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View Full Version : Digital Point owners indicted for cookie stuffing



Harold Mansfield
07-31-2010, 11:07 AM
This has been an ongoing case involving the owners of Digital Point, Shawn Hogan and Ebay. Some recent updates look as if the the Feds are going after them full blast for a multitude of charges.

I can remember when cookie stuffing first reared it's ugly head in the affiliate marketing world.
I knew that there was no way that it was going to fly without somebody being brought up on charges. It had all the makings of interstate wire fraud, among other things.


# Between 2006 and June 2007, Shawn Hogan (Digital Point Solutions) earned approximately $15.5 million in commissions from eBay. Hogan was eBay’s number one affiliate.
# Between 2006 and June 2007, Dunning (Kessler’s Flying Circus) earned approximately $5.3 million in commissions from eBay. Dunning was eBay’s number two affiliate.
# Hogan and Dunning are accused of generating hidden forced clicks on both their own web sites as well as sites not connected with the defendants in order to increase the number of computers storing the eBay affiliate tracking cookie.

You can read the rest here:
http://www.revenews.com/kelliestevens/affiliates-indicted-for-cookie-stuffing/ (http://www.revenews.com/kelliestevens/affiliates-indicted-for-cookie-stuffing/)

nicolebeckett
08-04-2010, 06:54 PM
Wow...had not heard about this! Thanks for sharing! The article is a very interesting read. It seems as if they will not be able to wiggle out of this.

Harold Mansfield
08-04-2010, 07:18 PM
I hope not. That's a lot of greed.
I have a real problem with people who have the talent and the know how to be successful but still do at the detriment of others.

They probably could have made an extra 5 figures a year for years and never raised a red flag...but millions?
They deserved to get caught.

I'm still waiting to see if they somehow infected other people's websites to steal affiliate commission from other webmasters.


generating hidden forced clicks on both their own web sites as well as sites not connected with the defendants

They had access to thousands of websites through that forum..who knows if they screwed over any webmasters on their own forum.

vangogh
08-04-2010, 10:00 PM
Having visited Digital Point, why does this not surprise me? I certainly know Shawn Hogan has the technical skills to do everything described and I don't think he's every been above this sort of thing.

The most interesting part of all this is mentioned in the article. Depending on the outcome of the trial this really shakes up the black hat side of things. I don't think there's anything wrong with black hat methods, but default, but now one tactic at least will be seen as illegal and carrying a very stiff penalty. 20 years behind bars is quite a lot of cookie stuffing. Seems a little high to me and I wouldn't expect anyone to get that maximum, but still it makes you stop and think.

Harold Mansfield
08-04-2010, 10:10 PM
LOL! Web guys can't do time. Even 5 years would scare them to death and absolutely destroy them.

vangogh
08-04-2010, 10:38 PM
Funny. 5 days might send them over the edge.

Harold Mansfield
08-04-2010, 11:57 PM
Did you see how Joe Francis (Girls Gone Wild) acted when he was thrown in the slammer? He did everything but call for his mommy.

vangogh
08-05-2010, 12:18 AM
No, I didn't see that. Too funny. Everything he does is based on the idea that he's super confident and can talk women into most anything. He couldn't call for his mommy. She's no longer talking to him given his business.

jamestl2
08-05-2010, 11:57 AM
It's amazing to me what some people (who are already successful) will attempt to do for just a bit more.

Is money really that important to them? Why risk your reputation to earn a few quick extra bucks?

cbscreative
08-05-2010, 01:07 PM
Having visited Digital Point, why does this not surprise me? I certainly know Shawn Hogan has the technical skills to do everything described and I don't think he's every been above this sort of thing.

The most interesting part of all this is mentioned in the article. Depending on the outcome of the trial this really shakes up the black hat side of things. I don't think there's anything wrong with black hat methods, but default, but now one tactic at least will be seen as illegal and carrying a very stiff penalty. 20 years behind bars is quite a lot of cookie stuffing. Seems a little high to me and I wouldn't expect anyone to get that maximum, but still it makes you stop and think.

You and I are free to disagree, but when I hear black hat, it always pushes the envelope of ethics in my view. Shrewdness is one thing, even commendable, but anything that redefines honesty is dishonest. Anything gained from dishonesty, whether you choose to call it black hat or something else, will eventually turn to gravel in your mouth. It's just a matter of time. The only problem is, the return does not always come labeled so the recipient can see the connection.

