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Paper Shredder Clay
08-24-2010, 12:03 PM
I was shocked today to discovered a pretty well-put-together restaurant in Chicago only has a Facebook page instead of a designated website. I personally don't like that and think it looks bad on them, what do you guys think?

vangogh
08-24-2010, 12:51 PM
Website first without a doubt. If you're going to put your business online (and you should) your first step should be your own site. It's your base of operations. Everything else is something you do to add on top of that home base. Darren Rowse called the social places outposts and it makes for a good way of thinking about it. Your site is your main base of operations and everything else is an outpost that ultimately feeds back into your home base.

greenoak
08-25-2010, 06:53 AM
im not suprised..for his customers its a natural .....they are on fb already... .. i look at our website as the top thing like vg says....but not sure thats really right with our customers ...many more use our facebook than our website...
its a part of the customers day...do you have women in your circle? talk to them...
....

also the resturant is like our business ...LOCAL,and facebook is just wonderful for local.... ...its not about seo and getting hits from all over the country or selling anything on line...., its about your neighborhood, where to go what to do, who likes what, ........tons of local networking going on...and almost free advertizing....and possible interaction with people who you actually have sold to and seen in person....
talk to some lady facebook users..its a different thing...my dh is very computer savvy, he can program and do all kinds of stuff and doesnt get facebook at all..... he sees the value in the store because the customers talk about it....... but he really thinks its about telling the world what you had for breakfast, he just doesnt get it.........women a re the driving force for our kind of store and probably resturants too...women usually pick where to go eat or what to buy for their house...im so glad i found facebook becasue they are on there.....
imho...its revolutionary and here to stay....and so easy too, especially for a non tekkie kind of owner...who has possibly had all kinds of trouble with getting a website up and producing....facebook is easy!!! a kid could set it up for you......several stores i know have spent good money for bad results in trying to get on line ...its pretty hard ...and lots of bad computer experts out there.... .
i still make fun of twitter tho....even tho i know thats wrong ..

Harold Mansfield
08-25-2010, 09:52 AM
With the exception of National chains, restaurants have been notoriously horrible about the web. When you do find one that has moved into this century it can be pretty good, but as a whole, the industry is really bad.
It's amazing for me to see so many local places that deliver, for instance, that don't have a website with at the very least their phone number, menu, hours of operation and delivery area. It's tragic. TRAGIC!

vangogh
08-25-2010, 12:07 PM
Ann it's not about who your customers are. Think about it. Naturally for you to make a sale people have to walk into your store. You wouldn't start moving your products to a popular corner in town just because lots of people walk by there. One thing you have to consider with Facebook is tomorrow they could change all the rules. They could decide you can't have a fan page or limit what you can do on that page.

Your own website will always give you more options. If people are currently visiting your Facebook page more than your site it's because you're doing more to promote the Facebook page. Those same people will visit your site if you give them a reason to. Don't get me wrong, Facebook is great and you should be using it, but don't do so at the neglect of your own site. Otherwise you've given complete control over your marketing to another site that could change rules on you at any moment.

Also if you make your site your home base it becomes easier to direct not only your Facebook fans there, but also people from Twitter and StumbleUpon and Delicious, and every other social site out there.

KristineS
08-25-2010, 02:15 PM
I have to agree that a website is always a good first step and I'd do that before trying any kind of social media. Social media is kind of the icing, you use it to inspire people to want to know more.

As for restaurants, I always like to look at menus online. I'll bypass a restaurant that doesn't have a site for one that has a menu online in a heartbeat. It makes deciding where to eat soe much easier.

greenoak
08-25-2010, 06:14 PM
vg.do you have a facebook page?
sorry but i think you are way off on my customers..they are mostly women who are on facebook about every morning and without any effort on their part they see me on their page at least twice a week....with pictures..........im thrilled with the numbers who follow me.......it really is different than the website...i dont thnk most of them would bother with the website every single week like they do with my facebook....they have all been to the website probably...but facebook is more informal and right now... .....my real serious fans go to the blog... but thats a whole nother thing....and weak weak compared to facebook.... i like it the best tho.........
.........! i know you are right it can change....but its a huge part for me NOW.... the value of what you do can change too...when my grandson can build something that can get me 800 fans......thats a whole new playing field.......things are changing ...i see facebook as a big part of our web presence ...its not either or for me.... my website is my home base and its doing its job too.......
also facebook is way easier to play around with and make new everyday...where for me to work on the website means getting my worker involved...i cant do it myself....
im hoping for more facebook users to chime in and tell us whats working on facebook....and how to do it better...
hard to believe the resturants arent doing more...it sounds perfect for them...
hope i dont sound argumentative about this..... im not sure you get my situation....and im real interested in facebook..im benefitting from it a lot.......ann

Patrysha
08-25-2010, 07:14 PM
I'm working my way through a course on Facebook Marketing :-)

greenoak
08-25-2010, 07:24 PM
here are some good ones in my field...vintage charm.....bella chic,[carmel indiana] thats my daughter,... flirt..(.in rochester).
...all 3 have over 500 fans....maybe you can pick up some ideas from them...and come see mine too...greenoakantiques...
my daughters is so conversational!!! and the other 2 use a lot of pictures of their customers...all these are for local businesses and mostly with women...i do have several guys on mine...its so neat ...you can see the demographics by age and sex....

Patrysha
08-25-2010, 07:36 PM
Oh I admin a few pages for my clients and have a page of my own...but I'm not a very FaceBooky type person (hubby is though...eldest son has a profile he never touches) so I am taking a course in FB marketing that I picked up the PLR rights to. I figure if I can work it's magic with the things currently going on, then selling the course later will be a cinch because I'll be able to add verifiable case studies to it. We'll see how it goes though...

greenoak
08-25-2010, 08:07 PM
ok...i just thought you might like to see some active pages...

seolman
08-25-2010, 09:58 PM
I have to be boring and go along with the majority here on "website" not Facebook". Facebook can be an advantage for businesses that fall into one of the following categories:

big name products
celebrities
causes
family connections.

In my experience most smaller businesses get very little advantage using Facebook as a social marketing tool.

vangogh
08-26-2010, 02:50 AM
Ann I don't think I'm off at all. The issue has nothing to do with who your customers are. My clients use Facebook too. They also read newspapers and magazines and watch tv. They do the same thing everyone's customers and clients do.

I understand most of your customers use Facebook and it's a great place for you to connect with them. You are doing that and you should be doing that and I think it's great. I would never tell you to stop using Facebook.

The question is if you could only choose one which should you choose. The answer is always your own website. The reasons are basically two.

1. You'll never be able to do on another site what you can do on your own. Facebook is simply not going to give you the same level of control as you have with your own website so your limiting yourself if you don't have your own site.

2. You're allowing another company to do whatever they want with your business. Your fan page does great today. There's no guarantee Facebook won't remove them tomorrow. If Facebook decided they could make more money by eliminating fan pages they would do so in an instant. Do I think that's going to happen? No. At least not in the near future. The point is they could.

When you give control like that to another business you become completely reliant on a business that doesn't have your interests at heart when it makes a decision. Say Facebook did remove fan pages tomorrow. Now what? How are your customers going to find you online. I realize you have a site, but in this scenario we're saying you don't. If the fan pages are gone your online marketing is gone and all the work you've put in is gone.

You should have a site first and then uses sites like Facebook and Twitter, etc to direct people back to your site. Your site should function as your main base of operations online. All the other sites where you market and meet your community should be seen more as outposts, an extension of what you're doing on your site and a place to direct people back to your main site.

Again I'm not saying you shouldn't use Facebook. The question in this thread was an either/or question though. In that context your own website is the better choice. There's nothing you can do on Facebook that you can't do on your own site. There are plenty of things you can do on your own site that you can't do on Facebook however. I do understand you're finding that your customers are using Facebook. They will also use your site too. In fact you can build everything Facebook has (other than the size of the community there) for free on your own site. Free in the sense that all the applications you need are free.

What Facebook has is a large community and one more time I would never suggest you shouldn't become part of that community, but if you had to choose a site of your own or a Facebook fan page the better choice is always your own site.

Think about it offline. Would you rather have your own store or accept a small corner in someone else's store, a larger store than yours, but one that tells you what you can and can't do with your corner space and offers you no guarantee you'll be allowed to use that corner space tomorrow?

greenoak
08-26-2010, 08:03 AM
i m not disagreeing with most of what you are saying..i hear you...i was saying the same thing mostly...
..but i sure dont think i could do on my webpage what i can do on facebook...its 2 different thngs to me..... and im not too worried about facebook pulling the plug...heck im dealing with hard fact that the dang state of indiana is possibly closing my road..it could happen...things do change...theyve changed before...right now facebook is a huge plus on top of my website , email,tv ads, billboards etc etc.and im just going with it.....but it isnt my store....i havent dropped anything else except a little blog time......
. ......i know my customers use my facebook , they love it....and im there!! its so different a group than dh's golf buddies...imho, if his pro shop tried a page it would probably be a waste of time...
you really are flying in the face of the top retail advice and the whole gift world , their experts, their top people and their publications as well as the industry of consultants popping up to tell us stores how to do it if you really think you could do with your website what you can do with facebook.....nobody in my field of business would buy that...they are 2 tools , and we see them as very different tools... ..
if you told a retail client they could do on their web what they want on facebook you would look very out of touch.... you might thank me for this conversation someday...
.....
my first point was the resturant could probably get on facebook without the hassle of doing a website..probably with the help of one of his waitresses....and developing a good website is a big hassle for some businesses ...who have to choose a person to do it for them when they themselves have no expertize at all in computers or the web....its kindof a nightmare for a lot of places....im lucky there...ive got mine and love it...
well vg...please dont be mad at me....i learn from you every year...and appreciate that you are here...

Harold Mansfield
08-26-2010, 08:18 AM
I think the point here is that Facebook is a great marketing tool, and an awesome extension of your web presence but you don't own it. No matter how successful you are with it, you are still at the mercy of changing terms and conditions that could affect your future success with it.
Over the long haul, a solid web presence that you control and own, is going to give you more legs than the Social Network d'jour.

Just ask the old My Space marketers from a few years back.

Spider
08-26-2010, 09:17 AM
I have more or less given up on Facebook - at least for the time being. For me, it has developed into a daily mix of people trying to sell me stuff (to which I contributed, trying to sell them my stuff) and all the others tryng to motivate me with famous quotes (to which I contributed, also.) Thus, visiting Facebook became like turning on the television to watch the ads! My current use is as a handy way of sending messages to people I know and a way to find out a little about someone I met before taking the association up a notch (in lieu of a personal introduction.)

