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KristineS
09-25-2008, 03:30 PM
I don't yet do a lot of freelancing, but I do write professionally on behalf of the companies for whom I work. A lot of people that I know through forums, blogs, etc. know that I'm a writer. Every so often one of them will ask my opinion on a piece of writing they've done or ask for my help on creating a piece of writing. I don't mind doing it, and I often help, but there's always a little part of me that says "hey, wait, I usually get paid for doing this."

If you're a copywriter, or offer any sort of service, where do you draw the line? When do you say, I'm sorry, I need to charge for this service? Do you have more of a tendency to help out friends rather than strangers?

I'm really not sure how I should handle this. I'd love to hear how the rest of you manage it.

Dan Furman
09-25-2008, 05:50 PM
I sometimes give away a small service to strangers - for example, I had a college student send me an application letter that she wanted edited. I was in a good mood, she was nice, and it only took me about twenty minutes, so I went ahead and did it - she was surprised when I sent it back and said "no charge"... hey, you never know, maybe someday she's in a position to hire a writer for a big job.

But that stuff aside, I really don't do freebies anymore. I just don't have the time. I mean, listen - if my brother REALLY needed an important letter for something, I'd do it. But spruce up a friend's flier? Write a salesletter or a website for free? No can do. I simply do not have the time.

Now, this was pretty easy for me - in my "real life" I set very clear boundaries, and can be quite selfish with my time (for example, don't ask me for a ride to/from the airport so you can cheap out on paying for parking! I did that stuff when I was 22, but no more... and I'll reciprocate by not asking anyone myself.)

But truth be told, I almost never get asked to do free work, even online. Perhaps I put out the vibe that freebies aren't part of the deal?? :)

orion_joel
09-25-2008, 10:33 PM
I do a little bit of free work for an occasional person or so. However generally in the long run it doesn't end up being free work. Often it is more i do some work, but then even though i say no charge they will give me something in place.

One example is a website i work on fairly regularly, for the dancing instructor that i use to do classes with. Over the time that i was going to his classes, after i started working on his website, he did not charge me for the classes. While initially this probably added up to a sizable amount in my favor, It has i would say more then anything swung back, however it does not take a lot of time and i generally find he is not to picky it is more something big he want's which get's done in one hit rather then lots of little tiny annoying moves and changes.

Blessed
09-26-2008, 07:18 AM
I give opinions to people I feel like I know - that I've met online or that I really do know in "real life" at no charge - once I touch a project I say that I'll have to charge. Like Dan their are exceptions to this rule occasionally - if something takes less than half an hour and the people are really nice and I'm feeling generous and I'm earning money from other sources, I don't charge.

Family & close friends (I can only think of one or two that would get work for free from me) I'll do some stuff for free for, but I usually have a project I want help with that they can help me with in exchange that I get all excited and tell them about up front when they ask for help with whatever... if they don't want to help me, they either offer to pay (and I charge them a reduced rate) or they back off and I don't do their work and there are no hard feelings. If they do want to help me - they get the same attention and dedication my paying customers get. - for example, my brother-in-law does cabinets, he needed new business cards - I have an antique child-sized rocking chair that was my Aunts, then mine and now it's Lil Sugar's - in exchange for my time designing his cards he re-glued all the joints on the chair and made it sturdy again - he paid for the printing and if he needed to buy stuff to fix my chair with I would have paid him for that. - He's happy, I'm happy and we both have something we need and when the next family member comes along and needs cards and knows that I did my BIL's cards, they also know that he fixed a chair for me in exchange. My Hubby's best friend does remodeling work and needed some flyers - I didn't charge him because he helped build our shed in the backyard, including providing a lot of the materials (scrap leftover from other jobs) another friend of ours, a painter needed business cards and a logo redone, he didn't have time to help us with anything we needed and knows (and respects) my policy so asked up front what the cost would be, I charged him and it was fine - no hard feelings, no misunderstandings.

I do things for free, no strings attached, for my church and draw the line there. It really helps to have boundaries - that way you don't feel guilty when you charge and you don't have to be mean to keep from being taken advantage of.

KristineS
09-26-2008, 08:21 AM
It really helps to have boundaries - that way you don't feel guilty when you charge and you don't have to be mean to keep from being taken advantage of.

