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Duston McGroarty
04-03-2011, 09:04 AM
I'd like to hear from anyone who has tried to write their own
copy but just couldn't seem to make it work...

Copywriting is a skill just like web design or graphic design. Very
few people are naturally good at any of these. It comes with
studying, practice and more practice.

But I wanted to list a little step-by-step guide that I use (learned
from one of the best copywriters in the world, John Carlton)
when writing sales letters... (this works for online and offline)

When writing copy, this is how you should structure your sales letter.
In this order:

Headline - should include four things: Specificity, Uniqueness, Urgency
and Usefulness. As Joe Sugarman said, the headline should accomplish
one thing... to get the reader to read the first sentence.

Introductory Sentence - should intrigue the reader and make them want
to keep reading

Problem/Story - transition from the introductory sentence to the problem... but
your story should also start here. Having a story in your sales letter is
almost a necessity... people love stories and it gets them to read more.
Don't be afraid of long salesletters (8, 9 even 17 pages!), if you're targeting
the right audience, they WILL read it. Your story should be a big bulk of the
sales letter. Interweave the problems into your story.

The Offer - make a clean transition from the problems in the story to the offer.
But don't make it look like an offer... meaning, keep the look of the copy the
same. You want the reader to keep reading. Once they know they're being sold
it's harder to keep them interested.

Bullets - a lot of people get this wrong when creating a sales letter... don't list
the features of your product/service, list the benefits and list them as bullet
points. For example, if you're selling hot tubs, don't write "24 high-powered jets"
as a bullet. That's a feature... the benefit is "With our state-of-the-art technology
your muscles and back will feel like they never have before!" That's a benefit.

Testimonials - add some testimonials at this point... there isn't much to say here
just pick some good ones that mention some of the benefits

Ask for the order - now it's time to get the order. A lot of people don't do this.
You need to include a call-to-action. "Click the link below to order RIGHT NOW".

Take-away - give them another reason to order immediately, "only xx available",
"I only have room for xx more people", etc.

Contact/Order info - give them a few ways to order if possible. If you're mailing
folks a letter, let them order by phone, fax, email, online. The more medias you
use, the more orders you'll get.

Value Builder/Guarantee - discuss how much your product/service is really valued
at and why this is such a good deal. Another very important part of every sales
letter is the guarantee. You want to remove as much of the risk as possible.

P.S. - the "P.S." is always another great spot to ask for the order and to mention
the take-away. Mention your biggest benefit too... a lot of people will skim through
this letter and the P.S. almost always gets read.

I hope this little guide will help some of you out... as the great Gary Halbert said, "You're only 1 sales letter away from making more money than you can reasonably
spend in a lifetime."

Dan Furman
04-04-2011, 11:34 AM
To answer your question directly, no, not anyone can do copywriting.

I liken it to art. Either you have artistic talent, or you don't. There is no middle ground. Lots of people can draw - but not many can actually call themselves an artist. Lots of people can write. Not many can call themselves a writer.

Then, going from there, those with the ability to write - to really be able to not just communicate, but convey emotion via the written word - yes, they can learn the essentials of copywriting. I'd guess it's less than 1% of the population, though.

I also think the sales letter stuff pretty close to dead. Besides the bare basics (yea, we know you need a headline, etc) it's really of little use to most modern copywriting instances.

Duston McGroarty
04-04-2011, 03:45 PM
I also think the sales letter stuff pretty close to dead. Besides the bare basics (yea, we know you need a headline, etc) it's really of little use to most modern copywriting instances.

I don't agree... people that are taking the time to send out old-fashioned, snail mail,
direct-response sales letters are absolutely KILLING IT!

Why? Because no one is doing it anymore. You can't tell me that if I sent you a hand-
addressed, stamped envelope with your name on it that you wouldn't open it.

I challenge someone to send out 100 letters promoting your product/service... if you
send them to a targeted audience, you will get a response.

We have gotten lazy using email and the internet. We're always looking for a quick buck
and missing profitable opportunities every day.

Steve B
04-04-2011, 04:37 PM
Sending out 100 is not even close to a large enough sample to test out a direct mail campaign.

In my case, I have sent out several thousands of these snail mail campaigns - I had them all hand addressed - promoting my product/service of course AND I sent them to a targeted audience via first class mail. I was convinced, as you are, that since others have stopped doing them, that it was a great opportunity to stand out. Are you ready for the results .... ?

I've done it several times with several different types of pieces and offers. One time I even used one of those hokey letters like the one you give an outline for. Each time I did it the results were very consistent. I never got enough of a response to cover my hard costs (printing and postage). I've checked with several other business owners that have tried them also - and none of them had profitiable results either. Unfortunately, the cost per piece is just too high for their to a good return.