Otherwise, I'm not finding a great deal of benefit from it beyond the obvious "keeping in touch" social aspect.

Harold Mansfield
08-26-2010, 09:26 AM
I have more or less given up on Facebook - at least for the time being. For me, it has developed into a daily mix of people trying to sell me stuff (to which I contributed, trying to sell them my stuff) and all the others tryng to motivate me with famous quotes (to which I contributed, also.) Thus, visiting Facebook became like turning on the television to watch the ads! My current use is as a handy way of sending messages to people I know and a way to find out a little about someone I met before taking the association up a notch (in lieu of a personal introduction.)

Otherwise, I'm not finding a great deal of benefit from it beyond the obvious "keeping in touch" social aspect.

And you will probably now start to enjoy it more and see some inquiries about your services or products. I stopped trying to sell on Facebook and just started having fun on it..wise cracking with friends, following the stuff that I like, engaging in political discussions and forgot about business...and the phone has been ringing a little more, with a few people saying "I saw you on Facebook and saw your Facebook page...we need..." or, "You came recommend by_______" (a Facebook friend).
I've also been hired by more friends and acquaintances in the last 2 months, then ever before. Actually before that, I never had one previous friend as a client and one of those turned into a referral.

All total, I've gotten 4 gigs from Facebook recently, and the return of past customers that need more work done that messaged me after I responded to one of their posts. Not by marketing my services. I got them by giving up and just networked with people naturally, and personally.
That was supposed to be the point, but I lost my way as well.

Spider
08-26-2010, 09:41 AM
...That was supposed to be the point, but I lost my way as well.Does that mean I can take you off 'Hide' now?!



</joke>

No, really - I was joking. Honest!

: )

Harold Mansfield
08-26-2010, 09:47 AM
Does that mean I can take you off 'Hide' now?!



</joke>

No, really - I was joking. Honest!

: )

I was actually going to message you the other day but I can't remember what for now. Seemed important at the time.

seolman
08-26-2010, 10:23 AM
All of us realize that the real secret to success on the web is building a community. Facebook is a huge community and it can be a great tool for interacting with people. However, as businesses grow needs change.

Things I can do with a web site that Facebook may compliment but cannot achieve on it's own:


Build an email list
Take reservations for an event and store specific data for future use
Take a product order
Accept banner ads from complimentary businesses that may be part of a "symbiotic" business relationship
Display custom information based on the IP address of the visitor (i.e. Latin American visitors are directed to Spanish pages)
Provide articles or in-depth information on subjects important to my site visitors
Store digital downloads of ebooks or product brochures
Etc..


I rarely hear someone say "Hey - did you see the John Deere Facebook page this week?" Unless JD were offering some incentive like "visit our Facebook page and win a free JD riding lawnmower" few persons would be visiting their FB page to see the latest wall postings. Even if they were offering the free riding lawnmower - likely the push would be to their web site because they can capture the emails for future marketing purposes as well as direct potential buyers to a much broader array of products.

Facebook has it's place but it is not nearly the marketing tool a web site is.

Patrysha
08-26-2010, 10:49 AM
Keep in mind to run a contest on FB itself, a company has to commit a minimum of $10,000 to advertise on FB...so an average small business owner is going to have to push the visitors over to their website in order to run a contest in order to comply with the TOS.

Harold Mansfield
08-26-2010, 11:23 AM
I know where you are coming from and agree 100 percent..but you can actually do these things on Facebook



Build an email list
Take reservations for an event and store specific data for future use
Take a product order
Accept banner ads from complimentary businesses that may be part of a "symbiotic" business relationship
Provide articles or in-depth information on subjects important to my site visitors.

.

And where as you can't store the digital downloads, you can link to the download. There are metrics, but not nearly what you would have on a website.

But the bottom line is, Facebook should be used to get people to your site or point of sale, not as stand alone solution....however....if I had absolutely no money..I would spent more time and energy on building a great Facebook presence, than I would using a cheap, or free hosted blog as my website or as my only web presence.

Given a choice between putting a company website on something like Blogger or Building a Facebook page....I'd go for the Facebook page right now. Actually, I'd probably do ONLY a Facebook page until I could scrape together funds for my own site.

seolman
08-26-2010, 12:00 PM
I know where you are coming from and agree 100 percent..but you can actually do these things on Facebook

With respect I disagree. I may be able to contact my followers on Facebook but that is not the same as managing a real email list. How would someone place an order for a product on Facebook..? Send a private message asking you to ship them something with all their shipping details? How can I place a banner ad? Just post something on my wall and provide a link? Not really the same to me. On a web site I control where the ad appears and how often it appears, I manage my visitors and show them the exact information I want them to see and in a way that shows the best side of my business (perhaps with images or illustrations to compliment the text). I don't see how Facebook would be able to do what a web site does.


But the bottom line is, Facebook should be used to get people to your site or point of sale, not as stand alone solution....however....if I had absolutely no money..I would spent more time and energy on building a great Facebook presence, than I would using a cheap, or free hosted blog as my website or as my only web presence.


Given a choice between putting a company website on something like Blogger or Building a Facebook page....I'd go for the Facebook page right now. Actually, I'd probably do ONLY a Facebook page until I could scrape together funds for my own site.

This is very subjective. If I had a bar or restaurant and money was very tight I might do just a Facebook page and let visitors to my establishment know I had the page and "watch for our specials" etc. I could at least highlight a few of the main products I am offering. But if I owned a small machine shop that made injection molds for aircraft parts I would be looking for a free or cheap website option to detail why my shop was more qualified to do such high tech work. As you say - Facebook should lead customers to where you want them to be (in most cases your web site).

Harold Mansfield
08-26-2010, 01:10 PM
With respect I disagree. I may be able to contact my followers on Facebook but that is not the same as managing a real email list. How would someone place an order for a product on Facebook..? Send a private message asking you to ship them something with all their shipping details? How can I place a banner ad? Just post something on my wall and provide a link? Not really the same to me. On a web site I control where the ad appears and how often it appears, I manage my visitors and show them the exact information I want them to see and in a way that shows the best side of my business (perhaps with images or illustrations to compliment the text). I don't see how Facebook would be able to do what a web site does.


Of course FB can't do what a website does, but in a pinch you can get around a few things.
As far as forms go...order forms, contact forms, subscribe forms...without using a 3rd party (and there are a few available that do this for Facebook), you would need to have the original function on your website and code a custom page using those parameters. So in essence the information is actually being taken on your website, using your FB page as a conduit..so you still retain the same functionality and administrative functions...so a person that fills out your FB form, still goes into the database that you have set up on your website.
You can even redirect to your website for the confirmation...a common tactic with forms on FB.

Ads operate the same way. This would of course be on a custom page...you can still insert most types of ads..after all they are only linked images...and still track clicks through a third party app just as you would on your website.
Flash ads won't work with code but, video ads in the right format will. If you convert your flash ads into a video file, you can still embed them on your page. It takes some creativity, but it can be done.

Not saying this is any kind of substitute for having your own site, but you can do a lot with a FB page.

seolman
08-26-2010, 01:54 PM
Of course FB can't do what a website does, but in a pinch you can get around a few things.

As far as forms go...order forms, contact forms, subscribe forms...without using a 3rd party (and there are a few available that do this for Facebook), you would need to have the original function on your website and code a custom page using those parameters. So in essence the information is actually being taken on your website, using your FB page as a conduit..so you still retain the same functionality and administrative functions...so a person that fills out your FB form, still goes into the database that you have set up on your website.
You can even redirect to your website for the confirmation...a common tactic with forms on FB.

Ads operate the same way. This would of course be on a custom page...you can still insert most types of ads..after all they are only linked images...and still track clicks through a third party app just as you would on your website.
Flash ads won't work with code but, video ads in the right format will. If you convert your flash ads into a video file, you can still embed them on your page. It takes some creativity, but it can be done.

Not saying this is any kind of substitute for having your own site, but you can do a lot with a FB page.

This thread is titled "Facebook page OR website" - my comments were based on the benefits of choosing one or the other - not both. However I can see your points about getting more out of Facebook. If someone has to invest time/money in building a custom Facebook page they would probably have the skills or money to build a web site; which direction they go would certainly depend on the type of business they have.

Harold Mansfield
08-26-2010, 02:13 PM
I have a tendency to get off subject..or haven't you noticed?
IMO, everyone should have a website. If you don't have the cash, then you CAN learn something like Wordpress.
If you can't do either..learn or afford, then you aren't serious about your business and you should take a step back and ask your self what you are hoping to accomplish.
That's just my opinion.

seolman
08-26-2010, 03:36 PM
Hehe...I'm always getting off-topic - I appreciate all the very good points you made - it;s obvious you have a lot of web experience. I was just playing a bit of devils advocate ;)

Harold Mansfield
08-26-2010, 03:42 PM
Hehe...I'm always getting off-topic - I appreciate all the very good points you made - it;s obvious you have a lot of web experience. I was just playing a bit of devils advocate ;)

Oh no! Not another one. I'll let you and Spider battle it out till the death for that title.

vangogh
08-28-2010, 01:06 AM
i sure dont think i could do on my webpage what i can do on facebook...its 2 different thngs to me..... and im not too worried about facebook pulling the plug

Ann you personally may not be able to do one your website what you can do on Facebook, but it can be done. It really isn't that hard. What Facebook has the most sites don't is a large community. Everything you do on Facebook though, the marketing, the connecting with your customers, etc. are all things that can be done on your own site. You also don't need the large community of Facebook for that. You mentioned having 800 fans, which is great. Without too much work you could also have 800 people subscribed to your blog or joining a forum on your site or joining the same kind of social network Facebook has except on your site.


if you told a retail client they could do on their web what they want on facebook you would look very out of touch.... you might thank me for this conversation someday

umm…no I wouldn't look out of touch. There is nothing you can do on Facebook that you couldn't do on your own site. There is a lot though you can't do on Facebook that you can do on your site. The only thing Facebook has that you wouldn't have on your site is the large community. Yes, you go to Facebook to market your business and interact with your customers and you direct those people back to your site.


and developing a good website is a big hassle for some businesses ...who have to choose a person to do it for them when they themselves have no expertize at all in computers or the web

Did you build the physical store your business is in? Did you build Facebook? Did you build the computer you use to connect to Facebook? Why is it you think you have to build your own website?

