've always thought it was fascinating that in recent history we might vote the same guy in twice but when his term is up we vote in the guy from the other party. Bush has had a lot of problems - some of them were his own fault and some were not, I figured it would be about impossible for a Republican to be elected this time and I was right... I'm interested to see if Obama stays as popular with the press as he is right now in the coming years.