When to Review and When Not To Review

[KristineS]

I've had this come up a few times recently so I thought I'd solicit some opinions. I post on a number of forums and other posters often talk about their websites. Sometimes it is a straight up request for a review, and those are easy to handle. The person is looking for an opinion and helpful, constructive criticism.

Other times someone posts their site and they're clearly pleased with it, and the site is crap. At the end of their post they put "what do you think" or something, but it's clear they're just really wanting to hear applause and cheers. In those cases, if you genuinely think the site is crap, would you tell the person?

[Harold Mansfield]

That's a good one!
I have a hard time doing reviews because I'm not completely comfortable with my own sites and don't always practice what I preach, although I do with clients.

I try and relay my concerns in the most diplomatic way possible without offending the person. When you do something yourself, reviews can be taken very personally.
It's only if the person is just completely oblivious to what I'm trying to tell them, or just flat out refuses to listen will I get a little more blunt.

I don't participate in review threads on other forums for specifically that reason. Most of them just flat out suck. Some people don't even try.

On other forums I have no problem crushing dreams and making little girls cry, because it's mostly kids that think they are going to make easy money. But it's a different attitude when dealing with business people trying to get their game on. Besides, I know what it's like to stare at something for so long that you over look obvious things that stand out to everyone else, or to get caught up in your own head of what you mean, but no one else gets it.

You want to be as encouraging as possible, but not let them think that they can actually compete with what they have. That's even more of a dis-service.

Examples work well as a wake up call. I know they do with me. I am constantly comparing my site to others and questioning whether or not I am good enough.
I actually compare every website I see, and when I see something just great, that's usually when I start gearing up for a redesign, or to launch a new site with what I've learned.

There are plenty of times when I can say to myself "I wouldn't have done it like, but , it does look good." and still give credit.
Some people are just completely out of the loop as to what passes for professionalism and a good first impression on the web. But then again, some people don't like my sites or style either.

Nothing you can do about that, just try and help when you can.

[Spider]

One of the best things I learned from Toastmasters is the Toastmaster's sandwich. (Toastmasters is built around the concept of every speech given at a club meeting has an official evaluator, who gives a 2-3 minute verbal evaluation to the meeting plus a written evaluation in a training manual the speaker is following. Public speaking can be very intimidating to even experience speakers and the public evaluation must be done carefully, as I'm sure you can imagine.)

The Toastmaster's sandwich is this - start off the evaluation with something you liked (make something up, if necessary!) Follow with one or two points for improvement - an easy way is "I noticed you did this, I would have done it this other way." Then wrap up with something you especially liked. It's a formula that has saved the feelings of new speakers and given great insight to experienced speakers.

I try to follow the Toastmaster's sandwich when reviewing websites.

[Harold Mansfield]

The Toastmaster's sandwich is this - start off the evaluation with something you liked (make something up, if necessary!) Follow with one or two points for improvement - an easy way is "I noticed you did this, I would have done it this other way." Then wrap up with something you especially liked. It's a formula that has saved the feelings of new speakers and given great insight to experienced speakers.

I try to follow the Toastmaster's sandwich when reviewing websites.

Interesting. I remember having managers throughout my work like that evaluated in this style, mostly in corporate environments where managers are actually trained..not just foot soldiers who were promoted and started managing the next day.

[Harold Mansfield]

A few years ago I posted up one of my first Wordpress sites up for review on another forum. I had stretched my abilities and even incorporated a few things that I had just learned. I spent a lot of time on it getting things just right and was really proud that I had made something online.

The first few reviewers were noobs just like me and gave thumbs up and words of encouragement.
Then a seasoned vet came on and just crushed me. everything I thought was cool, she ripped apart. I think it ended something like, "grow up and start designing for the current century and get back to us".
Yeah, she could have been a little more diplomatic, but, looking back on that site..it was horrible. I mean just bad. But when you have never done anything else, your first looks like a million bucks...to you.

