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Four94
07-21-2010, 12:02 PM
We are looking for Feedback with the Top 7 Logos we are going to select from.

Any feedback you have would be great.

Please participate in the discussion at Evolution of a Brand ? The 99Designs Experience « Four94 (http://four94.wordpress.com/2010/07/19/evolution-of-a-brand-%E2%80%93-the-99designs-experience/)

Thanks,
Mark Richardson

cbscreative
07-21-2010, 12:22 PM
I'm afraid I have to agree with Brad in your comments section. None of the logos really stand out. Sorry to add sour milk to your Cheerios, but that's just the honest opinion of a design snob.

Four94
07-21-2010, 12:26 PM
I understand that most designers don't take well to sites like 99Design and the work that is produced from them.

Thanks for your honest feedback.

Mark

cbscreative
07-21-2010, 12:50 PM
No problem, Mark. I'm personally fine with those sites, though I can't claim to be familiar with 99Design specifically. Sources like Logoworks are the brunt of design industry jokes (even fraud charges and blatant cases of plagiarism). If someone with no design skill is operating a hobby type biz and doesn't need a real logo, then those services probably work fine. What is sad though is when a "real" business gets taken in by the kind of thinking that drives their business model.

One of the cardinal rules of marketing is uniqueness and differentiation. If the logo does not apply this rule, it undermines what you're trying to accomplish.

I hope my comments don't over play the role of a logo though. A logo will not make or break a business. It is an identity symbol only. It is a visual representation that is supposed to instantly identify your business to your market. Although it plays a small role, it's still an important one. And considering the longevity of a good logo design (making it one of the most cost effective aspects of your business), I firmly believe that these companies who only want you to think about price and rush you through the process are doing you a disservice.

Four94
07-21-2010, 12:55 PM
I see your point of view.

If you read a book called "Rework" at REWORK: The new business book from 37signals. (http://www.37signals.com/rework)

Also if you watch the videos at

YouTube - Startup2Startup: Lean Startups (Part 1).wmv (http://il.youtube.com/watch?v=KDr4SMT-eok&feature=related) (Part 1)
YouTube - Startup2Startup: Lean Startups (Part 2) (http://il.youtube.com/watch?v=m7ck4U8q3Y8&feature=related) (Part 2)
YouTube - Startup2Startup: Lean Startups (Part 3).wmv (http://il.youtube.com/watch?v=KtfYbFRkHT0&feature=related) (Part 3)

You will know the point of view that me and my partners take when it comes to starting a new venture.

Thanks,
Mark

lav
07-21-2010, 09:12 PM
Quoted from your comments-

so we lack the necessary funds to hire a graphic designer for $65-$85 an hour. The number of revisions typically required for a project like this can easily push the cost of a project into $2k-$5k range, which for us is not feasible.Wow I mustnt be charging enough lol.

For the type of designs you have on your page I wouldnt think a good designer who can take a brief properly needing to charge 2k-5k for that level of work (i wouldnt)

Number 5 is my favourite although the colours may restrict its use in some places and the "four" doesnt align quite right as is. I would use the font though from number 4 with a grey or black (which could be white on dark backgrounds) colour and align it to the bottom of the "box" in number 5 (if that makes sense).

Look forward to seeing your site revamped to incorporate your new logo, of course none of the logos will go with your current site design (but you knew that ;) )

Blessed
07-21-2010, 09:17 PM
I'm going to agree with Steve -
point 1 - none of the logos really "do" anything for me. Of all of them I think #5 is probably the most "unique" I've never talked to you just read a couple posts here and scanned your blog post - but I would guess that what you like about the first logo is simply the "94" in the square turned on it's corner. In fact it took me a 2nd look to realize that the rest of that logo went with the logo - I'm sure part of that is the presentation of the logos in the blog posts.
point 2 - "One of the cardinal rules of marketing is uniqueness and differentiation. If the logo does not apply this rule, it undermines what you're trying to accomplish." Exactly - but as Steve also said - a logo doesn't make or break your business, it's simply an identity symbol BUT - as an identity symbol it's important to get something that will stand the test of time - you don't want to establish your image, get some business rolling in and then, 2 years after your start-up go through a massive rebranding process simply to do away with a poor logo that doesn't accurately represent what you do.
point 3 - my main beef with sites like 99Design (whose site I haven't visited by the way... a bit busy right now :D ) anyway... my problem with those sites is you don't know what exactly you will be given as a logo - are you going to get a file that will work no matter what you are going to do with it or is it something that someone will have to recreate later in order to make it a high enough quality to print nicely on your business cards and letterhead?
point 4 - I had a client when I was at the print shop whose logo cost a million dollars, so I realize that these things can cost way too much money, but I think it's quite possible you could have found a local designer or even one of us - who could probably design a logo for far less than the $5k you predict in your blog post. Especially if you had an idea of what you wanted/liked/etc... to start with.

Anyway - welcome to the forum! Hope you take my criticism in the spirit it's given - from one business person to another! And I will admit that I too am a design snob.

Four94
07-22-2010, 09:26 AM
I'm going to agree with Steve -
point 1 - none of the logos really "do" anything for me. Of all of them I think #5 is probably the most "unique" I've never talked to you just read a couple posts here and scanned your blog post - but I would guess that what you like about the first logo is simply the "94" in the square turned on it's corner. In fact it took me a 2nd look to realize that the rest of that logo went with the logo - I'm sure part of that is the presentation of the logos in the blog posts.
point 2 - "One of the cardinal rules of marketing is uniqueness and differentiation. If the logo does not apply this rule, it undermines what you're trying to accomplish." Exactly - but as Steve also said - a logo doesn't make or break your business, it's simply an identity symbol BUT - as an identity symbol it's important to get something that will stand the test of time - you don't want to establish your image, get some business rolling in and then, 2 years after your start-up go through a massive rebranding process simply to do away with a poor logo that doesn't accurately represent what you do.
point 3 - my main beef with sites like 99Design (whose site I haven't visited by the way... a bit busy right now :D ) anyway... my problem with those sites is you don't know what exactly you will be given as a logo - are you going to get a file that will work no matter what you are going to do with it or is it something that someone will have to recreate later in order to make it a high enough quality to print nicely on your business cards and letterhead?
point 4 - I had a client when I was at the print shop whose logo cost a million dollars, so I realize that these things can cost way too much money, but I think it's quite possible you could have found a local designer or even one of us - who could probably design a logo for far less than the $5k you predict in your blog post. Especially if you had an idea of what you wanted/liked/etc... to start with.

Anyway - welcome to the forum! Hope you take my criticism in the spirit it's given - from one business person to another! And I will admit that I too am a design snob.

Thanks for your honest feedback.

To be honest here, it seems as the most backlash in our approach has came from the "design" and "creative" community.

This is something that we all expected.

As a software developer. In my profession, the whole "outsource to India" idea gets under our skin as well.

But as I wrote earlier.

I strongly recommend watching the videos linked to above.

This is a mirror of our line of thinking for using a site like 99Designs.

Once again, thank you for your feedback.

Blessed
07-22-2010, 10:26 AM
Hi Mark -

You're welcome for the feedback. I realize that you expected "backlash" from the "design and creative" community, I expected you to brush off most of what I said as soon as you saw that I was a member of that community. But a couple of things are really important so...

I do understand "why" you are using a site like 99Designs. And I'm not arguing against the merit of that approach - those sites have their place. But, as someone who knows the business of branding I'm going to play devil's advocate here for a minute -

After you get the logo design then what?
What type of file are you going to be given at the end of the design process?
Who is going to design your business cards, letterhead, marketing materials, signage?

The second question gets really technical to answer - but basically there are several programs out there to use to create "logos" a few of them create logos that are easily useable in many different scenarios the majority of the "do-it-yourself" programs simply create logos that have to be re-created later, by someone who knows what they are doing in order to be used for printed products. You need to make sure you are getting a vector logo, an .eps or .ai file is preferable although some .psd files can work as well - it just depends on the design and with .psd files you have to be concerned about resolution - dpi and etc... with the vector files something that looks good on a business card will also enlarge to look good on a 4'x6' banner you have made for a trade show.

To answer the last question I see from 99Designs site that you can simply use them to continue designing your projects - the only thing you need to consider before you do that is that you want all of your pieces to compliment each other. You are more likely to get that if you pick a single designer and simply use them. Additionally - you need to figure out who your market is and how you will be marketing to them so that you know what kind of marketing materials you need. Yes, a lot of your marketing can be done online without having anything printed but... especially if you are focusing on your local market you need printed materials too - they should compliment your online presence and each other. When someone looks at a brochure about your services, reads a letter you have printed on your letterhead and and then visits your website they should know that all the things belong to the same company.

