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Anne Arbor
11-14-2010, 11:14 PM
I had an idea back in June for a Web application that definitely has some commercial promise. To develop it I need someone who is fairly good at PHP and MySQL, and who can handle some CSS and JavaScript, with AJAX.

It's now November and nothing good has happened since July. I'm often tempted to give up altogether on the idea (but I really, really don't want to).

My first developer started graduate school in August. He got nothing done for two months and I saw that it was only going to get worse. I then found another fellow who actually seemed to be the right guy, but who kept promising me a start date and then never giving me one. A third fellow started work this past week. Within three days he had already gone about 80% over projected initial costs, without letting me know.

I have some money to invest in this, but I don't have money to waste. When people make promises and then don't keep them, I get nervous. It also makes me feel helpless when they do that, and I hate feeling helpless above all else.

I'd like someone who not only is reliable but who also gives me a feeling of reliability. I'd like someone who continues to feel, even after he has started, that I should have some say in all of this too. (I keep getting the feeling that as soon as I agree they should do the work, the project now belongs to them and I don't have any say in anything.)

I really just don't know what to do.

vangogh
11-14-2010, 11:24 PM
First welcome to the forum and sorry to hear about your frustrations.

It sounds to me like the issue is in who you're hiring. There are plenty of professional web developers who will do good work for you. You mentioned the first person you hired left for graduate school. Does that mean you've been looking at college students? Are you choosing developers based mostly on how much they charge? Based on your description it doesn't sound like you've gone to a professional development company. They simply wouldn't treat you the way you've been treated.

Another possibility is in how you've been communicating with the developers you've hired. You should definitely have input like you want, though you would also need to understand that changes you ask for could very well change the cost of the work. It's important for both you and the developer to communicate with each other with the understanding that you might both at times be talking about different things without realizing it.

Ultimately it comes down to you and your developer working together. You both have to be able to trust each other, which is one reason communication is so important. You're the one hiring though. If you don't feel comfortable with a developer and aren't sure if you can trust him or her then you shouldn't hire that person. Keep searching for someone to work with until you find the right person or company.

Unfortunately there are no guarantees. You can mitigate your risks by being a careful shopper when it comes to who you hire.

Anne Arbor
11-15-2010, 12:33 AM
First welcome to the forum and sorry to hear about your frustrations.


Thank you, vangogh. I appreciate both the welcome and the sympathy.



It sounds to me like the issue is in who you're hiring. There are plenty of professional web developers who will do good work for you. You mentioned the first person you hired left for graduate school. Does that mean you've been looking at college students? Are you choosing developers based mostly on how much they charge?


No, I haven't been particularly focused on students. I found the first two fellows at a site devoted to DHTML, and the first one just happened to be headed to graduate school. The others have actually been full-time developers. They have been VW's, I suppose, as opposed to BMW's, if you get my drift.



Based on your description it doesn't sound like you've gone to a professional development company. They simply wouldn't treat you the way you've been treated.


I've preferred to try to find a single freelance developer. Perhaps that's the problem? I somehow dread being involved with a "company." And I'm also concerned that I wouldn't be able to afford one.




Another possibility is in how you've been communicating with the developers you've hired. You should definitely have input like you want, though you would also need to understand that changes you ask for could very well change the cost of the work. It's important for both you and the developer to communicate with each other with the understanding that you might both at times be talking about different things without realizing it.


That's a concern but mostly we haven't even gotten to the point where those could be the issues.



Ultimately it comes down to you and your developer working together. You both have to be able to trust each other, which is one reason communication is so important. You're the one hiring though. If you don't feel comfortable with a developer and aren't sure if you can trust him or her then you shouldn't hire that person. Keep searching for someone to work with until you find the right person or company.


Thank you, vangogh. I appreciate your encouragement and am grateful to have your thoughts.

Steve B
11-15-2010, 12:39 AM
It doesn't sound like you checked any references. You've got to do your homework when you're hiring someone.

By the way, you can use me (and my website) as a reference for Van Gogh's work. We website is Electronic Pet Containment for your Dog in Louisville, KY | Derby's Pet Fence (http://www.DerbysFence.com). Van Gogh (Steve) has been working with me on my site for several years. Most of the concepts on the site came from me and Steve was able to make what I wanted happen. I don't know if he has experience in the specific things you're asking for, but, I'm guessing he probably does. He's easy to work with and you will definitely feel involved in your own website.

Business Attorney
11-15-2010, 01:07 AM
I have had clients who had very good results with developers delivering the work product on time and on budget, and I have had clients whose experience was similar to yours. As vangogh pointed out, I think that in most cases the problem was in the hiring process. People will ask around to find a good auto mechanic, a good dentist, or even a good hair stylist and then will hire a programmer based on the programmer's self-professed talents and experience. If you don't have someone locally who has successfully hired a programmer he or she can recommend, at least ask the programmers for references that you can talk to.

That is not to say that even a company with a good track record can't fall down. I have a client who paid several hundred thousand dollars to have an existing program rewritten for another platform and to have a few features added. After delays that put the project months behind schedule and well over budget with no workable work product in sight, my client finally had to fire the developer.

The other thing to keep in mind is that web application development projects do involve a considerable amount of uncertainty. If you have ever remodeled a kitchen or bathroom, you know that even if you hire an experienced and highly-recommended contractor, it is not unusual for the projects to come in late and over budget. Developing a web application can be at least as complicated as a kitchen remodeling job. An application may have some things that do not work as expected the first time. If you can find a programmer who can write perfect code that covers every possible variation and needs no debugging, never let that person go! On the other hand, a developer who goes 80 percent over budget without communicating with you doesn't seem to be attuned your needs as the person paying the bills. That would worry me.

vangogh
11-15-2010, 02:44 AM
Anne I think it's perfectly fine working with a lone freelancer. I choose not to have larger companies as clients for the same reasons you don't want to hire a larger company. It could be that were simply unlucky. 3 people is not a large sample.

Since Steve mentioned me above as a developer I will let you know I do work with all the technologies you mentioned. I'd need to know the details of your project to know if I could do the job though. Feel free to send me a private message if you want.

No matter who you decide to hire I think communication and trust are going to be the key issues. You really can't know in advance if you're hiring the right person, but you can certainly learn enough about anyone and how you think you'll be able to work together to make an informed decision. One thing you could do is start with a small project where there's not a huge investment on your part. That will give you a chance to see the person you hire in action. If there are parts of your overall project that could be pulled out as small projects maybe you could use them to find the person who'll do most of the work later.

Anne Arbor
11-15-2010, 12:52 PM
VanGogh, I've sent you an email. Tried to send you a PM, but I don't have the required number of posts as yet.

Anne Arbor
11-15-2010, 12:59 PM
Hello, Business Attorney,

Thank you for your reply and advice. I do try, of course, to know something about the people I am hiring. Those I have tried to date, in fact, seem to be reputable guys who do decent work. They have been solo workers, which perhaps adds a layer of uncertainty that I don't deal well with. I'm able to afford their rates, but not to tolerate their working style. So far, however, I've gotten two estimates from more formal firms which have been way out of my ballpark. Thus far, then, it seems to be a choice between the cowboy whom I can afford, but not tolerate; and the suit whom I can't afford. Or something sort of like that. <sigh> Although I have had reason to trust the guys I've dealt with, I haven't actually asked for references. Had I done so, perhaps I would have turned up the fact that these guys chronically run behind schedule? Even knowing that in advance might have been helpful. Thank you again for your reply.

Anne Arbor
11-15-2010, 01:02 PM
Steve, thank you for replying to my post. I'm in the process of contacting Vangogh. A reference like yours is worth so very much. Thank you again.

KristineS
11-15-2010, 01:53 PM
Anne, I'll put in another reference for Vangogh. He has done work on all of my blogs and has been very helpful when I've blown things up, which does happen. He's great to work with, and very helpful.

I can also identify with your frustration about finding someone with which to work. It's often hard to know how someone will be after being hired. Everyone puts on their best face when going through the hiring process. References are a great way to get some indication of how a person will be to work with after the project begins. Also, if you ask for references and the company can't supply any, that may be a pretty good indication that you might want to reconsider working with them.

Steve B
11-16-2010, 07:19 AM
"Those I have tried to date, in fact, seem to be reputable guys"

Well, there's your problem - you shouldn't be trying to "date" these guys! I actually read that wrong at first and got quite a laugh when I figured it out. :)

Harold Mansfield
11-16-2010, 09:17 AM
"Those I have tried to date, in fact, seem to be reputable guys"

Well, there's your problem - you shouldn't be trying to "date" these guys! I actually read that wrong at first and got quite a laugh when I figured it out. :)

HA! I saw that too. That's funny.

But seriously, like everyone already said, there are one man shops or freelancers out there that you will find are reputable and will handle business professionally. Just do your homework on them.
You don't have to accept anyone that is always behind schedule likes it's some kind of trait of programmers. It's not.

Any reputable service provider should be able to give you a realistic time table and stick to it...barring any unforeseen circumstances or changes to the project in mid stream.