At the time I hadn't read or studied anything about anything. I knew nothing about flow, design, navigation, the fold, load times, browser compatibility, images, white space, color coordination ( I didn't even know where to find colors. I think at the time I knew 3 color codes of blue)...NOTHING.
I just did what I liked and thought was cool based on what little I knew how to do. At first it's fascinating to be able to put in a line of code or drop a plug in somewhere and make it do cool stuff.

Today, I would be embarrassed to even let anyone know that was actually my site.

Even if she had been nicer, it still would have hurt my feelings because I thought that I had done something. I wanted everyone to be as proud as I was of it. But in reality, all I really accomplished was learning how to put something online.

That review is what made me learn how other people do it and why a basic site can be busy as all get up and a million dollar site can sit without any traffic or conversions.
It hurt at the time, but I should have known that I didn't know anything and that it wasn't that easy. If it was, everyone with a computer would be rich.
But it made me want to learn so that I could get better.

Flash forward to 3 years later and people now ask me stuff. I don't log onto that forum as much as this one anymore, but when ever I do there are always 3-5 PM's waiting for me of people that need help or have questions. Actually last night I picked up a quick $30 A.S.D ( Australian Dollars or maybe it's A.U.D) just helping a housewife convert WP to WPMU. Took me all of 2 minutes but she was amazed since she had been trying to get it to work for 3 days. (She actually had a compatibility problem with a plug in that wouldn't deactivate)

Sometimes brutal honesty can be a good thing, but not everyone can step back and learn from it.

[jamesray50]

I don't review websites because I don't know what I'm talking about in terms of SEO and when someone asks for a review I'm assuming they want to know in addition to how the website looks at first glance to a visitor, how it looks to the search engines. When I first completed my website I asked the people on the chat room I am a member of in my industry to review it. For the most part I got good reviews, looks good, great colors, etc. When I joined this forum and read reviews that had been given to other members of their websites, then I knew I would really get the review I was looking for. I wanted honesty. If it was crap, I wanted to know. What good is a crappy website going to do me? I want a professional website that will get me sales, even if it does take time, I still want it.

[Steve B]

I just don't understand this dilemma. If someone asks your opinion, and your opinion is that it is crap why wouldn't you say so in a constructive manner?

I've heard a lot of good things about Toastmaster's over the years, but I'm dissapointed if this is part of their official training "start off the evaluation with something you liked (make something up, if necessary!)". I can understand if you wanted to say "I appreciate it takes a lot of courage to stand up and speak in front of a lot of people ..." But, at least, that's not a lie.

Perhaps I'm a terrible person, but I believe in honesty at all times. Of course, saying nice things is easier, but it doesn't help people get better. This doesn't mean you have to go out of your way to give your opinion if you're not asked for it, but if you are asked specifically for your opinion I think it's appropriate to give it in a polite and constructive manner. If you suspect they really just want to hear applause - you can ignore the post or give them a little surprise that their work might not be as great as they think. They may thank you for it later ...., or not.

[AmyAllen]

Other times someone posts their site and they're clearly pleased with it, and the site is crap. At the end of their post they put "what do you think" or something, but it's clear they're just really wanting to hear applause and cheers. In those cases, if you genuinely think the site is crap, would you tell the person?

Kristine! This is such a pet peeve of mine. They ask for feedback, but as soon as its given they are suddenly defensive of their work.


I have a hard time doing reviews because I'm not completely comfortable with my own sites and don't always practice what I preach, although I do with clients.

Harold - I feel you on that. I'm never happy with my own work, so I feel a little guilty critiquing others.

All in all, I try to be polite - and if there is something nice to say, I will add that in. But lying about a bad site being great will only hurt the person's business in the long run. In my mind - that's far worse than hurting their ego in the short term.

[KristineS]

What sparked this question was a post on another forum I post on. A person put their new site up, kind of more as a "look I have a new site post" and then at the end threw in a "tell me what you think". The people on that forum aren't generally all that web savvy, and most everyone said "oh it's great". I clicked the link and took one look at the site and started to laugh. If you know anything about web design, the site isn't great.