Four94
07-22-2010, 11:19 AM
Hi Mark -

You're welcome for the feedback. I realize that you expected "backlash" from the "design and creative" community, I expected you to brush off most of what I said as soon as you saw that I was a member of that community. But a couple of things are really important so...

I do understand "why" you are using a site like 99Designs. And I'm not arguing against the merit of that approach - those sites have their place. But, as someone who knows the business of branding I'm going to play devil's advocate here for a minute -

After you get the logo design then what?
What type of file are you going to be given at the end of the design process?
Who is going to design your business cards, letterhead, marketing materials, signage?

The second question gets really technical to answer - but basically there are several programs out there to use to create "logos" a few of them create logos that are easily useable in many different scenarios the majority of the "do-it-yourself" programs simply create logos that have to be re-created later, by someone who knows what they are doing in order to be used for printed products. You need to make sure you are getting a vector logo, an .eps or .ai file is preferable although some .psd files can work as well - it just depends on the design and with .psd files you have to be concerned about resolution - dpi and etc... with the vector files something that looks good on a business card will also enlarge to look good on a 4'x6' banner you have made for a trade show.

To answer the last question I see from 99Designs site that you can simply use them to continue designing your projects - the only thing you need to consider before you do that is that you want all of your pieces to compliment each other. You are more likely to get that if you pick a single designer and simply use them. Additionally - you need to figure out who your market is and how you will be marketing to them so that you know what kind of marketing materials you need. Yes, a lot of your marketing can be done online without having anything printed but... especially if you are focusing on your local market you need printed materials too - they should compliment your online presence and each other. When someone looks at a brochure about your services, reads a letter you have printed on your letterhead and and then visits your website they should know that all the things belong to the same company.

Hi,

Awesome feedback.

This isn't the first time we have gone through this process.

I have worked with a few other start-ups before jumping in two feet on my own.

This is why we used 99Designs.
Because we have experience in working with other start up ventures.

If you check out Didgebridge has pioneered the first ROI-measurable internet video advertising technology (http://www.didgebridge.com) and click on "Our Team"
Scroll down and look for the name Mark Richardson.

You can view my profile there (It needs to be updated).

I am already aligned with marketing guys.

As I said, from what we have learned in he past 99Designs was a easy pick.

Business Attorney
07-22-2010, 02:46 PM
I can understand perfectly why 4 guys who are launching a new untested business would want to avoid spending more than necessary to get a serviceable logo. It is the same reason that some of the start-up companies I work with decide to draft their own users agreements rather than have me prepare one that may be better suited for their business. While it may be more efficient to do it right from the start, things can always be improved on later when more money is available. And if the money never starts rolling in to the business, it didn't really matter that much what their logo or user agreement looked like.

Even though I am not a designer, I'll drop by your site and give you my two cents worth.

Four94
07-22-2010, 04:21 PM
I can understand perfectly why 4 guys who are launching a new untested business would want to avoid spending more than necessary to get a serviceable logo. It is the same reason that some of the start-up companies I work with decide to draft their own users agreements rather than have me prepare one that may be better suited for their business. While it may be more efficient to do it right from the start, things can always be improved on later when more money is available. And if the money never starts rolling in to the business, it didn't really matter that much what their logo or user agreement looked like.

Even though I am not a designer, I'll drop by your site and give you my two cents worth.

Thanks "Business Attorney".

You are 100% correct.

In the pass, I have seen some of the founders of other ventures spend 1000's of dollars on things like pattens, logos and marketing materials before they tested their business model.

Our Blog was designed to share our experiences so someone else could get up and running their business without spending the bank on something that is untested.

Our Blog is also designed to get anyone in the business community to offer us feedback on what we are doing.

Thanks for your post.

Mark

Harold Mansfield
07-29-2010, 02:26 PM
Thanks "Business Attorney".

You are 100% correct.

In the pass, I have seen some of the founders of other ventures spend 1000's of dollars on things like pattens, logos and marketing materials before they tested their business model.

Our Blog was designed to share our experiences so someone else could get up and running their business without spending the bank on something that is untested.

Our Blog is also designed to get anyone in the business community to offer us feedback on what we are doing.

Thanks for your post.

Mark

I have to chime in here and for the record I am not a design snob. To me a logo is very far down the line on what you need to worry about. What your logo looks like is not going to make or break the overall impression of your company.

If I were visiting your blog for the first time, my first question would be why are you running a company blog on a free hosted blog site? Nothing against Wordpress.com..it's a great platform, but running a business site on it does not exactly inspire credibility, especially given how cheap it is to host your own blog..even purchase a premium design given that there is more than one person in your group...we are really talking peanuts when divided among the partners.

It seems that you are putting more than one cart before the horse, worrying more about style over substance.
I know this wasn't your question, or what you were looking for feedback on, but it's hard for me to ignore the obvious when the issue isn't the color of the car, its the fact that there is no engine in it.

The old saying "lipstick on a pig" applies. Why so much concern over dressing up something that technically, isn't actually yours, over putting together something that shows your professionalism and knowledge on the web?

I see this:

but for those of you who are new to SaaS, it just basically means Four94 will host and maintain all the software from our servers, which enables businesses to cut IT costs.
and wonder "why should I believe any of this or trust it, if they aren't even hosting their own website?"

Don't you think others will notice the same thing? To me a logo is the last thing on the plate once all of the other presentation, marketing, and technical issues have been decided on. Not the first thing because initially for a start up, it is the least important , especially if you don't have anything else going.

I don't care how sweet looking your logo is, it's not going to overcome the fact that your website is on a free network.That stands out like a sore thumb.

Rzacny
07-29-2010, 03:36 PM
I sent a comment ot your blog, Mark. Good luck in all you do!

Four94
07-29-2010, 05:02 PM
I have to chime in here and for the record I am not a design snob. To me a logo is very far down the line on what you need to worry about. What your logo looks like is not going to make or break the overall impression of your company.

If I were visiting your blog for the first time, my first question would be why are you running a company blog on a free hosted blog site? Nothing against Wordpress.com..it's a great platform, but running a business site on it does not exactly inspire credibility, especially given how cheap it is to host your own blog..even purchase a premium design given that there is more than one person in your group...we are really talking peanuts when divided among the partners.

It seems that you are putting more than one cart before the horse, worrying more about style over substance.
I know this wasn't your question, or what you were looking for feedback on, but it's hard for me to ignore the obvious when the issue isn't the color of the car, its the fact that there is no engine in it.

The old saying "lipstick on a pig" applies. Why so much concern over dressing up something that technically, isn't actually yours, over putting together something that shows your professionalism and knowledge on the web?

I see this:

and wonder "why should I believe any of this or trust it, if they aren't even hosting their own website?"

Don't you think others will notice the same thing? To me a logo is the last thing on the plate once all of the other presentation, marketing, and technical issues have been decided on. Not the first thing because initially for a start up, it is the least important , especially if you don't have anything else going.

I don't care how sweet looking your logo is, it's not going to overcome the fact that your website is on a free network.That stands out like a sore thumb.

I will have to respectively disagree with your comments about it being on a free site.

Point 1: We are a new business wanting to grow our business smartly.
We have to spend our budgets carefully.

Point 2: Everyone has a starting point. If you do some research on some of the most successful companies out there. Some of them started with hardly nothing.

Point 3: Getting someone to trust you takes time and patience.
Just because our blog is on a free site like wordpress, doesn't mean it will be there forever. We know the stage of the game we are in.

Point 4: The main goal of our Blog is to SHARE our PROCESS with other business people who might find the INFORMATION useful.

I think we are way too early in the stage of our company to worry about if our Blog makes us "LOOK" bigger than we are.

We have to be honest with ourselves and those we interact with.

We as a group all share this point of view.

Thanks for your feedback.

Mark Richardson

Harold Mansfield
07-29-2010, 05:23 PM
I will have to respectively disagree with your comments about it being on a free site.

Point 1: We are a new business wanting to grow our business smartly.
We have to spend our budgets carefully.

Point 2: Everyone has a starting point. If you do some research on some of the most successful companies out there. Some of them started with hardly nothing.

Point 3: Getting someone to trust you takes time and patience.
Just because our blog is on a free site like wordpress, doesn't mean it will be there forever. We know the stage of the game we are in.

Point 4: Our main goal of our Blog is to SHARE our PROCESS with other business people who might find the INFORMATION useful.