Anne Arbor
11-16-2010, 09:51 AM
Gentlemen, everyone keeps urging me to find a reputable provider. No one has suggested how I might do that.

Anne Arbor
11-16-2010, 09:54 AM
KristineS, thank you for your thoughts. I've sent a project description to Vangogh. If he doesn't think he's the right person for the job, and if no one here can suggest someone else, I'm going to try very, very hard to give up. It's always a shame when a good idea bites the dust but I can't keep throwing good time after bad.

Harold Mansfield
11-16-2010, 10:03 AM
Well, you do have to break a lot of eggs.
I can tell you what people ask of me when they are not sure that they want to hire me:

1. References from past clients. Some actually want to speak directly with people, but I draw the line and will provide emails to clients that have given me their permission to be contacted.
2. See past work.

You should also be able to speak with them by phone, which can also give you some clues to their professionalism, what kind of hours they keep, whether or not they are accessible and so on.

I assume that "Mid Hudson Valley" is in the U.S, so I would stick with programmers in the U.S. and Canada so that you will at least be in closely related time zones. If you stick with U.S. programmers you know that you can get litigious if need be.

You should be able to get a work order or contract in writing stating all the aspects of the work that you are hiring them for, and the price stated and time frame for completion.

If you have already hired designers, or web people in the past and were satisfied with their work you could ask them for referrals.

I would stay away from:
Part timers (unless they come with great references)
People out of country
People without websites
People that appear to work too cheap
People that aren't accessible by phone during normal business hours.
People that want alternative payments like Western Union

Usually if you can confirm with past clients that they do good work, and on time and see some examples of past work, it's a step in the right direction.

There are sites like Rent-a coder and Get-a-freelancer that have programmers ready for hire. I haven't used them, nor have I ever worked for them so I can't vouch for their credibility or how easy it is to find a reputable service provider through them, but I assume it's like everything else, just do your due diligence.

If it is truly a good idea, there is no way that I would give up on it just because you are having a hard time finding a programmer.

thewebwriter
12-11-2010, 07:22 PM
If you are having problems finding the right person for the job, go to eLance.com or iFreelance.com both are reputable but there are differences.

From a freelancers point of view, iFreelance may be the better option. Once you have been awarded a project, you can work directly with the client. This is good for the freelancer because the client can become permanent.

From a buyers (Your) point of view, eLance would be a better option because your money is held in escrow until the job is completed and you are satisfied.

The rules remain the same whether you use a freelance organization or find your own service supplier.

state exactly what you want done
state exactly what your budget is
demand involvement via module markers - but don't micro manage.


Review at stages throughout the project. You may wish to pay a percentage at each stage.

When you receive a bid for your project, the supplier should state

exactly what will be done,
give expected completion dates at each stage
request a percentage at each stage.

Some suppliers request money up front. Only do so if they are buying supplies that will ultimately become your property. Work is paid on satisfied delivery.

Changes to the contract mean changes to time and budget. If you want more work to be done, expect to pay for it. If the changes are large, the contract should be renegotiated.

Always ask your supplier for their opinion. We all like to think we know what we want but the person with the skills may know better how to get it. Sometimes you need to come to a compromise.

I personally have had clients requesting high traffic numbers through SEO because they believe that is what they need to have a successful site. I explain the (sometimes) disadvantages of high traffic volume and suggest higher sales through CRO are a better option. I like to explain to my clients, not what to do, but why to do it. the understanding is very beneficial to both sides.

I suggest you ask your supplier why it is being done a certain way and what the benefits are to you.

Hope this helps and good luck.

Dan Furman
12-16-2010, 11:38 PM
I assume that "Mid Hudson Valley" is in the U.S,

Pretty nice part of the US, too :)

Hi Anne - we're practically neighbors (Kingston here)

Anne Arbor
12-16-2010, 11:47 PM
Pretty nice part of the US, too :)

Hi Anne - we're practically neighbors (Kingston here)

Indeed we are, Dan. I live in that little college town about one-half hour to the south of your town. :)

Anne Arbor
12-16-2010, 11:54 PM
Hello, WebWriter,

Thank you for your advice and thoughts. I'm really reluctant to use one of the freelance sites, although I may ultimately be driven to that. I'm new to the whole business of implementing an application and feel constantly very insecure both about answering questions and about knowing who is qualified to do the work and who, frankly, isn't.

My great fear is that I will somehow end up on the hook to pay the money, but I won't have received what I want. That would really be a disaster for me.

How will I know if they've done a good job or not? Does the developer build the app on his own staging site, and then when he thinks it's ready, I try it out?? And (at elance) if it works as promised, then -- and only then -- I pay them?

Anne Arbor
12-17-2010, 12:01 AM
Eborg9,

Thank you so much for all your thoughts. I'm late in thanking you, but I really have appreciated your help.

Everything you wrote has value for me, but I've isolated a few chestnuts below that have made a particular impression on me.




Well, you do have to break a lot of eggs.


It's good to be reminded of this. :)




I would stay away from:
Part timers (unless they come with great references)
People out of country
People without websites
People that appear to work too cheap
People that aren't accessible by phone during normal business hours.
People that want alternative payments like Western Union



These are, I suspect, excellent rules of thumb.




If it is truly a good idea, there is no way that I would give up on it just because you are having a hard time finding a programmer.


I appreciate this almost more than any of the other, very helpful things you have said. Now when I consider giving up - and I regularly do - I remember this, and it is a real help.



I can tell you what people ask of me when they are not sure that they want to hire me:

1. References from past clients. Some actually want to speak directly with people, but I draw the line and will provide emails to clients that have given me their permission to be contacted.
2. See past work.

You should also be able to speak with them by phone, which can also give you some clues to their professionalism, what kind of hours they keep, whether or not they are accessible and so on.

I assume that "Mid Hudson Valley" is in the U.S, so I would stick with programmers in the U.S. and Canada so that you will at least be in closely related time zones. If you stick with U.S. programmers you know that you can get litigious if need be.

You should be able to get a work order or contract in writing stating all the aspects of the work that you are hiring them for, and the price stated and time frame for completion.

If you have already hired designers, or web people in the past and were satisfied with their work you could ask them for referrals.

I would stay away from:
Part timers (unless they come with great references)
People out of country
People without websites
People that appear to work too cheap
People that aren't accessible by phone during normal business hours.
People that want alternative payments like Western Union

Usually if you can confirm with past clients that they do good work, and on time and see some examples of past work, it's a step in the right direction.

There are sites like Rent-a coder and Get-a-freelancer that have programmers ready for hire. I haven't used them, nor have I ever worked for them so I can't vouch for their credibility or how easy it is to find a reputable service provider through them, but I assume it's like everything else, just do your due diligence.

If it is truly a good idea, there is no way that I would give up on it just because you are having a hard time finding a programmer.

Dan Furman
12-17-2010, 12:21 AM
Indeed we are, Dan. I live in that little college town about one-half hour to the south of your town. :)

Staggered down the street there many a night. :)

On a biz note, Eborg's "rules of the thumb" are spot on. Basically, you want someone making a full time living at what they are offering as a skill. However, the sticky part there is that comes with more or less a higher rate (because they're making a full time living at it - it's almost a paradox.) I know in my business, I get asked all the time to write "throwaway" SEO articles for websites... there are places that will do them for $10 / $20 / etc (I suspect they farm out to India or part-time students willing to work for beer money). But to write a nice 500-word article... that's two to three hours work. In owning my own full time biz, I prettymuch have to earn $100+ an hour for my work time. Every week, I get people who cannot fathom that I'd charge that, but that's what hiring a full-time professional costs. I tell people I'm really not worth paying to write throwaway SEO articles that are more for search engines than they are people - if you're going to pay me $300 for an article, it needs to be something for the Huffington post or something like that (which I do regularly).

This price talk is more or less to give you some thoughts on hiring a full-time professional. I do not know what your budget is or what you feel is reasonable, but I do suspect that if you are still having difficulty with this, budget might be one of your roadblocks. If that's the case, some deep research might uncover a gem willing to do this for your budget (but, as you found out, reliability might be an issue). Or you can save up / use credit cards / savings / a million other ways people pay for this kind of thing. If the app is as useful as you think it is, a leap of faith might be in the cards.

jamesray50
12-17-2010, 08:56 PM
Hi Anne,

I just want to say welcome to the group. Aren't they all a good bunch of people? They have already given me a lot of good advice. Good luck with your project, I know you will find the right person if you follow everyone's advice. Just don't give up.

Harold Mansfield
12-18-2010, 09:57 AM
You also may want to narrow down who exactly you are looking for.
There are many types of programmers and dozens of languages in which you can build apps and little web "doo-dads".
If you know what programming language you need, it's easier to narrow in on someone reputable that specializes in it.