Very good point, Blessed, and the way that I want to do things. If I draw the lines in advance then I will know where they are and be able to tell others too.

orion_joel
09-27-2008, 12:59 AM
I think a lot of the time that people's perception of the value of your service can have a lot to do with weather they come looking for reduced or free services. Generally i find that there is quite a lot of people that do not put a very high value on time, and find a lot of people that are willing to pay for physical product's but then when it comes to time they want discounts or for friends and family want it for cheap or free.

Of course this is not everyone, and much of it will come back to what perception you put out on what is involved, and what it has taken for you to be capable of offering the service.

KristineS
09-27-2008, 12:22 PM
I think it tends to depend on what you do as well. People aren't generally going to ask a contractor to build a shed for free or ask a doctor to do an exam for free. A lot of people will ask a writer or marketer for free help though.

I'm guessing the perception of the value of the service determines whether or not people feel justified in asking for a freebie. I know there are a lot of people out there who don't understand the value of good marketing and writing. Perhaps those of us in that profession need to do some educating.

Dan Furman
09-29-2008, 11:49 AM
I think it tends to depend on what you do as well. People aren't generally going to ask a contractor to build a shed for free or ask a doctor to do an exam for free. A lot of people will ask a writer or marketer for free help though.

I'm guessing the perception of the value of the service determines whether or not people feel justified in asking for a freebie. I know there are a lot of people out there who don't understand the value of good marketing and writing. Perhaps those of us in that profession need to do some educating.

Truth be told, it's always been this way. Tons of people feel that if you aren't working with tools / sweating, it's not really "work".

KristineS
09-29-2008, 12:43 PM
Sadly, I think you're right about that, Dan. I do, however, also know a lot of people who think that anyone can create a Marketing plan.

Who knows, educating people about what a good, expert Marketing strategy can do might make a difference.

Blessed
09-30-2008, 10:31 PM
Truth be told, it's always been this way. Tons of people feel that if you aren't working with tools / sweating, it's not really "work".

Oh yes... I deal with this all the time - people (usually family...) call and think I have all day to help them with something or to just sit around and talk because surely I'm just sitting around in my jammies eating bonbons and surfing the 'net since I'm working for myself from home... if they only understood how a day really goes by!

SteveC
10-01-2008, 04:02 AM
If you get paid for providing a service you should rarely if at all give it away and if you do you should only do so if it benefits you in some way... it's a hard lesson to learn but look at it this way... if you do not value your services enough to charge how will other people value your services?

Me... when we use copywriters we associate cost with how good they are... more often than not... especially with sales copywriters...

KristineS
10-01-2008, 12:07 PM
If you get paid for providing a service you should rarely if at all give it away and if you do you should only do so if it benefits you in some way... it's a hard lesson to learn but look at it this way... if you do not value your services enough to charge how will other people value your services?



That's so true, Steve. If you don't value the service you offer how can you expect other people to value it?

Blessed
10-01-2008, 03:15 PM
If you get paid for providing a service you should rarely if at all give it away and if you do you should only do so if it benefits you in some way... it's a hard lesson to learn but look at it this way... if you do not value your services enough to charge how will other people value your services?

That's exactly right & why I started asking for favors in exchange for my services from family members and close friends. Those who really do need something from me and who have sought-out skills themselves are readily willing to barter with me. My husband likes it too because I barter off parts of his "honey-do list" :D

For people who are not friends or family members I prefer to just deal in cash rather than messing with the accounting of the bartering system. It's just simpler.

BillR
10-03-2008, 01:52 PM
I can relate to this.

My favorite t-shirt of all time says "NO, I will NOT fix your computer".

My family thinks that because I do enterprise/large company software consulting that I can fix their computers. There's really no relationship. I mean - I CAN fix their computer....but I'd rather not. Frankly most of the time I tell them to take it in to someone because it is just too much of a pain in the butt for me to deal with.

Plus I have a wife. And a toddler. And a business. Just those three things take a LOT of my time.

orion_joel
10-05-2008, 03:07 AM
Bill, i can definitely relate to the computer thing. So many people think that if you spend time working with or selling computer's you are going to have endless time to look at and fix their computer. This is very often not true.

Even when i was working as a computer technician and getting a reasonable rate doing so, i did not really like fixing computer's that much. I preferred to install new thing's or relocate stuff and do the things that generally did not require pulling stuff apart or trying to reinstall windows and make it look and work exactly as it did before reinstalling. While most people would end up paying they often questioned the amount of time it took to do something.

vangogh
10-07-2008, 01:19 AM
Yeah, I get asked to fix people's computers all the time. I'll help friends and some family, but in general I'm not going to spend the time assuming I even know how to fix it.

