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View Full Version : Does working with a client in a questionable business make you a participant ?



Harold Mansfield
04-19-2011, 11:48 AM
I've wondered about this for a while now and don't really know the answer.
Scenario:

You build a website for an escort agency. The agency is a legitimate business and licensed to do what ever they say they are doing..provide models, dancers, entertainers...or however they get their licenses.

However, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know what the real underlying business is, which is illegal.
The client, of course, asks you to build a website for their "modeling" agency and that's what you do.

Does working on the website make you a participant if you otherwise have no investment or ownership in the business, and that business gets in legal trouble?

Can I be help responsible for what people do with the website after I'm done and my relationship with them is over?
Can the argument be made that a reasonable person would have known?

Do I have any responsibility in this at all?

Anyone have any experience with this?

cbscreative
04-19-2011, 01:49 PM
Maybe David can answer the legal question. I would expect that legally you probably have nothing to worry about. The biggest question is your own integrity. If it were me, I'd opt not to take the job since it would be impossible for me to promote anything I considered objectionable. They'll have no problem finding a service provider since your apprehension wouldn't be shared by everyone. My answer is also based strictly on what I personally would do, you may come to a different conclusion, but your question suggests your conscience would be better served declining the job.

Harold Mansfield
04-19-2011, 02:58 PM
It's funny how you get sucked in. The first two were for friends that I know locally.
Now I get frequent calls from people that saw those sites.

I've recently taken my name off of the other sites and told the owners not to refer anyone else in the industry to me.

I started getting concerned when a local news story aired about the police tracking down the owners of escort services by targeting the people that they do business with. They were mostly speaking of people who give them mortgages, car loans and such, but it got me thinking.

greenoak
04-19-2011, 03:08 PM
we sold feather halters to strippers once and it didnt bother us....we were out there to sell the halters..
.i would have gladly sold a hundred of them if that had been requested..
.. does it really bother you? would it really be a black mark against you? .. did you vet who you chauffered for?
i would probably be worried about the local news story tho....

Harold Mansfield
04-19-2011, 03:14 PM
we sold feather halters to strippers once and it didnt bother us....
Strippers are legal. That wouldn't bother me at all.


did you vet who you chauffered for?.

Yes. All of the time. In that business ( at least in this town) escorts and escort service owners are always looking for a limo driver to chauffeur girls around, and for access to your clientele.
Also drug runners will charter a limo to make a delivery because they think it flies under the radar since limos are so common here.

Limos are a dirty business in Vegas ( and probably a lot of other places). It's one of the main reasons that I got out of the business.

Spider
04-19-2011, 04:17 PM
No direct experience, no legal opinion, nor any moral objection in this case, actually - but this is what I would consider if I were confronted with this situation -- One can get sued or charged for anything. It doesn't have to be illegal to get sued. You don't even have to be responsible to get sued. The court will decide whether you have broken the law. But in the meanwhile, you would have to defend the charge, guilty or not. And that might be too much of a hassle, too much of a risk. And there are some topics that being charged or sued over is enough in some peoples' eyes to make one suspect.

501graphics
04-19-2011, 04:34 PM
I opt out of projects like that. I even state on my home page that I will not design "Adult Websites".

Harold Mansfield
04-19-2011, 07:51 PM
That's the thing. They aren't "Adult" websites. They are "models for hire", "Strippers for hire", "Exotic Maids" and so forth and they are licensed to provide those services. As far as I'm concerned, I'm doing business with a legitimate and legal business. It's only because of my experience in Vegas, that I know what usually happens behind the scenes and that these are usually fronts. But I can't say for sure that they all are, or even the ones that call me. As far as I know, they are a modeling agency. I can't tell any difference if they are in Boston and I'm in Vegas.

How about if I design a website for a successful hedge fund manager? If it turns out that he's a crook running a ponzi scheme, do I have any liability for being involved because he ripped people off and I built the website that helped him do it?

Where would that end? Is the phone company liable for proving him with phone service that allowed him to receive funds and process credit cards across state lines ? Commercial Real Estate company for leasing him space?

TotalPC
04-19-2011, 08:10 PM
I think you are overthinking it. If you have hesitations about it, then don't do it. But i highly doubt there would be any legal implications for you, just by designing a website. They could be 100% legit anyway.

If you think it is a good job that you want to take on, just see a lawyer first. At least then you can get some peace of mind (hopefully).

Harold Mansfield
04-19-2011, 08:16 PM
I think you are overthinking it.

Probably. It was just that news story that freaked me out.
I made any and everyone in that business that had my name anywhere on their site, take it down just to be safe.
I'm just not too crazy about how they do things out here when they get a wild hair up their bum about something.

Business Attorney
04-19-2011, 10:06 PM
You can be guilty of aiding and abetting a crime if you help another person in committing the crime, with knowledge of the criminal nature of the act. The fact that they have a "cover story" wouldn't give you much protection if you had knowledge of the illegal activity. However, if you simply suspect that the illegal activity is going on, you might arguably not have the required level of knowledge to become culpable. That doesn't mean you can be an ostrich or Sergeant Schultz: "I see nothing."

Another example of aiding and abetting a crime would be building a shopping website for high quality fashion goods when you knew for a fact that the website was going to be used to sell counterfeit goods.