Everyone is does not specialize in everything. A PHP programmer may be great at PHP, but horrible or have no knowledge of flash, and a flash programmer may not know anything about C++, or PERL.
"Programmer" is a broad term and if you don't know what specialty you are looking for, you will probably never be able to find it.

thewebwriter
12-20-2010, 11:11 AM
It depends on what you want from your applications. You obviously have some idea when you chose those applications. You will be storing data with PHP/MySQL and you want interactivity with Ajax. Not sure what you want the java script for, but if it is for site navigation or forms, stay with PHP. There is no SEO benefit in javascript.

Some programmers create their software offline, test it (?), then send it to you to test.
Others, will have a development server where you can check to see how it's all coming along.Sometimes an application built in a development environment will not work in the "real" world. Check with your site host whether they handle PHP etc. Most do, but check anyway.

An alternative may be to give the programmer temporary access to your domain and let them build in situ.

Build the project in stages?
Database first so you have some test data to work from.
What do you want the database to store? List these so the programmer knows what fields to build.
What do you want it to retrieve? Test whether you can retrieve everything.
What does it look like when you retrieve it.
Is it a good format?
Yes? go ahead and pay for this stage.

Ajax for interactivity.
What are you interacting with and what should the results be? list them for the programmer.
Does it work the way you asked for it? Yes? go ahead and pay this stage.

Notice I said "Does it work the way you asked for it?" This may be different to what you had in your head. Be specific. If the programmer builds the way you ask, they should be paid.

eLance will hold payment in escrow until you release it. You release a percentage when the work has been delivered "the way you asked for it"

Freelancers on eLance receive feedback for previous work. You need to research who to use. Cheap is seldom best.

Ask that the program be fully annotated.
In six months or six years from now, a new programmer will need to maintain the program. It will be faster, easier, less expensive if they know how it all fits together.
Ask for good nomenclature such as form field names that actually refer to their function. It makes troubleshooting a lot easier, believe me.

Harold Mansfield
12-20-2010, 11:24 AM
I checked out some jobs on some of the "Hire a Freelancer" boards to see what it looked like and I couldn't believe some of the budgets that people were posting for projects (that were completely unrealistic) and how many service providers were bidding and even underbidding to do them.
It was scary. I saw jobs posted for $500 budgets that were easily $2k and up projects.

Of course I know that $500 U.S. goes a long way in India and Pakistan, at least further than it goes in the U.S., but some of them were just ridiculous.
It's like the old game show "Name that Tune".
I wonder what the success rate is for users of those type of sites. I have to believe that people with unrealistically low budgets get screwed a lot.

thewebwriter
12-20-2010, 01:00 PM
You're absolutely right.
Some buyers post low prices either because they want the best at a cut price or they do not understand the value of what they are buying. Too many buyers are of the opinion that a website can be knocked up in a day based on Do-Daddy type advertising.Get a website for $4.99 and be up in 30 minutes, yeah, right. We all know there is much more to it than that and needs explaining in the proposal.

On the other side of the coin are providers, many successful, many new, all trying to earn a crust. Many of these providers do not understand how to negotiate for a project - they try to stay within the bounds of the suggested budget and are willing to undercut each other in the process. The damper on these people are those who can work for less because they live in a lower economic area or they are subsidized by a regular job or a spouse.

I've worked both sides.
On the buyer side, I hired someone to write a javascript program because I didn't have the time. The majority of replies were from India/Pakistan area.The person I picked gave a decent proposal explaining what was entailed and gave an acceptable eta.The program was good and well documented.I would have preferred someone from stateside, but the only one I got didn't show any apptitude or skill in the proposal. They amy have been an excellent programmer but I couldn't tell.

As a provider, I learned very early to charge a decent price but backed it up with good sound reasoning why the charges were higher than others. When bidding for work, you really have to sell the buyers desires back to them. I always made sure I provided fast and excellent service and even helped out with freebies.

Now the majority of my work is referral only with just the odd online bid to keep my hand in.

The success rate of sites whose URL I know but didn't get the job. I sometimes go and look at them and you can see they got what they paid for.

"people with unrealistically low budgets get screwed a lot" Yes they do, on both sides. One doesn't get whatthey thought they wanted and the other worked for peanuts.

Harold Mansfield
12-20-2010, 07:30 PM
I have to believe that a lot of those posters are specifically targeting programmers and designers that are outside the U.S. There is no way that anyone could realistically expect to build a steaming movie site like Netflix for $500-$1000 like one posting that I saw.

Dan Furman
12-20-2010, 10:34 PM
The success rate of sites whose URL I know but didn't get the job. I sometimes go and look at them and you can see they got what they paid for.


Yea, I do this too. And more often than not, they are defunct sites.

Going by your user name, I would assume we're in the same business. Isn't it funny how little some people value copywriting? You want me to write an article that'll take me four hours for $25... sure, I'll get right on that.

thewebwriter
12-21-2010, 09:06 AM
Yea, I do this too. And more often than not, they are defunct sites.

Going by your user name, I would assume we're in the same business. Isn't it funny how little some people value copywriting? You want me to write an article that'll take me four hours for $25... sure, I'll get right on that.

Somewhat. After 20 odd years as DRP/BCP coordinator, I tired of being continually on call. I started freelance copywriting because my previous work involved a lot of procedural and how-to writing plus I've also built several decent websites. Now I only do CRO, mainly on defunct sites. ;-) Picked up some tips from your book. Thanks.

Business Attorney
12-21-2010, 09:23 AM
What is CRO?

thewebwriter
12-21-2010, 09:41 AM
Conversion Rate Optimization.
Using good Search Engine Optimization will get traffic to your website but if your site is yuk or isn't enticing enough for your visitor to take action they will leave. How soon visitors leave, will hurt your ranking. Ranking is based on many factors, one of those being how long a visitor is on a site, how many pages they visit etc. It shows how worthy or unworthy your site is.

To get visitors to stay awhile you need good informative content.

To get visitors to take action, for instance buy a product or fill out a contact form, they need to be enticed. You have to lead them by the hand by maintaining their focus on the action you want them to take. You want to Convert visitors into clients and you can only do that if your website is optimized for that.

A good website isn't about flashy gizmos or large traffic volume, it's about converting the traffic you do have into paying customers.

Dan Furman
12-21-2010, 12:45 PM
Somewhat. After 20 odd years as DRP/BCP coordinator, I tired of being continually on call. I started freelance copywriting because my previous work involved a lot of procedural and how-to writing plus I've also built several decent websites. Now I only do CRO, mainly on defunct sites. ;-) Picked up some tips from your book. Thanks.

Thank YOU :)

Dan Furman
12-21-2010, 12:55 PM
Conversion Rate Optimization.
Using good Search Engine Optimization will get traffic to your website but if your site is yuk or isn't enticing enough for your visitor to take action they will leave. How soon visitors leave, will hurt your ranking. Ranking is based on many factors, one of those being how long a visitor is on a site, how many pages they visit etc. It shows how worthy or unworthy your site is.

To get visitors to stay awhile you need good informative content.

To get visitors to take action, for instance buy a product or fill out a contact form, they need to be enticed. You have to lead them by the hand by maintaining their focus on the action you want them to take. You want to Convert visitors into clients and you can only do that if your website is optimized for that.

A good website isn't about flashy gizmos or large traffic volume, it's about converting the traffic you do have into paying customers.

Yea, this is the angle I use with web copywriting as well. I focus on conversion. Never heard it called CRO before, but I like it (and will try and use it in the future :)

Business Attorney
12-21-2010, 01:14 PM
Thanks for the explanation of CRO. Now, what do you mean by CRO on defunct sites? Do you just mean underperforming sites? If they are really defunct, why do they need CRO (or any content at all, for that matter)?

thewebwriter
12-22-2010, 11:44 AM
Thanks for the explanation of CRO. Now, what do you mean by CRO on defunct sites? Do you just mean underperforming sites?
You're right, defunct isn't the correct word. I picked it up from earlier in the thread. Under performing sites is correct.



If they are really defunct, why do they need CRO (or any content at all, for that matter)?
Because it's their site. Sometimes people just can't let go, other times they may have a really good domain name relevant to their business name or their niche. SE's also add domain age into their algorithm so it is sometimes good to stay with it. Other times, we have to convince them that the whole shebang is totally wrong. Let's get to the drawing board and start again. Doing that is sometimes easier for me and less expensive for the client.

thewebwriter
12-22-2010, 12:12 PM
Yea, this is the angle I use with web copywriting as well. I focus on conversion. Never heard it called CRO before, but I like it (and will try and use it in the future :)
I just did a quick Google to see where I found the phrase Conversion Rate Optimization | Conversion Rate Experts (http://www.conversion-rate-experts.com/) I see it's a registered name so maybe I should coin a new phrase

vangogh
12-22-2010, 12:20 PM
Just an aside: Conversion rate optimization has been around for awhile now. I think it's only in the last few months that the acronym CRO is getting more airplay so to speak. At least I've noticed people using CRO a lot more in recent months.

