In bound links

[Spider]

Okay - so inbound links are necessary for better serps positioning. I get it - but what I don't got is the time or inclination to get these inbound links.

I am considering spending $400 on the following--

http: // www. forumlinkbuilding.com/view/link_building_services?spn12_2350offpr9_10

Any comments, advice, suggestions?

[greenoak]

here is a site with tons and tons of inbound links....http://theoldpaintedcottage.com/pages/cottagemonth_enter.htm. she has done somethng so huge....its inside her site ... spotlighting a business or home every month...its famous and has a waiting list... and good press... .......and all of them would be linking back to her im sure....and for others in her industry...like me.... going to her site and seeing the real thing, other places in the looks we like, is just great... about the best content out there and i surf a lot!!! .... ive put links to her on my blog several timnes...its just so juicy..and inspiring to my potential customers......
is there some real life thing you could have on your site?...where real businesses would share their plots and stories? ...like having fun with business or good ideas in action...~~~ some really juicy monthly feature...showing your ideals in action.... reality ...it would be a good reason for businesses to come back to your site..and maybe even get you some natural links.... .. get some real life stories on there is my idea for getting more inbound links..natural links.....
her blog and site might be one of the few in my part of the business world that i would guess is actually making money....

[Spider]

Thanks, Ann. That sure sounds like a good idea, and it also sounds rather time-consuming. Now, if I could systemize it so it doesn't take as much time, I think we might have a goer, there!

[vangogh]

Stay away from that link building service. Did you notice their name? They're basically going to spam forums on your behalf. A large number of spammers we get here are companies like the one you linked to. I'll be removing the link back to them momentarily since there's no reason we should promote them.

Getting links does take work and it also takes time. There isn't any way around that.


but what I don't got is the time or inclination to get these inbound links.

Tough. You need both time and inclination to be successful in anything. Links are no different. If you don't want to build links you have to hire someone to do the work, which is obviously how this thread started. But consider is $400 equal to how much time or inclination you'd have to put in on your own. I suspect the time and inclination worth a lot more and so if you're going to hire someone, hire someone who isn't promising wealth for a pittance. And please don't hire a company that goes around spamming forums.

[Harold Mansfield]

Okay - so inbound links are necessary for better serps positioning. I get it - but what I don't got is the time or inclination to get these inbound links.

I am considering spending $400 on the following--

Links From PR9 Sites. Unique Link Building Service. (http://www.forumlinkbuilding.com/view/link_building_services?spn12_2350offpr9_10)

Any comments, advice, suggestions?

Yep, getting links is time consuming, and tedious. Everybody hates it. However, I do not suggest any link building service and I don't think that this is the holy grail to better positioning that you think it's going to be and I wouldn't send $400 to Russia or India or where ever they are, for it.

I agree with VG...I don't care what they say in the sales page, link building services basically spam the web with your link. They don't own thousands of web properties in which to place your link.
What they do is use software to spam comment sections, forums, bookmarking, and free blog and Pligg sites to place your link. They can't guarantee the longevity of your link because webmasters are constantly looking to clean their sites of them.
My opinion is it's a waste of money and I wouldn't be comfortable letting anyone place links around the web on my behalf. One wrong move could get your site banned by Google or sent to the back of the sandbox.

I think there are other things that you can do with the money, and there are other things that you should concentrate on that need to be done first before you spend money on SEO.
JMO

Edited:
Just checked up their own site and it's just like I thought:
Link popularity for www.forumlinkbuilding.com


Google Yahoo! AllTheWeb Total
115 322 322 759

DMOZ.org listed? - not listed.
Google Directory listed? - not listed
Yahoo! Directory listed? - yes
Domain age? - 3 years 1 months 6 days (According to Whois created on 17.11.2007).
Domain history? - yes (2 results).


Google Pagerank for: forumlinkbuilding.com 3/10


Their own site isn't tanked that high and I can't seem to find those people that are supposedly testimonials anywhere on those company websites.

[Spider]

Good. Thanks. That's why I posted here first. However, there must be a legitimate automated service available - does anyone know of one?

Up until recently, my main site was stuck around #95 at Google for the search term "Business Coach" (USA locality. It is #1 with my browser set at Houston location.) Now, I accept that 'business coach' is a rather generic and therefore competitive search term, but I need to be higher than #95. I submitted the site on one of these free Submission apps to 15 or so SEs.(I generally use AddMe, but this time, I think it was iSubmit, or something like that) and my serp position has jumped to around #75 and has been consistently there for the past week or two.

