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Harold Mansfield
01-26-2011, 10:54 AM
I hate having this talk with clients. You know the one where they learn a few terms or heard about something from a friend and ask you about it?

Recently, a client started asking questions about how the web works and how other companies do things and it was sobering to say the least.

They obviously hadn't done much homework and were still in the euphoria that the web is easy and everything is drag and drop, plug and play and everyone is building communities with millions of users because people on the web are just standing by with their credit cards, waiting to be a part of the next new thing...and we are going to make all kinds of money.

Basically they are young, but somehow living in the 90's. College educated, but they apparently only teach the success stories in college. (I'd get my money back).

Just to give an example, they had no idea that large websites are run on whole buildings of servers, and data centers. They thought something like Facebook was the same and could be run like any other website and the internet was just this magical power source where all you need is a dream and a computer.

Yeah. It's that bad.
I dodged the specific questions by being as vague as possible for a while, but it started to seem as if she was beginning to question how much I really knew about all of this..when what I was actually trying to do is NOT scare the crap out of her with things that she didn't need to worry about yet. So I finally had to start answering her questions.

So we had the talk...everything from SEO, Google, Clickjacking, affiliate scams, different kinds of hosting, malware, copyright infringement, click bombs, cookie stuffing and so on, even some history of the internet and .coms back in the 90's , and the whole culture of how everyone was throwing money at this new thing called "the internet", and how most failed and why.

It was like when my grandfather told us about the war. Seemed like yesterday to me, but when talking to a 20 something year old, it feels like you are talking about ancient history.

Needless to say it scared the crap out of her and in one conversation the web went from the greatest invention and commerce platform since the wheel and the stone quarter, to the wild, wild west with bullets flying everywhere, criminals robbing everyone, and women and children running down the street crying.

Now I'm having a hard time talking her down from the ledge. We don't even have the website up yet and she is all over the place in a million different directions trying to compensate for every little thing and not concentrating on anything enough to get it done.

Like I say, I hate having that talk. It's like seeing the look on a kids face when they find out that there is no Santa Clause.

Have you guys ever had to splash a dose of reality on someone that wasn't expecting it?
And once you get them to reality, how do you get them back to the excitement that they had when they thought it was going to be easy?

Spider
01-26-2011, 11:50 AM
Had to chuckle.

I have no answer for you, but thought you'd like to know that you entertained me for a few minutes.

KristineS
01-26-2011, 12:52 PM
It's a tough one. There are a lot of people out there, even today, who think that simply putting up a website will bring the dough rolling in. I'm not sure what method for correcting this misconception works best. I think sometimes the only thing to do is to give it to them straight, and then make sure you emphasize all the great things a website can do. Sure creating and maintaining a site, much less building on that converts as it is supposed to is a tough thing, but there are rewards. A website is still one of the best tools most businesses have. I think you just have to help your client find a balance between what's likely to happen, what isn't likely to happen and what she wants to happen.

Harold Mansfield
01-26-2011, 01:00 PM
Had to chuckle.

I have no answer for you, but thought you'd like to know that you entertained me for a few minutes.

Probably should have put that in a blog post, huh? It's actually as funny to me a it sounds, but I know I need to be a little more compassionate and ease her fears.


It's a tough one. There are a lot of people out there, even today, who think that simply putting up a website will bring the dough rolling in. I'm not sure what method for correcting this misconception works best. I think sometimes the only thing to do is to give it to them straight, and then make sure you emphasize all the great things a website can do. Sure creating and maintaining a site, much less building on that converts as it is supposed to is a tough thing, but there are rewards. A website is still one of the best tools most businesses have. I think you just have to help your client find a balance between what's likely to happen, what isn't likely to happen and what she wants to happen.

Yep, that's where we are now..in the "I found this in Google. It was written in 2005, but it still works right?"

It's almost cute. Like the curiousness of a puppy when you first bring him home. In between that time where you first roll around on the floor with him with the new toy you just purchased for him, and when you pick up his first poop on your new carpeting. After you pick up that poop, you never look at him the same again.

Patrysha
01-26-2011, 01:44 PM
I've been lucky enough to not have had to deal with this yet. Another offline consultant was telling me how one of her prospective clients was so misinformed that she thought one just put up a website and that somehow she would get money from every visitor to it...