Perhaps you can share a couple of the businesses that are doing so well with it. I'm sure it must work for some types of businesses, so I'd love to ask them a few questions.

Dan Furman
04-04-2011, 11:29 PM
I don't agree... people that are taking the time to send out old-fashioned, snail mail,
direct-response sales letters are absolutely KILLING IT.

Why? Because no one is doing it anymore. You can't tell me that if I sent you a hand-
addressed, stamped envelope with your name on it that you wouldn't open it.


I'm not saying that a snail mail campaign can't be effective, but you basically posted "sales letters 101" stuff, and asked if anyone can do it. I said no, and that the sales letter 101 stuff is pretty played out. I didn't say anything about snail mail marketing, etc.

I do think the hype-filled sales letter stuff you seem to be advocating has prettywell run its course. There's still a sliver of life in it, but it's waaaaay less effective than it used to be, and advocating that's how people should write copy is... well... wrong.

Say this a few times: "Copywriting does not automatically equal sales letters."



I challenge someone to send out 100 letters promoting your product/service... if you
send them to a targeted audience, you will get a response.

Maybe. Depends on what you send. I can guarantee it will have everything to do with what you send, and almost nothing to do with "nobody else is doing it". Trust me, people have been opening hand-addressed, stamped letters forever. They've always been somewhat rare. In the deluge of junk mail, we like hand addressed, stamped letters. Always have. It's nothing new.


We have gotten lazy using email and the internet. We're always looking for a quick buck
and missing profitable opportunities every day.

Who's "we"? Not most of the businesspeople I know.

But really, the copy method you suggest people follow SCREAMS of "quick buck".

vangogh
04-04-2011, 11:39 PM
To answer the question in the subject line directly, yes I do think anyone can do copywriting. However I think very few people can do it well. Same thing with design. Lots of people can design a web page or flyer. Few people do it well though.

I do think sales letters still work, though I think the format is changing. I think people have gotten savvier having seen so many long sales letters online that many can immediately see them as a sales letter and so quickly pass. I'm sure they work on some people, but I think they're effectiveness is decreasing. However the basic principles behind what make a sales letter work are universal. Benefits over headlines, telling stories, getting the reader's interest to pull them further into the copy. Those are all universal principles of good writing in general.

As far as opening a handwritten letter I can say it doesn't work on me. Very few people ever send me handwritten letters, to the point where if it's not one of the names I recognize I know it's a sales letter. I hardly open any mail. I'm more likely to throw out something legit because it looks like a sales letter than I am to open a real sales letter.

Duston McGroarty
04-05-2011, 08:24 AM
First of all... thanks to everyone for responding! There are a lot of different views on the topic
of copywriting and it most certainly has different results depending on the business you're in,
the product/service your selling, the price point of the product/service, the prospect list you
send it to and how well your copy is written.

So I'm not saying everyone will "kill it" if they put together a garbarge letter and throw
it in the mailbox. It takes time, testing and practice to perfect it just like any other skill.

As far as who it IS working for... I am part of a local mastermind group with 15 other business
owners and every single one of them has had (most are still having) success with direct-response,
snail mail letters.

They are NOT writing hypey, unrealistic copy that you see on most internet marketing product
releases (and that's not how to use the outline I provided)... but instead are hitting on their prospects
emotions and desires.

And no, not everyone will open a handwritten letter... again, it depends on your target audience.

I'll give one example of guy in my mastermind group... he does concrete formed steps for porches and front
door entries in residential neighborhoods. At last month's meeting he pulls out this letter that he sent to 110
COLD prospects. He had a local printer print up some $100 bills with his logo in the center and he folded them
in half and attached one to each letter with a paper-clip. He tied in the $100 bill with his offer in the headline
(I can't remember the exact headline but something about giving them $100).

He just mailed them two weeks prior to the meeting and had already gotten 14 phone calls... not too shabby.
His average job is $900 and he targets homes 20-25 years old (with visible damage to the steps).

Dan Furman
04-06-2011, 12:42 AM
Then maybe your mastermind group needs to forget lugging cement for $900 and get into copywriting. Take it from me - it's a lot easier on the back, and a lot cleaner. More profitable, too.

But seriously, I think the question is more "can anyone do their own copywriting?" and my answer there would be "maybe". I talk myself out of work from time to time because I feel the project in question is just not worth hiring a writer for. I've had people send me stuff to "fix" that I read and say "hey, for what you want to do, it's fine as is". A local office sending a one page letter to prospects may not necessarily need that little extra that a copywriter can give it. There is a point where "good enough" is just fine.

