Jury Duty

[billbenson]

I just received a notice for jury duty. My job requires sitting in front of my computer and phone 12 hours a day. One missed call could cost me thousands. A week out of work could bankrupt me.

There is a place on the form to request excusal. What would be the best way to fill out this section?

[Dan Furman]

I don't know if things are different where you are, but in NY, being an entrepreneur / needing to be at work / etc is not a valid excuse. You can get an excusal for a short while, but, at least in NY, in almost all cases, you will serve. Period.

[Harold Mansfield]

I don't know of many ways to get out of jury duty...dead or in the hospital comes to mind. But "I have to work" is pretty much everyones excuse. They don't even let doctors out of it.
No one wants to be there.
I say just suck it up man. We all have to do our civic duty and our time is important too.

Every time I have gone, I sat in a room for half a day (last time with a laptop and an iPod) and never got picked, had some lunch and went home. If you do get picked and go through screening, just try and look like an idiot so that one side will have grounds to excuse you.

[Business Attorney]

I'll echo what Dan and Harold have said. In Illinois, attorneys and judges used to be excused from jury duty. Not any more. Everyone has to serve. In our state, you can get excused from a particular date if you have a valid excuse (say it falls in the middle of your already-paid-for vacation trip), but you will be thrown back into the rotation and won't get off entirely.

On the other hand, I've been called at least 4 times but only actually was selected to serve on a jury once, for what turned out to be a 2-day trial. Chances are you will sit in a room with a bunch of people and then go home.

If you really think that for some reason your hardship is worse than other small business owners, I would talk to the someone at the clerk of the court's office about the process and how to best fill out the form.

By the way, the jury duty days typically would be more or less 9 to 5, with an hour for lunch. Of your 12 hour day, you would only miss a little more than half of your day and should be able to return messages within 3 hours (if you return calls during lunch). You're much better off than the many people who don't have the ability to work remotely.

[Steve B]

I absolutely love jury duty. It really makes me feel like an important part of the one of best things about this great country. I've served on an actual jury twice and they were both great experiences. I've been on call several times in addition and didn't get picked.

Regardless, if one week away from your computer could bankrupt you - you may need to come up with a plan so that that isn't the case. What if you get sick, require an operation, or have a family member require your assistance?

[nealrm]

Do you really want to get out of jury duty? If everyone that was smart and hard working was let out of jury who would be left? We would have juries composed of dumb, lazy people. Is that what we really want?

[Spider]

The last two posts are my view of Jury duty. Never mind it is a civic duty - the mere fact that if you were unfortunate enough to be in the dock, you would want the best and finest citizens hearing your case. The American system - indeed, the entire national structure - rests on an active, involved electorate, and the most important thing you can do in this system, and the most effect you can have on your American way of life - more important, even than casting your 1 vote in 300 million at election time - is to participate directly in the judicial system as a jury member.

And I further support Steve's note that if a day off work could bankrupt any entrepreneur, they ain't doing something right!

[Dan Furman]

And I further support Steve's note that if a day off work could bankrupt any entrepreneur, they ain't doing something right!

Agree. This is a really good point.

[Harold Mansfield]

I know that feeling though. Big accounts or large clients come at a moments notice with no rhyme or reason. You can get caught up into feeling like if you are not there every moment, you will miss money..especially if it has happened before.

[billbenson]

This isn't a case of taking half a day off. If I am selected the people I have known that have gone to trial had a one to two week process. I am not a remote employee in the sense that I need to be in front of my computer in my office during office hours. The calls or emails that make me the bulk of my income need action now, not in two hours or tomorrow. Its the phone call that makes me several thousand dollars that I can't miss and immediately act on. It's also why I dislike my job. I'm trapped to my office and can;t leave. Yes I do leave at times, but it is at the risk of missing one of those calls. Certainly leaving for a week or two would be very expensive. On the ones I could follow up on after my day of jury duty, I would have to do that at night. Working most of the night and arriving without sleep isn't going to exactly make me an alert attentive juror.

This isn't a case of wanting to skirt my civic duty. Its a case of a week or two in court would cause significant financial hardship.

[Spider]

I'm sorry to say that you have the solution, Bill. Actually, No - I'm glad for you that you have the solution. You have been saying for as long as I can remember that you hate your job. You haven't exactly made a secret of it. Well. only you can change it. And only you has the power to change it. Wouldn't now be a good time to start?

[Steve B]

Amen Frederick. We live in a free country where you have the ability to do anything you want. Hating your job should just not be a long-term option - look for something else! Or, at a minimum, hire someone who can take your place in your current job and then develop another business or find a job that you like (and can afford to step away from). I'm sure you're thinking there's nobody else with your unique skills etc. (but, sorry I'm not buying it).