Now, that's not a bad jump, but still not good enough. I might consider a paid service to submit to more search engines and directories as the free one has certainly made some difference. Okay, I know - as long as one is in Google, Bing and Yahoo, you've got 98% of the search traffic covered, but it's positioning in the major SEs that submission to the minor SEs seems to give.

How can I accept the comment, "I don't think that this [link building] is the holy grail to better positioning that you think it's going to be," when you guys have been telling me the reason I don't have better positioning is because I lack relevant inbound links? VG even went to the trouble to compare my link quantity with that of another coaching site to prove the point.

Sure, it's not the only thing - I'm working on other things. I am having my pictures upgraded (although I am still pretty sure the quality of my pictures won't affect the serps position.) It is something for which I received considerable flak, so it is being done. Likewise, the inbound links. Surely there's someone who has created an application that is not spam. That's what I am looking for in this thread. If truly, no automation is possible in this regard, is there anyone - or does anyone know of someone - who provides this service manually? I'd be grateful for the referral.

[Spider]

...there are other things that you should concentrate on that need to be done first before you spend money on SEO...What other things, if they haven't been mentioned already?

[billbenson]

Also, one really good link is better than 100 lousy links. Write a really good article on your site every now and then for link generation. Systems like the one you posted will all of a sudden give you a ton of links, mostly ones you don't want. That is a flag to G and may get your site banned.

Think:

Quality links
unique quality content
fresh content frequently
large site with continuous new pages
keywords in the important tags and good html

[Harold Mansfield]

Let me tackle the first one first.
There are some semi automatic ways and I spoke on some of the ones I use in this thread:
http://www.small-business-forum.net/search-engine-optimization/4082-how-do-you-get-links-your-website.html

Nothing is fully automated. The tools that I use help, but I still have to set them up, do keyword research and follow up with the long term program of providing content that people want to link over the long haul.
Self linking (meaning all of the tools and tricks to make your own links) only helps so much. What you want is natural linking. That's why people blog and have blogs in their websites. That's why Wordpress (along with it's SEO plugins) is so popular.


What other things, if they haven't been mentioned already?
You really don't want to hear this part because I have been saying it to you for 2 years. All of the things I see you struggle with including page structure, coding, organization, SEO, having a blog that can help draw traffic, navigation, and properly optimizing each of your pages separately and so many other things are all things that could be handled if you used Wordpress for your website.

All of those things make a difference when Google crawls your site. It's not just the links, it's all of those things , 90% of that wouldn't be an issue anymore and you would just be fine tuning things. You wouldn't be using tables anymore. Your style would be in a CSS file instead of trying to hard code everything. Simple plug ins would submit your site maps, SEO plugin would make optimizing your pages and description easier, and you would have an RSS feed to syndicate your content around the web (more links).

You can't ignore all of these things. I (we) keep telling you that unless you are a Design professional, Wordpress is the best out of the box, SEO friendly, web publishing platform and CMS anywhere on the planet for people who are self publishing, and you can make it look like and do anything you want.

People aren't using it just because it's flexible, and easy to learn. They also use it because the search engines love it! And there are add ons for every aspect of managing, and promoting your website.
You are trying to do everything by hand in a world where no one else is doing it like that anymore. That's why you can't compete.
If you want something automated, you keep ignoring the obvious:

When you publish with Wordpress , you new content is automatically pinged across the web.
Your RSS feed is automatically updated where ever it is.
You can email your subscribers immediately.
Plug ins can auto syndicate your content to Linked In, Facebook, and Twitter.
Plug ins can give your readers tools to quickly share your content with others.
A simple Plug in (All in one SEO), once installed with your input can do on page SEO for your whole site.
There are plug ins to increase page views by showing related content.
Site maps, trackbacks, tags..all of the things that other people are using and have, that you don't have. And what you do have you are working twice as hard as everyone else to implement.

If you aren't going to learn how to code all of that stuff in, then you need to use a platform that automatically does it for you.
Simple HTML all by itself built on notepad and nothing else is not going to cut it anymore on today's web, especially not for the things that you want to do.
Most of the things that you ask about, Wordpress does naturally or there is an add on that does it easily.

These are the tools and functions that others are using on the web and I don't care how many links you buy, you can't complete with those things. as is. It all adds up and is some of the reason that other sites are more visible than yours. The internet has evolved. We aren't using Aliweb or W3Catalog anymore.