greenoak
08-28-2010, 08:56 AM
i mostly agree ,..but i think it would be MUCH MORE accurate to say facebook cant do nearly as good a job as a website IN WHAT A WEBSITE DOES....thats so true and obvious..our website is big and rich...facebook is just a few words...the blog is much more dear to my heart ..but neither gets me 800 readers when i post.......i hope all my facebook fans get on my website...thats my goal....

my points are more about the big difference in how facebook is used....im on my fans page they dont have to do anythng to make that happen after their initail pushing my like button..............im on 800 peoples pages 2 mornings a week without them making any effort.......twice a week, week after week.... unless they get bored and drop me.... so rare...ha ha ..... its a new thing , its easily part of the users day...thats what im after and happy about and trying to explain to you......
and the different ways i can interact with the customers/fans is nothing like the way they interact with my website..they can email me from the website but they dont chat with me on there.... ..thats the kind of skill and info im trying to learn and get better at.... for instance if i have a picture of 10 customers in my store i can put it on my facebook page and tag them that makes the picture appear on all their pages.... that is huge...thinking each of them might have 200 friends.... times 10....
... or for 20$$$ i can send an ad to thousands of my target woman...homeowner, married and 30 to 60 yrs old and within 50 miles of my store.....and have it appear on their facebook on the right hand side...that is not a website ability .....
there is a lot more also...including i see the reaction in person at the store...
i wish i wasnt out here all by myself ..... im really not alone in thinking facebook is a huge and very different advertizing opportunity for stores and all kinds of LOCAL businesses....especially ones aiming at women..and women make almost all the retail and food and even car decisions.....i never said stores shouldnt have a website...
i think a internet marketer to us stores should be up to date on facebook and really get how its used by the fans and by successful stores using it.......that would mean having knowledge and a good answer to the question...should we use clicks or impressions ?....if an internet coach/consultant or marketer said i dont know or what are you talking about ...the store would know the marketer hadnt done much with facebook....thats what i mean by being out of touch....
on the subject of website building.... i have mine and very satisfied with it.....lots of my peers want one and dont know what to do, or worse have paid for one and gotten crap........when they build a house they can talk to friends about a good contractor or who to avoid...they at least know the words, rafters, concrete, sink, roof,,,,etc etc..... when these stores try for a website they just can get in a huge mess...they know nothing and cant really judge the provider....they can easily pay a lot and not get what they thought they were getting....i have anecdotal evidence only on this...but some real horror stories....ive tried to send a couple of stores your way vg...but they went withthe local guy who isnt in business anymore....

i get computer help and opinions on here all the time,...you know and share lots of stuff i havent got a clue about.... can i say im just trying to help you understand a stores view ?..i do know a bit about a stores needs and wants and how they look at their internet options out in the brick and mortar world where i make my living...........

vangogh
08-28-2010, 01:03 PM
they dont have to do anythng to make that happen after their initail pushing my like button

The same thing happens when people click the button to subscribe to a blog. If set up right they can subscribe via an rss reader (built into all modern browsers no). They can get your content delivered by email if they prefer. They can even add it to a portal page like Google or Yahoo. Oh and your blog feed can be set to automatically be published on Facebook.

Not everyone uses an rss reader, but everyone uses email and most people have some default start page, which of course may be Facebook as well as others. Those things are part of people's days too, especially email.

Ann I understand what you're saying. Your customers spend time at Facebook and so it makes sense for you to have a presence on Facebook. I completely agree.


i can interact with the customers/fans is nothing like the way they interact with my website

The key to the above is that you're talking about your website. Your website can be set up so you can interact with people the same way you interact with them on Facebook. Just because your website isn't set up to be able to do that doesn't mean it can't be done. There are plenty of sites that are set up that way where thousands and tens of thousands of people interact with the site, the site owner, and each other every day.

Now I'm not suggesting you can change your site to do those things by yourself overnight. It would require someone who knows how to set up and you'd have to put in the effort to get people to your site. The advantage of Facebook is that the people are already there. You still need to get them to your specific corner of Facebook. Imagine though that all the time you've been promoting your fan page you had been promoting your own site (with similar functionality). Would you have the same 800+ fans at your site? Maybe. Probably not. Maybe you'd have 600 fans at your site. However since it's on your own site under your own control you would be able to interact with those people in more and deeper ways than you could at Facebook since you'd have more control over your site.

Again I would never tell you not have a fan page at Facebook. You absolutely should and I think it's great you've been having success with it. There is a trade off though. You're giving up a level of control over your marketing and customer relationships in exchange for being able to more quickly build your following. You also risk losing everything at any moment, since Facebook is the one who determines what can and can not happen on their site.

I don't think Facebook is going away any time soon. The site will be there tomorrow. However there's no guarantee fan pages will be there or maybe they'll be there, but Facebook is deciding to charge significant money to have one. Or maybe they change things in such a way that you can't interact with people the way you are now. The possibility of any of these things happening is very realistic. Just a few months ago Facebook tried to change it so you couldn't have a custom landing page unless you had 10,000 fans or spent enough money advertising within Facebook. In the end you have to remember Facebook is always going to make decisions about their business to benefit their business. Those decisions may not always benefit you.

My point in all this is that everything you're doing on Facebook and the reasons you like it can also be done on your site. It will require more effort to set up the technology (though probably not as much effort as you might think) and it might require more time to build a community around your site as it would to build one around Facebook. But your website will be there as long as you want it to be there, unlike Facebook, which can change at a moment's notice and you can actually do more on your site since you aren't limited by what Facebook says you can do.

Your website is ultimately the better choice for long term success. Facebook makes short term success easier at the risk of it all going away for any number of reasons.

greenoak
08-29-2010, 08:08 AM
thanks for your time vg...i guesss we better drop this..but and so sorry i cant just drop this!! ... lol......just one more point..i want to go with their flow not try to educate them to go with mine....that seems so much smarter to me.... and i still get them to my website...which im not neglecting...
..they probably dont know what an rss feed is and why would they go to the website 3 or 4 times a week ? i definitely dont update my website 3 or 4 times a week every week like i can do in minutes on facebook...i cant imagine a store trying for what you described..i hear you that a website COULD do it but what about the customers...why would they bother? ......i dont think it would work...the customers love facebook........ if you ever have a store website to show me that accomplishes talking to 800 probably actual customers 2 or 3 times a week with new info and new picrtures everytime i would love to see it....i dont mean a national company i mean a small brick and mortar company like me..
our website is working great for our store....too good to want to change it anytime soon.....we hear about it all the time...
i have so many facebook questions i hope we get some experienced small business users on here.... we will be deciding on some fall ads soon.... i am confused about picking the categories...should it be lots of just a few.... ..also have some questions about best ways to use the share function... ...
thanks vg...

prettyimpress
08-29-2010, 10:31 AM
Well, if I have my own business, I would build a website. but not only facebook page, because it make people feel informal.

Harold Mansfield
08-29-2010, 11:08 AM
Ann I think the whole point that VG is trying to make is that Facebook didn't invent social interaction, communities and networking...they were just the ones with several $100 million dollars to make it easy for everyone to do by pressing a few big shiny buttons.

When he is saying that you can have the interaction on your website that you have with Facebook, that is accurate..webmasters and website owners were doing it before Facebook came along and many continue to do it without the aid of a 3rd party website.

Yes, it takes knowledge, time and/or money to build a user friendly community that works. Some do it with big flashy websites and some have just a basic blog set up but still generate 100's of comments every time they post.

Facebook makes it easy, because they have invested millions to get as many people as possible to be on their network and at this point in the game it is likely that if you create a page a good majority of your existing clients will already be on the network so they can just press a button to join you. Certainly easier for you and everyone else who doesn't have the time, knowledge or money to build their own community around their brand...it's like fishing with a bucket in stocked pond...if you scoop a few times, you are bound to come up with fish sooner or later...but that same tactic won't work if you are sent out in the ocean to fend for yourself.

Basically we are benefiting from their marketing, money and expertise to connect with our clients who were already there.

Don't get me wrong...I love Facebook and am amazed at it. But connecting and interacting with associates and clients over the web is not new. It's just more accessible to the average person now that Facebook has been on a mission to capture everyone on the web.

Back in the day (a few years ago), A lot of businesses saw the same success with MSN groups, Spaces, and many of the other early networking services and message boards where some businesses and people had 100's of thousands of members. Many of them shut down or changed the format from free to paid..like Ning..and left a lot of people who otherwise had no web marketing knowledge, out in the cold.

That's the danger of relying on a site like Facebook. No matter how convenient it is now, the last 5 years on the web have taught me that free 3rd party community sites come and go and change the rules all of the time.

Spider
08-29-2010, 12:32 PM
I think VG and Harold, and other "Website-first" proponents, are missing the point that it might seem as if you can do on your website what you can do on Facebook, but that really is not the case for most people. The website-firsters have a passion for the web-world and that is good - that is their world and they love it.

Here's where I will side with Ann. People go to Facebook to talk about all sorts of stuff (mostly crap, but that may be what they think I do!) People will not go to many different websites to talk about lots of different things, and they certainly won't go to only one website to talk about lots of dfferent things. People are complex, they have lots of different interests. They will go to Ann's site and may even become part of a community that talks mostly about furniture and antiques, but when they want to talk about babies, let's say, they want to talk about babies with other people who are not into antique furniture, so they go to another site, one that is about babies. They are also into gardening - not many people talking about gardening on the 'babies' website, so they have to find a gardening website to join a gardening community.

They can do all of these things and more at one place called Facebook. No amount to tweaking a personal website will give you the diversity that people want. (Nor would you want to.) There will be some people who are antique furniture aficionadas who only want to talk about that stuff, and a website is perfect for them, but for most people Facebook is a better choice.

As for the possibility/probability of Facebook changing their policies and making itself less suitable, that's life. It's called progress. Something will replace it, if there is enough demand. People can just as easily lose interest in an individual website.

I say, choose the one that suits you best, and if they both serve a purpose have both.

vangogh
08-29-2010, 01:26 PM
and i still get them to my website...which im not neglecting

Which is exactly what you should be doing. The question in this thread though wasn't about having both a website and a Facebook account. It was having to choose between one or the other.


but what about the customers...why would they bother?