It reminds me of a friend of mine that was a stock speculator. He made millions during the late 90's and early 00's, but he could never visit me or take his family on vacation because when the market was open - he had to be at the computer. He can keep his millions - (although, ironically, the new economy already took them away).

[Harold Mansfield]

Not saying that it can't happen, but most court cases don't last a week or 2, more like a day or 2. You are getting worked up over some very huge odds that you will even be picked, and that you will be picked and get on one of those rare 2 week trials.
If you honestly think yours is so much different than everyone else who has a business to run, then fill out the form.

I'll be honest, I'm pulling for ya, but I just don't see them excusing you from showing up because of work. The odds are you will miss a couple of hours of work on the day you are supposed to show up and that's it. I've never been picked for a trail or even gone past the sitting room beyond check in.
Haven't you done this before?

Depending on how big your municipality is, I'm sure 100 people a day can say the same thing:

"I'm a real estate agent and I could miss out on $1000's in commissions in one day"
"I'm a car salesman, and you never know when a sale could walk in the door"
"I'm a consultant and one missed phone call could mean lots of money missed"

Face it Bill, everyone with a job is going to lose money for being there, especially salesman and definitely hourly employees. Who loses more, an hourly employee that works 40 hours a week to make a few hundred dollars or someone like you who can make thousands in one phone call? It will take that hourly employee weeks and some overtime to make up that kind of loss.

After all, even if picked it only pays something like $14 a day.

I'm not belittling your plight, I'm just saying it's not any more important than anyone elses that has to do it. I'm sure it is to you, but not to the court or everyone else who shows up. They do this everyday and hear every excuse in the book...you only get called once every few years.

If you are really that adamant about not doing it or taking a chance on getting picked, show up unshaven with hot onion breath, un-bathed in a pair of dirty sweatpants with a pineapple in your briefcase. You'll be out of there by lunch.

[huggytree]

when ive been called for jury duty it was a 1/2 day sitting in a room....the thing id worry about is getting on a large case which would take months...if the case they pick you for looks like that id just stand up and say you cannot take a month off....id put the limit at 1 week..your business will survive and you will have an 'experience' to talk about..

one of the cases i sat in the room for as an extra. they had a guy who stood up and said he didnt think he should have to serve because he didnt want to....when the lawyers were questioning the potential jury this guy just stood up and said that.....they skipped him for all future questions and didnt pick him for the jury...so just stand up and look like an idiot and say something like that....they wont pick you

[CloptonCapital]

This is a tad off topic, but why do we have jury duty? It seems like a massively archaic system that penalizes people for voting (they take your name off of voting registries)

[Harold Mansfield]

This is a tad off topic, but why do we have jury duty? It seems like a massively archaic system that penalizes people for voting (they take your name off of voting registries)

So that the state can't just throw people in jail without proving to a group of peers that there is guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. Without this sort of citizens review of the facts, even more innocent people would be in jail than there already are.
In court innocent and guilty don't matter. It's what you can prove. Without a jury of citizens, I'd be scared to walk down the street. The police and county prosecutors would have total, unchecked control over you.
You don't have to have a jury. You can have a trial by judge.

In a somewhat related story, one of our local DA's was just arrested for buying crack cocaine:
http://www.lvrj.com/news/clark-county-prosecutor-arrested-on-drug-charges-118337184.html

Isn't that special?

[Business Attorney]

This is a tad off topic, but why do we have jury duty? It seems like a massively archaic system that penalizes people for voting (they take your name off of voting registries)

In Illinois, it is no longer just registered voters who are selected for jury duty. If you have a driver's license, or an Illinois Identification Card, your name is in the pool of potential jurors.

The system doesn't "penalize" anyone. The U.S Constitution and the state of Illinois constitution guarantee every accused person a right to a trial by a jury of one's peers. How can our state and federal governments honor that guarantee if your peers can simply say "no" to serving on a jury?

[Steve B]

There are plenty of other counties where you would never be asked to sit on a jury, but, I'm guessing you wouldn't like the trade-offs involved.

[Spider]

There are plenty of other counties where you would never be asked to sit on a jury, but, I'm guessing you wouldn't like the trade-offs involved.Excellent response! There may be a few times in life when you can have your cake and eat it - but this isn't one of them!