In this case, I think black hat tames down what it really is...fraud. Doing time for fraud does not seem unreasonable at all. If this is a wake up call, so be it. Maybe I'm a hard case because things that would have clearly been theft when I was younger have been redefined so it's not theft any more. Just because eBay is filthy rich does not mean taking something from them that doesn't belong to you is not stealing.

Business Attorney
08-05-2010, 09:02 PM
Maybe I'm a hard case because things that would have clearly been theft when I was younger have been redefined so it's not theft any more. Just because eBay is filthy rich does not mean taking something from them that doesn't belong to you is not stealing.

If you're a hard case, I hope there are more like you. To call defrauding an affiliate program "black hat" rather than theft makes it seem like a game. Fooling the search engines to raise your website in the SERPS might be passed off by some as simply cheating at "the game." Cookie stuffing, click fraud and other tactics that directly cheat affiliate programs or advertisers are no different than hacking their bank accounts and the people who do it should suffer the same consequences.

Harold Mansfield
08-05-2010, 09:28 PM
They weren't just defrauding eBay, it looks as if they were hijacking commissions from other webmasters. If , as the complaint say's, they were guilty of stuffing cookies on sites that they both owned, and didn't own...that means they were ripping off other people as well.
Not that it's any more or less criminal, but it certainly is despicable.

vangogh
08-05-2010, 11:55 PM
Shrewdness is one thing, even commendable, but anything that redefines honesty is dishonest.

The thing is black hat doesn't redefine honesty. The term is mainly used in regards to seo and all it means is not sticking within the guidelines of the search engine. But the search engines don't define law, they don't define honesty, they don't define morals. Much of what's in search engine guidelines is what they want you to do to make their lives easier. They often don't adhere to their own guidelines.

The view you're holding about black hat isn't the reality of black hat. It's how black hats have been portrayed, but it's not necessarily true. Some black hats are immoral, dishonest, and even criminal. So are some white hats. Even here what's happening is more than black hat. It's fraud. Assuming this is all true they defrauded eBay and other affiliates.

cbscreative
08-06-2010, 11:42 AM
I agree, vangogh, but I see the term black hat applied to a broad range of things. Even this case uses the term black hat when fraud is clearly the reason the feds have stepped in. It's probably just perception, but I think the term black hat means bad guy just like it originally did in early westerns where the term originated. Based on some of your posts, your perception seems to be that black hat just means anything that doesn't follow search engine guidelines. Since black hat doesn't mean sinister to everyone, using it in place of fraud just blurs the lines. Like David said, it can turn criminal activity into a game, and I agree.

vangogh
08-06-2010, 05:18 PM
Oh definitely. The term is applied beyond SEO. The thing is black hat (the seo variety) doesn't mean bad guy. It means something else, but people keeping using it incorrectly. Imagine if we started using the term angel every time someone committed a crime. After awhile people would start thinking anyone who's described as an angel is a horrible person, when the reality is the word was misused over and over again.

In regards to seo all that black hat really means is working outside the guidelines of a search engine. Beyond seo it'll mean different things. Of course the term does stem from old western movies where the good guys wore white hats and the bad guys wore black hats. Maybe it's the way the term is used in seo that's wrong.

It does blur the lines though when black hat is used synonymously with fraud. Most blackhatters (the seo kind) are breaking any laws. Some certainly are, but most are only pushing the envelop in regards to search engines. They do things search engines don't like and probably generate a lot of garbage sites, but neither is a crime. In fact I've seen some automated black hat spam copy that reads better than originally written content from people working within the guidelines.

cbscreative
08-06-2010, 10:42 PM
Maybe it's the way the term is used in seo that's wrong.

That may very well be one root of the problem.

vangogh
08-09-2010, 10:49 AM
Possibly. In general we live in an age where people take words and use them incorrectly which starts to change their meaning. As an example take the word hacker, which now has similar connotations as black hat. Hackers are simply inquisitive people who look to solve problems in unique and creative ways. The original hackers were a group of model train enthusiasts who were looking for spare parts they could use. They received some old phone company equipment and set out to figure out how to make it work with their trains.

Somewhere over time the media began branding anyone who broke into a computer network to commit some crime, a hacker. Granted some in the hacking community were doing that, but it's not at all what a hacker is. Some attempted to add the term cracker for the criminal aspect, but it hasn't really stuck.