The same reason they bother interacting with you on Facebook, which is presumably that they want to interact with you.


they probably dont know what an rss feed is and why would they go to the website 3 or 4 times a week

They don't have to know what rss is or visit your site. I mentioned in the post above that your content could easily be delivered to them via email, something they most likely will see more often than anything you say on Facebook. Also you can set up much of what Facebook has fairly easily and inexpensively. Right now WordPress has a social plugin called BuddyPress. You can allow people to sign up have profiles, interact with each other and you, in mostly the same way they do on Facebook. You keep saying why would they go to your site. Why do they go to Facebook? They're going to interact with people. They can do that on Facebook or your site or any of the tons of other sites where people interact with each. Seems like a fair amount of people show up here each day to interact with each other. It won't happen instantly or automatically, but it can happen much easier than you think.


if you ever have a store website to show me that accomplishes talking to 800 probably actual customers 2 or 3 times a week with new info and new picrtures everytime i would love to see it

I'll look and see what I find. However even if I don't find a site that convinces you I don't think that proves your point. Just because small businesses may not be doing something doesn't mean it can't or shouldn't be done. The majority of small brick and mortar businesses have yet to figure out the web. Also it would seem logical that you find them mainly by being a customer of the store so it may be hard for me to find a good example. I will try though.


you can have the interaction on your website that you have with Facebook

Exactly and even more the interactions you have with people on your site are going to be stronger. They aren't talking to you simply because you happen to be on Facebook. They're talking to you because they sought you out and want to talk to you.


No matter how convenient it is now, the last 5 years on the web have taught me that free 3rd party community sites come and go and change the rules all of the time.

Again, exactly. If we had this conversation a few years ago we might be having it about MySpace or Friendster. It's not so much about a site going away completely. It's simply that they can change the rules at any time and they often do. And when they do it won't be your best interests behind their decision, it will be there. If your interests align with theirs, no problem. If your interests don't align with theirs be prepared to lose everything you've worked on.


I think VG and Harold, and other "Website-first" proponents, are missing the point that it might seem as if you can do on your website what you can do on Facebook

Not missing that point at all. I think it's more that you non-website firsters are missing the point that what you do on Facebook today you may not be able to do tomorrow and you have absolutely no control over it. It's never smart business to give so much control over your business to another company.


People will not go to many different websites to talk about lots of different things

Sure they will. Are you suggesting that people hop on the web, go to Facebook, and then hop off the web? People will visit many more sites than one. If they like your site, what you say on your site, you, etc. they will visit you regularly.


They can do all of these things and more at one place called Facebook. No amount to tweaking a personal website will give you the diversity that people want

So basically you're interacting with people who aren't really there to interact with you. You both just happened to pass each other by in the mall, exchange a few pleasantries, and move on. Not exactly the kind of interaction you probably wanted. In general social media interactions tend to be more shallow and for less duration. You're trading one meaningful conversation on your site for 5 less meaningful conversations on Facebook.


As for the possibility/probability of Facebook changing their policies and making itself less suitable, that's life. It's called progress. Something will replace it, if there is enough demand. People can just as easily lose interest in an individual website.

Progress for Facebook, not necessarily for you. Again I point to the idea that what you're doing by choosing Facebook over your site is going for the short term and easy as opposed to putting in the effort to build something lasting. Sticking with Ann's situation, what happens if Facebook decides to shut down fan pages tomorrow? What happens to those 800 people. Fortunately for Ann she has a site where people can still go. If she didn't she could easily go from reaching 800 people to none overnight. She could put in years of effort building a following and find that following taken away one day .

As for your last point about people losing interest it really has nothing to do with this. If people lose interest in your business than it's irrelevant where you're interacting with them. However it's much more likely they would lose interest in the general site than the more specific site.

Harold Mansfield
08-29-2010, 01:54 PM
And you have to also take into consideration of Facebooks limitations. I don't care how many people you have on Facebook, Twitter and all of the others, unless you are capturing their information, you are still throwing big net to catch a housefly.
Successful marketers spend more keeping customers, than getting new ones.

The downside of building your community base on a 3rd party website is the communication limitations. You basically have to direct them away from that community to achieve the ultimate goal...more sales.
Where as tried and true marketers would have contact information for those 800 people and send them a monthly sales page or catalog to increase sales.
As much as I hate to admit it, Amazon entices me at east once week, most times successfully, to purchase something new.

Now I'm sure that many of that 800 is pre-existing customers and FB is just another way to interact with them

It's a great thing to have and I love it but I remember a recent client of mine that had a very busy Live Spaces Group (or whatever MS called it). Over 100k members that teetered on her every word, bought products and books and interacted about all kinds of things...took many months to build it...and then MS pulled the plug on the service. Overnight 100k members of the community dispersed. When the word was put out that they were ending the service, she did the right thing and started her own self hosted forum, but still lost thousands of people that she will likely never get back.

That's the risk when you don't build your own.
Facebook is a social tool, and a great one, but your own stuff should be your bread and butter and where you put most of your efforts.

The possibility of FB selling out or merging is very real. That's what the web does and if you need any examples of what happens after that, just look at My Space after Viacom purchased them or AOL when they merged with Time/Warner.

I'll say it again, I love FB, but to me a successful community is the one that I have in my own contacts.

vangogh
08-29-2010, 02:08 PM
Ann I just realized the impossibility of trying to find the kind of site you want me to find. You're asking me to find a brick and mortar store with a website that clearly shows a community of 800+ people that doesn't use Facebook. Many of those sites are going to be using Facebook or Twitter or the like to help build the community on their own site. I've also never suggested not using Facebook, just that you shouldn't do so in the absence of your own site.

I did find an example showing the opposite of what you want me to find, but one that shows why I think using another site as your sole online presence is bad. Here's the profile of an antique shop here in Boulder (http://maps.google.com/maps/place?num=100&hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=aN7&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&um=1&ie=UTF-8&q=boulder+colorado+antiques&fb=1&gl=us&hq=antiques&hnear=Boulder,+CO&cid=14735220139762607413). I didn't see where they had a website. They're using a Google profile to market their business. Scroll down on the page to Nearby Places you may like. That's basically a listing of this stores competitors here in town. How much do you think that profile is helping them market their site.

I realize the above example is not from Facebook, but think about it. Do you think Facebook won't start selling ads for competitors on your Fan Page at some point? It would seem like a very good way for them to make money. How would you feel if your competitors were listed there? Do you think it would be good for your business?

billbenson
08-29-2010, 02:17 PM
So basically you're interacting with people who aren't really there to interact with you. You both just happened to pass each other by in the mall, exchange a few pleasantries, and move on. Not exactly the kind of interaction you probably wanted. In general social media interactions tend to be more shallow and for less duration. You're trading one meaningful conversation on your site for 5 less meaningful conversations on Facebook.


I think that is an important point. With an antique store, you want people that are interested in buying antiques in the store. With a website, you want targeted traffic in most cases. With Facebook, it sounds like you can't get targeted traffic that easily. 800 followers != 800 prospect customers.

greenoak
08-29-2010, 05:17 PM
..and most of those 800 hAVE BEEN IN MY STORE AND ARE WITHIN 100 MILES OF ME.....they like my store ...thats why they clicked my like button...so its not entirely shallow..its a wonderful database is it not????...many are on our emalil list too probably....but dont forget all their friends can see my site too....
i really dont disagree with most of this...
and i dont see any reason to pull back from my facebook effort..its not either or for me.....my plan is to make the most of my facebook and enjoy the big benefits i am getting while they last.... and at the same time keep my web and blogs going....ive networked a lot in the last 5 or 6 yrs....but this facebook is the best and most local and hitting my target audience,,, the busy busy soccer mom that, like spider says, might be talking about babies but sees my facebook and interesting pictures while shes rushing thru her morning...im really happy about all this.... and like i keep saying she usually goes to my website too...but not 2 or 3 times a week....
vg....i dont really have any local competitiors ...so i dont care about the side ads...so far facebook is all good for me...

Harold Mansfield
08-29-2010, 07:07 PM
Ann, no one is trying to discourage you. I'm actually very happy and proud that you are working it and getting the results that you are.
Just discussing the whole picture. That's all.
Keep doing what you are doing...actually I suggest doing even more of it, but always keep working little by little bring that loyalty and interaction to the site that you actually own, not someone else's. You have a head start.
That's all I'm saying.

vangogh
08-29-2010, 07:29 PM
and most of those 800 hAVE BEEN IN MY STORE AND ARE WITHIN 100 MILES OF ME.....they like my store

And those people would also interact with you on your site. They're interacting with you. If those interactions are genuine, which it sounds like they are, they'd continue anywhere.

Like Harold said no one is suggesting you pull away from Facebook. Understand this thread started more as a theoretical question. If you could only choose one should you build a site or set up on Facebook's site. I think the answer is always build your site first, then move out to Facebook. You have a very specific and different situation than most. You're saying you have no competition within 100 miles and the people you're talking to on Facebook are also people you're talking to in person in your store. In that case you're using Facebook more as a personal network than a marketing network. I realize there's a marketing benefit and you set up a page as the store because it's the easier way for people to find you.


its not either or for me

I agree. In real life it isn't and shouldn't be. But again this thread started with an either/or question. Thats where our answers are coming from. In the scenario in this thread you have to make the choice. For the overwhelming majority of business the better choice is always going to be to choose the website.

Spider
08-30-2010, 05:23 PM
How about this - for the either/or question.

1. It is faster to get set up on Facebook than to build one's own website, or have one built for you, so start with Facebook. The answer to the either/or question is "Facebook."

2. Then, when the question is no longer on the table, and the Facebook interactions are beginning to take place (by the end of the first day!) - and before Facebook closes down the business pages and destroys all your work - get cracking on your "real" website.

3. Then, when your "real" website is finished and ready for launching, you have some followers - from Facebook - who can be invited to your site launching.

Call it "Spider's Fast Track Web Presence Launch."



Or not!

vangogh
08-30-2010, 11:16 PM
That's not either/or. That's which to do first. Here's the OP as a reminder


I was shocked today to discovered a pretty well-put-together restaurant in Chicago only has a Facebook page instead of a designated website. I personally don't like that and think it looks bad on them, what do you guys think?

The scenario is someone set up a Facebook page and doesn't have a website at all. I think as far as this thread is considered we only get one and you have to pick which.

As far as real life there's no reason not to have both a website and a Facebook page and a Twitter account and a…well you get the idea.

In this thread though we only get to pick one. It's why I'm so adamant about that choice being a website. If you have one choice and you pick Facebook over your website you run the risk that you'll lose all the time and effort you've put in on the whim of Facebook. I doubt Facebook itself will go away any time soon, but there's no reason to think the page you have there today will be allowed to exist as in a few months or even days from now.

Again in the real world this isn't an issue. You get both as well as a variety of other social profiles. I'd still say your website is the most important part of your online marketing and think it's still the best first choice to work on. However if you're planning on having both a site and a Facebook page in 2 or 6 months time I'm not sure it matters that much.