I think we are way too early in the stage of our company to worry about if our Blog makes us "LOOK" bigger than we are.

We have to be honest with ourselves and those we interact with.

We as a group all share this point of view.

Thanks for your feedback.

Mark Richardson

Of course it's your business and you have to run it the way you see fit and in a way that will best project your professionalism. I was merely pointing out the clash of ideas and ideals, compared to your presentation.
I wasn't in anyway suggesting that you try and look bigger than you are, just pointing out that it may come across as looking smaller, with limited to no resources than you actually are.

Putting up your own blog is not some great expense. Actually with the technical knowledge that you all seem to posses, it won't cost you much at all.

$11 a year for a domain
$10 a month for hosting
Worpdress is free
..and even if you invest in a premium template, at the most you are looking at another $40-$80.

Hardly the financial hardship between 4 guys (at the most $25 each) and it gives you your own self run, self hosted blog, on your own brand (domain) with matching company email addresses and it opens up other opportunities as well that are immeasurable.

I didn't mean to come off as you are doing something wrong, but if the minimal cost is what keeps you from hosting your own blog, how are potential clients to believe that you have the resources to do business with them?

If the web is how you are looking to attract interest, investors, and clients, then your presentation on the web should be the best that you can make it. I would never suggest that anyone have resources or funds to do grand things, especially at start up, but I don't think $100 (at the most) for a professional looking web presence is the place to shortcut.

Would you invest money in a company where 4 guys couldn't come up with $25 ?

Yes, many companies have started with nothing, but the cute start up days are over. People will at least expect you to do the minimum if you want them to take you seriously.

Just my opinion of course.

Four94
07-29-2010, 05:29 PM
Of course it's your business and you have to run it the way you see fit and in a way that will best project your professionalism. I was merely pointing out the clash of ideas and ideals, compared to your presentation.
I wasn't in anyway suggesting that you try and look bigger than you are, just pointing out that it may come across as looking smaller, with limited to no resources than you actually are.

Putting up your own blog is not some great expense. Actually with the technical knowledge that you all seem to posses, it won't cost you much at all.

$11 a year for a domain
$10 a month for hosting
Worpdress is free
..and even if you invest in a premium template, at the most you are looking at another $40-$80.

Hardly the financial hardship between 4 guys (at the most $25 each) and it gives you your own self run, self hosted blog, on your own brand (domain) with matching company email addresses and it opens up other opportunities as well that are immeasurable.

I didn't mean to come off as you are doing something wrong, but if the minimal cost is what keeps you from hosting your own blog, how are potential clients to believe that you have the resources to do business with them?

I see your point.

As of right now, we just want to share our process of building our company with everyone else.

Thank you for your feedback, but I think at this stage of the game wordpress is ok.

Harold Mansfield
07-30-2010, 10:44 AM
I see your point.

As of right now, we just want to share our process of building our company with everyone else.

Thank you for your feedback, but I think at this stage of the game wordpress is ok.

Of course. You have to do it your way. Suggestions are just that....suggestions.

Dan Furman
07-30-2010, 04:35 PM
Not nuts about any of the logos (I see you chose one, so this is after the fact.). They all seem a bit amateurish, really. Like someone got ahold of Corel Draw and played with fonts and colors.

Personally, I think you could have done better finding a decent designer in the $50-$60 an hour range - the cost would likely have been pretty close to what you ultimately paid. Ok, maaaybe it costs you 4-5 hours time - we're not talking bank-breaking money here.

To comment on the other area of the thread - cost / hiring / paying people / etc... I'm not for sites like that, and I do not think it's a good business practice. Let me tell you why: I assume that whatever you are going to do you will be charging more than the buck-something you were so proud to get people to work for you for. ("We are 2 hours away from having to make our choice and there are currently 182 designs for an average of $1.16 per design!! Not a single designer in the world would be willing to work for that output. Overall, we feel this has been a good experience and investment on our part.)

So essentially, you want stuff done for you cheap - like slave wage cheap. But you are certainly not going to be willing to work as cheap yourself, are you? Why, may I ask? You expect others to.

It's a double standard that has no place in business. You simply don't value the professional efforts of others. My .02 anyway.

Now, I'm not saying you can't start on a shoestring or a budget or hire based on price. But sites like that border on exploitation. But to a certain mindset, exploitation is ok, I suppose. But it doesn't speak volumes for your character as a business (I don't mean this in a personal sense - I'm not saying you have bad character - I just think the "We don't value work done for us enough to pay for people's efforts" is a bad way to go about things.)

Four94
07-30-2010, 04:56 PM
Not nuts about any of the logos (I see you chose one, so this is after the fact.). They all seem a bit amateurish, really. Like someone got ahold of Corel Draw and played with fonts and colors.

Personally, I think you could have done better finding a decent designer in the $50-$60 an hour range - the cost would likely have been pretty close to what you ultimately paid. Ok, maaaybe it costs you 4-5 hours time - we're not talking bank-breaking money here.

To comment on the other area of the thread - cost / hiring / paying people / etc... I'm not for sites like that, and I do not think it's a good business practice. Let me tell you why: I assume that whatever you are going to do you will be charging more than the buck-something you were so proud to get people to work for you for. ("We are 2 hours away from having to make our choice and there are currently 182 designs for an average of $1.16 per design!! Not a single designer in the world would be willing to work for that output. Overall, we feel this has been a good experience and investment on our part.)

So essentially, you want stuff done for you cheap - like slave wage cheap. But you are certainly not going to be willing to work as cheap yourself, are you? Why, may I ask? You expect others to.

It's a double standard that has no place in business. You simply don't value the professional efforts of others. My .02 anyway.

Now, I'm not saying you can't start on a shoestring or a budget or hire based on price. But sites like that border on exploitation. But to a certain mindset, exploitation is ok, I suppose. But it doesn't speak volumes for your character as a business (I don't mean this in a personal sense - I'm not saying you have bad character - I just think the "We don't value work done for us enough to pay for people's efforts" is a bad way to go about things.)

Hi Dan,

Thanks for your honest feedback.

If you watch the videos, you will get a better understanding of our mindset.

Thanks,
Mark Richardson

webcoredesign
08-01-2010, 11:36 AM
I concur with regards to the designs.

They all seem to have been developed with little brainstorming behind them - though the financial incentive is always going to determine how long a designer is willing to brainstorm and ultimately produce a more pleasing result.

99designs is controversial and there's a whole can of worms that could be opened up on spec work. Ignorning that (huge) issue, there's some great designers on board over there, but there's also a fair share of less experienced folk ready to make a quick buck.

Four94
08-02-2010, 09:30 AM
I concur with regards to the designs.

They all seem to have been developed with little brainstorming behind them - though the financial incentive is always going to determine how long a designer is willing to brainstorm and ultimately produce a more pleasing result.

99designs is controversial and there's a whole can of worms that could be opened up on spec work. Ignorning that (huge) issue, there's some great designers on board over there, but there's also a fair share of less experienced folk ready to make a quick buck.

Here is a message I gotten back on LinkedIn about services that are similar to 99Designs.

=============================================
Heather Whaling President at Geben Communication

To: Mark Richardson

Date: July 21, 2010

I haven't used 99Designs, but I have used Crowdspring, which I think is similar. The key is clearly articulating what you're looking for, and on Crowdspring at least, offering feedback. I've used Crowdspring for multiple projects -- everything from a start-up to a multi-million dollar company -- and have always been happy with the results. Good luck!
=============================================

Dan Furman
08-02-2010, 11:36 AM
It sounds to me like you are trying - really hard - to justify this to yourself and others.

Personally, I would never use a service like this, startup or not. To start, let's be honest - the results really weren't that good - you picked the best of an ordinary bunch, and really got less than you paid for. You went to the all you can eat buffet for $14.99 and had a "meh" meal, thinking "I'm saving big money over the $100 restaurant". And yea, you did. But you could have also went to the good downtown diner for $17.99 and had a fabulous meal.

Secondly, I am not comfortable with people working for me for free, whether they do so willingly or not. I'm a professional who feels good work has value. I do not mind - at all - paying someone for good work. There are all kinds of price points out there, for all kinds of budgets, that don't rely on people working for free. There are designers that will charge 5k, and there are designers that will charge $50 an hour and get you a nice logo in 3-5 hours time.

And despite the videos and good comments you posted, I still believe this is a bad way to run a business. I fully believe the type of client you are will translate to the type of business you have. So far, you are showing that you really don't trust others (hence wanting 50 people doing this, 49 of which will work for free), and you also feel that the work others do has little value. Just my .02, but this is not a good business mindset. Indeed, this isn't an all-encompassing rule, mind you. There likely are a few successes that use services like this and post videos. If that makes you feel better about it, have at it.