Duston McGroarty
04-06-2011, 07:45 AM
Absolutely Dan... Good is Good Enough. And the guy doing the cement... we have got
him doing copywriting on the side now (after a few years of nagging). He's an older guy
and has studied some of the greats (Halbert, Kennedy, Sugarman, etc.).

Spider
04-06-2011, 08:55 AM
To turn the rock over and look at the other side (as is my wont!) - I hear a lot of talk here about letters and copy. and lists, even, but no mention of the individual recipient of said sales piece. You can have a well targetted list but even the oft-exampled fisherman (who is always expected to buy the latest lure no matter what!) is no more likely to open an unidentified handwritten envelope as the next person. But we are talking about the letter, not the envelope - that is an entirely different discussion, in my view.

So, the letter is being read - whether delivered by USPS, Fedex (Yes, I have been getting junk mail by Fedex of late!) or e-mail. Even if the recipient is a good target for the sales pitch, it is more than likely he is not in the market at that moment. Then there are all the people not identified as good targets who might become interested or who have friends or family members who might be interested, or who have interested friends and family members who have a birthday coming up soon.... and so on.

There is another counter-productive argument. More and more people today are becoming environmentally conscious. More and more people are getting disturbed by the waste of tearing down trees, turning them into paper, printing stuff on the paper, stuffing it into paper envelopes, sending them out in the mail only to have 90% of that paper tossed into the trash, unread and unused, and carried to the landfill. With deforestation a world-wide problem! I have stopped donating to The Nature Conservancy, World Wildlife Fund and several others because of all the paper they waste in trying to get more donations from me and others. I'll bet I'm not the only one! We are all good targets and interested in the topic of the sales pitch.

My point is that I feel success is less about the copy, the envelope, the target groups or the list - it is more about each separate individual to whom the sales pitch is made. So, to answer the original question - it doesn't matter much about the copy. If the first question the recipient asks - Is this something about which I am interested right now? - is answered in the afformative, the ramblings of a five year old child, if on-topic, will do fine for copy.

Copywriting has a far more important job to do in the business world than junk mail pieces, and that takes talent and skill, and a good bit of artistry.

Harold Mansfield
04-06-2011, 12:05 PM
I don't agree... people that are taking the time to send out old-fashioned, snail mail,
direct-response sales letters are absolutely KILLING IT!

Why? Because no one is doing it anymore. You can't tell me that if I sent you a hand-
addressed, stamped envelope with your name on it that you wouldn't open it.

I challenge someone to send out 100 letters promoting your product/service... if you
send them to a targeted audience, you will get a response.

We have gotten lazy using email and the internet. We're always looking for a quick buck
and missing profitable opportunities every day.

That may work for some , but it is so rare that I am expecting anything of significance via snail mail that I don't even check it everyday. Once a week maybe. And most of it goes in the garbage unopened. A hand addressed envelope would not catch my attention at all. I would immediately assume it was some kind of sales letter or solicitation just as I always have even before email.

I'm not disputing your claim that "people" are "killing it", but from what I remember, with the exception of catalogs and sales papers from know retailers, no one was really killing it even before email and instant messaging. At least not since the 70's. People hated junk mail. Open and response rates were far below what an email blast is today and that is pretty low. I can't see how that has changed.

Harold Mansfield
04-06-2011, 12:14 PM
As far as anyone can copy write. I don't belive that is true either. First of all most people can't write. You can lay out all of the templates in the world and you can't make the average person a copywriter anymore than you can outline how to be a movie director.

It's not just the structure of the page, its the words. Painting a picture, entertaining or evoking emotion is a skill that comes from both talent and to a large extent education. Everyone doesn't have that talent and most people never will. Saying that anyone can be a copywriter is like saying anyone can be a novelist, ad campaign exec, or speech writer.

Maybe using the correct diction and structure can be taught (although many people didn't even pick that up in grade school) , but using the right words takes skill.
That's not to say that the average person can't learn enough to get by and write their own copy, but unless you have the talent with words, it will never be as good as someone who does have that talent.

You put my copy side by side with someone like Dan's and even I will take Dan's over mine. There's no comparison.

Patrysha
04-06-2011, 01:26 PM
You put my copy side by side with someone like Dan's and even I will take Dan's over mine. There's no comparison.

Two thoughts...first I do think more people are capable of writing good copy...but most who develop an understanding of why copy is important would rather leave it to the professionals as soon as they can afford to.