I'm glad it is getting more talk. For the last few years everything seems to be about traffic as if more traffic is the only way to generate more sales. Yet isn't it better to have one person visit and buy something than it is to have one million visit and leave. Both are important. More traffic is usually a good thing as is a higher conversion rate. Both are also connected. One step in improving conversion rate is improving how targeted your traffic is.

thewebwriter
12-22-2010, 02:12 PM
Just an aside: Conversion rate optimization has been around for awhile now. I think it's only in the last few months that the acronym CRO is getting more airplay so to speak. At least I've noticed people using CRO a lot more in recent months.

I'm glad it is getting more talk. For the last few years everything seems to be about traffic as if more traffic is the only way to generate more sales. Yet isn't it better to have one person visit and buy something than it is to have one million visit and leave. Both are important. More traffic is usually a good thing as is a higher conversion rate. Both are also connected. One step in improving conversion rate is improving how targeted your traffic is.

That's about it, targeted traffic; but even though your traffic is interested in the product doesn't necessarily mean they will buy from you. Sometimes my biggest task is convincing site owners they don't necessarily need more traffic, they need to convert the traffic they already have.

vangogh
12-23-2010, 12:12 PM
I completely agree. Both traffic and conversions are important. For some reason though, most people want to focus solely on the traffic as if more traffic is all you need for success. If 0% of your current traffic is buying there's no reason to believe more traffic is going to buy any more often. I think you have to look at your current situation and decide which will have a better return. Sometimes that will mean improving conversion rate and sometimes that will mean improving traffic. It depends a lot on where you currently are with both.

I'd also add that success is a combination of factors. Focusing too much on one thing at the exclusion of others is usually not the best way to proceed. If your traffic is 0 then improving your conversion rate isn't going to do much. If your rate of conversion is 0 then more traffic isn't going to do much.

KristineS
12-23-2010, 12:16 PM
I see this whole confusion between traffic and conversions on a lot of the industry forums I frequent. People will leave a post and say "I have lots of traffic, but I'm not getting any sales". When you go on the thread and ask where the traffic is coming from, you usually get a a "what?" Once you explain the whole idea of targeted traffic it's like a lightbulb goes off in their heads. Once people start to understand that it's not just traffic, but the right kind of traffic that makes the difference, things tend to improve.

And that makes me think I should write a blog post on the subject for my industry blog.

vangogh
12-23-2010, 12:19 PM
Sounds like good topic for a post. I think people have somehow come to believe that all you need is traffic and that there's some mystery formula for getting free traffic from search engines that they just need to discover. Sadly it doesn't work that way.

954SEO
01-07-2011, 10:44 AM
I'm glad it is getting more talk. For the last few years everything seems to be about traffic as if more traffic is the only way to generate more sales. Yet isn't it better to have one person visit and buy something than it is to have one million visit and leave. Both are important. More traffic is usually a good thing as is a higher conversion rate. Both are also connected. One step in improving conversion rate is improving how targeted your traffic is.

So true, Vangogh. Many people don't realize how important the niche factor is. It's way better to be the best in the world at one particular thing then to just be another fish in the pond. I've read on another thread that you want customers to feel like a kid in a candy store when they get to your site. They should feel that all their questions could be answered just by visiting this one site, and if they ever have another question down the line, they know where to go.

vangogh
01-08-2011, 12:42 PM
I think it's better to be the big fish in the small pond than the small fish in the big pond, especially when starting out. Once you own the pond you can start looking to the pond across the road and work toward becoming the big fish in that pond as well.

bizmultiplier
06-15-2011, 04:01 PM
When interviewing them, as mentioned, definitely ask for work samples. But equally important is the process they use. I've worked with a lot of developers, and usually spend a few thousand dollars testing a few developers on small projects before I hire them either full time or on a freelance basis.

If you don't have money for small tests, one thing you can do is ask them about their process in developing (software/websites). If that doesn't include detailed specification documents or any sort of wire-frames, I wouldn't even bother with them.

I would also stay away from hiring a freelancer in India. From my experience, the communication barrier (not accent, but understanding of the definition of what some words mean in English) can lead to much miscommunication and a lengthier timeline.

A person may charge $8 and hour, but it may take them four times longer and also require four times the attention from you to help them understand exactly what it is you want.

These are just some lessons I've learned over the years. I hope they help you.

vangogh
06-15-2011, 05:51 PM
I agree with much if what you said, but I disagree with the following


If that doesn't include detailed specification documents or any sort of wire-frames, I wouldn't even bother with them.

I disagree that these things need to be part of the process. I generally don't include detailed specification documents to clients for a few reasons. My clients don't want to pay for them. I'll gladly include those detailed specs for anyone who's willing to pay for my time creating them, but do know they can take time and you should expect to pay more for the project if you want them.

Another reason though is the more detailed the spec, the less likely they'll get read. Summaries get read. Detailed specs, not so much.

One last reason. I don't think sharing certain things from my design process will be beneficial to clients. I always start a design by making some sketches. These sketches are rough and wouldn't give my clients any real picture of what they're site will look like. Similar for wireframes or most any other "document" I create along the way. I continue designing right through the development stage.

In general I'll send clients an image of what I'm thinking for the finished design along with the idea that it could change once it becomes a live website. Then I deliver the live site. In between there are emails going back and forth and sometimes phone calls, but very few things you'd call deliverables.

Never once has that been an issue. But that's my clients. If I had different clients I would likely send more deliverables during the process. I'm not trying to say those detailed specs aren't important at all. Just saying they aren't always appropriate.

I think when hiring a designer the best thing you can do is get to know the person a little, look at the previous work, and get a feel for what they can do for you. There's no one way to hire anyone, though for all hirings I think it ultimately comes down to a measure of trust. That's why hiring people for small jobs first is a great thing to do. You get to learn about the person by working with them on a low risk project.

nealrm
06-15-2011, 06:53 PM
I recently tried elance.com. You put your project online and programmers bid on the work. I tried it out with. a small project and it worked well

cfoster
06-15-2011, 08:07 PM
I think when you get to meet up with possible developers, you should talk about the whole scope when you sign the contract, or agree on it if you are doing it online. The scope should consider budget constraints and more importantly, the schedule. It is a pretty common sight to see that developers do not get to finish their task in the given time frame. SO I suggest you consult one that has a programming method to boot.

uwwandrew
06-15-2011, 10:16 PM
I own a web development co in a small MSA. There are loads of web design / dev companies closing as fast as they open. I think every kid that gets a computer and a piece of web building software starts a business. Suddenly they realize a sustainable business model requires sales/marketing/accounting/etc. They run off, get a real job and leave you in the lurch. You pay a lawyer or a doctor because they know something you don't. What protects them from using that info against you? The ABA or the AMA. We need an association for web builders.

vangogh
06-16-2011, 10:43 AM
I'm not sure if we need an association. I don't think we could ever have licensing because the world of web design/development moves faster than the world of the classroom. Those with licenses would usually be far behind those who learn on their own when getting their license. Technology changes daily. Licensing boards change a lot less frequently.

Some of the issue with hiring a bad developer or designer is on the person doing the hiring. I see lots of people complain about their designer or developer after choosing one based solely on price. Not that you have to seek out the most expensive person to work with, but if most people are charging $x and then one person charges $x/10 you should be asking yourself why is that one person so cheap. It's usually not because they do a better job.

KristineS
06-16-2011, 11:22 AM
I think a lot of times people don't do their research either. It isn't hard to ask someone for references, or do they have a list of sites they've developed? Just Google the person's name or company name and see what comes up. A lot of times people complain about bad or shoddy work when they could have avoided the whole thing if they had just done a little preliminary research. Especially in fields where virtually anyone can put out their shingle (SEO and Social Media anyone?) it pays to check people out, and it's the buyer's responsibility to do that.

vangogh
06-16-2011, 11:35 AM
Yep. Clearly there are times when a person does do some research and the company they ended up with ripped them off. There are also plenty of times where the company and client weren't a good fit, though neither necessarily did anything wrong. Much of the time though, I think the people hiring don't do their due diligence.

Research is pretty easy to do in the age of search engines. Most web professionals will publish blogs and if you spend even a night or two reading through their blogs you can get a good sense of the person(s) behind the company. Depending on the profession there will be portfolios or case studies of previous work.

Harold Mansfield
06-16-2011, 11:48 AM
I can add to that, that if you consistently look for the cheapest, you will get screwed from time to time. You should always look for the best deal, but if average prices, for instance, are between $1k and up ( depending on what you want) and you find someone to do it for $200, you can't complain if they end up being a hack and you get screwed.

jmweb
07-14-2011, 09:41 PM
I hear Anne's story a lot and sadly, she isn't the only one.

The problem is Anne doesn't know how to identify which developer is the best for her. Afterall, if she could identify the best developer, she wouldn't need one. It's not easy when you don't know much on a subject and are looking for someone to fit your needs. And it happens all the time in the web world.

And yes, India is cheap but you still have to give them credit. Even some of them are good. If I was in Anne's shoes, I wouldn't be hiring willy nilly. I would ask a tech. friend for a suggestion. If they've worked with web developers before, chances are they know a good fit for Anne.

Else, it is all just a marketing scheme. I used to be in the web hosting world and remember one local guy who promoted a local mall as his office when the only connection he had to the building was the fact that he had a PO Box ACROSS the street for the mall.