Four94
08-02-2010, 12:04 PM
It sounds to me like you are trying - really hard - to justify this to yourself and others.

Personally, I would never use a service like this, startup or not. To start, let's be honest - the results really weren't that good - you picked the best of an ordinary bunch, and really got less than you paid for. You went to the all you can eat buffet for $14.99 and had a "meh" meal, thinking "I'm saving big money over the $100 restaurant". And yea, you did. But you could have also went to the good downtown diner for $17.99 and had a fabulous meal.

Secondly, I am not comfortable with people working for me for free, whether they do so willingly or not. I'm a professional who feels good work has value. I do not mind - at all - paying someone for good work. There are all kinds of price points out there, for all kinds of budgets, that don't rely on people working for free. There are designers that will charge 5k, and there are designers that will charge $50 an hour and get you a nice logo in 3-5 hours time.

And despite the videos and good comments you posted, I still believe this is a bad way to run a business. I fully believe the type of client you are will translate to the type of business you have. So far, you are showing that you really don't trust others (hence wanting 50 people doing this, 49 of which will work for free), and you also feel that the work others do has little value. Just my .02, but this is not a good business mindset. Indeed, this isn't an all-encompassing rule, mind you. There likely are a few successes that use services like this and post videos. If that makes you feel better about it, have at it.

Hi Dan,

It seems to me that you are getting overly sensitive to this.
I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.
I do welcome your honest feedback.

Take Care & Thanks,
Mark Richardson

Harold Mansfield
08-02-2010, 12:11 PM
It sounds to me like you are trying - really hard - to justify this to yourself and others.

Personally, I would never use a service like this, startup or not. To start, let's be honest - the results really weren't that good - you picked the best of an ordinary bunch, and really got less than you paid for. You went to the all you can eat buffet for $14.99 and had a "meh" meal, thinking "I'm saving big money over the $100 restaurant". And yea, you did. But you could have also went to the good downtown diner for $17.99 and had a fabulous meal.

Secondly, I am not comfortable with people working for me for free, whether they do so willingly or not. I'm a professional who feels good work has value. I do not mind - at all - paying someone for good work. There are all kinds of price points out there, for all kinds of budgets, that don't rely on people working for free. There are designers that will charge 5k, and there are designers that will charge $50 an hour and get you a nice logo in 3-5 hours time.

And despite the videos and good comments you posted, I still believe this is a bad way to run a business. I fully believe the type of client you are will translate to the type of business you have. So far, you are showing that you really don't trust others (hence wanting 50 people doing this, 49 of which will work for free), and you also feel that the work others do has little value. Just my .02, but this is not a good business mindset. Indeed, this isn't an all-encompassing rule, mind you. There likely are a few successes that use services like this and post videos. If that makes you feel better about it, have at it.

I agree with you completely Dan.
Obviously not new in the world of business. Basically it equates to some people take pleasure in being able to see how many people they can get to jump and how high. It's not the same as price shopping. It's different because it comes from the mindset that there are enough people out there that are desperate for work that I can totally screw with them and get what I want for cheap. Sure that attitude can take you a good distance, until it is done to you and someone devalues your time and belittles your worth.

You can't treat people one way and expect to be treated any differently. You get what you give and even if you get the first few projects covered this way, eventually your reputation will be one that people won't want to work with you.

It's common for people to investigate service providers, narrow it down to the best and take bids and ideas on the project..but for a small start up with no budget to waste the time of 50 different people just to see how much work they can get people to do, it starts to look a lot less like business savvy and a lot more like ego.

I used to see the same attitude back on the strip when I was driving, there was always the guy that would walk down the line of available limo drivers asking each one "How Much?" Different cars, different sizes, different amenities..obviously not all the same, but the goal for people like that was the price, not the product. In this situation every time they got to me, my answer was always "Too much for you" because that is the guy that will drink all of your booze, smoke in the car, want you you to stuff 10 people into a 6 passenger limo, leave a mess and stiff you on the tip.

I have found that this attitude is prevalent in business as well and I can see them coming a mile away. When I see a small no budget start up proud that they made 50 people jump though hoops even though they had no intention of doing business with 49 of them...it's the same guy and it's really hard to pull off with no money.

Blessed
08-02-2010, 12:45 PM
I'm agreeing with Dan too.

Mark - you assert that we are all "overly sensitive" to this approach of doing business and should read your blog and watch the videos you've posted so that we'll "understand" why you want to approach things this way. I think we all understand without having to read your blog or watch your videos. You're cheap, not frugal, not price shopping - just cheap. Hoping that by buying the huge discount, made-in-china brand you luck out and get the same quality you would find at the local boutique. I'm not trying to attack you - I'm just pointing out the impression I'm getting from reading your posts - about the logo, why you aren't hosting your own web page, the multiple projects I saw you had brief's for on 99Designs. If I ever needed the services you offer I wouldn't come to you, because of that impression - good, bad or indifferent, that's how it is. Not everyone has the same type of mindset I do though, so we can simply agree to disagree and go on with our work.

So... are you going to offer your services through whatever equivalent to 99Designs there is in your line of work? Or, if it doesn't exist already are you going to create it? Why or why not?

Dan Furman
08-02-2010, 03:10 PM
Hi Dan,

It seems to me that you are getting overly sensitive to this.
I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.
I do welcome your honest feedback.

Take Care & Thanks,
Mark Richardson

No, not really, Mark. Just trying to have a discussion on an intertesting topic, that's all.

I'd really like to hear YOUR thoughts on the subject (not a video or a book or a linkedin message from someone), as well as how you justify what you will charge for your eventual work as opposed to what you expect others to do. It's not trying to put you on the spot - it's discussion on a topic that you brought up and also touted as good. I'm curious as to whether you think the "contest" route is a good route for your own business to take with your product/service? Will you guys spend time making an app for free in hopes that it gets chosen? Why or why not?

Four94
08-02-2010, 04:01 PM
I'm agreeing with Dan too.

Mark - you assert that we are all "overly sensitive" to this approach of doing business and should read your blog and watch the videos you've posted so that we'll "understand" why you want to approach things this way. I think we all understand without having to read your blog or watch your videos. You're cheap, not frugal, not price shopping - just cheap. Hoping that by buying the huge discount, made-in-china brand you luck out and get the same quality you would find at the local boutique. I'm not trying to attack you - I'm just pointing out the impression I'm getting from reading your posts - about the logo, why you aren't hosting your own web page, the multiple projects I saw you had brief's for on 99Designs. If I ever needed the services you offer I wouldn't come to you, because of that impression - good, bad or indifferent, that's how it is. Not everyone has the same type of mindset I do though, so we can simply agree to disagree and go on with our work.

So... are you going to offer your services through whatever equivalent to 99Designs there is in your line of work? Or, if it doesn't exist already are you going to create it? Why or why not?

I wouldn't say we are cheap.
We are just trying to grow the business in the most cost efficient way as possible.
We are "software developers" and "IT" guys.

Most of our dollars have to be spent on "writing code,
product development and other marketing activities besides logo design".

No matter if we spend 100 or 100,000 on our logo.
Without a product, we have no business.

The designer who created our Logo in our opinion, gave us a very "serviceable" design to start off with. The fact that he knew we were a new company and still was willing to work with us within our budgets got him more business with us.

We now have a working relationship with him.
He is a very nice and creative guy that is helping us on other projects that we need help with.

It is very clear between us and him.
That as we "help" each other grow, it will benefit both of us.

In fact, if things pan out right. We have no problem giving this guy "profit sharing" or "equity" in the future. He is putting his time into early stage business that may or may not pan out. That's a risk that he has made it clear to us that he is willing to take.

When it comes to putting up our website, why do all of that when we are still in the
process of getting our message down and finding our "tested idea"?

The top 2 "mistakes" I have seen new businesses make are the following.

1. Creating a product/service based on what "they think" will work.
Basically, not testing their idea to see if their is an actual market for it.

2. Not clearly defining a message of what they are selling.

Not sure if you read our "About Us" on our Blog. But it clearly states, "we hope to find a niche in this market (SaaS) that we can turn into our flagship product

We are just like most new businesses "EXCEPT"

We aren't going to make the "Top 2 Mistakes" I just mention above.

Would you really spend even 500 bucks on a logo when you don't have a "Tested" business idea yet? Now, if we had something tested and proven that we will make money from it.