I don't say this just because I work with Wordpress. I don't recommend it for every situation. But I have never seen a more prime candidate that would benefit more from using it than you.

So before you spend any money on stuff like links, you need to get your site up to par with your competitors and start using all of the other tools and functions that are integral to your SEO.
That's my harsh honesty.

I know you don't like Wordpress and have decided that it holds no value for you and don't want to take the time to learn it. But you know what...there are a few things that I didn't feel like learning, but I needed them to be competitive. So I suck it up and do what is going to help me be successful. And what I can't learn fast enough or do well enough I find someone that does and hire them (when I can).

That's life on the web. Keep up or don't expect to win anything. You can't get so vested in a way of doing things that you refuse to learn or change for years, in a medium that changes daily.
You just can't. None of us can. we all had/have to evolve with the web as it evolves. What I did 3 years ago, is not effective or competitive anymore and no matter what I do, I can't make it so.

It's just not a place where you can afford to stand still and refuse to evolve.

[vangogh]

there must be a legitimate automated service available

Well the forum link builder is legitimate. It's a real business and I'm sure they do exactly what they say they do. It's just ineffective. You aren't going to see the results they promise.

Think about marketing in general. Can you automate it? Could you automate the create of the print copy or a radio spot or a television commercial? To some degree you probably can, but for most of it you can't. SEO and link building are no different. With the automated link building you're strategy is going after as many of the least effective links as possible. There's a general guideline where the easier it is to get a link the less value that link will have. Certainly not 100% true, but it's a good guideline to follow.

So how can you build links? You could get some of these low quality links as part of your strategy. I wouldn't say there's anything wrong with that, unless of course those links are gained by spammer forums and blogs and the like.

I think the better strategy is to start by building a site worth visiting and worth sharing. That's not easy and it's not quick, but it is effective. Most people will tell you they have great sites with great content. Most people are wrong. The majority of sites online hold little interest for anyone. You have to be really honest with yourself when it comes to the quality of your own site. By the way none of that is specific directed at you. It's more directed at anyone in general.

A few years ago I came across some advice about blogs, though it's equally applicable to any content on your site. If it wasn't your blog would you read it? You have to be really honest in answering, which isn't easy. Not long after reading the advice I answered "no" when it came to my own blog so I switched up what I write about and put considerably more time working on it. Now it is something I would read even if it wasn't mine. As a not so strange consequence a growing number of others enjoy reading it too and some of those people now link back to the site without my asking or doing anything specific for the link.

You still need to give your content a push to get it in front of others. There's no if you build it they will come going on.

In giving your content a push think about who you'd like to push it to. Who reading your content is more likely to link to it should they enjoy it? One group of people who will probably link to you are bloggers. It's one reason why building relationships with other bloggers by commenting and linking to them first can be beneficial.

In my case I discovered that some design blogs had community sections where they want you to submit the url of a post, which they then link to. That put me in front of the audiences for those sites, most importantly other designers with blogs. Some of them have asked me to write guest posts for them, which leads to links back to my site. I now have links from some highly trafficked sites, which are on the exact same topic as my site. My content has landed in front of people who didn't know me, but are clearly targeted toward liking what my site is about.

You could also try social media sites like Twitter, Facebook, and LinkedIn to connect with others who'll link to you or seek other avenues in your industry.

Again not necessarily easy and quick, but effective. Success isn't about quick and easy.

[Business Attorney]

I agree with eborg and vangogh in that the best links are the ones that you get because you have good content. One thing I didn't see mentioned is that Google supposedly considers the relationship of the referring site to the keyword. Thus a link from a business-oriented site will be better for you than a link from a gamers forum, and a link from a business directory will generally be better than a link from a general directory. The services that promise 1,000 forum links or 1,000 directory links are seldom that discriminating.

[Spider]

All very interesting - thank you. I agree with just about everything that has been said. But none of it answers the question, I'm afraid. Which is....

Do you know of anyone who has created an application that is not spam that builds or helps build inbound links? If automation is impossible, is there anyone - or does anyone know of someone - who provides this service manually?

So far, it looks like the answers are - No-one has written any software to build or help build inbound links that is not spam, and no-one offers a manual service.

Looks like a great opportuity for some enterprising people.

[Harold Mansfield]

All very interesting - thank you. I agree with just about everything that has been said. But none of it answers the question, I'm afraid. Which is....

Do you know of anyone who has created an application that is not spam that builds or helps build inbound links? If automation is impossible, is there anyone - or does anyone know of someone - who provides this service manually?