Nice eh?

vangogh
07-14-2011, 10:27 PM
It's not easy when you don't know much on a subject and are looking for someone to fit your needs.

True, but I don't think it's as hard as many make it seem to learn enough to hire better. You don't have to become an expert on the subject. You just need to know enough to ask a few good questions and also get a good feeling if you're being told the truth in the answers. It doesn't require a lot of knowledge for that.

I don't think the issue is about knowing enough to choose between subtle differences. At some point you have to trust the person you hire and sometimes it could go wrong. There are ways to mitigate your risks though and even a small amount of research can help you see through the worst of the lot.

For example one of our members, SteveB, says he always starts off a relationship like this by hiring someone for a small job. By the time the job is done he knows a lot more about the person. He does his homework first so he's not just hiring anyone. The worst case with the small job is he's out a small amount of money, though it's certainly better than losing a lot of money. Best case is he's found someone he'll probably work with long term.

treelifedesigns
07-20-2011, 06:50 PM
I agree with all the above posts. It is sad since I am in the design/development field, but you must do you research on a company's portfolio. It also works to check their site to see if it looks professional and fits the bill of quality you are looking for. I know for my business that is my job to make my clients happy and keep the budget at a top priority. Sorry you have had so many issues with different developers, but there are some good ones out there :D. PM if you need anything.

seolman
07-22-2011, 01:22 PM
There are also plenty of times where the company and client weren't a good fit, though neither necessarily did anything wrong.

You are so right! We learned so many lessons that hard way when we started out - but over the past decade have refined the development process down to a science. Even so - we recognize we are not the perfect fit for all clients. Now we have the luxury of turning down work that simply doesn't fit what we specialize in and it has made life a lot easier.

@eborg - you have defined precisely the client we avoid - those who focus on mainly price often end up with exactly what they pay for. If you have a bicycle budget you will get a bicycle. If you need a BMW wait till you have the funds required to build a real long-term web solution.

vangogh
07-22-2011, 01:56 PM
we recognize we are not the perfect fit for all clients.

Yep. While I think I do a good job in general I know have my strengths and weaknesses as a web designer. In some cases my skills may not match a given client's needs. Sometimes it's simply a matter of personality. Like most people I get along with some and not so much with others. Again that can make for a less than ideal fit.

When hiring anyone you definitely need to spend some time getting to know them first. You don't need to become best friends, but a little time can show whether or not you'll be able to work together.

glenneena
11-23-2011, 02:03 PM
Interesting. You guys know something, some of the best business relationships I have are not with the little guy down the street or the customer that calls me like once a year. It is with some of the biggest trucking lines and national leasing firms that have the same personnel in their driver's seat in management year after year I have been dealing with. A bump in the road and a problem in business, always solidifies a relationship into something special if both parties are desirous of being long term business partners. You can always tell those that are not worthy of future work, those are the ones that are demeaning, degrading and impossible to work with. No matter what industry. People solves problems together and people make each other money.

vangogh
11-30-2011, 11:36 AM
if both parties are desirous of being long term business partners.

Yep. It does take both parties wanting that long term relationship.


People solves problems together and people make each other money.

I would add that the money they make each other needs to be fairly distributed based on the amount of work each does for the others. Sometimes the relationship can become very one-sided and if it does the business on the "other side" probably loses their interest in keeping the long term relationship going.

KristineS
11-30-2011, 11:58 AM
I think glenneena points out a really vital piece of the puzzle though, both parties have to be willing to work together. I think, in some cases, when a business person hires someone for a service, like web design, they put all the weight of making it work on the designer. We all have heard stories about customers who want completely crazy things for their website, or want something that will take a ton of work to do, but don't want to pay for the time. You have to be willing to work with whomever you've hired, and they have to be willing to work with you, and seriously willing, not just "you're paying me money so I'll go along" willing. If you don't have that, it's a tough road.

vangogh
12-01-2011, 10:35 AM
True. It is a collaborative effort when you work with someone else. The expert you hire should certainly know their job and for the most part you probably shouldn't be trying to manage every small part of the process, but you do need to give input about what you want as well as contribute what you need to make the project happen.

For example if you hire an account you still need to save receipts and keep some kind of book. If you hire a web designer you need to supply content and share your goals for the site and your business, etc.

Drachsi
12-11-2011, 04:09 AM
I think this is a basic problem effecting many businesses with a website. When you find somebody with the knowledge and experience that can help you, working together to develop and market an idea, this is the best solution. I notice from the above posting the subject of references, my customers don't want this as it gives them an edge over the competition.

greenoak
12-11-2011, 09:19 AM
but how can they , really?..how would they even know w hat they were looking at? .. you have to realize that so many who need web services dont know anything about the innards of the process....sure they need educated , that would be better, but its probably not going to happen....they need honest competent web workers....
i would go for references, ones i could talk to..especially from peers who said , this guy was great..... and seeing sites and hearing the cost...
luckily we havent had to face this...but i know a lot of folks who have been what i sould all innocent victums of bad work...

billbenson
12-11-2011, 02:00 PM
double post

billbenson
12-11-2011, 02:14 PM
You need someone who can write copy
you need someone that can provide pages that sell
you need someone with artistic skills - at least to some degree -colors, images etc
you need someone with SEO skills / web marketing skills
you need someone who knows your product.




you have to realize that so many who need web services dont know anything about the innards of the process....sure they need educated , that would be better, but its probably not going to happen....

Ann you are probably correct that most people won't have the knowledge they need to select the proper designer for their site. In my list above, the last item is often the hardest one to find. In your case you can probably find someone who knows how to build large B&M sites. But your probably not going to find someone who knows antique sites. If you do they may be weak in other areas. In the end, you may want to use multiple web designers or people that perform the functions in my list. Still that can be difficult for someone that doesn't know the ins and outs of web design.

greenoak
12-11-2011, 05:38 PM
that sounds like a great list bill...
im not looking for help......ours is working fine and is several years old...it brings lots of folks to the store... we redid it last year...ours is a billboard site....if anything, it could use 30 more pictures....and a link to our pinterest...
for a style business like ours ...they would have to get the right feel and right colors etc etc.... that would be a huge part...i assume you could show the designer some pictures of the right look and start from there....im glad we do ours in house...

billbenson
12-11-2011, 08:11 PM
Ann, I know you are pretty well set in what you are doing. Even though I quoted you, my response was a general response in what is needed IMO in a web designer and the realities of finding an exact match.Also the benefits of studying all aspects of web design, particularly marketing, even if you plan to pay others to build the site.

Spider
12-13-2011, 11:22 AM
So, if one is a small business owner - let's say a small 900sf. shop in a suburban shopping strip, or a service business working out of a 1500sf. warehouse/office unit in a business park - what would you advise them to learn, specifically?

What courses are available, and where?

Is anything available on-line where they can learn the rudiments listed --

• how to write copy
• how to design pages that sell
• how to learn artistic skills - colors, images etc
• how to do SEO
• how to do web marketing

It's all very well listing things that a small business owner needs to know and acknowledging that most don't know and are not inclinced to learn them, we have to tell them how they can learn these things. If this thread is to have a beneficial result, the typical, suffering small business owner needs to be told how they can aquire the skills you all seem to be advocating.

I'm sure many readers, now or in the future, want to know how to solve this problem so they at least know enough not to get screwed by less-than-honest web developers.

What courses are available, and where? Any suggesstions?

vangogh
12-13-2011, 11:40 AM
how would they even know w hat they were looking at? .. you have to realize that so many who need web services dont know anything about the innards of the process

Ann the point isn't that you have to learn to be an expert in web design, development, seo, copywriting, etc. The point is to learn enough to hire the right people.

I'm guessing you have a doctor. I'm also guessing you're not an expert in medicine. You found a doctor though so you should be able to find people to do all your web work. If I'm not mistaken you already have. You didn't set out to become a doctor though and go to medical school. You didn't have to. Same thing with the web.

If you're looking to hire someone start by asking people you know for recommendations. Spend a few nights searching online and bookmark the sites of anyone who you think you might be someone you'd hire. Build a list of a few people and then start narrowing down the list by looking through their sites, sending an email with questions, giving them a call.

Then pick a person or company to work with. You're not going to know in advance if you made the best choice. Life doesn't work that way. Hopefully you have, but if not you find someone else the next time around. If you're worried about spending too much money initially do what SteveB does and start with a small project. That way you can learn enough to know if you want to continue working with whoever you hired and at worst you'll be out a couple hundred.

Also keep in mind that there are many people right here on this forum that offer all these services. It always seems strange to me to hear people say they can't find a copywriter or a web designer, etc when there are people right here offering those services. If you trust the people here enough to answer your questions why wouldn't you trust them enough to hire them?

billbenson
12-13-2011, 02:50 PM
Spider, VG pretty much summed it up. There are good web designers here. By following this forum or others, over time you can get a grasp of the knowledge base, honesty, etc of the people here offering services including web design. A good web designer will know his strengths and weaknessses and refer out the part that he's not good at. If you recall the late great Eborg farmed out php or other coding. He had developed a list of people he trusted.