I have no problem with dropping 5,000 on a logo, because I will have "proof" that I would get that money back most likely.

This is why we have taken a "Grass Roots" marketing approach in getting feedback on our message, our process and our business ideas.

I understand being against places like 99Designs I really do.
A lot of software developers have to compete with jobs being outsourced in India.

But considering where we are in the stage of the game, I can't justify spending more than what we did for our logo.

We have a lot of ideas of what type of products we are going to make.
But until we have a "tested" and proven one that will bring in money.

This "low cost investment" and "grass roots" approach is great for us now.

Once again everyone, I take no offense to honest feedback here.

Your feedback will always been welcome with me.

Take Care,
Mark Richardson

Four94
08-02-2010, 04:35 PM
No, not really, Mark. Just trying to have a discussion on an intertesting topic, that's all.

I'd really like to hear YOUR thoughts on the subject (not a video or a book or a linkedin message from someone), as well as how you justify what you will charge for your eventual work as opposed to what you expect others to do. It's not trying to put you on the spot - it's discussion on a topic that you brought up and also touted as good. I'm curious as to whether you think the "contest" route is a good route for your own business to take with your product/service? Will you guys spend time making an app for free in hopes that it gets chosen? Why or why not?

Hi Dan,

Please read my response to "Blessed".
That should answer some of your questions.

Now you ask the following question.

"Will you guys spend time making an app for free in hopes that it gets chosen? Why or why not?"

The current plan is to offer either a "Free version with limited functionality" or
"a 30 day trail version" where the customer could decide to keep using it or not.

If we go this option, the customer wouldn't have to enter in a credit card just to use the trail.
I hate it when places make you enter in a credit card just to use a trail.

We won't be doing any of that with our products.

Thanks,
Mark

cbscreative
08-02-2010, 05:27 PM
It is very clear between us and him.
That as we "help" each other grow, it will benefit both of us.

In fact, if things pan out right. We have no problem giving this guy "profit sharing" or "equity" in the future. He is putting his time into early stage business that may or may not pan out. That's a risk that he has made it clear to us that he is willing to take.

Sounds like a perfect fit then since this is clearly a new designer. But every experienced designer will tell you we hear that one all the time. And the reason we chuckle every time we hear it is that the people telling us this will almost always be out of business within a year. I'm not saying you will be, you could be the exception, but the approach is flawed. It's like saying you'll invest in your business only after you have profit.

I get what you're saying that you don't want to market something without establishing a market for it. That's smart business. I'm just pointing out that when us experienced business people get approached with the promise of "you'll make great money when we do," then I'm glad for places like 99Designs. In fact, because there are so many people willing to work for nothing, I rarely get approached with those promises any more. They usually Google something like "cheap logo design" where I never have to worry about coming up in the results.

Based on your description of the stage your business is at, I fail to see why the logo was even needed yet. If you haven't clearly defined your market and product, you're not far enough along to strategically develop a logo.

Four94
08-02-2010, 05:56 PM
Sounds like a perfect fit then since this is clearly a new designer. But every experienced designer will tell you we hear that one all the time. And the reason we chuckle every time we hear it is that the people telling us this will almost always be out of business within a year. I'm not saying you will be, you could be the exception, but the approach is flawed. It's like saying you'll invest in your business only after you have profit.

I get what you're saying that you don't want to market something without establishing a market for it. That's smart business. I'm just pointing out that when us experienced business people get approached with the promise of "you'll make great money when we do," then I'm glad for places like 99Designs. In fact, because there are so many people willing to work for nothing, I rarely get approached with those promises any more. They usually Google something like "cheap logo design" where I never have to worry about coming up in the results.

Based on your description of the stage your business is at, I fail to see why the logo was even needed yet. If you haven't clearly defined your market and product, you're not far enough along to strategically develop a logo.

The most important part for us is "Idea Testing" at this point.
If we get that part straight, we will be fine :) :)

Take Care,
Mark

Dan Furman
08-02-2010, 07:09 PM
Would you really spend even 500 bucks on a logo when you don't have a "Tested" business idea yet? Now, if we had something tested and proven that we will make money from it.

I wouldn't spend any money on a logo. Or go developing "let's grow together" partnerships. Or anything else like that, really. You are correct that without a product, there's nothing. To me, that comes first. I was a writer ready to produce my end product before I started my writing business. You want to sell applications - you probably need to start on developing an app before almost anything else.

And trust me, there will never be any proof of profitability. At some point, you are almost certain to be forced to take a monetary risk.

Personally, what you are doing here in this forum is good - talk to more small businesspeople who have succeeded in the trenches. Emulating the millionaires who created something and sold it in a right place / right time fashion is almost always a mistake.

Harold Mansfield
08-02-2010, 11:01 PM
I wouldn't say we are cheap.
We are just trying to grow the business in the most cost efficient way as possible.
We are "software developers" and "IT" guys.

Most of our dollars have to be spent on "writing code,
product development and other marketing activities besides logo design".
How much money do you actually spend writing code? And what other "Marketing Activities" are you spending on that are more important that hosing your own website?


No matter if we spend 100 or 100,000 on our logo.
Without a product, we have no business.

The designer who created our Logo in our opinion, gave us a very "serviceable" design to start off with. The fact that he knew we were a new company and still was willing to work with us within our budgets got him more business with us.
That's a nice sentiment and I have done work for start ups with the promise of future business, but that is still a risk and to date none of them have turned into anything more than the discount that they have received for services.

We now have a working relationship with him.
He is a very nice and creative guy that is helping us on other projects that we need help with.
That's a nice sentiment "When we start making money, we will throw more work at you" or "We talk to a lot of people and we can recommend you to all of them".and I have done work for start ups with the promise of future business, but that is still a risk and to date none of them have turned into anything more than the discount that they have received for services.
"We''l take care of you later", is an old ploy that rarely is true and generally only works on noobs and people that have less money than you..unless they are friends or family.



In fact, if things pan out right. We have no problem giving this guy "profit sharing" or "equity" in the future. He is putting his time into early stage business that may or may not pan out. That's a risk that he has made it clear to us that he is willing to take.
You got lucky with him if he believes that you will give him profit sharing rather than just pay him for his services. Last time I checked, a share of nothing is still nothing. Very few experienced business people would fall for that one. You can't pay the bills with promises. If you are happy with his services you will be a returning customer anyway, no need to give it away to get your business.


When it comes to putting up our website, why do all of that when we are still in the
process of getting our message down and finding our "tested idea"?
It's not "all of that". It's a necessary marketing expense if you want people to take you seriously. Everyone has an idea or a dream, but if you are not willing to step off of the curb and make a minimal investment to properly present your ideas and represent your business, then you are wasting your time with everything else. it seems to me that 4 guys with the technical knowledge that you claim to have to do your own work , would not be caught dead with their business on a free blog site when they could have their own so easily and cheaply...probably for what you spent on the logo.

It's like buying a BMW jacket before you actually own the BMW. You don't have anything to put a logo on. What's next? Coffee Mugs and Hats?


The top 2 "mistakes" I have seen new businesses make are the following.

1. Creating a product/service based on what "they think" will work.
Basically, not testing their idea to see if their is an actual market for it.

2. Not clearly defining a message of what they are selling.

There are a lot more mistakes than that, but putting a company website on a free hosted blog or a website with crappy design, bad content management, and putting style over substance is also a big one. Another HUGE one is calling yourself something before you have secured it as your actual name and registered it as a domain.
Four94.com has been registered since july 12th. I really hope that it is by one of your guys. If so, a better use of money would have been to register the .net and .org to keep competitors away from your brand..something else that is cheap and more important than a logo.


Not sure if you read our "About Us" on our Blog. But it clearly states, "we hope to find a niche in this market (SaaS) that we can turn into our flagship product

We are just like most new businesses "EXCEPT"

We aren't going to make the "Top 2 Mistakes" I just mention above.

Would you really spend even 500 bucks on a logo when you don't have a "Tested" business idea yet? Now, if we had something tested and proven that we will make money from it.
A logo would be the last thing on my mind and actually still is. Its a vanity statement. It's only a marketing tool if you have a marketing budget. Other than that, with resources and money in short supply, I can think of 100 other things for a start up to do beside worrying about a logo. And if you study start ups and have worked with successful ones in the past..you would know that none of them cared about something so trivial in the beginning...it was after they started to make money and needed to market on a large scale and build a brand identity that the logos came into play. AFTER.