So far, it looks like the answers are - No-one has written any software to build or help build inbound links that is not spam, and no-one offers a manual service.

Looks like a great opportuity for some enterprising people.

Yes, there are plenty of scripts.
The ones that I use are loaded with sites that have given permission to be listed or follow the guidelines for submission and they are mostly for Pligg sites and directories.

Any script that targets forums, comments, and free blog networks (and there are plenty of those too) is spamming. Plain and simple. I've seen it first hand playing around with some Network sites and they are relentless. Using proxies, multiple IP addresses, you name it.

I have gone as far as blocking IP addresses of entire countries to thwart them. Most times I have turned off blog creation because they will not stop. It's a plague. And it's how these "services" (especially the ones outside of the U.S) work. I've seen one person (or script) create 300 blogs on one of my sites in a matter of an hour. I delete them, block the IP address and the throw away emails and they come right back the next day and do it again...sometimes within the hour.
That's why most of these "link building " services operate outside of the U.S...India, Pakistan, Russia, China, Sri Lanka, etc.

The biggest problem with those type of scripts is, you are identifying yourself by leaving your link and if you piss of the wrong webmaster, they will report your link for spamming to Google, your hosting company and to any affiliate network on your site. I've done it many times.

That's why you need to be careful who you let build links on your behalf.

[Spider]

Yes, there are plenty of scripts. The ones that I use are loaded with sites that have given permission to be listed ....Okay. Where will I find these scripts?

[Harold Mansfield]

...
There are some semi automatic ways and I spoke on some of the ones I use in this thread:
http://www.small-business-forum.net/search-engine-optimization/4082-how-do-you-get-links-your-website.html

..or you can just search Google. It's not like they are hidden.

I caution you to read up on using them. And to use them sparingly. Google has changed since I first started using these 3 years ago and will consider building links too fast a red flag.
I found the directory submitter too:
digiXMAS Directory Submitter (http://www.digixmas.com/directory-submitter.php)

The RSS submitter won't do you any good.

If you remember I also said that lately I build other sites that feeds related information as a way to build some links as well and link from other sites that I own. It's not just one thing and I don't always use these tools, but I have have enough websites to experiment with.
I also said that I spend the most time and energy trying to gain natural links to blog posts or information pages.

Disclaimer: I do not endorse or recommend the use of submitter tools. Make your own decision and Use at your own risk.

[Harold Mansfield]

I probably should mention that you should use an alternative email address to use these tools because many of the accounts that get created require you to click a confirmation link that is sent to you by email.
That also means that you agree to be sent occasional emails to purcahse other products or join paid directories.

[vangogh]

Do you know of anyone who has created an application that is not spam that builds or helps build inbound links? If automation is impossible, is there anyone - or does anyone know of someone - who provides this service manually?

To the first I say be careful. As Harold said these kind of scripts exist. It's also safe to assume that search engines don't like them because they are clear attempts to manipulate search rankings. Some of the scripts may work now, but if Google or the other engines determine any kind of footprint there's a good chance the links won't count in the future or worse your site will be flagged in some way you don't care for.

I'm not saying you can't use these scripts, but I am saying unless you really know what you're doing and understand what the script is doing you may want to avoid them. Also I would expect the majority of scripts you find to be mostly garbage.

As far as hiring someone there are plenty of people you can hire. The limiting factor is going to be how much you're willing to pay for the service. If you're looking for the most links for the least amount of money expect that most of the links will be useless at best and harmful at worst. If you're willing to pay more money you can find a company or individual offering quality services, though most will probably want to start by creating content for you and possibly recoding your site.

[Harold Mansfield]

Just to add to that. If you hire a professional SEO company, they will most certainly want to recode or possibly just redesign your website, and reorganize and edit your content. They can't do what they do if your website is not organized and laid out efficiently to make what they do have any effect.
Hiring someone or paying for a service like that is usually a long term commitment.

[billbenson]

There are black hat webmaster forums that you could hang out on as well. I used to visit them but don't like the ethics of the people there so I don't visit much, although it is a good source of information. You could probably find some scripts there that do what you want. As said above though, you are swimming in dangerous waters. If you don't know what you are doing I'd do this on a throw away site. You really can get your site banned with to many (or an unnatural growth rate) or the wrong links pointing at you.