Spider
08-30-2010, 11:54 PM
So, my attempt at compromise didn't work. Oh well! I was just getting into practice for the Netenyahoo/Abbis meeting due in Washington soon!

Harold Mansfield
08-31-2010, 09:54 AM
So, my attempt at compromise didn't work. Oh well! I was just getting into practice for the Netenyahoo/Abbis meeting due in Washington soon!

No, not at all. It's a viable plan in the absence of not having money for a website right away and that is probably what I would do. And to keep it some what professional, I would at least secure my domain ($10) and create my business email address (free) and throw an "under construction" sign or something on the domain.

It's a start and you can still dish out a professional business card and email signature when communicating with people.

vangogh
08-31-2010, 10:46 AM
So, my attempt at compromise didn't work.

Never. I will never give up or give in :)

Like I said in the real world everything you said makes sense and truthfully in the real world we're not having a back and forth on this. I was arguing my point based on the specifics of this thread, which seemed to be if you get one you can't get the other.

greenoak
08-31-2010, 05:51 PM
so sorry vg....i wasnt paying any attiention to your rules..........kind of like the posters on my 2 kinds thread when they totally ignored what i was posting about and totally ran off track.... and into advising me on shipping..instead of commenting on my example of a great can do type of business person.....
weve gained 15 more fans on our facebook page this week...!!!! .
i figure about every business wants a site but cant deal with the ways they have to get one....so many hurdles..maybe money but also providers and just the hassle of trying to do something totally outside your personal realm of expertize..........i love ours...and so glad we did it years ago......
also dont forget ...yes, facebook can change...as can the web habits of people or even google or seo....or whatever comes next...
like now i watch tv with few or no commercials and on my own time sechedule ....its wonderful...but a lot of companies used commercials for a long time...and still do...

BizzySusan
08-31-2010, 08:50 PM
I believe Facebook is a great tool for a business. I had a Facebook page set up before I had my website up and working. But I had every intention of the website. I work and network a lot with work at home moms and some of them only do Facebook. Of course, being that my business is getting people a website I always do my best to talk to them. But some are just content with it. I don't totally understand it other than its free.

vangogh
08-31-2010, 08:55 PM
They weren't my rules. It was a comment/question from Clay that started the discussion. The thing is we were debating different things as the thread moved along. Harold and I were never saying you shouldn't use Facebook and our views were based on the idea that you couldn't have both a website and a Facebook Page. You had to choose one or the other. In real life both Harold and I would say to have a site and use Facebook. I think the concept of having to choose one or the other somehow got lost.

Threads do change course. Sometimes for the better and sometimes not so much. In your other threads try to post again to get them back on track. if it doesn't work wait a few days and start a new thread on the same topic.


i figure about every business wants a site but cant deal with the ways they have to get one....so many hurdles

Obviously building sites is what I do for a living, but I don't think there are nearly as many hurdles as you seem to think. Anyone who's capable of registering a domain and opening a hosting account is capable of clicking a button or two and installing WordPress or Drupal or any of the other content management systems that likely comes included with your hosting. WordPress makes installing themes and plugins a few button clicks as well.

Other than the domain and hosting, the site itself can actually be installed in minutes by anyone who can type and use a mouse and it can be done for free. I do think most people will end up with a better site when they hire a professional to create a design and work on the site. I think the same thing is true in regards to hiring a copywriter and marketing person or team.

I realize hiring all those people starts adding up, but these are not huge business expenses we're talking about and they'll all have a positive return if you hire good people. Many people who talk about the difficulty in getting a good website are having difficulty because they tired to do all the work themselves or because instead of hiring quality people, they looked for the cheapest people. A website is a big part of your business and it's something to invest in.

As far as Facebook going away I agree it won't go anywhere, anytime soon. However I would point out that if we had this same conversation a few years ago we would have been having it about MySpace and not Facebook. It's very possible 3 or 4 years from now we'll be having it about a site none of us currently knows about. And even if we are still talking Facebook, there might no longer be Pages as we know them or it may cost a monthly subscription to have one.

greenoak
09-01-2010, 07:40 AM
if you hire good people is the key...lots of people offer services and are proclaimed as experts.......... we brick and mortar businessses are bombarded with experts, especially computer professionals and marketing people.......trust me on this.......and if its out of your field , like if you are a great florist and have to judge the expert computer guys actual ability , well you are not in a good decision making spot.... you just dont know..its not really about price either....i mostly know women business owners and dont know one who tried building a site herself....how could they? the ones i know wouldnt even go there.......but i know several who should have a site and could afford a site and wont try or did try to find someone and got and paid for really bad work from a self proclaimed expert..its not like they are trying to go the cheapest way or do it themselves..why do you think that? ..... they do usually want local not some one on the internet no ones ever heard of....there are hundreds out on the internet trying to sell to us..
we did do our own site....but i think we are the exception..it wasnt becasue of the money...more becausue i figured we could do it and didnt see anyone around who i thought could do it...that was a long time ago......and our site does what a lot of businesses hope for ...it brings customers and good buzz...
i have really high marketing standards. which is usually a problem.... ive dealt with 2 what i would call good professional marketing people in the last few years..one was the guy who did our tv ad.....he was smart and clear in his talking...i knew what he needed and he knew what i wanted... .he observed our thing, he listened, he plotted out his filming , he wasnt in a rush....he was fast and then condensed pages of info and 2 hours of filming into 30 secs..all on site.. and made a good product and was able to tweak a teeny amount and he got it done on a deadline...he did everything he said ..the other person sold me a ready made website, with our name on it......that i never used...but not her fault..she was super clear about what she was selling and what it would do and what it wouldnt do....and i could see it in action on other places.you helped me a lot on this vg....thank you.....neither one was cheap to deal with...
otherwise my professional marketing experiences have been really poor....way under what we have done ourselves..usually local newspapers and radio people....we do have high standards...but its because we respect the value of good marketing and a good web presence...

..just imagine vg...if you had to pick someone totally outside of your field of interest or ability...like a manicurist for nails that flashed off and on in 3 d........
small businesses are flooded with experts and expert advice....and lots of it from talented folks who know our field..... ..our trade magazines are flooded with advice,...every trade show has expert marketers speaking to us....some are really great.... ..and on the internet its even more so..all kinds of folks wanting to serve us ...with or without any experience.....there are tons of blogs and all kinds of marketers offering to save us or lead us to the good side...and its kind of like the bible ...the advice can be all over the map........
you might say retail stores are kind of expert on experts...and its not always a pretty picture!!! we have tons to pick from....i do thnk we can judge marketing professionals a lot easier than computer experts....at least we know what we are looking at..we know a good ad if we see one...or how we want our store to look or a little about what good style means in our field...or the good words in our field..we can see what works..........as opposed to rss, seo, etc etc...
i do like some marketing experts a whole lot...like john shallert...and most have something good to offer... dont get me wrong...
im afraid most stores say what they want from the computer guy and he says sure i can do that.......and they arent even close to the same thing..she sees a great site, beautiful with the ability of zappos and he sees her money and brings in a crappy little thing that does about 4 things....both unprofessoinal....but those events are giving you all a bad rep...so unfair but its out there...

Spider
09-01-2010, 09:42 AM
Excellent post, Ann. It's all very well saying, "Use people who know what they are doing, and they aren't cheap," but finding people who know what they are doing with only their price as a guide is no guide at all. All a crappy web-maker has to do is raise his price and he has positioned himself in the "expert" camp! There's a great deterent!

Design is a strange discipline, I find. It can make or break a product. Look at two automobiles and you can say I like this design or I don't, but cars have design. How much design goes into a frying pan? More than many would suppose - and how much does design of the pan affect sales? Who knows. And with a website, what are the design elements and what are their effects? I'll bet the honest webdesigner will say, "We are still finding out."

I don't see an easy solution. Small retailers will just have to keep shelling out their money so the world can discover what works and what doesn't and to allow the good website-makers to bubble to the surface.

Harold Mansfield
09-01-2010, 10:23 AM
Ann, I think a lot of choosing a marketing or design person to work with is knowing what you want. That is difficult because there are so many directions to take. If you don't know what can be done, it's hard to know what you need or want.
All websites aren't created equal nor are all designers fluent in every aspect of web design. Furthermore, just because a designer is fluent, doesn't meant that their style or vision will match yours.

The confusion today its that everyone and their mother is a self proclaimed Internet Marketing, Social Networking, or Social Media expert. And recently, I see a mass influx of Business and Life Coaches.
Kind of reminds me of 15 years ago when everyone was a day trader, or 8 years ago when everyone was a real estate or mortgage expert.

We all go through it and due diligence is just part of choosing a good service provider. In most cases, outside of a referral from a friend or business associate, you may use providers that YOU have never heard but, that's not to say no one else has. Outside of being in a particular industry , how many companies would you know anyway? For most of the different professions on this forum, many of the people here are the only ones I know in those professions...unless I've had clients that did it.

Life is full of hiring people outside of our area of expertise, whether it be finding a good lawyer, mechanic to fix our cars, electrician, plumber, even something as simple as choosing an ISP for internet service. There are good and bad in all and mass amounts of marketing doesn't make one an expert or better than another anymore than the opposite is true.

Spider is correct. There is no easy solution. We just get better over time at finding the right people to work with.

billbenson
09-01-2010, 01:11 PM
Ann, I think a lot of choosing a marketing or design person to work with is knowing what you want. That is difficult because there are so many directions to take. If you don't know what can be done, it's hard to know what you need or want.
All websites aren't created equal nor are all designers fluent in every aspect of web design. Furthermore, just because a designer is fluent, doesn't meant that their style or vision will match yours.

The confusion today its that everyone and their mother is a self proclaimed Internet Marketing, Social Networking, or Social Media expert. And recently, I see a mass influx of Business and Life Coaches.
Kind of reminds me of 15 years ago when everyone was a day trader, or 8 years ago when everyone was a real estate or mortgage expert.

We all go through it and due diligence is just part of choosing a good service provider. In most cases, outside of a referral from a friend or business associate, you may use providers that YOU have never heard but, that's not to say no one else has. Outside of being in a particular industry , how many companies would you know anyway? For most of the different professions on this forum, many of the people here are the only ones I know in those professions...unless I've had clients that did it.

Life is full of hiring people outside of our area of expertise, whether it be finding a good lawyer, mechanic to fix our cars, electrician, plumber, even something as simple as choosing an ISP for internet service. There are good and bad in all and mass amounts of marketing doesn't make one an expert or better than another anymore than the opposite is true.