I have no problem with dropping 5,000 on a logo, because I will have "proof" that I would get that money back most likely.
You don't get you money back from a logo because it has no bearing on the success of your company. For a start up, tangible things that actually mean something and have value are investments that you can measure return on such as a great domain to help drive traffic to your company, and a website that generates interest, leads and new clients. Those are things that are measurable that have actual returns. Not what color your stationary is.

Logos don't entice people to spend money until you have sunk millions in promotion to brand them


This is why we have taken a "Grass Roots" marketing approach in getting feedback on our message, our process and our business ideas.

I understand being against places like 99Designs I really do.
A lot of software developers have to compete with jobs being outsourced in India.

But considering where we are in the stage of the game, I can't justify spending more than what we did for our logo.

I don't think many people have as much of a problem with 99 designs as you think, nor really care where you get your logo designed. It's the ideas of what it takes to be in business that seem a little misguided. I can appreciate the fact that in your mind you are a silicon valley start up with $100 million investment, but in the real world you are not and it doesn't seem like you have a grasp on the situation as it is now.

"Grass Roots" means using the community structure at a local level to drive ideas and promote a cause. If you were truly "Grass Roots" you would be utilizing that power on internet communities, and networking sites to grow your brand and create interest in your company and it's products.
A logo at this stage of your game is the OPPOSITE of "grass roots"


We have a lot of ideas of what type of products we are going to make.
But until we have a "tested" and proven one that will bring in money.
This "low cost investment" and "grass roots" approach is great for us now.
Of course. Everyone starts out lean, but it only works if you make sound decisions with the money that you do spend. Spending on a logo to put on a website that you don't own is not spending wisely and falls more in the romantic section of the bookstore than the manufacturing section.

I don't care how much "testing" you do, there is no way to PROVE that a product will be successful or that a business will be successful. You have to put it out there to ever have a chance other than that it's just a bunch of dreams and philosophies which aren't worth much to anyone because they are a dime a dozen.


Once again everyone, I take no offense to honest feedback here.

Your feedback will always been welcome with me.

Take Care,
Mark Richardson

And please don't take this as an attack on you personally, just some things that I see in what you are saying that remind me of me, when I was in the "Thinking" stage and wanted everything to be mapped out and perfect before I started a business including it's image. Once I got over the romantic stage, I rolled up my sleeves and got to doing actual work.

Most of your business copy is a lot of ideals and philosophies but not a whole lot about what you do, or are going to do. There's not even a clear definition of who you are or what kind of experience, training or specialties you posses. You seem to be more concerned with building an image than an actual working business and you are not doing that very convincingly by ignoring the obvious elephants in the room and trying to talk over the noise that they make.

It reminds me of people that talk using a lot of buzz words, but don't actually say anything. I would never harp so much on the importance of a website..I think it's necessary, but not necessarily an immediate concern for every type of business...but for software developers? It's a no brainer and seems absurd that you don't think it's important.

If I had to guess , I would say that it looks more like you are staging the chapters of a future book on how to start a business without spending any money and "BS" your way to success...which would actually be a good title, except for one thing... It's been done before multiple times and everyone is kind of hip to it now. So when your mouth is moving and nothing concrete comes out other than ideas and philosophy, don't be surprised if people start yawning or checking their watch.

Get serious about developing a product and how to sell it to your target market. You don't even need a company name to do that.

Four94
08-03-2010, 08:53 AM
I wouldn't spend any money on a logo. Or go developing "let's grow together" partnerships. Or anything else like that, really. You are correct that without a product, there's nothing. To me, that comes first. I was a writer ready to produce my end product before I started my writing business. You want to sell applications - you probably need to start on developing an app before almost anything else.

And trust me, there will never be any proof of profitability. At some point, you are almost certain to be forced to take a monetary risk.

Personally, what you are doing here in this forum is good - talk to more small businesspeople who have succeeded in the trenches. Emulating the millionaires who created something and sold it in a right place / right time fashion is almost always a mistake.

Let me clarify,
We didn't put any "grow together" partnerships in place.

I have heard that message a million times before.
This was just something discussed among our group and nothing more.

I just wanted to communicate that.

Thanks,
Mark

Four94
08-03-2010, 08:56 AM
How much money do you actually spend writing code? And what other "Marketing Activities" are you spending on that are more important that hosing your own website?


That's a nice sentiment "When we start making money, we will throw more work at you" or "We talk to a lot of people and we can recommend you to all of them".and I have done work for start ups with the promise of future business, but that is still a risk and to date none of them have turned into anything more than the discount that they have received for services.
"We''l take care of you later", is an old ploy that rarely is true and generally only works on noobs and people that have less money than you..unless they are friends or family.



You got lucky with him if he believes that you will give him profit sharing rather than just pay him for his services. Last time I checked, a share of nothing is still nothing. Very few experienced business people would fall for that one. You can't pay the bills with promises. If you are happy with his services you will be a returning customer anyway, no need to give it away to get your business.

It's not "all of that". It's a necessary marketing expense if you want people to take you seriously. Everyone has an idea or a dream, but if you are not willing to step off of the curb and make a minimal investment to properly present your ideas and represent your business, then you are wasting your time with everything else. it seems to me that 4 guys with the technical knowledge that you claim to have to do your own work , would not be caught dead with their business on a free blog site when they could have their own so easily and cheaply...probably for what you spent on the logo.

It's like buying a BMW jacket before you actually own the BMW. You don't have anything to put a logo on. What's next? Coffee Mugs and Hats?


There are a lot more mistakes than that, but putting a company website on a free hosted blog or a website with crappy design, bad content management, and putting style over substance is also a big one. Another HUGE one is calling yourself something before you have secured it as your actual name and registered it as a domain.
Four94.com has been registered since july 12th. I really hope that it is by one of your guys. If so, a better use of money would have been to register the .net and .org to keep competitors away from your brand..something else that is cheap and more important than a logo.


A logo would be the last thing on my mind and actually still is. Its a vanity statement. It's only a marketing tool if you have a marketing budget. Other than that, with resources and money in short supply, I can think of 100 other things for a start up to do beside worrying about a logo. And if you study start ups and have worked with successful ones in the past..you would know that none of them cared about something so trivial in the beginning...it was after they started to make money and needed to market on a large scale and build a brand identity that the logos came into play. AFTER.


You don't get you money back from a logo because it has no bearing on the success of your company. For a start up, tangible things that actually mean something and have value are investments that you can measure return on such as a great domain to help drive traffic to your company, and a website that generates interest, leads and new clients. Those are things that are measurable that have actual returns. Not what color your stationary is.

Logos don't entice people to spend money until you have sunk millions in promotion to brand them

I don't think many people have as much of a problem with 99 designs as you think, nor really care where you get your logo designed. It's the ideas of what it takes to be in business that seem a little misguided. I can appreciate the fact that in your mind you are a silicon valley start up with $100 million investment, but in the real world you are not and it doesn't seem like you have a grasp on the situation as it is now.

"Grass Roots" means using the community structure at a local level to drive ideas and promote a cause. If you were truly "Grass Roots" you would be utilizing that power on internet communities, and networking sites to grow your brand and create interest in your company and it's products.
A logo at this stage of your game is the OPPOSITE of "grass roots"

Of course. Everyone starts out lean, but it only works if you make sound decisions with the money that you do spend. Spending on a logo to put on a website that you don't own is not spending wisely and falls more in the romantic section of the bookstore than the manufacturing section.

I don't care how much "testing" you do, there is no way to PROVE that a product will be successful or that a business will be successful. You have to put it out there to ever have a chance other than that it's just a bunch of dreams and philosophies which aren't worth much to anyone because they are a dime a dozen.



And please don't take this as an attack on you personally, just some things that I see in what you are saying that remind me of me, when I was in the "Thinking" stage and wanted everything to be mapped out and perfect before I started a business including it's image. Once I got over the romantic stage, I rolled up my sleeves and got to doing actual work.

Most of your business copy is a lot of ideals and philosophies but not a whole lot about what you do, or are going to do. There's not even a clear definition of who you are or what kind of experience, training or specialties you posses. You seem to be more concerned with building an image than an actual working business and you are not doing that very convincingly by ignoring the obvious elephants in the room and trying to talk over the noise that they make.

It reminds me of people that talk using a lot of buzz words, but don't actually say anything. I would never harp so much on the importance of a website..I think it's necessary, but not necessarily an immediate concern for every type of business...but for software developers? It's a no brainer and seems absurd that you don't think it's important.

If I had to guess , I would say that it looks more like you are staging the chapters of a future book on how to start a business without spending any money and "BS" your way to success...which would actually be a good title, except for one thing... It's been done before multiple times and everyone is kind of hip to it now. So when your mouth is moving and nothing concrete comes out other than ideas and philosophy, don't be surprised if people start yawning or checking their watch.