[Harold Mansfield]

Just wanted to add one more thing. While I have used these methods on many sites, I have also had these domains for a while and ran these scripts on some of them well over a year ago. I also mix it up. Rarely do I use everything together anymore. Things have changed. 3 years ago I could run every script on a new site, throw in a few articles (used to run an article submitter too) and some social bookmarking and get a PR 3-4 by the next update. You can't do that anymore. Now I use them sparingly as a foundation for real links that I try to build over time.

Like Bill said be careful. It's not natural. I wouldn't call them "Black Hat" techniques compared to what's out there today, but certainly a darker shade of gray.

[boisemarketer]

Link building should be an ongoing process. The competition to have high rankings in Google is like a fast moving stream. If you're not moving forward, you're being pushed backwards.

There are many types of inbound links you can collect:
Social Media Profile Links
Social Bookmarking Links
Forum Footer Links
Blog Comment Links
Sponsored Links
Contextual Links

Understand that each and every link you have pointing to your site, which Google finds, is going to scrutinized by their algorithms. At the end of the day a link is a link is a link. But understand that Google will, seemingly at random, give different weight to different inbound links based on several factors. Some links won't count at all.

Your goal is to be continually building a steady stream of inbound links in a natural fashion. If you choose to concentrate 100% on forum links, this appears unnatural. You need to spread your efforts around.

Contextual links (links wrapped around a body of text) will typically have higher value than your website anchor text sitting on a single line. You may consider using a service like ezinearticles.com to establish some very high quality contextual links.

Ezinearticles.com is free, and it will allow you the opportunity to drop in a resource box with your link and appropriate anchor text in the bottom of your submitted articles.

In order to diminish the time Google takes to discover your links, you can always ping the website containing your inbound link. I prefer pingomatic.com. Try not to abuse this though, use it wisely and sparingly (once a week or so).

For advanced link building strategies, you can Youtube the concept of a link pyramid. This should help you put some order to your efforts.

Good luck!

[vangogh]

Link building should be an ongoing process.

Exactly. Everything in regards to seo is an ongoing process. It's just marketing in the end. You never stop as long as you're in business, assuming of course you see search engines as one of your marketing channels. I've never been the active link builder type in the sense of seeking out specific links. Instead link build is something that's integrated with my overall marketing online. I don't for example post here specifically for the signature link, but I do add the signature link so when I post the link is there. Same thing in regards to setting up profiles on social sites, etc.

That's not to say you shouldn't seek out places where you can get links. It's more that my practice is to be aware when an opportunity exists. Another example is writing guests articles/posts for other sites. My main motivation isn't the link, but I'll always make sure any article/post I write for another site includes links back to my site(s).


In order to diminish the time Google takes to discover your links, you can always ping the website containing your inbound link.

I'm not sure how important pinging is any more. Depends on the site of course, but most content management systems take care of this automatically. The idea is sound though. I'll promote pages on other sites that link back to my site in order to strengthen those links flowing into my site.

[yanni]

I hate people that try to answer a question with another link to a website, but this website really does a good job explain "white hat" link building tactics. viperchill.com/link-building/ - This guy is a pure shredder.

[vangogh]

Glen definitely knows his stuff and his site is certainly worth linking to.

[CloptonCapital]

The more my rankings go up, the more I realize that Google is truthful in saying page rank is overrated. Inbound links are great but focus on quality over quantity. I have about 50 edu backlinks that are worth more than thousands of nofollow spam comment links.

[Capitalist]

There are black hat webmaster forums that you could hang out on as well. I used to visit them but don't like the ethics of the people there so I don't visit much, although it is a good source of information. You could probably find some scripts there that do what you want. As said above though, you are swimming in dangerous waters. If you don't know what you are doing I'd do this on a throw away site. You really can get your site banned with to many (or an unnatural growth rate) or the wrong links pointing at you.

To be fair, "black hat" typically refers to simply using techniques that the search engines don't agree with. There is nothing illegal or unethical about it, in my opinion - it's just very risky, and a poor foundation for a real business.

That said, many black hat SEOs are the type of people who are counter to *any* authority they come up against, and are more than happy to discuss and perpetrate fraud of any type.

I have used techniques that are considered black hat - content cloaking is a good example. I don't believe doing so was unethical, but it was against Google's policies, and it got that site deindexed in time.

[Capitalist]

For my high-quality sites, I manually create comment links and forum links in relevant areas. An example of this is here, actually - I joined this forum to promote the link I have in my signature right now. As part of that, though, I am committed to making sure the community benefits from my involvement as well. The more helpful I am, the more I earn from the community, and the more eyes are on my links.