Spider is correct. There is no easy solution. We just get better over time at finding the right people to work with.

This is why I think every business person should have a hobby site and do everything possible to get it ranked well on Google. The purpose is not to become a web designer, but you learn a lot about what can be done, marketing etc., and can better choose a web designer or programmer.

KristineS
09-01-2010, 05:38 PM
The confusion today its that everyone and their mother is a self proclaimed Internet Marketing, Social Networking, or Social Media expert. And recently, I see a mass influx of Business and Life Coaches.
Kind of reminds me of 15 years ago when everyone was a day trader, or 8 years ago when everyone was a real estate or mortgage expert.


This is one of my biggest pet peeves right now. It started when I worked in SEO for a bit. Anyone who wants to can claim they are an SEO expert and scam people out of their money because I lot of people don't know much about SEO. Then it switched to social media. Everyone who's had a Twitter account for longer than five minutes can position themselves as a social media expert, even when all their followers are mostly useless and their content is mostly junk.

It falls to the consumer to do their research. Take a look at what people are doing and not just what they're saying. Ask for references. Check and double check what you're told. If it doesn't feel right in your gut, don't do it.

I've never been one for requiring everyone to have accreditation and such, but there are times when I think it would make things easier. In the end I suppose a person's accreditation is their results. If someone can show you proven results, then they might be worth trying out.

greenoak
09-01-2010, 05:41 PM
i hear you on the coaches and consultants...its amazing...one i know of real well just closed her store and owes thousands of $$$ and is a good writer....and is trying for a consulting business to small stores....like the one she couldnt keep afloat!!! shes getting some takers too....
if i had a coach i would like to think he had at least run a money making business at one time or another.........
good points bill., your way would work so well as a start.... they would learn a lot and be able to move up and make better decisions.........i think everyone expects a busness to have a site.... i always try to get newbies to go for a simple brochure site...and keep it super simple at the start...just pictures and the hours and a little more.....usually they go for way more and it doesnt work out...

Spider
09-02-2010, 12:02 AM
I've had a money-making business so you'd think I would be all for "making sure your business coach has run a money-making business." But I always try to look at both sides of any coin. In my view, someone who has tried and failed in business a dozen times has far more business knowledge than a person who has only ever had one business that succeeded. You don't learn much from success, but you learn a hell of a lot from failing!

greenoak
09-02-2010, 08:26 AM
thats so true spider.i got super lessons from our failed store 30 yrs ago....but still you made something work....yu did good!!! and i woud want that in a coach..
..also coachng is wierd...i had a millionaire family member...and he couldnt really reveal to me how he did it in business, past the history part... ....how he looked at things in a millionaire way..... he just wasnt that introspective or communicative or even interested in the subject...
.so i guess my ideal coach would be talky, nice, smart and rich!!!!....
i cant imagine who would even hire a coach...ive heard of life coaches....ikkk...is it like interior decorators?? or big brothers? or is it kind and charity work?
do you get mostly mousy self esteem weak people? or totally high roller wannabees or what? what if you cant fix them?

Spider
09-02-2010, 09:27 AM
thats so true spider.i got super lessons from our failed store 30 yrs ago....but still you made something work....yu did good!!! and i woud want that in a coach...Does that mean you are going to hire me?! ;-)


...also coachng is wierd...i had a millionaire family member...and he couldnt really reveal to me how he did it in business, past the history part... ....how he looked at things in a millionaire way..... he just wasnt that introspective or communicative or even interested in the subject...One definitely needs to be interested in the subject. And it take learning. Even someone with an aptitude for color-combinations, for example, needs training to turn that innate ability into fashion design, say. A coach who has been successful in business cannot necessarily impart that information without learning how.


...so i guess my ideal coach would be talky, nice, smart and rich!!!!....
i cant imagine who would even hire a coach...ive heard of life coaches....ikkk...is it like interior decorators?? or big brothers? or is it kind and charity work?
do you get mostly mousy self esteem weak people? or totally high roller wannabees or what? what if you cant fix them?First, coaches don't fix people. Life coaches don't fix peoples' broken lives - that's the job of a psychiatrist. Business coaches don't fix failing businesses - that's the job of a business consultant. A few of the best descriptions of coaching are - Coaches help people play better and win the games of their lives on their own terms - Coaches Inspire an individual or team to achieve a desired result - Coaches unleash the greatness in people.

The head coach of your favorite major sports team doesn't teach his players how to play the game - by the time you are an Indianapolis Colt you know how to play football. What the coach does is beyond teaching and is in the realm of inspiration. A life coach or a business coach is in that same realm for their discipline, they inspire their players to do better. There are techniques to do that and those techniques take some learning. It is a "touchy-feely" type of profession knowing which techniques are likely to be effective and applying them well. By and large, though, it all depends on the player - the client. If the client is willing and wants to be inspired, they will make more progress with a coach than without one. If the player/client is not willing and cooperative, there is nothing a coach can do to make them successful. Usually, though, I find a person who is coached improves, even when they are opposed to the process.

greenoak
09-02-2010, 11:09 AM
ha ha...i could really use one...you shouldnt have told us you do some freebies.... im an antiquer and always want the best price!!!
i dont know why but im usually turned off by the im ok, big self esteem approach.....as in the cartoon, im wonderful ...maybe i cant add but hire me ....

seriously thats a great description...and i bet you have some thankful clients...

Spider
09-02-2010, 11:51 AM
Ann, I may occasionally do a freebie for someone who cannot afford to hire a coach. By and large, though, free coaching doesn't really serve the player/client. There is a tendency to think things are worth what you pay for them - if they are fee, they aren't worth much, so a free client doesn't put in much effort. If a coaching client pays, they are more inclined to not want to waste their money and so do the tasks requested of them. The more they pay, the more incentive they have to work on their success. And the more successful they become, as a result.

AmyAllen
09-21-2010, 05:28 PM
but i know several who should have a site and could afford a site and wont try or did try to find someone and got and paid for really bad work from a self proclaimed expert.

For me this is one of the hardest parts of starting my own business. It feels like it's not enough to be an expert in your field - You have to be an expert in every aspect of business from accounting to taxes to marketing and everything in between. And even if you're inclined to hire the help (like Ann said) it's hard to hire well outside of your own industry.

I used to be a bookkeeper and I remember my boss hiring an accountant who wore a suit and used a lot of accounting-lingo during the interview (none of which my boss understood - that's why she was hiring an "expert" after all), but turns out we were her first client and after working with her, she was slow - way too expensive - and didn't understand some pretty basic accounting functions.

Anyway - As far as choosing a web designer, just a couple of ideas on how to get what you want:

1) Negotiate your contract terms. Try and sign a contract with a flat rate that includes unlimited revisions - so you know you'll be happy with the final product.

2) Ask for work samples and choose someone whose previous work looks similar in design and functionality to what you want for your own web page.

vangogh
09-21-2010, 06:02 PM
Amy I think it's more that you have to become expert at hiring others and making decisions in general. None of us can be an expert at everything, but we can all become experts in our own business and gain a basic level of understanding in other disciplines that are related to our business as well as some we need to run our businesses.

We also need to accept that we will make mistakes. All of us may hire the wrong person or company who does a poor job, but we can minimize the damage of that particular job and learn from it so as to not make the same mistake the next time.

The term self proclaimed expert gets thrown out a lot. The only way someone can be a self-proclamed expert without being a real expert is if you've taken no time at all to learn some basic fundamentals about their business. Anyone can learn the basics of most anything in a week or two, but reading a book or two or spending a few hours at night researching online.


and used a lot of accounting-lingo during the interview

That's not a person you should hire and it's a clear warning sign. If the person is an expert they can figure out how to explain what they do to non-experts. It's possible they may fall into the industry specific lingo at first, because those are the words they use all the time. But you should then question that person and ask for an explanation in your language. If you don't do that it's your fault and not the "experts fault"


Try and sign a contract with a flat rate that includes unlimited revisions

You won't get those terms from any web designer worth hiring, because it's unfair to us. It's like buying a tv and thinking you'll get unlimited replacements for life. Unless of course you're willing to pay an extraordinarily high price to cover all those revisions. Most good web designers want to work with you. We want input from you. But if you tell me something needs to be blue and I give you blue and later you say, I think I'd rather it be red, you should expect to pay for that change.

I agree with you about looking for samples, though sometimes a good designer may not have worked in your industry so I wouldn't automatically turn someone away who hasn't built a site quite like yours. Still it's a good idea to look for one.

The best way to hire a web designer is simply to talk to them. Spend a week trying to gain some basic understanding of what a web designer does and then talk them. Ask them questions. See what questions they ask you. Understand that you'll never know how satisfied you'll be with anyone you hire, whether it's a web designer or someone to sweep your shop. You do the best you can and when you find someone who is good, you hold onto that person.

Harold Mansfield
09-21-2010, 08:44 PM
Anyway - As far as choosing a web designer, just a couple of ideas on how to get what you want:

1) Negotiate your contract terms. Try and sign a contract with a flat rate that includes unlimited revisions - so you know you'll be happy with the final product.


I have to agree that you will never get this from any service personnel. There are terms that you can expect to insure that the job is done to your specifications, but "unlimited revisions' just means that you can run me around for weeks making design changes that have nothing to do with the original agreement, or that may cost more than quoted.
I don't know too many people that will fall for that one.

greenoak
09-22-2010, 08:31 AM
i like your accounting example amy....its easy to have that happen....we cant know everything....on hiring for anything mechanical i would be a sucker, and have no interest in educating myself,,,we should a lways try and check their work somehow , hopefully with someone you know who used the service......your #2 would help in all kinds of situations.........
a path i would like is having the expert show me a couple of real examples, at a couple of different price levels..and i would like to understand what the cheaper level doesnt do....
..eborg so right about the unlimited service part..but you can be messed up from the other end too.... i wouldnt ever want to go on an open ended deal....ive heard too many horror stories there....lately one big person in my field , hired someone to set up a selling website, getting a bid for 1600 and getting a bill for 6500..has the meaning of BID changed???..im sure it was partly her fault.... but i would be a lot stricter on a deal...and know better what i was agreeing to....i think a lot of the businesses out there would let someone like her think she could have what she wanted, a wonderful site that was up to her standards.., for a nice price, when they know better....and then she still wants it and oks more work...she cant ask all the right questions..i like a guy who would say...now you know i cant do x for that price......that attitude could be the start of a nice long relationship imho...

billbenson
09-22-2010, 08:56 AM
Anyway - As far as choosing a web designer, just a couple of ideas on how to get what you want:

1) Negotiate your contract terms. Try and sign a contract with a flat rate that includes unlimited revisions - so you know you'll be happy with the final product.