Harold Mansfield
01-26-2011, 02:06 PM
Many of my friends think that too. They'll say something like "You have 20 websites?! You must be making all kinds of money." with no clue on exactly how it is done or actually works.

vangogh
01-26-2011, 03:04 PM
I've had similar talks, though I don't think I've ever frightened anyone. Maybe shattered some illusions, but I don't think I left people on the ledge. Usually when I have to have this talk I tend not to take the person on as a client. Seems like it leads to more trouble than it's worth when you have to hold someone's hand every step of the way. Maybe not for everyone, but I find it very draining and I find my work for all clients begins to suffer when some needs so much hand holding.

Harold Mansfield
01-26-2011, 03:28 PM
I've had similar talks, though I don't think I've ever frightened anyone. Maybe shattered some illusions, but I don't think I left people on the ledge. Usually when I have to have this talk I tend not to take the person on as a client. Seems like it leads to more trouble than it's worth when you have to hold someone's hand every step of the way. Maybe not for everyone, but I find it very draining and I find my work for all clients begins to suffer when some needs so much hand holding.

I recognize them early on and always charge accordingly. I haven't overcharged or misjudged anyone yet. It always ends up that I was right to add a few hours consulting and training to the fee.

vangogh
01-26-2011, 04:17 PM
I've tried that a few times, but never could manage to charge enough to make it worthwhile to me. I'm not suggesting you or others can't find a way, but it wasn't something I could make work and it wasn't something I was all that interested in making work. Assuming we're talking about the same kind of people, they tend to be people I try to keep out of my personal life for a variety of reasons. Money, no matter how much, wasn't enough of an incentive to bring them on as clients.

Harold Mansfield
01-26-2011, 07:23 PM
Got them back now. Calm and on track in the present.
No more thinking about how they are going to afford to build enough servers and datacenters to run a Facebook type site, until they actually get a Facebook type site.
Got them to stop doing the accounting for fees that they don't have, from members that don't exist yet.
No more thinking about how much they can make with a million visitors, back down to earth thinking about the first thousand.

vangogh
01-26-2011, 10:47 PM
Or the first 100. It's funny how people worry about the money they don't need, especially when it only comes up after a time when presumably they'd be making enough money off all the people who created the need for additional spending.

cbscreative
01-27-2011, 12:30 PM
Funny thread. It reminds me of a situation I had come up last month where I had the rare occurrence of losing a client. Like you guys, I've gotten pretty good at screening them and scaring them off BEFORE they become clients so I don't end up losing them later.

I had one slip through the cracks and began the job last August. It was a fairly new company and a brand new domain for the web site I was designing for it (domain was registered at the start of the job). Even though I did my usual job of explaining how the Internet is not some magical place where people would just start calling him wanting to open their wallets, it didn't take long into the job before I detected trouble.

Most of the things I requested were not provided, and pretty much every suggestion I made to do additional marketing to support the web site was rejected. It became apparent that this web site had to perform well above the cooperation I was getting to meet those expectations. I was finally advised that he decided not to continue. Ironically the email arrived on my birthday. By that time it was such a relief that I considered it a nice birthday present.

He conveniently waited until after an invoice was submitted to advise me of this decision which means I lost money (still unpaid). That's something else I rarely experience any more.

So Harold, if you do scare them off, which I always try to do in advance, count it as a blessing.

jamesray50
01-27-2011, 09:29 PM
I've been lucky enough to not have had to deal with this yet. Another offline consultant was telling me how one of her prospective clients was so misinformed that she thought one just put up a website and that somehow she would get money from every visitor to it...

There are lots of scams out there that tell us that is all we have to do. They even show us their spreadsheets with the money they made from their website. They put up their website, go to bed, look in the bank account the next morning, and voila, there's money in it.

Patrysha
01-27-2011, 09:50 PM
Well...that scenario kind of is possible...but only after tons of advance work. It's not quite as overnight as the final results might indicate...a launch day only looks easy on the outside.

Harold Mansfield
01-28-2011, 10:20 AM
There are lots of scams out there that tell us that is all we have to do. They even show us their spreadsheets with the money they made from their website. They put up their website, go to bed, look in the bank account the next morning, and voila, there's money in it.

Just for future reference for anyone that happens to read this. They are all scams. It's peoples ignorance of the web as some great financial mystery that allows them to continue selling this garbage.
People like Jeff Paul and his "Shortcut to Internet Millions" are as crooked as a guy in an old prospectors outfit trying to sell you the rights to a hidden vein of undiscovered gold in the Sierra Nevada Mountains. Flash forward 100 years and this is the exact same scam.