[CloptonCapital]

So that the state can't just throw people in jail without proving to a group of peers that there is guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. Without this sort of citizens review of the facts, even more innocent people would be in jail than there already are.
In court innocent and guilty don't matter. It's what you can prove. Without a jury of citizens, I'd be scared to walk down the street. The police and county prosecutors would have total, unchecked control over you.
You don't have to have a jury. You can have a trial by judge.

In a somewhat related story, one of our local DA's was just arrested for buying crack cocaine:
High-profile drug case prosecutor Schubert arrested on cocaine charge - News - ReviewJournal.com (http://www.lvrj.com/news/clark-county-prosecutor-arrested-on-drug-charges-118337184.html)

Isn't that special?

The sarcasm is unneccesary. I'm saying why not just have trial by judge? Yeah, I know if I was prosecuted could choose trial by judge. I would prefer that twelve people weren't dragged against their will into a jury box for an indetermined amount of time.

[Spider]

The jury foreman had just announced the verdict - not guilty!

However, it was pretty clear the defendant had committed the crime, and the judge, quite surprised and angry, said, "On what grounds?"

"Insanity, your honor!"

The judge said, "What! All twelve of you?"

[Harold Mansfield]

The sarcasm is unneccesary. I'm saying why not just have trial by judge? Yeah, I know if I was prosecuted could choose trial by judge. I would prefer that twelve people weren't dragged against their will into a jury box for an indetermined amount of time.

Where was the sarcasm?
Not everyone is dragged kicking and screaming to serve. Some people actually consider it an honor to do their duty. I personally don't have a problem with jury duty and don't consider it an inconvenience.

[Business Attorney]

I'm saying why not just have trial by judge? Yeah, I know if I was prosecuted could choose trial by judge. I would prefer that twelve people weren't dragged against their will into a jury box for an indetermined amount of time.


That's your choice, but for various reasons most people want to have that choice. Your suggestion would remove it for everyone. Our Constitution guarantees that right for a reason. Judges, though impartial in theory, are part of the government and some people simply would rather trust their peers to decide their guilt or innocence rather than a government employee. The mere fact that people have that choice instills more confidence in our legal system.

Besides, I question your assumption that people were "dragged against their will into a jury box for an indetermined amount of time." I know lots of people who have served on juries (though not the months-long variety). Most were inconvenienced to some extent and many (myself included) had economic consequences ranging from gas and parking costs that were more than the entire stipend for jury service to lost wages or income. Most felt that the experience was rewarding and not one expressed to me the feeling that they were "dragged against their will into a jury box." I am sure that there are some, as you and billbenson seem to fit loosely in that category, but I certainly don't think that the majority of jurors are there against their will.

[billbenson]

I am sure that there are some, as you and billbenson seem to fit loosely in that category, but I certainly don't think that the majority of jurors are there against their will.

I agree with the comments above that we need to do our duty in this regard and its a good system. Most would prefer to be on the beach in the Caribbean, but don't mind doing jury duty. There does seem to be an antiquated system of selecting who is exempt however. Anyone who cares for a child at home is exempt, for example. They can get a baby sitter for the days. I have no idea what the solution is, but it is a greater hardship on some over others.



Spider -> And I further support Steve's note that if a day off work could bankrupt any entrepreneur, they ain't doing something right!
Dan -> Agree. This is a really good point.

Because both of you have had the luxury of being able to plan your careers doesn't mean everyone can. I lost a career in the dot com crash in 1999 or so. I lost everything. I've been scraping to get out of debt for 10 years. And I have a good business and am moving forward. Probably another two years to be debt free from all including the IRS. Advice to change careers or business plans when you are scraping but surviving and quickly moving ahead until you are ahead is pretty lousy coaching!

[Business Attorney]

I agree with the comments above that we need to do our duty in this regard and its a good system.

Bill, just to clarify, when I put you "loosely" in the category of those who were serving against their will, I was referring to your statements that it would be an economic hardship for you to serve on a jury at this time. I certainly didn't mean to imply that you were against the jury system, in general, or didn't believe that there should be a civic obligation to serve as a juror.

[Spider]

...Advice to change careers or business plans when you are scraping but surviving and quickly moving ahead until you are ahead is pretty lousy coaching!Come now, Bill. Where did either of us advocate changing careers or changing your business plan. I referred to changing your situation, and that is totally within your capability. If you were to choose to change your career or business plan I would support you. If you chose to change your situation by improving your current job, I would support you - and I believe you when you say you are working to improve your situation. I support you in that. My point is, it is entirely up to you how you deal with the situation. "Hating" something that takes up so much of your day is only going to make your life miserable. And it is more difficult to get ahead when you are miserable than when you are happy. So my first recommendation is to find some way to enjoy what you do. Hate is a choice, too.