Just to throw a different view into this thread, I think there are times when it makes perfect sense to give away your services for free. Many service businesses rely on a portfolio of previous work. When you're starting out you don't have that portfolio s giving away services free or low cost can still make financial sense as offers you a chance to show what you can do.

A similar concept would be to offer your work free to a charitable cause. The charity itself might not pay, but many others who see your work might then hire you. Along the same idea would be to do free work for a company in order to attach your name to their brand. If you wrote the copy for a big name company and your copy achieved its goals the company would probably hire you on in the future. If it became known you wrote the copy, others companies would probably call too.

The above ideas do have a common theme to them in that while you're giving away your services you're also getting a certain amount of free marketing in return. Sometimes you want to think beyond the immediate one to one return and look at the bigger picture.

KristineS
10-07-2008, 12:44 PM
You make a good point, vangogh, and one that I use all the time when marketing our companies. A lot of industry magazines want articles. They don't pay you, but your company gets mentioned, they'll usually mention your website and you build up goodwill with the editors. The next time you have a press release or something that needs to run, they'll give you more prominent play because you helped them.

orion_joel
10-07-2008, 08:20 PM
I am starting to get the feeling that maybe giving away your services for free, is maybe something that is more classed as marketing then anything else. Of course depending on what the service is and how giving it away can help your business.

While something like fixing a friends computer may have a fairly low value in this respect, because you are inevitably going to be relying on potential word of mouth advertising which you may get from the person anyway. Where as writing articles for a magazine, could have a much larger potential, where you would most likely have your details at the end of the article. Plus you get on better terms with the publisher as Kristine mentioned.

I mean in both respects the outcome may be totally turned around maybe the friend who has asked you to fix his computer, owns a multi-million dollar company. So he decides to get you in for his needs in his business. Or maybe the article that you wrote for the magazine, got published and the magazine only had a very small distribution and in reality has no real value.

So really i think it comes down to evaluating every situation. Of course you need to use the information that you know to make your decision, however it can sometimes work out very different.

KristineS
10-07-2008, 08:30 PM
So really i think it comes down to evaluating every situation. Of course you need to use the information that you know to make your decision, however it can sometimes work out very different.

I think you hit the nail right on the head Joel, and this is a point that a lot of people fail to take into account when they're paying for Marketing. You have to do a cost-benefit analysis. I would never advocate giving your services away at random. There are times, however, when doing so can be to your benefit. The trick is to be able to recognize those times.

vangogh
10-08-2008, 12:56 AM
Yep. It depends what you're giving away and who you're giving it to. I certainly wouldn't say giving something away is always a good idea and in some cases makes no sense. But there are times when you can look at it as marketing.

Think of a restaurant. Assume the food and ambiance is really good and anyone who eats there is likely to eat there again and again. It might make sense to offer a free meal to anyone on their first visit. Over time the one free meal would lead to a full restaurant.

Online many people give away free content in order to build a following of loyal readers who are receptive to other offers.

But you have to watch your giveaways. Some are just giving something away without getting anything in return.

BillR
10-09-2008, 11:54 AM
Think of a restaurant. Assume the food and ambiance is really good and anyone who eats there is likely to eat there again and again.

This actually happened to me. In 1996 I was living in Minneapolis and a new "Old Chicago" restaurant opened in our neighborhood.

They mailed out 1 "Free pizza of your choice valid ONLY on this date" coupon to every mailbox within about 10 square blocks. They staggered the dates and the first week they gave away a lot of pizza.

We went back a lot of course.

Also, because my roommates and I were are about 22 at the time we probably paid for that "free" pizza many times over with the amount of beer we'd drink (which scares me now to even consider doing again....).

vangogh
10-09-2008, 07:31 PM
A perfect example of how giving away something for free ended up making a lot of money for a business.

I'm guessing they were very busy on the dates where the coupons were valid. They might have taken a loss on those days, but I bet you weren't the only ones who came back and paid the next time.

orion_joel
10-09-2008, 09:29 PM
It sounds like if they did take a loss it was a loss they probably calculated into the marketing budget, i would hope.

vangogh
10-09-2008, 11:29 PM
I would think the loss only temporary. It sounds like a great way to give away something for what ultimately became a very positive return.

orion_joel
10-10-2008, 07:44 PM
It would essentially come down to the cost to get a new customer is the price of the free pizza. While the life time value of these customers should hopefully eclipse the value of the initial give away.