Is it likely that the legal authorities would come after the person who created the escort service's website? I think it would be highly unlikely, though not out of the realm of possibility. I'd be more worried for the web developer who built a shopping website for selling counterfeit goods because his contribution to the criminal enterprise actually facilitates completing the illegal sale, while your contribution only makes it possible for the customer to reach the service.

Still, the safest bet is to avoid giving any assistance to an activity that you have reason to believe violates the law.

billbenson
04-19-2011, 11:59 PM
I'd post this question on one of the adult webmaster forums. There are a lot of developers there. They certainly can't control whether their client puts up legal, copyrighted material, or outright illegal material on the sites they design. But if its an issue they would certainly know.

KristineS
04-20-2011, 12:33 PM
It seems there's really three issues here:

1. Legal - Can you get caught up in any trouble if the business does turn out to be doing illegal things and perhaps using the website you built to do them. I'd guess probably not, as you would have plausible deniability, but someone with a legal background can tell you that for sure.

2. Moral - If you suspect that something is being done with these sites that might be considered immoral by some people, then you need to decide whether it bothers you personally. If it does, don't do it.

3. Perception - If it does come out later on that a client for whom you built a site was doing something illegal/immoral how much damage could that do to your business? Las Vegas might be more forgiving of that sort of thing than some cities, but perception is everything. Even if you've done nothing wrong, people might think that you have if your name is associated with a company that did get into trouble. SO that has to be considered as well.

Evan
05-01-2011, 05:54 PM
You can be guilty of aiding and abetting a crime if you help another person in committing the crime, with knowledge of the criminal nature of the act. The fact that they have a "cover story" wouldn't give you much protection if you had knowledge of the illegal activity. However, if you simply suspect that the illegal activity is going on, you might arguably not have the required level of knowledge to become culpable. That doesn't mean you can be an ostrich or Sergeant Schultz: "I see nothing."

Another example of aiding and abetting a crime would be building a shopping website for high quality fashion goods when you knew for a fact that the website was going to be used to sell counterfeit goods.

Is it likely that the legal authorities would come after the person who created the escort service's website? I think it would be highly unlikely, though not out of the realm of possibility. I'd be more worried for the web developer who built a shopping website for selling counterfeit goods because his contribution to the criminal enterprise actually facilitates completing the illegal sale, while your contribution only makes it possible for the customer to reach the service.

Still, the safest bet is to avoid giving any assistance to an activity that you have reason to believe violates the law.

I agree. You're not facilitating the entire operation, but are merely creating a way for customers to reach the service. If it is a legitimate business, then there shouldn't be problems unless you have knowledge that there is something illegal beyond what seems visible to most people.

Similarly for your Ponzi scheme example, if you're just building a website and have no knowledge of illegal activity then I wouldn't worry. But if you do know, and you also created a way for customers to wire money directly to the company, or if you're generating a script to create fictitious brokerage statements, then you'll have problems. You can't possibly think that Staples, who provided their paper and printers, or even the postal service, could somehow be liable for something they would be unaware of.

But you asking the question now seems like you have a legitimate concern over the nature of your clients, which should cause you to consider whether any potential risk is worth accepting a client. For example, if you designed the site of one person who had an illegal operation, how many other clients had an illegal operation? If they had enough of an interest, and probable cause, they could get a listing of all of your clients.

glenneena
11-27-2011, 12:14 PM
10 years experience in the adult fields in NYC and NJ.

If you have no collusion or promoting in an illegal act then no.

Collusion is a good example here and you also need an overt act after an agreement to place you into criminality.

Advertising or providing a service to an illegal business or a business masked as a legal business but providing illegal services is the responsibilty of its owners and managers, not vendors. In 10 extremely profitable and intense years in the northeast in the bothel business the only vendor ever went after by NYC Vice and Morals Squad or the US Attorney's Office was those factoring credit card services to the bothels. All other media was protected under the 1st Amend. rights.

As far as your rep., that's a decision what you want. Some look at the adult industry as a blight and horror and yet others look at it as a business.

If you are worried about criminal charges, which you would not get from designing a website, consult a criminal attorney for about $250 to $500 and lay it out.

glenneena
11-27-2011, 12:40 PM
Another example in a crude anaogly is the casino business. I play at the executive host level of player/casino host relationship. At Connecticut, Florida, AC, and Vegas. Tell your host anything but tread lightly when talking about if any of your front money is from illicit earnings. You can even discuss your profession which might not be above board, but once they have knowledge your front money is tainted, there might be a problem.

SnellExperts
11-27-2011, 12:40 PM
I would think that you would be fine if you legitimately didn't know and they could prove it. I wouldn't see "a normal person would have known" being a valid argument. If it was an assumption that all escort services operated illegally then they would not be allowed to operate, but as it is there are a lot of places that operate within the law. Same goes for massage parlors with "happy endings" and strip clubs with "home dances". If you have no way of knowing then you are not contributing. This is purely opinionated by the way, I don't know how the laws are concerning this.

glenneena
11-27-2011, 12:47 PM
Laws are now written whereas the D.A. can indict a ham sandwich as they say. LOL, but true.

The bottom line is that media is covered under the first amendment and they won't challenge that. They tried to Larry Flynt and others back in the 70's. Goggle it and read.

There are sexually expicit websites and publications offereing every type of service you can imagine. The crime is not the advertising or the creatation of it.

An auto dealer sells a vehicle that is to be used in an armed robbery, he did not commit the offense or facilitate it.