Nevertheless, it is a common mistake to suppose that coaching is telling the client what to do. It is not - it is about helping the client achieve what they want to achieve, whatever that is. And none of that changes the issue that if a day off work could bankrupt you, you're not doing something right! I believe the remark was an exaggeration - perhaps in frustration - and an example of how hating something can have destructive effect.

You may not think so, Bill, but I am rooting for you.

[billbenson]

Spider -> And I further support Steve's note that if a day off work could bankrupt any entrepreneur, they ain't doing something right!
Dan -> Agree. This is a really good point.

But look aat what you and Dan said Frederick.

The subject of this thread was how can I get out of jury duty as it could present significant finincial hardship to me. Your response "And I further support Steve's note that if a day off work could bankrupt any entrepreneur, they ain't doing something right!" is both off subject and an insult. You, who frequently complain of your questions being taken out of context or different questions than the question at hand being answered should at least keep pretty much to the subject.

[Spider]

I'm really sorry that you took my remarks as an insult, Bill - they certainly were not intended to be insulting. More a prod to help you make the decisions you know you have to make.

As to staying on topic - your original post introduced the notion of a week off work bankrupting you - "a week out of work could bankrupt me" - and the remark that has upset you is relevant to that. Seeing as your initial post was really a question of how to fill out an excusal request, one could argue that the whole conversation about jury duty was off topic, too.

But I don't think anything you have said has been tqken out of context, has it? Or been misconstrued?

[Jacoby]

Man, I'm glad I don't live in New York, or Illinois... sort of. But in Baltimore, MD all you need is a valid excuse.

Although, I don't recommend this, I've heard that using something such as "being out of the country" has worked for some people that I know.

I do not recommend doing this though. It's our civic duty to attend court.

[Steve B]

It's also against the law to lie in court to a judge.

[Dan Furman]

But look aat what you and Dan said Frederick.

The subject of this thread was how can I get out of jury duty as it could present significant finincial hardship to me. Your response "And I further support Steve's note that if a day off work could bankrupt any entrepreneur, they ain't doing something right!" is both off subject and an insult. You, who frequently complain of your questions being taken out of context or different questions than the question at hand being answered should at least keep pretty much to the subject.

First, I didn't plan for my career (as you alluded to in another post). I got fired, with debt / a mortgage / car payment / life / etc.

Two, I really, REALLY don't see any insult, and I also did not mean it as such in any way.

I would tell any entrepreneur that if they were in a business that if one day off - just one - could seriously harm them financially, to RUN AWAY from that business asap, almost regardless of circumstances. I cannot imagine the stress something like that causes, and to be perfectly honest, I come down on the side that no amount of money is worth that. What do you do if you had to go out of town for a funeral? If someone needed your help for the day? What do you do when two people call at once? Or three? What happens when the power goes out?

Goodness, I may have missed it in the past, but what job/business are you in that requires this kind of attention? I'm not trying to make light of it - I truly want to understand where you are coming from.

[CloptonCapital]

So that the state can't just throw people in jail without proving to a group of peers that there is guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. Without this sort of citizens review of the facts, even more innocent people would be in jail than there already are.
In court innocent and guilty don't matter. It's what you can prove. Without a jury of citizens, I'd be scared to walk down the street. The police and county prosecutors would have total, unchecked control over you.
You don't have to have a jury. You can have a trial by judge.

In a somewhat related story, one of our local DA's was just arrested for buying crack cocaine:
High-profile drug case prosecutor Schubert arrested on cocaine charge - News - ReviewJournal.com (http://www.lvrj.com/news/clark-county-prosecutor-arrested-on-drug-charges-118337184.html)

Isn't that special?

Last I checked there was no jury duty in Sweden, and it doesn't seem like they're living in anarchy.

[Harold Mansfield]

Last I checked there was no jury duty in Sweden, and it doesn't seem like they're living in anarchy.

When did we start talking about Sweden? There is no comparison between America and anyplace else.

You can't just choose one aspect of a society for comparison without considering everything else about that society including it's history, laws, economics, culture, system of government and so many other things that are important in determining what works there compared to what works here.

[J from Michigan]

For the record; I was called and made no attempt to get out of it, but my question is...

Presidents Bush and Obama both got out of jury duty.
At what point does "the job" become relative for the rest of us?

[Harold Mansfield]

For the record; I was called and made no attempt to get out of it, but my question is...

Presidents Bush and Obama both got out of jury duty.
At what point does "the job" become relative for the rest of us?