Get serious about developing a product and how to sell it to your target market. You don't even need a company name to do that.

Thanks Harold, we are at a standstill here.
There is no point in continuing discussion with you.

Take Care,
Mark Richardson

Harold Mansfield
08-03-2010, 09:34 AM
Thanks Harold, we are at a standstill here.
There is no point in continuing discussion with you.

Take Care,
Mark Richardson

I'm really sorry you feel that way. This was more my opinion based on experience than it is a discussion, but whether of not you want to listen or discuss it now, you will have to address these issues eventually if you want to be successful...unless you just get lucky. Most people don't just get lucky.
But if you want some real world opinions from people who have already traveled the road that you are on, then you have come to the right place since there are many people on this forum who have bootstrapped their dream into a successful business.

Four94
08-03-2010, 09:56 AM
I'm really sorry you feel that way. This was more my opinion based on experience than it is a discussion, but whether of not you want to listen or discuss it now, you will have to address these issues eventually if you want to be successful...unless you just get lucky. Most people don't just get lucky.
But if you want some real world opinions from people who have already traveled the road that you are on, then you have come to the right place since there are many people on this forum who have bootstrapped their dream into a successful business.

I personally just question your professionalism.
It seems to me that you are going "below the belt" instead of just giving an opinion.

IMO, when you see someone break down each paragraph of something you wrote on a message board.
That sir is what I like to call "Flaming Wars" which leads down a "negative" path.

I am a huge Chicago Bears fan.
I see that type of stuff on the Bears message board all the time.
Fans flaming each other for disagreements.

Sure, you might not agree with our approach and I have no problems with that.
I do like honest and constructive feedback.

But if you are going to go below the belt with me.
I have to exit the conversation.

Good Day Sir,

Mark

Harold Mansfield
08-03-2010, 10:57 AM
I don't know where I hit below the belt, but if you take it that way let me apologize now. I'm not here to insult you, but I will admit that I do have a way of over stating my point. As far as breaking down the paragraph, I again apologize if that reminds you of a negative experience, but I find it is easier to organize my thoughts and respond to certain points, rather than placing them out of context.

You posted here because it was an open discussion and exchange of ideas from different levels of experience. I am sure you did not post here because you thought everyone was going to agree with you. Believe me, no one here has that luxury.
But we ( or at least I) will be frank and try to suggest that you avoid some of the mistakes that I have made, or have seen other people make that caused them to waste valuable time, money or just fold right out of the gates.

Everyone's approach to business is going to be different and I'm not here to suggest that you have to do things my way or it won't work. There are somethings that a little more important than others at the beginning stages and I'm merely suggesting that you take notice of what other people are noticing and strive to fill in some of those holes so that people don't pass you by.

One of the biggest mistakes that I see my clients make is assuming that people know what they mean. I can't tell you how many times I have heard "Yeah, but people in the business know what we are talking about", and I was just merely suggesting that you not fall into that same trap.
It's a lot of wasted time because eventually you will be sitting there wondering why the phone is not ringing.

If I can help you avoid some of those pitfalls, I will. If I just wanted to argue and flame people, I have plenty of blogs that I can do that to any politician I please at a moments notice (that's actually a lot more fun for me) ..I don't need to come here to do that and discourage people.

I want to see everyone succeed and learn more about how I can go to the next level. Isn't that why we are all here?

Four94
08-03-2010, 11:48 AM
I don't know where I hit below the belt, but if you take it that way let me apologize now. I'm not here to insult you, but I will admit that I do have a way of over stating my point. As far as breaking down the paragraph, I again apologize if that reminds you of a negative experience, but I find it is easier to organize my thoughts and respond to certain points, rather than placing them out of context.

You posted here because it was an open discussion and exchange of ideas from different levels of experience. I am sure you did not post here because you thought everyone was going to agree with you. Believe me, no one here has that luxury.
But we ( or at least I) will be frank and try to suggest that you avoid some of the mistakes that I have made, or have seen other people make that caused them to waste valuable time, money or just fold right out of the gates.

Everyone's approach to business is going to be different and I'm not here to suggest that you have to do things my way or it won't work. There are somethings that a little more important than others at the beginning stages and I'm merely suggesting that you take notice of what other people are noticing and strive to fill in some of those holes so that people don't pass you by.

One of the biggest mistakes that I see my clients make is assuming that people know what they mean. I can't tell you how many times I have heard "Yeah, but people in the business know what we are talking about", and I was just merely suggesting that you not fall into that same trap.
It's a lot of wasted time because eventually you will be sitting there wondering why the phone is not ringing.

If I can help you avoid some of those pitfalls, I will. If I just wanted to argue and flame people, I have plenty of blogs that I can do that to any politician I please at a moments notice (that's actually a lot more fun for me) ..I don't need to come here to do that and discourage people.

I want to see everyone succeed and learn more about how I can go to the next level. Isn't that why we are all here?

I think if you saw our plans they would make a lot more sense to you.
Also, we do own Four94.com.

Mark

Business Attorney
08-03-2010, 12:15 PM
I personally just question your professionalism.
It seems to me that you are going "below the belt" instead of just giving an opinion.

Mark, I have read the comments from Harold and the others and the only hitting below the belt I see is your comment questioning Harold's professionalism, apparently on the basis that you don't like the substance of his comments.

Also, I see nothing wrong with taking a very long post and breaking it down so that it is clear which points you are responding to. Perhaps on a Chicago Bears forum, that type of a response is flaming, but here where we are trying to help each, it is clearly not.

You are new to this community and our ways may not be obvious to you. Most of us have been here for several years and we feel comfortable criticizing each others' ideas. We believe that having someone challenge our idea helps us look more critically at the idea ourselves. Sometimes the criticism is accepted and sometimes it is rejected. That is entirely up to the person whose idea it is. The criticism is not intended to be personal.

If you are really interested in testing your ideas and concepts, please keep posting. There is a lot to be learned from the wide variety of business owners and professionals on this forum.

If you want a rubber stamp instead of a sounding board or are more interested in convincing someone that their criticism is invalid rather than simply accepting or rejecting it and moving on, then I am afraid that you will not enjoy being a part of this community.

Four94
08-03-2010, 12:38 PM
Mark, I have read the comments from Harold and the others and the only hitting below the belt I see is your comment questioning Harold's professionalism, apparently on the basis that you don't like the substance of his comments.

Also, I see nothing wrong with taking a very long post and breaking it down so that it is clear which points you are responding to. Perhaps on a Chicago Bears forum, that type of a response is flaming, but here where we are trying to help each, it is clearly not.

You are new to this community and our ways may not be obvious to you. Most of us have been here for several years and we feel comfortable criticizing each others' ideas. We believe that having someone challenge our idea helps us look more critically at the idea ourselves. Sometimes the criticism is accepted and sometimes it is rejected. That is entirely up to the person whose idea it is. The criticism is not intended to be personal.

If you are really interested in testing your ideas and concepts, please keep posting. There is a lot to be learned from the wide variety of business owners and professionals on this forum.

If you want a rubber stamp instead of a sounding board or are more interested in convincing someone that their criticism is invalid rather than simply accepting or rejecting it and moving on, then I am afraid that you will not enjoy being a part of this community.

Hi David,

I have no problem with criticism I really don't.
Getting critical feedback is how we all get better.

I have been an Entrepreneur for 10 years now.
I have learned a lot, but I don't know everything.
So the more feedback, the more experience I can gain.

But over the years I have came across a few people that do more "talking down" than actually helping. It usually happens mostly from individuals with a lot of experience.

"How" you give feedback to someone especially in a forum like a message board has to be taken with a certain caution.
The fact that I am "new" to this place means that "more caution" of how I am approached should have been taken.

I just have my boundaries and will always stand up to anyone that pushes past those boundaries.
Sure some people might call that sensitive, but it's who I am.

I just took Harold's response as the "talking down" type of feedback instead of giving constructive feedback.

You might see if differently, but that's how I took it.

But I am here to stay.

I like the forum.

In the future, if I feel that someone else is going below the belt with me.
I will call them out on it as well.

Thanks,
Mark Richardson

Harold Mansfield
08-03-2010, 02:54 PM
I would never talk down to anyone. Now sarcasm..that's a different story. I'm full of that, but all in good clean fun.

Four94
08-03-2010, 03:12 PM
I would never talk down to anyone. Now sarcasm..that's a different story. I'm full of that, but all in good clean fun.