So its places like this that can be of great value in finding someone reliable. I'm also quite surprised when people go outside this forum in looking for web designers or at least a recommendation of one. Beyond that, the webmasters here are more motivated to do a good job as they certainly don't want a bad reputation here! Same is true for graphics people, programmers, copywriters. If I wanted some good copy, Dan is the first person I'd call.

Spider
12-13-2011, 03:12 PM
Bill, I accept all that and agree. But that does not make the businessperson any more knowledgeable, and you and others have recommended that a business owner should have a certain level of knowledge with which to direct the web developer one selects. Hopefully one selects a competent web developer and hopefully that competent web developer is an SBF members. But if I understand you correctly, a business owner still needs to know enough about web development to be able to tell the professional web developer what they want.

My request was to find a place(s) to get the knowledge that you all are recommending a businessowner should have.

TimPiazza
12-13-2011, 03:51 PM
I have explored the world of eLance and odesk for outsourcing some programming tasks, and the results have been interesting. You not only need someone who knows what they are doing, but you need to be able to communicate well with them, and know exactly what their skill set is.

What I have learned to do is break projects down into small pieces. The small pieces by themselves allow me to accomplish a goal, so each piece gives me something in return for what I spend. Then piece by piece, I get to where I want to be at the end. If a programmer falls flat, I can still pick up where they left off with someone else.

Tim

TimPiazza
12-13-2011, 03:53 PM
BTW, I have wasted a great deal of time on those freelance sites just to find a few good coders. I have had projects that should have taken a few days stalled for weeks due to over-promises and under-deliveries.

Tim

billbenson
12-13-2011, 04:18 PM
I always recommend doing a hobby site and try to get it into the top 5 on Google. That will force you to do a bunch of searches to find information you need. That's pretty much what you did. BTW you actually did this so ask yourself the question as well.

There are also web design sites. webmonkey.com is one. I'm not necessarily recommending them, but there are plenty out there, some certainly geared toward the beginner.

Also, I would find a good webmaster forum. I was on one for years and learned an incredible amount. My forum is pretty much dead now unfortunately. I would look for a small forum, something like this place where you become a person. In the forum I would look for one that has a lot of members that build and manage their own websites for personal gain. The guys that build their websites and have a portfolio of 50 or 100 which they promote. These are people that make a living from this and gaining search engine placement and all aspects of marketing are important. Stay away from black hat forums. I would also want a few good techie types on the forum. Both SEO's and code people. A place where you can stick some code and ask questions about it or figure out why its not working.

When I look at seo information I look both at the technical experts and the people that are getting their own sites placing well. The guys that do well aren't just going to tell you how they did it, but over time you can piece together what they are doing. You can also build relationships and get information by PM.

Dan Furman
12-14-2011, 11:49 AM
Also keep in mind that there are many people right here on this forum that offer all these services. It always seems strange to me to hear people say they can't find a copywriter or a web designer, etc when there are people right here offering those services. If you trust the people here enough to answer your questions why wouldn't you trust them enough to hire them?

Because most of the people here aren't "cheap". That's one reason.

Also, while this is an online forum, I have found many small business owners are still "wary" of the internet and people offering services on it. We've had Ann say in the past she would never give money to someone online before they started work. Well, that's fine and all, but that's also going to prettymuch eliminate any professional service providor.

billbenson
12-14-2011, 02:55 PM
Because most of the people here aren't "cheap". That's one reason.

Also, while this is an online forum, I have found many small business owners are still "wary" of the internet and people offering services on it. We've had Ann say in the past she would never give money to someone online before they started work. Well, that's fine and all, but that's also going to prettymuch eliminate any professional service providor.

While I agree with that Dan, if I wanted someone local, for example, I would contract with one of the experts here to help me find someone locally. The financial issue goes back to the lack of understanding what is really required for a web site. Or some just don't have money. Can't do much about the latter. I wrote my own website. Its ugly, but I did a good enough job to make money. I'm now having VG redo it because I know a professional can do a much better job and he happened to have the skill set (wordpress, seo) that I was looking for.

greenoak
12-14-2011, 05:13 PM
i would give dan money since i "know" him.....and i asume if i were looking i could find someone who had done some professional work for someone i know locally, and get a reference......... i m out in the boondocks buti think i could possibly find a pro out here...but no., i wouldnt send money to an unknown internet worker who said they were professional before they started......

Dan Furman
12-14-2011, 05:19 PM
i would give dan money since i "know" him.....and i asume if i were looking i could find someone who had done some professional work for someone i know locally, and get a reference......... i m out in the boondocks buti think i could possibly find a pro out here...but no., i wouldnt send money to an unknown internet worker who said they were professional before they started......

shall I send you a PayPal invoice :D

@ Bill - that's a good point on having someone here help you find someone local.

greenoak
12-14-2011, 09:05 PM
sorry dan....im not in the market for any services.....lol
do you think there has ever been any provider on here that wasnt a self proclaimed professional? its pretty easy to say...just think of all the folks who have passed thru here for a couple of days or a week....
i get so many offers all the time in ads and my email box....and they are all great!!!according to their w ebsites..... i just would prefer a known reference....
im just careful.....this is about the only place i get painted as cheap..........

billbenson
12-14-2011, 09:56 PM
sorry dan....im not in the market for any services.....lol
do you think there has ever been any provider on here that wasnt a self proclaimed professional? its pretty easy to say...just think of all the folks who have passed thru here for a couple of days or a week....
i get so many offers all the time in ads and my email box....and they are all great!!!according to their w ebsites..... i just would prefer a known reference....
im just careful.....this is about the only place i get painted as cheap..........
I'll point that one back at you Ann. Do you think there is a local person that won't claim to be a professional in "whatever". Huggy frequently complains about his competition doing lousy work but yet they are self proclaimed professionals.
And they might think they are but aren't.

Since dan markets himself on the internet you could do searches for him across the internet for people that complained about him. You can't do that for someone out of the yellow pages. If you do your research, I'd say you will find better talent on the web than locally. You have a whole country of professionals to select from, not a small town.

greenoak
12-14-2011, 11:15 PM
what i keep saying is that i would get a reference....and i have lots of contacts outside of our small town.... so i get your point that there might not be one here in our town...but i would still need to get some reference before sending money out into the web....
i also said i would go for dan... i wouldnt have a problem with that at all...
actually i have bought a $400 product from a web person and i paid ahead....buti did l good research first....and got references from one of their customers in my field...and i saw some of the persons work....i never would have done it without my friends reference.... thats how i would pick...

vangogh
12-15-2011, 12:40 AM
Because most of the people here aren't "cheap". That's one reason

How do you know? I don't see people talking about their rates here. You know how much I charge because we've work together, but I've never mentioned it here. Besides it's not about the bottom line price. It's about the value you get back. I'd rather hire the person for $10,000 that makes me $50,000 than the person who charged $100 and made me nothing.

Still my main point was why don't people ever ask those of us here for advice. People complain all the time about not knowing how to find a service provider, yet those same people don't post questions here to ask.


i wouldnt send money to an unknown internet worker who said they were professional before they started

Ann the local person can just as easily say they're professional without being professional. The only thing the local person has over the online person is you can physically meet the local person. That might be important to some, but it doesn't make them any more professional or honest.

Local or online I think it makes sense to talk to the person before hiring them and get to know them and see if you trust them and if you think they can do the work you want.


Since dan markets himself on the internet you could do searches for him across the internet for people that complained about him.

Or just search for him in general. No matter who I need to hire at this point I almost always start with a web search. I found a plumber that way and an electrician and even my dentist. I did more than just find people through a web search, but it's an easy place to start and form a list for further research.

The reality is we won't truly know if we made a good choice until after we've made the choice. We can do all the research in the world and gather the best references and we're still trusting the person we hire will be the right person. I think sometimes people want a guarantee up front that the person they're thinking of hiring will be the right person. That guarantee will never exist.

Earlier it was asked how you learn enough to know what questions to ask. Again start with a web search. Just start looking for potential people to hire and start reading their sites. Most are going to mention the things they do well and you'll start to learn the general buzzwords in the industry. Take those words and do some additional searches, this time looking for information. Spend a few hours over the course of a week reading and refining your searches based on what you're reading and you'll have learned a lot.

greenoak
12-15-2011, 09:53 AM
i hear you vg...i have several business friends who have been totally unhappy with local experts..... thats why i would go for a satisfied receiver of web work and take their reference seriously....also i would really look at their site...are you catching that im saying i would pick after having references from someone i know?...im not saying local would be more professional than national...i sure would prefer local tho....
there is so much unprofessionalism out there in the computer service world....combined with the the fact that many of the potential customers who are actually in the market for a great site or whatever , are businessses outside the tekk world, and for these potential customers not being tekk people its a bad situation .... ripe for misinfomation and bad decisions and deep misleading and unhappy customers and money spent without result........imho...
its a huge pool for you guys to fish in! every new busness needs a web presence.... if someone figures it out it and can make it clear and fast and easy for the store or whatever should make you a lot of money.. i know how i would do it...but i already have a business..lol..for new businessses or first time buyers ..i would give them 3 examples and reveal the a general price for each and make strict, clear rules....make it clear that if they picked A they ouldnt get all the goodies in C
im glad we do it inhouse.... and somehow ours is working great...