If someone genuinely asks for a review, I'll always be constructive and helpful. My problem is when the person is in more of a gray area, not really asking for a review, but posting a link to a site that needs help. I'm never sure whether it's best to keep my mouth shut, or to tell them what I really think, politely of course, and hope that they'll take it in the spirit intended.

[Harold Mansfield]

People really don't understand how much thought, skill, and knowledge it takes to put something together that is attractive, informative, and competitive. Everyone thinks that "if they build it, they will come".
I see it all the time, people actually figure in how much business they will do online, without any concept of how to do it, except for put up a website.

[Spider]

I just don't understand this dilemma. If someone asks your opinion, and your opinion is that it is crap why wouldn't you say so in a constructive manner?
..I've heard a lot of good things about Toastmaster's over the years, but I'm dissapointed if this is part of their official training "start off the evaluation with something you liked (make something up, if necessary!)". I can understand if you wanted to say "I appreciate it takes a lot of courage to stand up and speak in front of a lot of people ..." But, at least, that's not a lie.
.. Perhaps I'm a terrible person, but I believe in honesty at all times. Of course, saying nice things is easier, but it doesn't help people get better...

Steve - Apologies, I think I misled you a little bit, there. "Start with something you liked..." is Toastmaster training. "Make something up, if necessary," was my contribution. The point is, you can always find something you like, if you try hard enough. And, actually, it does help people get better. If you offer praise only, that doesn't help so much. If you offer criticism only, that doesn't help, either, no matter how honest, polite or caring you try to sound - it just does not get through. The only thing you achieve is being able to say, "Well, at least I was honest." But that does not generally help the other person.

Here's the basis of that. To receive critisism so that it will help, the person must realise that it will help. They must feel themselves able to improve. If the whole feedback is critisism, it's hard to see how improvement is possible, if they can't do anything right. Give a glimmer of hope but saying how something was done well, then they can see that the critisism will help this aspect to a better level like that other aspect that they have already done well.

I have seen new speakers receive a very sound, positive caring evaluation that contained no praise, and they didn't come back. It must be supposed that they gave up any hope of ever becoming a competent speaker, yet they weren't all that bad. That helped them? I have also seen a new speaker who was absolutely terrible but was given an evaluation that had no critisism in it whatsover - was total praise of (for the seasoned speakers) utterly mundane aspects. And that person came back to following meetings and gradually learned the art and was able to accept and use subsequent more critical evaluations. They became good speakers.

It does not serve the person being given the feedback if it is all praise or all critisism. It must be both. I think the same applies to websites and, in fact, any endeavor.

[Harold Mansfield]

I guess it all depends on how you view your role in a situation like a forum. Some may not see a responsibility to respond in a managerial type role, just provide the experience, help and information.
I know on another forum I don't sugar coat anything, I rip right into those hacks and let them know. Like I said, "crushing dreams and making little girls cry". But that is mostly because there is a high rate of arrogance over there that I just feel the need to crush. It's like a battle beetwen the Indian and Paki webmasters against the Americans.

For instance, Dan doesn't sugar coat anything. He's not rude, but he'll just tell you what it is you asked or need to know.

I think we all have a mood of respect around here, no matter how off topic or heated a discussion. I don't think anyone would intentionally set out to be rude.
But sometimes with a review, there can be 30 things that are wrong, or aren't going to work. That can beat anyone's spirits down for a moment.

[Spider]

... sometimes with a review, there can be 30 things that are wrong, or aren't going to work. That can beat anyone's spirits down for a moment.For the post at large, I agree with you, For this point, listing all 30 would likely be discouraging, and it's awfully difficult to try to make improvements when one is discouraged. Thus, criticising all 30 would be counter-productive, no matter how honest the remarks. As I said, best to report on one thing you liked, a couple of things that need improvement and another item you liked. That will give encouragement to improve and the means to improve and the hint that progress is already being made.