2) Ask for work samples and choose someone whose previous work looks similar in design and functionality to what you want for your own web page.

Ya, this is a little silly:

1. If you try for that kind of product the web designer you will end up with a lousy web site. Someone good won't work like that.

2. Samples are fine and can help you see if they know certain aspects of design; but looking for the functionality you want may not be a design they have done. That doesn't mean they can't do it.

There are so many things you need to look for in a web designer such as platforms they use (many today use wordpress for example), to design that has SEO built in from the beginning that are far more important.

Harold Mansfield
09-22-2010, 09:58 AM
i like your accounting example amy....its easy to have that happen....we cant know everything....on hiring for anything mechanical i would be a sucker, and have no interest in educating myself,,,we should a lways try and check their work somehow , hopefully with someone you know who used the service......your #2 would help in all kinds of situations.........
a path i would like is having the expert show me a couple of real examples, at a couple of different price levels..and i would like to understand what the cheaper level doesnt do....
..eborg so right about the unlimited service part..but you can be messed up from the other end too.... i wouldnt ever want to go on an open ended deal....ive heard too many horror stories there....lately one big person in my field , hired someone to set up a selling website, getting a bid for 1600 and getting a bill for 6500..has the meaning of BID changed???..im sure it was partly her fault.... but i would be a lot stricter on a deal...and know better what i was agreeing to....i think a lot of the businesses out there would let someone like her think she could have what she wanted, a wonderful site that was up to her standards.., for a nice price, when they know better....and then she still wants it and oks more work...she cant ask all the right questions..i like a guy who would say...now you know i cant do x for that price......that attitude could be the start of a nice long relationship imho...

A big part of that problem is people not knowing what they want. I don't expect potential clients to know as much as I do, but I do expect them to know if they want to sell products on their
website or not, BEFORE, I give a quote.

In my experience, that is where the discrepancies come into play. I can ask 1000 "do you want this?" questions and still never hit on the one that they think they want and want to add later after you are in full swing.

You just have to do your homework and know what you want before you start asking for quotes.Most people can at least show an example of design and function and you can narrow in on things from there.
It's really not hard if you just have a dialogue with your web person, but they can't read your mind...there are 1000's of possibilities.

vangogh
09-22-2010, 11:30 AM
I completely agree with Harold. I never expect a client to understand the technical details of how a website will be built, but I do expect them to know what they want their website to do, why they want one, how they expect it to be part of their business. Web designers aren't mind readers. We'll do our best to ask you questions to get the information we need, but you do have to answer those questions. If I ask someone to share some details about their business and the goals they have for their business and how they see a website fitting into those goals I do think that person should be able to answer.

Just a guess, but I would think what happened with your friend is she asked for a bid and received one based on certain requirements and then as the site was developed she continued to change the requirements. A simple example might be asking for a bid on a 5 page website and then continuing to add more pages until the site became 100 pages. I would hope people could realize that a 5 page site and a 100 page site are not the same thing and the latter is going to cost more than the former.

If you call a car dealership and ask for a estimated price on a volkswagen and then when you go in to buy you decide you want a mercedes the price isn't going to be the same as the original estimate.

Now a reputable web designer shouldn't let the bill go $1600 to $6500 without letting the client know in advance. When I work with clients and give a bid that's what the final price is going to be. If I'm not completely sure what something will cost I'll offer a price range. If a client requests changes or new work during the project I let them know how much those changes or new work will cost in advance. Most any reputable designer will do the same.


we cant know everything....on hiring for anything mechanical i would be a sucker, and have no interest in educating myself

You're right. You can't know everything. No one can. But if you aren't willing to educate yourself you can't pass the blame to the person you hired for not getting what you want. Yes that other person could probably have done a better job communicating with you, but ultimately the responsibility for who you hire is yours and yours alone. You don't have to become an expert in their field, but you do need to find a way to be able to make an informed decision about who to hire.

Or you work with someone who is willing to learn those things and trust that person to do the hiring for that particular job. Or just find people who do know about the subject and ask them.

For example we have a several web designers here all of whom would be willing to help you understand how to hire a web designer. In the 5 or so years I've been posting here and at the old forum I can't remember many (if any) threads by anyone asking us for help before hiring a designer. Why is that? We could all help you find someone or recognize the warning signs of a bad designer, yet we're never asked. Again why is that?

greenoak
09-22-2010, 05:58 PM
i agree with harold too...
well, im not looking for a web designer, thats why i havent asked forhelp on it......to me i think im doing fine the way we are doing it now.....im just here for business talk.... .but ive sure heard of mostly sad stories about friends trying to find one..
..i hear you vg...and i could add, here i am, a going brick and mortar store, maybe in someones target pool, i know tons of retailers, , and i hardly ever get asked on here how you could provide better service to us, or what we want..or whats popular with us...
..vg.i have asked you for help before hiring a designer,, ..you generously gave me a lot of info when i did buy a working site from avalon rose...remember? you were my expert and allayed my fears that it wouldnt do what i thought it would do....i did a lot of research on that....and think i got something very good and what i wanted....

now im not looking,maybe i shold be...lol... but if i were looking ....what i would do is say...i want a site like THIS.... and show the designer a site i liked and that did what i wanted it to do...i would be exact and knowledgeable on my desires.......but for me to learn much more about the guts of it...i wouldnt do it...i would already know what i would want the site to do...i go thru this a lot with our computer people whether about the site, marketing material, flyers ads, etc etc.......and sometimes they just have to say...thats way more effort than we want....its too hard...its not possible etc etc....then i have to go a different way...
i dont have to know how to do it to know what i want to do..
i want a dry basement but dont bore me with info on french drains....
we built a big new house and had such a great guy...we only had one small change......and no problems..he kept his bid and we didnt change things.... .he was so clear on things..like you have x for carpet...then if we went over we knew that it would cost more...he would have had fits if we had changed tons of stuff in the middle, or added another story.......that wasnt how we did it.... of course that would cause all kinds of problems....and im sure you get that in designing for people.... my builder was firm and clear about things...and had super high standards and reputation...of course he was a little cranky and quite the perfectionist.... bad in a dh good in a contractor!!
i sure dont think its always the customers fault when computer work goes bad....

vangogh
09-22-2010, 06:33 PM
Ann I wasn't specifically referring to you above. Sorry if I didn't make that clear. It was more of a general observation. I know you've asked for help and taken advantage of the resources provided for you.


but for me to learn much more about the guts of it

I agree you don't need to learn any of that and it's not what I'm suggesting. If you're hiring a web designer you're responsibility is in the hiring, not the technical details. The basics I'm suggesting to learn are what's the point of design in the first place. Understand your reasons for hiring a web designer in the first place. If in taking to someone all they talk about is technical details, without attempting to explain it in a non-technical way that person isn't the one you should hire. If you still hire them though you need to take the responsibility for that decision.


i want a site like THIS.... and show the designer a site i liked and that did what i wanted it to do...i would be exact and knowledgeable on my desires

That's exactly what you should do.


we built a big new house and had such a great guy...we only had one small change......and no problems

The key is "one small change" and later when you mention you didn't change things in the middle of the work. Again that's exactly how it should be. You're right it happens to us as designers all the time, only more often than not the change is much bigger that the client thinks and they change it after we've already done the work. I realize a lot of times it's not going to be obvious to the client that the change requires as much work as it does, because they don't see the code behind the page, but in that case they have to trust in the person who's developing that code.

It's why you should always talk to the person you hire and have a little back and forth before hiring that person. Build trust between you both and build a relationship. There are going to be points where you each have to trust each other.


i sure dont think its always the customers fault when computer work goes bad

I don't either, but I don't think it's all the designer's fault when the work goes bad and that's how the thread was coming across to me. I think both client and web designer have to take responsibility for their part in the relationship. Someones one or the other is more at fault, but most of the time it's some of both and often it's a lack of communication between the two.

Harold Mansfield
09-22-2010, 10:23 PM
It's definitely not the customers fault all of the time. Most of my work this entire summer has been fixing other people's work. I hate that some service providers are crappy, but it's kept the bills paid.
Like I said, open line of communication is the key. Examples and references aren't a bad idea either.

I have found that a lot of people don't know what they can get, or how far things have come since they had their first website done with Dreamweaver or Front Page.
It's good to ask questions, or else you won't know.
Comparisons to websites that you have seen and like is a good place to start if you are out of the loop because then you can get a grasp on the differences between a $600 website and a $6k website and why.

Local Trifecta
09-22-2010, 10:53 PM
You know whats funny is its not just "facebook" pages ... I see a LOT of businesses in the Google Maps that just have a profile page ... no website as well. I have to agree with everyone else though ... you do need a website as the focal point of your internet marketing initiatives. A facebook page is fantastic for reputation management and social media integration but arent stand alone solutions.

At least this is the case until facebook becomes more SEO friendly and can function more like a website should ... who knows the day may come!

vangogh
09-24-2010, 12:52 AM
True. Facebook is gaining so much attention now that people are flocking to it, but you're right. I've seen the same thing with people having a listing i Google local yet no site. A website really needs to be the central place around which you market online. All the other sites are satellites or outposts. Those other places have great value and I would never suggest not using them. It's just they shouldn't be the focal point.

Biz_Finder
11-01-2010, 11:31 AM
Well I agree with Vangough that a website comes first - but I can't quite bring myself to be shocked that a restaurant might forgo a website in favor of a fan page. A good non-franchise restaurant doesn't need a website imo. The traffic is local and word of mouth and local ads will do fine. We sometimes forget that the pyramids were actually built without google and they had repeat traffic for millenia :-)

vangogh
11-01-2010, 12:08 PM
Why wouldn't a local restaurant need a website? I agree the traffic is local and word of mouth and local ads are going to be important. But I don't think a Facebook page could do more than having a website. There's nothing the restaurant could do on Facebook that it couldn't do on its own site. Given we're likely talking about a small website so it wouldn't even cost that much. The site though, could offer more information than any ad could and even with word of mouth people might still want to know more information that what a friend tells them. And it could provide more information than it could on Facebook.

billbenson
11-01-2010, 08:50 PM
If I'm new to the area; if I want to try that restaurant that my friend told me about but I forgot the name; if I want to try something different but am not sure and want ideas; the absolute first place I would go is Google. The last place I would go is Facebook. I want to see the menu, daily specials, ambiance. All of the things a web site can do for you.