There is a fine line to walk here, though. There is nothing I despise more than a "Me too!" post in a thread. Completely worthless. If I don't have something to contribute, I don't post.

For some of my other site, I do have an outsourcer hired through oDesk.com. I pay with $2.50 / hour to create comment links, and they are of fairly low quality overall. I've been having him comment on blogs in his native language, Urdu, recently and that seems to be helping quite a bit. Even low quality backlinks help, though, and his assistance has let me build sites to a stable "platform" so to speak before I begin the serious work of building them out and promoting them within the community.

[vangogh]

There is nothing illegal or unethical about it, in my opinion - it's just very risky, and a poor foundation for a real business.

Very true. I always find it interesting when people attack black hat on the basis of being illegal or unethical. Doing so makes an assumption that search engines somehow set laws and rules for ethical behavior. Black hat is simply a bad strategy for sustaining a business long term. Black hats typically expect their sites will get banned at some point and they'll have to move on to the next one. Don't most wear it as a badge of honor to have had a site banned. Each site exists to extract as much profit as possible before getting banned. The long term strategy is one of continuously building many sites and making the process as automated as possible.


For my high-quality sites, I manually create comment links and forum links in relevant areas. An example of this is here, actually - I joined this forum to promote the link I have in my signature right now. As part of that, though, I am committed to making sure the community benefits from my involvement as well.

And there's nothing wrong with that. As long as you're contributing to the community you should be able to get some benefit back. Hopefully it becomes a win-win. Personally I think the benefits of participating in a forum go beyond signature links and those beyond benefits are worth much more than the links, but there's nothing wrong with getting sig links as a side bonus.

I hate "me too" posts as well, which is why you don't see too many of them here. :)

[billbenson]

I have used techniques that are considered black hat - content cloaking is a good example. I don't believe doing so was unethical, but it was against Google's policies, and it got that site deindexed in time.

I guess it is more the people that were on the "black hat" forums that I thought were unethical, not all of the techniques or all of the forums for that matter. I wouldn't consider cloaking to be a good idea but not unethical. But I think that things like scrapping which also fall under the black hat category IMO are unethical.

[vangogh]

The techniques generally aren't unethical. It's how people use them where it might cross the line. Many of the techniques that go against search engine guidelines do have valid reasons for being used as well as reasons meant only to unfairly manipulate things.

[jamesray50]

Okay. Where will I find these scripts?

You don't give up easily, do you? You are getting good advice, but ignore it, I don't understand. As a business coach I would think you would read all the responses and realize they are telling you the truth and follow their advise.

[jamesray50]

I hate "me too" posts as well, which is why you don't see too many of them here. :)

Do you delete some of them? I am so naive when it comes to link building. I'm still not sure how it works. I don't know how many links I have and don't know where to find out. I do know when someone from this website has looked at my website. And I don't reply to build links. I didn't know replying built links. I reply to help someone, or ask a question, or comment, or welcome someone.

[Harold Mansfield]

You don't give up easily, do you? You are getting good advice, but ignore it, I don't understand. As a business coach I would think you would read all the responses and realize they are telling you the truth and follow their advise.

Welcome to SBF. It's one of our longest running skits.

[Spider]

You don't give up easily, do you? You are getting good advice, but ignore it, I don't understand. As a business coach I would think you would read all the responses and realize they are telling you the truth and follow their advise.I don't understand your comment, Jo Ellen. After everyone tells me not to use linkbuilding services to build links, Harold said he uses scripts and that there are plenty of them, so I asked where will I find them? What's problematic about that?

As to not follow advice - the advice in this thread was to not use linkbuilding services and I haven't - which was why I was following up on Harold's "scripts" comment. So, how am I ignoring the advice given?

But you are right about not giving up easily. I take that as a compliment - Thank you :-)


Added: As a business coach, I recommend to my clients not to accept my advice at face value but to question it, test it, disagree with it and try to disprove it. Only then will they know if it is right for their business - or not, as the case may be. What works for one person doesn't necessarily work for another, and I recommend to you, Jo Ellen - if you will permit me - to not accept any advice from here or anywhere else at face value without questioning it. No-one knows your business like you do, and only you can determine what is best for your business. It is no saving grace to say, during bankruptcy proceedings, that you thought the advice that put you there was good advice!

[vangogh]

Do you delete some of them?

Jo Ellen we try to delete useless posts that don't make an honest attempt to participate in the conversations. Ideally they're deleted before you see them, which is why you may not notice them.