"No Computer skills needed!" C'mon! Really? That's like saying "Be a championship NASCAR driver. You don't even have to know how to drive."

Just like back then people didn't know anything about Gold or the geology of how it is created, they just knew that some people had struck it rich. This is the same thing. People don't know anything about the web, marketing or even business..they just heard that some people had struck it rich.

Their game is turnover. By the time you figure out these people are taking you for a ride and stop paying them, they will have already recruited another batch of suckers to take your place. Just like that old prospector will sell that deed to that mine 100, 1000 or as many times as he can find people with hope, and dreams in their eyes of the "good life".

What they are really selling to is hope, greed and desperation. Nothing else. It's an emotional sell. Just look at the commercials. All the right words. All the right images. All perfectly positioned to make you want it and make it look easy. Jeff Paul even goes as far as having actors act as actual success stories who signed up and were immediately making $10k, $50K and upwards of $100k a month with no knowledge or experience at all, and if you watch closely... NO PRODUCT! Just mysterious Internet money. I mean this guy just said "Screw it. I'm going to pull out every buzz word and make it as ridiculous and over the top as possible."...and people believe it!

If you look at his commercials and turn the sound down, he obviously studied infomercials. You would think at any moment Tom Vu (who is in jail) is going to pop up with a bunch of hookers on his arm shouting "Look at me. If I can make million. You can too", while Jack La lane and his giggly sidekick stand by the pool juicing rocks and tree bark while doing push ups, with Richard Simmons in the background sweatin' to Aretha Franklin songs shouting "You go girl!" to a bunch of determined fat ladies in colorful stirrup pants and head bands.

You have to ask yourself. "If this guy is such an internet genius, why is he selling this on TV and not online?" If his method was so powerful, you would think that he could sell his own stuff on the web, and not just tell you how to sell yours. He has no online ads, articles, [real] reviews ( except for scam reports)..nothing!

Just like a food commercial shows steaming, plates with shiny, brightly colored food on it. Just the right stuff to make you hungry.
Don't ever fall for them. There are no special secrets and no one has a special formula that they are to willing to share with 1 million of their closest friends out of the goodness of their heart for $49.95. Or, "if you act now, we'll send you the extra special secret guide to 'On Demand Cash'. The book that other marketers don't want you to know about. Shhhh! "

Give me a break.

Dan Furman
01-28-2011, 10:44 AM
I get this sort of thing with SEO / keywords

For example, I get told now and again something like "I'll need this page/site to rank high, so make sure you get my keywords in". As if just keywords are going to rank anyone with any type of competition. I try to tell them that yes, you do need keywords as a base for your ranking strategy, but if there's any competition out there at all, keywords lose their importance, as everyone is likely using the same 100 or so. So if you are all using the same 100 keywords, something else has to come into play.

Many people really don't want to hear that. They more want a "business in a box" type of solution.

Dan Furman
01-28-2011, 10:47 AM
Or the first 100. It's funny how people worry about the money they don't need, especially when it only comes up after a time when presumably they'd be making enough money off all the people who created the need for additional spending.

This is somewhat akin to my usual advice for someone starting out - "go make some money, THEN worry about the perfect logo / offices / payroll / etc. Don't worry about millions - go make one dollar first".

vangogh
01-28-2011, 11:02 AM
But how can I make my first dollar when I don't have the money it takes to support the one million customers I may never have. :)

greenoak
01-28-2011, 12:57 PM
you must be very skilled and persuasive eborg...to even get them to hear you..... usually in the throes of a new venture that reality talk is not wanted....
im the gift world so many go in totally under the money and just dont have a chance....im with them on forums and cant get it across, even this simple math point:: if you have a 20,000 or 30,000 inventory and turn it 4 times , which would be pretty good, thats not going to make you any real money........

Harold Mansfield
01-28-2011, 05:57 PM
you must be very skilled and persuasive eborg...to even get them to hear you..... usually in the throes of a new venture that reality talk is not wanted....


I don't know if I have any "skill". Some of it is also self serving. I get a lot of referrals..people that see my tag on another website or ask "who did your site?". I'd hate for someone to associate me with a project that has no chance or have someone say "You would think that their web person would have told them...."

The biggest thing is that most people don't have a clue that their idea is not original or don't comprehend the massive size of the web.
Sites for existing businesses are easier since they already have some business experience and skills.