Dan Furman
12-15-2011, 10:48 PM
sorry dan....im not in the market for any services.....lol
do you think there has ever been any provider on here that wasnt a self proclaimed professional? its pretty easy to say...just think of all the folks who have passed thru here for a couple of days or a week....
i get so many offers all the time in ads and my email box....and they are all great!!!according to their w ebsites..... i just would prefer a known reference....
im just careful.....this is about the only place i get painted as cheap..........

Good points. This exact reason is why I did/do the following:

1) Incorporated, and got listed on DnB.
2) Joined the BBB and have a checkable record.
3) Have a substantial website.
4) Never let my blog go "dry". No six months without a post.
5) Wrote two books.
6) Have working links to real clients.

type in Dan Furman, and I'm all over the results, including top 2. I'm about as genuine as it gets. Not one complaint out there for me, too (not that I know of anyway, and I do check). I haven't had a dissatisfied client / client issue in more than 5 years.

TimPiazza
12-16-2011, 12:19 AM
I have been telling my family that even though I'm a seasoned pro, I arguably have no more credentials as a social media expert than someone who has 3-4 years career experience. They're still not buying it, and expect me to pay the bills when I'd rather be hanging out on a forum. :-)

Tim

vangogh
12-16-2011, 01:10 AM
i would pick after having references from someone i know

Ann I think that's the best way to start. Ask the people who you trust who they recommend and start there. I suggest searching when you can't get a recommendation from someone you know and also to supplement the recommendations you do get.

@Tim - Funny :)

Just a few more thoughts about learning about web design in general. I think when it comes to our business we should all want to learn as much as we can about every aspect. We're not all going to become expert accountants or marketers or web designers. We'll hire people to do some of the things our business needs. At the same time I would hope we'd all want to learn what we can about all those things even if we do hire people to do the work.

When I first went into business I knew how to build websites, but I didn't know much about business in general or marketing or plenty of other things I need to run my business. I walked into a bookstore and spent an hour in the business and marketing sections and came home with a couple of books to read. Once I finished them I picked up a couple more on more specific topics that interested me in the first two books.

In addition to the books I searched online for the same topics I was interested in. Today there's time built into my week for learning. I set up a feedreader to grab posts from hundreds of blogs. It's basically a newspaper to help me in business. I still read books and search for information online.

I don't think anyone has to become an expert web designer to hire one. You don't need to know how to build your own websites. But there's no reason you can't walk into a bookstore and look around or spend some time searching Amazon. You'll find books that talk about websites from a less technical perspective. You can skip the book and just start searching and learning as you go, refining your searching as you learn more. There's not going to be a single site or page with all the information you need, but all the information is available. Doesn't it make sense to spend $50 on a couple of books or 10 hours of time searching in order to help you find the right person to build your site?

nicolassage
12-27-2011, 02:58 PM
A web agency will do a very good job but will be more expensive... I agree KristineS it's difficult to find someone with wich to work. And yes references are the best way to "test" a web developer or designer!
Good luck Anne !

jamesray50
12-27-2011, 03:51 PM
I'm going to throw my two cents in here. I didn't know how to find a web designer for my website and decided to ask this forum for help. I had several offers to build my website. After looking at the offers and websites that had been done, I made my choice. I also chose a copywriter. I am totally happy with my decision. I have a wonderful website that gets great reviews from my colleagues. I belong to a bookkeeping forum where different members are always designing their websites and asking for reviews. Other members will offer suggestions on how to improve their sites and use my website as an example on what a good website and copy should look like. Credit for my website is on my home page.

greenoak
12-28-2011, 09:51 AM
yours really looks great jo...

Georgias Gifts
12-29-2011, 10:31 PM
Jo, I think your site looks very good. I believe I remember it before the changes and it turned out very clean and professional.

vangogh
01-03-2012, 11:46 AM
I didn't know how to find a web designer for my website and decided to ask this forum for help. I had several offers to build my website. After looking at the offers and websites that had been done, I made my choice.

Jo Ellen that's exactly what I've been trying to get across. That's part of why this forum is here and ideally no matter what you're looking for someone here can point you to. I do understand it's not easy finding someone, but I don't think everyone takes advantage of the resources around them to try. The way you went about finding someone is good example of someone who did take advantage of the resources and you found someone who gave you a site you like.

FYI for those who like Jo Ellen's site. It's a customized WordPress theme (nope not customized by me). Just pointing it out to show how WordPress can be pretty good option to have a site and help keep costs down.

jamesray50
01-03-2012, 12:41 PM
I didn't know anything about using WordPress either and the person who did my site took the time to show me what to do, so if I want to make minor changes I think I can do it okay. I even changed the info in one of my sidebars and it turned out to be correct after I did it, which thrilled me.

vangogh
01-04-2012, 11:51 AM
Now that you've been using it awhile, how do you find working with WordPress? Did it take long to learn how to use?

jamesray50
01-05-2012, 12:35 AM
It didn't take too long to learn it. Mostly what I do is write post for my blog, so that is pretty easy. I was showed how to add the keyword for the seo and what category to put the blog in. I know how to change my picture, which I did one, but didn't like the one I chose, so I went back to the 1st one I had. Ocsassionally a new version come out and WordPress needs to be update. The first time I did that, I did get a little anxious, but I followed instructions, backup the data base first and the did the update. I wouldn't say I am 100% comfortable with it if something new came up or if I wanted to do something different, but I would ask someone here for help.

greenoak
01-05-2012, 09:00 AM
thats good to hear jo....we have thought about it and my web person thought it would be a lot different and harder for her...
.but last year on here eborg sure said good things about wordpress...so i got kind of interested in it........ i wonder where he is? and hope he comes back sometime...

vangogh
01-05-2012, 11:23 AM
Good to know Jo Ellen. Those are the things you're going to do most often. There might be a few other minor things you would do routinely, but those tend to be different for different sites. With the updates did you use the automatic update feature through the admin part of your site? I understand the nervous feeling, but over the years it's become a painless process. The only time I ever see issues any more is if a theme is relying on a plugin (or even some code in the theme) that's been abandoned and isn't updating. Most of the time even those issues are relatively quick to fix. Often it's just disabling the offending plugin.

jamesray50
01-07-2012, 05:39 PM
I do everything through the admin site. I get nervous doing the backup first, but it always seems to go okay and the updates never have a problem. And so far I haven't had a problem with any updates to the plugins either. But, if I do, I know where to come for help. By the way, where is eborg? Did he leave us?

vangogh
01-09-2012, 11:43 AM
Harold had to make some career changes that have him offline more than online at the moment. I think he'd like to get back to more online stuff and I assume he'll be back here at some point. When we were all still on the old forum I remember he disappeared for awhile once or twice and I'm guessing the same kind of thing is happening now.

KristinWard
08-02-2012, 12:24 PM
Ouch if we did that to our customers we would be out of business. After that I'm surprised you are still interested. Single freelance develops tend to be a bit more risky then a business. Not that there aren't some great ones out there. Its just a lot harder for businesses to pull disappearing acts. I agree completely with KristineS on the reference thing. If a company can't supply an references then I wouldn't work with them.

vangogh
08-03-2012, 12:12 AM
Single freelance develops tend to be a bit more risky then a business.

I don't think that's a fair statement. I do understand what you're saying and I'd agree a freelancer is more likely to disappear than a larger business. However that's not all freelancers. It's more likely those who were never serious to begin with. I think even a little bit a communication can make them easy to spot too. Not always, of course, but a little bit of due diligence can go a long way.

Also larger businesses are often riskier in other ways. The probably cost more for the same work. There's likely more red tape to jump through if you deviate in the slightest from the contract.

In the end it's the specific person of company that will determine the risk of working with them. No matter the size you should be talking to them or have a recommendation or something so you feel you can trust them. Again I'll point to SteveB's method of starting with a small job to minimize your initial risk while truly getting to know how the business operates and whether or not you can work together long term.

Harold Mansfield
08-03-2012, 01:52 AM
Single freelance develops tend to be a bit more risky then a business. Not that there aren't some great ones out there. Its just a lot harder for businesses to pull disappearing acts.

Definitely not a fair or accurate statement. If there's anything everyone should have learned recently is size doesn't matter. If companies like Lehman Brothers, who had been on Wall Street for the last 80 years can go down, anyone can. And I can name probably 50 other companies off of the top of my head in various industries that have suffered the same fate...and the truth is there are 10's of thousands just in the last 4 years. Meanwhile, I'm still here.

If we want to make mass generalizations, I could say that larger web design companies with payroll pressures tend to be so focused on sales that they end up selling people products that they don't need, or products that make the client dependent on them. Basically taking advantage of people because they don't know any better. Much like a restaurant, it's all about up selling the client.