You'll never get a perfectly accurate count of links pointing to your site, but there are tools you can use to check. One is Open Site Explorer (http://www.opensiteexplorer.org/) from SEOmoz. If you have or open an account with Google Webmaster Tools (https://www.google.com/webmasters/tools/), Google will tell you a lot of information about your site, including how many links are pointing to your site.


the advice in this thread was to not use linkbuilding services

I'll add the advice not to use scripts to help you build links. You may have noticed that Harold said the ones he uses specifically target sites that give permission to be listed. Most of for Pligg sites and directories. However neither is likely to provide much benefit. I'm not saying you shouldn't submit to them, but I wouldn't expect to see much benefit to your site.

Harold also said


Any script that targets forums, comments, and free blog networks (and there are plenty of those too) is spamming.

The reality is that any script that claims to be able to build links is only going to get the least of the least links when it comes to their value to your site. They all will carry some risk of tipping you over the spam line. The risk here is greater than the reward. I think Harold understands that line pretty well so he's probably better at making the call when to use and not to use these tools. You've always indicated a very strong dislike of anything even close to spam, so why dabble in tools like these.

Regardless of the spam question though, automated tools like these aren't going to provide much value. Anything you can do by pushing a few buttons can just as easily be done by your competition so it's not exactly a way to separate yourself from them. The links you want are the ones that your competition will have a hard time replicating.

[Harold Mansfield]

I have to go back and read what I said. I remember linking to a few like Bookmarking Demon. I should say that I don't use them like I used to a couple of years ago. These days I use mostly social networking to try and attract readers of individual articles and go for natural linking and RSS feed submission.
If and when I do use any scripts it is very sparingly.

As far as traffic goes, none of it comes from any link building that I have done with scripts like Bookmarking Demon. It all comes from Search Engines, Facebook, Twitter, Natural Links, and Link Partnerships...in that order.

[vangogh]

And if I'm not mistaken a few years ago you pushed the envelop a little more in regards to seo and the line that crosses into spam. I think the sites you were promoting also had a different business model than Frederick's. What works for one type of site, doesn't necessarily work with another. I think you have enough experience with these kind of tools to understand when and where to use them. Frederick doesn't have that same experience.

It's like how most of us wouldn't think twice when seeing the cliche commercial for a local used car salesman wearing the cheap plaid jacket and coming across a little on the sleazy side. Not that we'll run out to buy a car from that guy, but we've seen it so many times before in that industry that it's no big deal. Take that same guy and place him in a commercial for your local bank and it's a different story.

[Spider]

I'm not using any scripts, either.

[Harold Mansfield]

And if I'm not mistaken a few years ago you pushed the envelop a little more in regards to seo and the line that crosses into spam.
I don't think I ever crossed the spam line ( or if I did, I was too ignorant to know it) , but there have been times that I hit a button and closed my eyes hoping that I wasn't screwing up my site.

Also, a few years back it used to take a little extra time and effort to get indexed. Sometimes it could take up to a week even if you submitted mannually. I used the Bookmarking scripts mainly to get the ball rolling...to show that SE's that I am out there since spiders run on connections..they follow existing connections like electrical circuits. They were more apt to find you easier if you were connected to a site that is older and crawled regularly.

These days it's a lot easier. A new site, especially one with an RSS feed will get indexed into Google pretty quickly so the need to "get the ball rolling" isn't there like it used to be.
3 years ago, when I was chasing PR, I could run a few scripts, drop a few articles and bookmark on Social Bookmarking sites like Digg and come up with a PR 3-4 on the next update. Those days are looong gone and I haven't checked page rank on anything in over 2 years.

Building links this way has never done anything for traffic. Ever. These days I concentrate more on natural links that will bring me interested readers. That means putting out content that my target demographic will find interesting, informative or entertaining and getting it in front of them and letting nature take it's course with natural linking. If people like it, they will link to it which brings you traffic and readers. No tool can do that.

[vangogh]

I'm not using any scripts, either.

True, but you are asking where you can get some, which implies you want to try using them. I'm just trying to point out why it's probably not a good idea to use them so you can spend your time more wisely.

[Spider]

That was over three months ago. I am not using them, have not used them, do not intend to use them - on the strength of the advice of people in this thread.

[Harold Mansfield]

I look at things much differently today. If I'm not picking up links naturally then I can narrow it down to one of two things:
Either my content is not as interesting as I thought it was (including my design), or
My promotion of the content needs some work.