Harold Mansfield
01-28-2011, 11:06 PM
Just wanted to add that the FTC has been cracking down on such scam artists as Jeff Paul and other TV marketers that have been taking advantage of the economic downturn to prey on people's desperation.
Jeff Paul and is partners were actually named in the FTC Press release back in 2009:


John Beck/Mentoring of America, two principals, and three purported “inventors” marketed three get-rich-quick schemes, duping hundreds of thousands of consumers into paying approximately $300 million. The defendants marketed “John Beck’s Free & Clear Real Estate System,” “John Alexander’s Real Estate Riches in 14 Days,” and “Jeff Paul’s Shortcuts to Internet Millions.” The defendants allegedly made false and unsubstantiated claims about potential earnings for users of these systems.

They used frequently aired infomercials to sell the systems for $39.95 and then contacted the purchasers via telemarketing to offer “personal coaching services,” which cost several thousand dollars and purportedly would enhance their ability to earn money quickly and easily using the systems. In addition, all purchasers were signed up for continuity programs that cost an additional $39.95 per month, but which were not adequately disclosed to consumers. Some consumers also continued receiving unwanted sales calls after they told the defendants’ telemarketers to stop calling. This case was filed in the U.S. District Court for the Central District of California.

There are others. Many I'm sure you will recognize.
This one was HUGE. The ads were all over the place and a lot of people fell for it. I even had friends calling me asking if I knew anything about this new "Google thing" where people are making all of this money. A couple of friends sent money even though I strongly advised against it.


Google Money Tree, its principals, and related entities allegedly misrepresented that they were affiliated with Google and lured consumers into divulging their financial account information by advertising a low-cost kit that they said would enable consumers to earn $100,000 in six months. They then failed to adequately disclose that the fee for the kit would trigger monthly charges of $72.21, the complaint states. This case was filed in the U.S. District Court for the District of Nevada.

It's called "Operation Shortchange":
FTC Cracks Down on Scammers Trying to Take Advantage of the Economic Downturn (http://www.ftc.gov/opa/2009/07/shortchange.shtm)

KristineS
02-02-2011, 02:16 PM
I don't know, I'm always torn about these things. On one hand, the guys who are putting these scams out there are crooks, pure and simple. On the other hand, why don't the people who fall for it do their research? If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is, and you'll probably be able to find that out if you spend half an hour doing some research. I know there are people who are desperate, and will seize at any life raft that appears to come by, but the reality is that there's no shortcut. It's the same with weight loss. You can lose weight if you just eat carrots and gravel, and you'll lose weight fast, but it's not sustainable and if you think about it for a minute, you'll realize that it isn't very good for you. Scammers are crooks, but a lot of the scams can be quickly seen for what they are if people will just take a moment to think.

jamesray50
02-03-2011, 07:10 AM
I don't know, I'm always torn about these things. On one hand, the guys who are putting these scams out there are crooks, pure and simple. On the other hand, why don't the people who fall for it do their research? If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is, and you'll probably be able to find that out if you spend half an hour doing some research. I know there are people who are desperate, and will seize at any life raft that appears to come by, but the reality is that there's no shortcut. It's the same with weight loss. You can lose weight if you just eat carrots and gravel, and you'll lose weight fast, but it's not sustainable and if you think about it for a minute, you'll realize that it isn't very good for you. Scammers are crooks, but a lot of the scams can be quickly seen for what they are if people will just take a moment to think.

Like I've said before, my Dad falls for all of them. He gets all the emails promising millions of dollars. The emails even goes in his spam folder, but he thinks they are legitimate. He will show them to me and ask my opinion. I have to argue with him and prove to him that they are scams. My dad is a highly intelligent person so it is hard for me to understand why he thinks these are real. He thinks he will eventually find one that is real. He is 86 years old and I think part of it is because he doesn't have anything to leave me or my brother after he dies, and he is worried about what will happen to my mom after he dies, his income is the only income she receives. But, at least he doesn't send anyone any money.

KristineS
02-03-2011, 11:18 AM
Like I've said before, my Dad falls for all of them. He gets all the emails promising millions of dollars. The emails even goes in his spam folder, but he thinks they are legitimate. He will show them to me and ask my opinion. I have to argue with him and prove to him that they are scams. My dad is a highly intelligent person so it is hard for me to understand why he thinks these are real. He thinks he will eventually find one that is real. He is 86 years old and I think part of it is because he doesn't have anything to leave me or my brother after he dies, and he is worried about what will happen to my mom after he dies, his income is the only income she receives. But, at least he doesn't send anyone any money.