Hi Harold,

It's all about perception.
One thing I have learned over the years is to be "extremely" careful in how I talk with people on a message board.

Text based messaging has it's downfalls that at times will inaccurately communicate messages.

I still consider you a Friend :)

Mark

AmyAllen
10-06-2010, 04:40 PM
If you are really interested in testing your ideas and concepts, please keep posting. There is a lot to be learned from the wide variety of business owners and professionals on this forum.

If you want a rubber stamp instead of a sounding board or are more interested in convincing someone that their criticism is invalid rather than simply accepting or rejecting it and moving on, then I am afraid that you will not enjoy being a part of this community.

I have definitely noticed this on this forum. I've just been mostly reading posts the last few weeks, and ya'll definitely have a "trial by fire" approach to advice. There is a wealth of wisdom here, but I don't think I'd ask a question about my own business unless I was really ready to hear the worst! :) For now, I'm just going to keep reading and learning from the hits other people are taking.

KristineS
10-06-2010, 05:26 PM
I have definitely noticed this on this forum. I've just been mostly reading posts the last few weeks, and ya'll definitely have a "trial by fire" approach to advice. There is a wealth of wisdom here, but I don't think I'd ask a question about my own business unless I was really ready to hear the worst! :) For now, I'm just going to keep reading and learning from the hits other people are taking.

I don't think anyone here is trying to be mean, Amy, we just genuinely want to help and sometimes that means telling someone something that might be unpalatable. If people are looking for rubber stamps or someone to say "yeah that's great" and not put any thought into their answer, then just probably isn't the place for them. I also think there is as much celebrating and congratulating as anything here.

Most of us are veterans of other forums and we've had our share of the "me too" posters and the unhelpful advice when you're really looking for an answer that works. Personally I'd rather have honest over pablum any day of the week.

vangogh
10-06-2010, 06:39 PM
Amy never be afraid to ask questions about your business. I agree with Kristine that none of us are trying to be mean or needlessly critical. We're trying to be honest. Think about which is better. To keep pushing along with an idea that isn't likely to work no matter how much you put into it or learning as quickly as possible that you may want to consider other ideas.

You always have to be ready to hear the worst. It's important to develop a thick skin where your business is concerned. Sadly there will always be people trying to tell you you're no good and every business has it's ups and downs. Early on there's likely to be more downs than ups. You don't necessarily have to listen to what people tell you of course. We're all just people with opinions and sometimes we're wrong. Some of the best ideas were criticized by most everyone. A single person or business had the foresight to see it through. You should though be prepared to hear it, though.

Criticism can be a great thing. Don't ever take it personally, but understand if 5 people here all suggest something may not work or that we couldn't see ourselves using your product or service there's a good chance others will see it that way too. Listen to the criticism and understand what it's really saying. Sometimes from a few people telling you bad things about your business you can identify the one or two problems that would keep you from being a success and figure out how to fix them.

A big part of success is failure along the way. I can only speak for myself, but I'd bet most here would share my experiences. I've failed a number of times and I plan of failing again. It's a way to get bad ideas out so you can move on the the successful ones and it's a way to learn so you can make your next idea and decision a better one.

Harold Mansfield
10-06-2010, 07:09 PM
I have definitely noticed this on this forum. I've just been mostly reading posts the last few weeks, and ya'll definitely have a "trial by fire" approach to advice. There is a wealth of wisdom here, but I don't think I'd ask a question about my own business unless I was really ready to hear the worst! :) For now, I'm just going to keep reading and learning from the hits other people are taking.

You always have to be ready to hear the worst or else you will ignore some good stuff. But you have to remember that these are merely opinions. A different look. No one is here to be gruff or a buzz kill, but seeing how other people see things can be a great help to how your customers see things. Most times you will never notice it unless someone else points it out.
Critiques ( that you ask for) are meant to help you improve, not bust your bubble.

cbscreative
10-06-2010, 09:52 PM
ya'll definitely have a "trial by fire" approach to advice

I guess that depends on what threads you're reading. Some threads are discussions among members here who've known each other on the forum for a long time. Those threads can get "fiery" if you're not familiar with our dynamics here. We'll often be more brutally honest than we would be with a newer or less known member.

When we hand out a general critique, especially when asked, it won't always be sugar coated. The market is much more brutal than we are and you stand to lose a lot of money there too. Our criticism, when given, is intended to be helpful and never mean spirited.

Then there are threads like this one. If you read it through, especially if you have the experience of some of the members here, it will speak for itself. When we get self proclaimed experts touting their wisdom like they know all the answers, well, we respond to that too without much concern for being nice. If you were just lurking through the forum and found bad advice going unchallenged, then what would that say about us? Yeah, things can get spirited, but we feel it's better to allow all perspectives to get voiced, counter points to be made, and let everyone reach their own conclusions.

Don't worry about asking a question, Amy. We can tell someone looking for honest feedback from those looking to justify their preconceived ideas. We won't shoot you down, but you will get ideas and perspectives you would probably never think of on your own. You have a lot to gain from it.

jamesray50
12-12-2010, 02:58 AM
And my appreciation to everyone here who does answer honestly.

brookeandcamera
12-26-2010, 06:04 PM
I like #6 I think those proportions are easy to design with as opposed to a longer more narrow logo.

jamesray50
12-26-2010, 09:27 PM
I have another comment to add to this thread. Before I joined this forum I read through some of the threads to see if this would be a good forum for me. Some of the things I look for in a forum are the number of posts, how frequently the posts are and the content of the posts. I found one post in particular where someone had asked for a review of their website and the reviews were all over the place. Some were good, but some were very critical, a lot of constructive criticism. I thought if the members of this forum would take the time to look at someones website and write what they thought would make it better, then this would be a good forum for me. I have not made a mistake. I don't participate in all discussions, but I do read them all, and if I can off any advice I do. Of all the forums I am a member of this one is my favorite.

andru77
01-13-2011, 02:27 AM
I'm not a design guy. I saw the logo you picked. I can honestly say, you got what you paid for. Just my opinion.

Dan Furman
01-19-2011, 11:54 PM
I also see they kinda let the blog die.

Harold Mansfield
01-20-2011, 09:21 AM
I also see they kinda let the blog die.

Yeah, I noticed that too. Looks like it hasn't been touched since July of last year. Well, maybe they are regrouping. Hate to see all of that passion and energy go to waste.

Dan Furman
01-20-2011, 10:44 AM
Yeah, I noticed that too. Looks like it hasn't been touched since July of last year. Well, maybe they are regrouping. Hate to see all of that passion and energy go to waste.

To me, it was the wrong kind of passion, though. They were cheap, to start, and like I posted way back, there's kind of a Karma thing in business... you can't completely devalue other's skills and services (design and hosting, in this case), yet expect people to pay for yours. Even in the startup phase. You'll never go anywhere with that mindset. The basics (website/logo/etc) are not very expensive - any adult with a credit card can have a nice website. If you're not even willing to take that step, I don't like your chances at all. You're just not serious.

Second, they were following some online video guru, and using big companies that started from nothing as a guide (which is NOT the best model to follow). Inspiration is fine. But at some point, talk is cheap, and you need to just make some money. Instead of fiddling around with a logo and pointing everyone to an online video, make one of the programs that you want to offer.

Harold Mansfield
01-20-2011, 10:50 AM
I'm with you Dan. I didn't see it either ( their future). I doesn't take long before reality hits you in the face.

It reminds me of a Family Guy episode when Peter and the guys formed a band. They purchased clothes, instruments, got their look down, a cool band name and eventually got their first gig at a prison. But forgot the most important thing.

When they took the stage for the first time Quagmire counted down to start the first set, "1, 2, 3, 4........" And then it was quiet till the realization of the moment finally hit Peter and he exclaimed, "Oh my God, we don't know any songs!".

gregdbowen
01-23-2011, 01:26 PM
I am ok with mark of #1 - but don't really love the font of the 'four' it is paired with. It stands out on its own without the logotype, which is useful. However, using the numbers in the logo makes it seem a little generic - It can be better to use graphical shapes that relate to your product and services.

All of the marks are clean - and many aren't.

cbscreative
01-27-2011, 01:52 PM
I also see they kinda let the blog die.

Now anyone willing to read through this thread will find an actual case history. Of course we couldn't tell this guy anything while he was here touting his success, but now the record speaks for itself.

Harold Mansfield
01-27-2011, 03:33 PM
Reminds me of the Enron Rollercoaster Ride:
YouTube - The Simpsons - Enron's Ride of Broken Dreams. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ruzRE2uztiM&feature=related)