Second, in regards to Harold's quote above. I agree that there is no comparison. In most cases Dan's copy would outperform most amateurs, but when you combine passion and expertise with a true understanding of the target market a person can have some pretty amazing results even if things aren't perfect or exactly how a professional would have approached the same issue.

Duston McGroarty
04-06-2011, 02:28 PM
I agree Patrysha... and the target market is the key. I've heard Dan Kennedy say it over and over (it may be a Gary Halbert quote)...

"A sh*tty sales letter to a highly targeted market will out-perform a great sales letter to an untargeted market everyday."

Blessed
04-07-2011, 09:48 AM
Two thoughts...first I do think more people are capable of writing good copy...but most who develop an understanding of why copy is important would rather leave it to the professionals as soon as they can afford to.

Second, in regards to Harold's quote above. I agree that there is no comparison. In most cases Dan's copy would outperform most amateurs, but when you combine passion and expertise with a true understanding of the target market a person can have some pretty amazing results even if things aren't perfect or exactly how a professional would have approached the same issue.

I'd say Patrysha nailed it here - every business owner I've seen who has learned the value of good copy and learned how to write good enough copy for themselves, but who doesn't think of it as one of their strong points - passes the copy writing job off to a professional as soon as they are able.

However... you are theoretically the most knowledgeable and passionate person in regards to your own business. If you have a good understanding of your target market and access to a good mailing list - either one you've built before or one you are able to buy on very specific parameters you can have some pretty amazing results.

erichtoll
08-13-2011, 03:04 PM
I think there is a perception that anyone can do copywriting, but that's an incorrect assumption.

Copywriting should being with a goal. Then every word must support accomplishing that goal, including tapping into deep emotions and needs. Also the writer needs to understand how people read print, how they read web - which are different. Check out the links in my signature for some copywriting based on Maria Veloso's book.

vangogh
08-15-2011, 10:32 AM
I think there is a perception that anyone can do copywriting, but that's an incorrect assumption.

True. Everyone thinks they can write. Few people write well enough where anyone would want to read what they write and few still can write good copy.

cbscreative
08-16-2011, 01:25 PM
Many of us here are in an occupation that "anyone can do" so it gets amusing at times.

Anyone can write copy
Thanks to modern software, anyone can design business graphics
Thanks to tools like WordPress, anyone can design a web site

Statisically, 80% of all businesses fail. Although you can argue the accuracy of the numbers and even how failure is determined to arrive at the numbers, it's still abundantly clear that MOST businesses do fail. I believe the anyone can do it assumption is largely responsible (or a significant contributing factor) for the demise of many businesses. It's tough in the early stages to pony up funds for success, but not doing so often leads to tougher problems.

vangogh
08-16-2011, 07:28 PM
Steve anyone can do those things. They just can't do them well or well enough to stay in business.

Writing is one of those things that most everyone can do. We all learned to read and write at an early age. It's one of the first things you're taught in school. What most everyone can't do is use written language to communicate effectively. Even fewer understand what it is they should be communicating in the first place.

cbscreative
08-22-2011, 04:08 PM
Kristine made an excellent point in a blogging thread (http://www.small-business-forum.net/blogging/5144-guest-blogger-copywriter-ghost-writer.html#post52363) that I think is quite relevant here too, so I'll take the liberty to plug that for her.

vangogh
08-23-2011, 11:12 AM
Here's the quote from Kristine.


If you're hiring a copywriter for a web site or really anything online, one of the things that people forget is not only does the person who is being hired need to be able to write, they also need to understand how websites work and how writing for the web is different than writing for other venues. So that's a good question to ask a potential writer, what websites have you written for in the past, and what do you know about how websites work and writing a web site that converts.

erichtoll
08-24-2011, 11:37 PM
I write my own copy because, since 1994, I've done 2 things: marketing and video. Ergo I can do the marketing for my video. And before that, I was a professional writer since 1987.

Click on the links in my signature, and let me know - can I do my own writing - or should I hire someone?

Dan Furman
08-25-2011, 12:08 PM
I write my own copy because, since 1994, I've done 2 things: marketing and video. Ergo I can do the marketing for my video. And before that, I was a professional writer since 1987.

Click on the links in my signature, and let me know - can I do my own writing - or should I hire someone?

Your website reads more like informational articles than anything else. That seems to be the intent. The articles are fine, but is it really working as web copy (e.g. is it converting?)

Patrysha
08-25-2011, 12:25 PM
Why is the site relying so much on words and not with video. I'd rather think that showing rather than telling would be to your advantage in this case...

But as Dan said...the only question that can really help with that question is "Is it working?"