The President gets out of most things that require him to speak in a court of law because he cannot be compelled to answer any questions that may personal compromise security or National Security.

He cannot be sued or called as a witness either. You can't ask the President "What were you doing at 4 p.m. on Wednesday?" in court.

And as jobs go, I would say that one would qualify as one of the most important that would qualify as a pretty good excuse where you are without question needed on a daily basis and it has nothing to do with money or a paycheck.
Seriously, do you want the President on a jury for some ridiculous lawsuit or theft trail? He gets enough grief for doing something as frivolous as taking 5 minutes to fill out an NCAA bracket.

[J from Michigan]

No, I wouldn't want a sitting President in a jury pool. (And I think it's cool that he filled out a bracket.)
But what about a Senator, or a Mayor.

Commission based sales person vs. salaried employee?

At what point does the importance of a job become a valid excuse... and why is the threat of personal loss, less important than that excuse?

[Harold Mansfield]

I don't think the job is a valid excuse for most people. Everyone has a job. But many elected officials get a pass.

You can't have a mayor on a jury if he appointed the D.A. You can't have a Senator that is on the Arms Services Committee under oath in a local municipal court.

They all can and do serve before and after their public office, but rarely do any serve during. They aren't exempt, they just have really good excuses.

When the current President was called for jury duty in Chicago, his excuse was that he was busy running the free world, 2 wars and preparing his State of the Union address.
When you have an excuse like that, you will probably be excused too.

I don't think there is any set guidelines, it's going to be up to the opinion of the court. If you are the only doctor at a tax dollar funded free clinic and state law stipulates that a licensed physician be on duty at all times, then that's probably another good one.

Serving in active duty military is probably a good one also, although I'm sure those guys would love to come back home for jury duty.
Needing constant medical attention would probably pass too, but again, probably a person that would love to not be attached to a lung machine for the rest of his life and would love to be able to serve on a jury.

But for the average "Joe", I gotta work is probably not going to fly. Everyone say's that.
If you think of all of the people that can't and would probably give a pinky finger to be able to do it, our inconveniences about it seem a little trivial.

[Spider]

...Presidents Bush and Obama both got out of jury duty.
At what point does "the job" become relative for the rest of us?It seems pretty obvious to me. A sitting president and a past president, and a few other offices, would exert so much influence in the jury room that the verdict would not be the opinion of the twelve jurymen. I think if any one person could exert so much influence to distort or sway the rest of the jury, that person should be excuse.

[Harold Mansfield]

It seems pretty obvious to me. A sitting president and a past president, and a few other offices, would exert so much influence in the jury room that the verdict would not be the opinion of the twelve jurymen. I think if any one person could exert so much influence to distort or sway the rest of the jury, that person should be excuse.

Never even thought about it that way. Also a good point. Not to mention the spectacle that it would cause with having to accommodate for a President's Secret Service detail, and the security measures that they would have to take. It would actually be a waste of time and money and more trouble than it's worth.

[billbenson]

Talked with a friend of mine who is a trial attorney and he gave me a strategy. Funny thing is he was on jury duty when I called him last week. Things like being a biggot won't help in many of the long cases like insurance settlements as they look for people with a college education and could care less about political or personal predjuces. Also, pretty much everybody but Steve B tries to get out of jury duty during the selection process. The judge and attorney's know this and disregard most comments that appear to be common ways of trying to get out of it. Joining the kkk probably won't help you in getting off of jury duty.


But I don't think anything you have said has been tqken out of context, has it? Or been misconstrued?

Spider, you know that I'm digging myself out of a hole because of the 99 dot com crash that ended my career. I HAVE to do anything I can to get myself out of debt. I owe the IRS and my supplier a bunch of money and you know that. Once that is done I'm fat dumb and happy. If I have a good year, that could happen this year or at least get close to it. Comments that lead others to believe otherwise (Dan in this case) ARE inappropriate.

[Spider]

I apologize for anything that was out of place, Bill. I'm glad to see that progress is being made.

[Blessed]

I've never served on a jury - I'm not anxious to do it either - although I wouldn't shirk the duty, it would cost me parking, gas and $70/day for child care, but I suppose I could do it. However, I do some work in the news field - previously as an editor of a weekly alternative paper, now as a freelance reporter (who has been inactive for awhile so that won't keep me out of the jury box right now!) the attorney's never want a news-person in the jury box so every time I've been called to serve, I've also been excused.

Bill I can relate with your position - sounds like you are making good progress, hopefully by next year this won't be an issue! We're down to just having a small mortgage and no other debt - it is a liberating feeling.