I know that older people are often prey for a lot of these schemes. My grandmother was too. Especially as their minds get a little less sharp, they tend to fall for things that they might not have fallen for in the past. I'm not so much talking about the elderly as I am about the kids looking for get rich schemes or the middle aged people you see occasionally who spent their family's life savings on some wild scheme. People do get tricked and fooled and there are a lot of groups, the mentally challenged, the elderly to name two that do get preyed on by the unscrupulous, but there are also people who are just looking to get rich without working for it, and those people I don't have a lot of sympathy for.

Harold Mansfield
02-04-2011, 01:49 PM
My Grandmother throws money at get rich schemes the old fashioned way, the 3 & 4 digit street number and Atlantic City. At least there (AC) you can get a show, buffet and some free drinks while you are throwing money away. And the odds are better. At least in the casino you have a chance (albeit slim). Some people actually do cash out.
Unlike "Secret Internet Formulas" and traffic schemes where no one has ever cashed out because they technically can't work.

Patrysha
02-04-2011, 06:42 PM
Unlike "Secret Internet Formulas" and traffic schemes where no one has ever cashed out because they technically can't work.

But not all information products on the topics of internet marketing or traffic are junk. There are ways to make a great deal of money through the internet. You have to have the right work ethic (it's not get rich quick...ever) in order for any of it to work. MANY people say these things are scams, but the truth is that they weren't willing to put in the work...and actually apply any of the information they learn.

I recently saw a video that featured one of my very early clients. He went to a high priced marketing seminar and was actually picked out and got one on one advice from a huge marketer/copywriter...and it was wicked good advice. After I saw that video I went to his site and found he'd applied none of it...a year later and it was still much as I'd originally wrote most of it...they'd updated the design and a few of the photos but had integrated NONE of the advice that he had gotten at that very high priced marketing seminar.

Harold Mansfield
02-04-2011, 07:04 PM
No, everything isn't a scam. You just need to do your homework. Just like mortgage "remodification" (which is the big buzz word in the states these days). Lot's of scams, but there are some legitimate businesses that can help you in that regard.

Anytime I hear "secret", "easy" or "free targeted traffic" pertaining to the internet. I run the other way....oh yeah and "Thousands of backlinks".

Patrysha
02-04-2011, 07:07 PM
Exactly. There is a reason the ancients (or the lawyers) coined the phrase "caveat emptor"

Spider
02-05-2011, 09:35 AM
But not all information products on the topics of internet marketing or traffic are junk. There are ways to make a great deal of money through the internet. You have to have the right work ethic (it's not get rich quick...ever) in order for any of it to work. MANY people say these things are scams, but the truth is that they weren't willing to put in the work...and actually apply any of the information they learn.
.. I recently saw a video that featured one of my very early clients. He went to a high priced marketing seminar and was actually picked out and got one on one advice from a huge marketer/copywriter...and it was wicked good advice. After I saw that video I went to his site and found he'd applied none of it...a year later and it was still much as I'd originally wrote most of it...they'd updated the design and a few of the photos but had integrated NONE of the advice that he had gotten at that very high priced marketing seminar.I think Patrysha raises a hugely important point, here. Not only as far as advertsing is concerned and web-stuff. I refer to the whole concept of labelling something a scam when the reason it doesn't work is not the product but the purchaser. I venture to suggest that there are relatively few real scams out there (e-mail spam aside), but there are a host of people who seek advice and buy programs and never implement them, and then cry, "Scam!"

I have heard people call Anthiny Robbins a charlatan and poo-poo the whole self-improvement industry, but you only have to watch a couple of videos (like Breakthrough with Tony Robbins - Series Preview: Breakthrough - Video - NBC.com (http://www.nbc.com/breakthrough-with-tony-robbins/video/series-preview-breakthrough/1239219)

... and read or listen to some of the program material to see the logical sense of it. I know people who spend thousands of dollars every year going to his seminars - they swear by his stuff, and they are as poor as they ever were because they don't implement. They are gung-ho for three days, then revert to their old bad habits for the rest of the year.

I see that in my practice all the time. I know that anyone can be as rich and successful as they want to be, and they know how to do it - I mean, it's not like you have to learn anything new - but very few people put into practice what they already know.