Also the red tape, contracts, scheduling, and even possibly dealing with various people can be a turn off for a business who doesn't operate the same way.

If a client calls me with a problem, (if I'm free) I can jump on it right right away, get it done and send an invoice before the day or even the hour is up. I don't have to submit a work order, schedule it, and get back to them.

Also, as a one person shop with service partners that are also one person shops, I can say definitively whether or not I'll be around because I'm the only person that needs to be paid and know the expenses exactly. As an employee, you have no verifiable idea about the strength or financial weaknesses of the company you work for because you don't see the numbers vs. cost.

Now that's just as unfair to say about web design firms, as the other is to say about freelancers or one person businesses. Especially since this is a forum of mostly one person businesses...as are many, many small businesses in this country.

billbenson
08-03-2012, 03:55 PM
Single freelance develops tend to be a bit more risky then a business


I don't think that's a fair statement. I do understand what you're saying and I'd agree a freelancer is more likely to disappear than a larger business. However that's not all freelancers. It's more likely those who were never serious to begin with. I think even a little bit a communication can make them easy to spot too. Not always, of course, but a little bit of due diligence can go a long way.

Also larger businesses are often riskier in other ways. The probably cost more for the same work. There's likely more red tape to jump through if you deviate in the slightest from the contract.

In the end it's the specific person of company that will determine the risk of working with them. No matter the size you should be talking to them or have a recommendation or something so you feel you can trust them. Again I'll point to SteveB's method of starting with a small job to minimize your initial risk while truly getting to know how the business operates and whether or not you can work together long term.

It's also a reason to use standards like WordPress sites. If your developer or designer keels over and dies, there are a lot of designers that can easily take over site development for you. If you have a very custom site, that's not necessarily true.

vangogh
08-03-2012, 05:10 PM
It's also a reason to use standards like WordPress sites.

True. If you stick with standards then someone else can usually come in and pick right up.

In fairness to Kristen, I do understand what she's saying. If you're wondering who's more likely to still be in business tomorrow, a lone freelancer or a company with say a dozen employees, I'd bet on the company. I don't think it's fair to assume the freelancer will disappear though. There are certain some people who'll freelance in any field less because it's what they really want to do and more because it's an opportunity for the moment. And there are some who won't manage to survive on their own and end up needing a job.

Still there are many freelancers who will be around tomorrow. They love what they do and are able to make a living doing it. I've even known freelancers who continue to help clients after the freelancer is technically retired, because they don't want to leave their client without help. I don't know too many companies that would continue serving clients after closing their doors.

Either freelancer of company can be a risky proposition. That's why you should get to know whoever you plan on working with as much as you can and why if possible you might want to start with a small project where you aren't risking much if things don't work out.

socialme82
08-07-2012, 05:44 PM
I understand how you feel, a lot of web developers are either slow or do not know what they are doing. Usually it is that last part, it is an over saturated industry that anyone can claim to be a pro at. My best advice is to always have a good look at the portfolio and see if it is extensive enough to prove that this person delivers what they say they will and with the level of knowledge you need. They teach 12 year olds to do basic html but they are in no way on par with a top level web developer, most people have no idea about the difference.

Harold Mansfield
08-07-2012, 05:56 PM
I understand how you feel, a lot of web developers are either slow or do not know what they are doing. Usually it is that last part, it is an over saturated industry that anyone can claim to be a pro at. My best advice is to always have a good look at the portfolio and see if it is extensive enough to prove that this person delivers what they say they will and with the level of knowledge you need. They teach 12 year olds to do basic html but they are in no way on par with a top level web developer, most people have no idea about the difference.

Most people also have no idea what or who they need. The general conception is that if you work on a computer then you do everything possible that is done with a computer.

A lot of the problems I see, besides just bad service, is people hiring a person for a job that they do not specialize in. Just because someone builds websites, doesn't mean that they are the right person to build a complicated SQL database structure, or program a backend client management system.

Even when I tell people that what they need encompasses 2 very different specialties that don't generally overlap, they refuse to beleive that it. I work with WordPress, therefore I'm supposed to be able to do flash animation games. And that's how they end up hiring the wrong people for the job.

vangogh
08-07-2012, 09:39 PM
I also think it cuts both ways. There are definitely a lot of people calling themselves web designers who really don't have the skills or professionalism, but there are also plenty of people who hire them solely because they cost less than the people and companies with skills and professionalism. It's the same in a lot of industries, particularly those who work online since it's so easy to get started in business.

Again I don't think it's that hard though to sort through the bad and find someone good to work with. First you do have to spend some time searching. You can't just hire the first person who's site you land on. Take a little time to understand what a web designer does. If you ask most people they think design is all about making things look pretty. It isn't. It's about organizing information and developing something usable. It's about making sure visitors to your site can read the information and just as importantly want to read your information. And yes some of it can be about making it pretty.

With a little bit of understanding of what design is you'll be in a better position to judge someone's portfolio and ask them questions and decide if they can do the job. While talking to them you should get a feel for whether or not you think you can trust them and work with them. And once again I'll point out SteveB's tip to start with a small job. You'll learn a lot more from actually working with someone than you will over a single phone call or handful of emails. Find a small project that shouldn't cost more than a couple hundred dollars. Worst case is you're out a couple hundred, which isn't so much if it helps you avoid losing a lot more with a bad hire.

socialme82
08-09-2012, 03:15 PM
^ I couldn't agree with you more. This is a common issue and partly because new website buyers rarely understand the difference between an amateur and a professional. I worked as a designer for 15 years and all I would hear from people when cold calling was "Oh my 16 year old niece is going to build our website" or "My friend (who works in a completely unrelated field) can build websites and said they would do it for $50.00" which is complete garbage. You can get a free generator online but if you want quality with search engine ranking potential and good user experience you need to hire a true professional designer who works on an existing and well made back end platform or works with back end developers to make sure it is done correctly. A wordpress designer is a good example of a designer who can work independently because the open source platform he or she uses is already fine tuned for SEO but it is still a complex specialty which takes a LOT of time and research to master. Learning the complex ins and outs of design and development takes years of hard work, this is hardly something an amateur is going to do.


Just because someone builds websites, doesn't mean that they are the right person to build a complicated SQL database structure, or program a backend client management system.

This is so very true. I have been a front end developer for 15 years mostly, does that mean I would know anything about complex SQL? Absolutely not. I know enough to get by with SQL and maybe edit a database but when it gets into complicated query logic you can count me out. I have other people I work with to take on those tasks, but an average amateur wouldn't have a clue.

chixfashionz
08-10-2012, 06:56 AM
This is a difficult process; to find someone you can trust to do the job right, the first time and for the right price. The issue with students (and I used one on an earlier website), is that they do not have the experience or expertise at their fingertips to solve some complex problems that can arise when developing a professional online business.

Your journey will at some point evolve to finding a partnership with a development company who has not only website development, but SEO, public relations and other bits and pieces like social media planning in their kit. You really need to ask a lot of questions to several local businesses and see what their response is. You need to be comfortable working with the project manager, have a set plan about what is to be achieved, when by and at what price.

If you're learning these things as you go, you can end up with a website worked on by several parties that ends up being non-coherent...I've had one of these myself!

Learn from your mistakes, as you are going to make many along the way! Trying to find a developer partner is like trying to find a life partner (husband/wife!). Your first date isn't likely to be the one you marry!

Best of luck!

vangogh
08-13-2012, 03:24 PM
they do not have the experience or expertise at their fingertips to solve some complex problems that can arise when developing a professional online business.

Very true. That's not to say a student can't have these things. There are some great designers who are still in school. Statistically speaking though, most aren't going to have the life and business experience to help you achieve your goals. They may also not quite yet have figured out what it means to be professional. Again not all, but likely most.


Trying to find a developer partner is like trying to find a life partner (husband/wife!). Your first date isn't likely to be the one you marry!

That's a great analogy. Naturally it shouldn't take as long to find a web designer (or any service provider) is it will to find a mate, but the process is remarkably alike in many ways.

Jerieth
01-28-2013, 12:25 PM
Doing your homework is important. I often like to meet with the person or use Skype for a virtual meeting. I like to sign a contract with specific deliverable and milestones and penalties if they don't meet them.

I often ask web developers to submit a proposal plan with goals, the ones that don't I know not to take seriously.

vangogh
01-30-2013, 08:20 PM
I hope that contract also includes deliverables, milestones, and penalties for the client too. More often than not when a site I'm working on goes past deadline, it's because the client didn't send me the content for the site. It's hardly fair to penalize the designer in that instance. Also keep in mind that the more you ask for in a contract to protect yourself, the more likely the project will cost. The people you're hiring are also real people who are taking a chance by agreeing to work for you. They don't know if they can trust you either. Contracts are to protect both parties, but just one.


I often ask web developers to submit a proposal plan with goals

If you're project is large enough in budget or you're willing to pay for the time it takes to write the proposal you can probably ask for one. If not you probably aren't going to end up with a good developer.