If it's good and you get it out there, someone is going to link to it.

[vangogh]

That was over three months ago.

My bad. I forgot this was an older thread that recently gained new life. D'oh!

[billbenson]

I suspect that there are readers of this thread that don't really know what a script is or where to find them. hotscripts.com is probably the largest source of scripts; free or non-free. Scripts are just programs that run on your web site. As an example, WordPress is just a bunch of scripts in the php language. The majority of the ones you will find are php which runs on most web sites.

If you want to add an email program to your website, for example, there are hundreds of them out there, many free. A calendar, quote generator, etc. Many of these scripts are extremely useful. I have also modified many over the years to do things I need. A programmer may be able to take a script and alter it to do some great things for your web site. That can be far less expensive than have the programmer start from scratch. For that matter, WordPress plugins are just scripts.

I just don't want anybody to get the idea that scripts are inherently bad. Scripts such as the link building ones mentioned above can be.

[jamesray50]

I don't understand your comment, Jo Ellen. After everyone tells me not to use linkbuilding services to build links, Harold said he uses scripts and that there are plenty of them, so I asked where will I find them? What's problematic about that?

As to not follow advice - the advice in this thread was to not use linkbuilding services and I haven't - which was why I was following up on Harold's "scripts" comment. So, how am I ignoring the advice given?

I'm sorry Frederick - I guess I just didn't understand what you were asking and the way the thread was going. So you are looking for a script that will build links? Instead of a link building service. And wouldn't that still be an automated way of getting links that Google doesn't like? Sorry for being so naive, I'm still learning all this computer stuff.

[jamesray50]

You'll never get a perfectly accurate count of links pointing to your site, but there are tools you can use to check. One is Open Site Explorer (http://www.opensiteexplorer.org/) from SEOmoz. If you have or open an account with Google Webmaster Tools (https://www.google.com/webmasters/tools/), Google will tell you a lot of information about your site, including how many links are pointing to your site.

What are nofolllow links? And I cannot get Google to verify my website. I have tried all four options and I can't seem to get it right. I have tried over and over and over. I just cannot figure out what I am doing wrong. I have looked at their example, but cannot figure it out. I am just not good at stuff like this.

[vangogh]

A nofollow link is a link that adds rel="nofollow" to the html code for the link. It was introduced originally as a way to combat spam, but has evolved as Google later decided to treat it in different ways.

The basic idea is if you're adding a link to your content, but you don't really trust the page on the other side of the link or don't want to suggest you do for whatever reason, you ad rel=nofollow, which tells the search engines not to consider the link a recommendation by you for the page you're linking to. Search engines then aren't supposed to have that link pass any value to the page being linked so it shouldn't help that page rank better.

It's used often in comments on blogs. WordPress has rel=nofollow added to all links in comments by default. That's because while anyone can add a link the site owner doesn't know at the moment the link is added whether or not it's something to be trusted.

That's the general idea, but it's become more complex over the years and some SEOs try to use it to control how PageRank (link value, link equity, link juice) flows within their sites. Some sites like Wikipedia add nofollow to every link pointing to a site outside of Wikipedia. Google now also demands site owners add nofollow to any link which is an ad or paid link.

For the most part though most people only need to understand the basic concept that nofollow is suggesting you don't vouch for the page being linked to.

[Business Attorney]

Some sites like Wikipedia add nofollow to every link pointing to a site outside of Wikipedia.

Wikipedia is one site where most links are well-vetted and SHOULD carry some authority, but before nofollow came along it seemed like everyone and their brother tried to slip a link into articles. Editors spent a tremendous amount of time policing spammy links. So when the search engines came up with the nofollow, the Wikipedia community reached a consensus that every external link should be nofollow.

In a sense, even that is a small victory for the SEO spammers because the legitimate competitors of their spammy sites are deprived of the ability to get link juice from Wikipedia.

It's just one more way that SEO-types attempting to game the system makes the internet less useful to all users.

[Harold Mansfield]

One of my sites is linked to from a Wikipedia article (no I didn't do it) . I'm sure it has no PR juice, but it does get some traffic and that's all the juice I need.

[vangogh]

Wikipedia is one site where most links are well-vetted and SHOULD carry some authority, but before nofollow came along it seemed like everyone and their brother tried to slip a link into articles.

Which I think is a big reason why those links are nofollowed now. People used to try to spam Wikipedia all the time. I think the spam went down quickly after nofollow was added.