Harold Mansfield
11-01-2010, 09:11 PM
Facebook is the last place I would look for a restaurant or any new business. And if I'm searching by location, menu and other things, I'm going to go with who is visible. Facebook is a tool. It's icing on the cake. It can't take the place of the cake and I argue that if a simple website with hours of operation, contact info and menu is not in the budget, then you shouldn't be in business.

Spider
11-01-2010, 09:37 PM
Whatever happened to driving down the road and parking the car and walking a few blocks in the warm night air taking in the sights and sounds and surprising yourself and your date with whatever this or that restaurant has to offer.

The internet is killing romance, if nothing else

ADV007
11-01-2010, 11:47 PM
Hi all,

I know I'm new here but just thought I'd chime in with my thoughts on the whole Website VS Facebook debacle...

In my experience, having a website is by far more efficient for a business to utilize. Especially now with technology (i.e. the internet, Google, BING, Yahoo!) making it easier more than ever for consumers to "lazily" make a purchasing decision. Websites are literally now "showroom floors" for businesses and if you're not on the web it seems as if you simply don't exist. Being able to create an environment for your potential customers through your website is crucial and it is important that you're utilizing your website as the "destination" for your consumers.

Furthermore, it is important to have a strong marketing mix with Facebook being one marketing avenue that delivers customers. Also, Facebook advertising is much cheaper (depending on your industry) than the "big name search engines". Also, it let's you target your demographic through their campaign set-up page. Definitely a must-have in your marketing mix.

If you're interested in this I suggest visiting this page which will show you everything you need to know about creating ads: Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/adsmarketing/index.php?sk=home)

Another important thing about being on Facebook is that it helps your SEO rankings, which is a benefit for your website. If you're not ready to pay for traffic on Facebook definitely set up a fan page because it's free!

But definitely utilize both. If you can't commit to the price of a website right now then I suggest to get on "The Book" and getting your business out there!

Hope this helps! Best Wishes!

vangogh
11-02-2010, 12:05 AM
Welcome to the forum ADV007. I agree with you as you can probably guess. Ultimately you want both a website and also a presence on other sites. I won't say Facebook has to be one of those other sites though. It depends where your customers spend their time and while a lot of people certainly spend their time at Facebook lately, I'm sure we can find groups of people who aren't there as well. In fact most of the world still doesn't have an account.

I think if you have to pick one or the other though you really have to go with a website. I hear people talking about the expense of a website, but the reality is you can have a website up for under $100 and in a matter of an hour or two. And pretty much anyone can do that. You don't have to hire someone to set it up. It's probably not going to be the most effective website in existence, but it will be your site and it will be online.

Then by all means go out and set up a Facebook page and join any other social site you'd like. However I wouldn't start putting all your marketing into social sites without a site of your own.

greenoak
11-02-2010, 01:02 AM
i think if you sell to women you would really want to be on facebook...if selling to older guys, no way....they think its silly....in my small world anyway...
.to me its still web first then facebook.... and both are great...
the thing is , they are already on facebook and if they want to check up on a resturant they might just put the name in the fb search....also i see facebook replacing lots of email....its truly changing everything...imho...its totally exploding in my target audience...women 35 to 65...

AmyAllen
11-09-2010, 01:20 AM
The internet is killing romance, if nothing else

It's true, Spider! We negotiate the world with such exacting precision these days! People don't leave anything to chance! We Google exact directions with street view so we never take a wrong turn - Read customer reviews, menus, weather reports and news - all before we ever leave the house. There are no surprises left!

Don't get me wrong. I love the web. Hell - I'm a web designer. But even I wish we could pull the plug every now and then and get back to a world with a few more things left to chance.

As far as the OP: I don't think Facebook and Websites should be directly compared. A website is your storefront. Facebook is more like a big networking party. People should definitely use the crap out of Facebook while its hot- but eventually Facebook will be out, and you'll want to have a website.

Google is the first place people go to find you. In 2010, if I am looking up a store and don't find a website or find a website that looks extremely outdated - I assume that the store has either a) Closed up shop or b) Is terribly out of touch. Either way - They're not getting my business. If you can only have one - Go with the website so that when people Google you - they don't come up empty.

vangogh
11-09-2010, 12:06 PM
Some of romance is the mystery. Often as you know more about something the romance goes away. I've always been a big reader and movie watcher. I like stories. Years ago I began teaching myself the craft of writing stories as novels of screenplays. I don't regret it at all, but for a time it was hard for me to watch a movie or read a story without seeing the craft. I'd watch a movie and realize that a character entered solely to set up a plot point and things like that. It took away a lot of the mystery and romance for me and for a time I didn't enjoy stories the way I had.

It's how if you know how a magic trick is down the magic is gone.

The web is similar in that it provides so much easy access to so much information. It fills our knowledge gaps and explains the mystery. It makes it easier to understand how the magic trick was done.

mmartin1985
11-27-2012, 10:26 AM
I would say a website and local listings on Google Places, Yelp, Bing, Yahoo, etc. are much more important. Facebook is something you should go after only if you've established an online presence first. If you like the timeliness of Facebook post, you should add a blog to your site and be posting there daily instead.

Pack-Secure
11-27-2012, 05:44 PM
I would suggest both. First, as Vangogh suggested a website. Websites give you more freedom to be expressive. Websites also give you more opportunity to be more organized. Facebook is in a sense an extension of your website and a way to send out regular messages to your customers.

Wozcreative
11-28-2012, 09:24 PM
Businesses should be thinking mobile first, that's where everything is headed. Facebook is fine if you have a strong landing page. If your business is dynamic, Facebook will allow you to move freely. You should have a domain for it though and link directly.

Ronald Dod
11-29-2012, 10:56 AM
Having just a facebook page is 2009 thinking. If you just have Facebook it makes you look small.

Wozcreative
11-29-2012, 12:06 PM
Facebook is better if you don't have the capitol to invest in a well designed website. You look smaller if you come up with really badly designed site. Atleast with the facebook version you will have a mobile ready site in no time.

vangogh
11-30-2012, 07:04 PM
Yeah, but there are so many options now for low cost sites that also work well on mobile devices. Themes for WordPress or signing up for a service like Squarespace. It doesn't have to cost a lot to get a professional looking site up. The problem with only choosing Facebook is you give them control over your business. Facebook is going to make decisions based on what's good for them, not what's good for you. If you rely 100% on Facebook, you could easily wake up one morning to discover you no longer have a business.

Wozcreative
11-30-2012, 11:24 PM
I agree, but the problem is that small businesses don't know they have other options for websites. They usually have to invest some money for a designer to put something together.

heart1234
12-01-2012, 08:59 PM
I think there are so many ways businesses are promoting themselves today and many of them work even though it may not always be the norm.

The question I would be interested in knowing is if this restaurant is successful. If it is, then even with this facebook page, it is obviously not hurting them.

I agree that if your first impression thinks that it looks bad on them, this may be other's views as well but is it really affecting their business? My thoughts are that businesses should do both but keep their website and facebook page reflecting the image of their business.

vangogh
12-02-2012, 12:40 PM
but the problem is that small businesses don't know they have other options for websites.

I don't buy that as an excuse though. When I started my business I wasn't aware of what my options were for a lot of things. I didn't know what kind of business entity to form or how I should handle accounting. I wasn't aware of how to go about marketing my business or what options were available to me for collecting money. But I found out. And I continue to learn about more and better options all the time. To me that's a big part of what it means to own your business.

You don't have to hire anyone to learn this stuff. A couple of nights spent searching and you can find out a lot of things. You're not going to become an expert with a few days of searching, but you will find many options from which to choose. Finding options for a website is no different. If you spend that time searching you're going to eventually find threads like this one or the many other threads we have here that recommend options like WordPress of Squarespace or any of the other options we've mentioned at times.

I do think the best options is to have something custom built for your business and I agree and understand that's going to cost money that many just starting may not have. However there are many options for getting a low cost website when you're starting out and those options aren't hard to find. They're even advertised on tv, radio, and in magazines.

Wozcreative
12-02-2012, 12:56 PM
I totally agree with everything you've said.. when you need something for your business you need to fully research to find the best investment on your money for these things. Unfortunately I find too many businesses who don't find that investing the time in finding out enough information on how to tackle their website and just go the easy route... Totally the wrong way to go for any part of a business. But enough people also do go the "easy" way or don't know the right things to look for, or the questions to ask... so facebook is fine I think. It just means you're a lazy business, but atleast I can find all the information I need on the site ;)

vangogh
12-04-2012, 12:33 AM
Unfortunately I find too many businesses who don't find that investing the time in finding out enough information on how to tackle their website and just go the easy route.

I agree completely and see the same thing. I get why people go the easy route at times. We all do it. Running a business and life in general can be difficult. Sometimes you need that break to take the easy way. I don't accept it as an excuse for things though. If I take the easy path and it doesn't work, I don't blame the path. I blame myself for making that choice. Then I accept it was the choice I made and I understand the reasons why I made it. I move on and learn from the experience to prevent making the same mistake again.

ozetel
12-04-2012, 05:40 AM
Website comes first but it certainly says a bit about the changing world of online sales and presence doesnt it? I guess the restaurant industry is more related to the social connection and spreading the word through social chat. I know alot of the restaurants I have been to are very often based on the recommendation from somebody else. Perhaps that is a better option for marketing for them rather then trying to rank a website in an obviously extremely competitive industry. Food for thought.

Speaking of which, was the food good? lol

vangogh
12-05-2012, 12:08 PM
it certainly says a bit about the changing world of online sales and presence doesnt it?

The internet in general certainly changes a lot of things, though I think it mostly amplifies things that have always been part of what we do. For example the decision to go with a Facebook page over a website isn't all that different than choosing to have your product(s) on the shelves at Walmart instead of opening your own store. The differences are that it's much less expensive to open and maintain a website than to open and maintain a physical store and it's also easier to put up a page on Facebook than it is to get Walmart to carry your product. The similarity in both is that you're giving complete control of the success of your business to another business. If you only have your products in Walmart and Walmart decides to stop carrying them, you no longer have a business. To a lesser degree Walmart could put your products on a shelf that's not visible or place it next to a more popular product. Facebook can do similar by not making your page as visible as you'd like or running ads for similar products on your page.

Again I'm not suggesting people shouldn't have Facebook pages and use them to promote their business. Just saying you should see it as one marketing channel and not your sole marketing channel or worse the only place your business exists.