PDA

View Full Version : SEO Reading List



vangogh
07-14-2010, 04:09 PM
Yesterday Rand Fishkin published a post on SEOmoz, 6 Ways to Learn SEO (http://www.seomoz.org/blog/6-ways-to-learn-seo), that's mainly a reading list for learning SEO.

Rand defined several groups of SEO learners based on current skill level and then mentions which, guides, books, forums, etc are appropriate for each group.

I've read quite a few of the items Rand mentions and can attest to their quality. Thought for those of you out there looking to learn a little more about SEO it's a good post to read and bookmark for the resources it links to.

billbenson
07-14-2010, 07:20 PM
This will help my friend VG. Thanks for posting it.

vangogh
07-14-2010, 07:35 PM
Thought you might be one of those interested Bill. I haven't read all the stuff in the post, but I've definitely read some and I'm subscribed to most of those blogs.

brown.daniel66
09-22-2010, 09:26 AM
I new to SEO. As soon as I saw it, I bookmarked it. Thanks a ton for providing this priceless resource.

Spider
09-22-2010, 11:08 AM
I am getting the impressions that SEO has changed considerably over the past year - is that so? I know Google has ignored the Keyword meta tag for years, but it feels like there are more basic and more recent changes in effect. I don't feel I am getting relevant results any more, but I cannot put my finger on the cause.

Perhaps this is an impossible question but could anyone venture to list two or three fundamental changes that have occurred? XYZ doesn't work anymore - try ABC instead - type of thing....

vangogh
09-22-2010, 12:04 PM
It changes daily. Search engines update how their algorithm works and the industry tries to understand the changes. The basics really don't change though. It still boils down to keyword research, developing a search friendly site, creating great content, and getting other pages and sites to link back to yours. The details about how you go about some of those things may change, but if you learn the why of the basics they really don't.

For example with links the very basic concept is that a search engine sees a link as a vote or recommendation for web page. Over the years they've learned that some links aren't really an honest vote and they do what they can to not count that link. An easy example is forum signatures. Anyone can join a forum and add a signature, so is it really a vote by the forum for the page being linked to? Not really. On the other hand you've been posting content to at least one small business forum for years with a signature that points to a business related site. That should count for something so your link probably should count for something too. However when you consider how easy it is to spam forums and drop links all over the place you realize they shouldn't count for much.

All of that is really just common sense. I didn't attempt to reverse engineer the algorithm and I didn't spend hours researching the value of a forum link. I simply tried to think how I would see a link in a forum signature if I was building a search engine.

A few years ago all that might have mattered was that the link existed and so the advice might have been join lots of forums and posts as often and as quickly as you can to get as many links as possible. Today most SEOs would tell you those links aren't going to count much and you shouldn't be filling up forums with spam just to get the links. Even a few years ago though anyone who applied the common sense above would have realized what the true value of a forum link was or would become.

Much of the problems I see people have when tying to understand seo is that people get lost too much in the details. People stare intently at the tree and forget to step back and see the forest. The small details change all the time. The big picture doesn't.

When you're readings posts and article about seo try to think about the why. Why would a search engine want to count one link as a vote and not count another link? Why would they decide that one page should show up in the results for "keyword 1" while another page doesn't.

I think when you step back and think about seo more in the context of the same general marketing principles that applied before search engines existed and when you pull back from the details to understand the why of the big picture it helps a lot. It helps give that basic foundation of understanding. I also find if you can pretend you're the one who'd responsible for developing the algorithm and you think about what you would give more consideration to it also helps. Trying to think like a search engineer often works better than trying to research details about a specific tactic.

Spider
09-22-2010, 02:53 PM
Yes, I get all that, VG, and I basically agree but one thing you said runs contrary to my feeling --

...The small details change all the time. The big picture doesn't....It's the big picture that I see as having changed over the past year or so. And that is what I am asking about when I say, "I don't feel I am getting relevant results any more, but I cannot put my finger on the cause."

Perhaps I'm feeling something that no-one else does - and something that is perhaps not there.

vangogh
09-22-2010, 04:37 PM
When you say you aren't getting relevant results anymore do you mean as a searcher?

I think Google's results have been going downhill for years. I think they've been so focused on so many things outside of search that they've let the results slide. Some of it is Google wanting more of the social pie so they added things like real time search results, which were mainly Twitter posts. Most of those things I've found to be useless and so overall the quality of results went down for me.

Do you mind sharing one or two searches that aren't giving the most relevant results. I'll take a look and see if I can figure out what's going on.

Spider
09-22-2010, 06:01 PM
As I say, it's only a feeling. Cannot be specific. That Google 'Instant' thing is odd - they think they can give me relevant results and I haven't even finished typing in my search yet?

Trying to explain what I mean - if I search Google for 'business coach' the top 3 are about coaching rather than about a business coach. Only 5 results on the first page, none of the top 3, (and not counting the paid listings) are for a specific business coach, 4 seem more to do with coaching than being about a coach, one seems more about personal coaching and one is a news resource for business coaches.

Now, when I search for 'business coaching' the News for business coaching jumps from #11 to #4, and we have at #5 Images for business coaching. 4 sites are about named business coaches and 5 are about business coaching, plus a Wikipedia site about coaching in general from sports to business and divorce to speaking, and that personal coaching site again.

Such variation in results doesn't seem to me to be worthy of the description "relevant results."

Looking at it from the other side - SEO - how can I possibly optimize my site for 'business coach' when the first page results are only 40percent relevant to that exact term and none of the top 3 are relevant.

vangogh
09-22-2010, 07:46 PM
I think I understand. First I completely agree with you about Google Instant. I think it only makes things slower to find what I want. Look to the right of the search button. There's a link telling you it's on and you can turn it off. I did.

As far as you optimizing for a specific phrase yes that's changing, but it's been going on for more than the last year. For a few years now different people see different results for the same query. Google will show different results based on our location and personal searching history. The idea isn't so much to focus on the specific phrase "business coach" and instead focus on the theme business coach. You shouldn't be so much trying to rank for that one specific phrase. You want to rank for a variety of phrases all around the idea of being a business coach.

In fact many would say not to focus on ranking at all. What you're really after is traffic and even more the right kind of traffic. A lot of that traffic will cone from the long tail, those queries that are only typed in once or twice a month. They're usually much more likely to result in better traffic. They're easier to rank for. And the sheer number of them adds up. Google estimates that 50% of all queries are used once and only once each month.

It's also what I mean by the big picture. The detail is focusing on a specific phrase. The big picture is just making your site relevant and useful to anyone who might want to hire a business coach. You'll end up using lots of words and phrases people are searching for, but that keyword tools may not reveal.

As an example a few years ago I wrote a post about how to code a navigation bar. I didn't do any keyword research prior to writing the post. I just wrote what I hoped would be a good post. It's always ranked for some phrases and over the years the people who've read the post liked it and linked to it. Little by little as the links grew the post started ranking for more and more phrases and more and more generic phrase. Now it's consistently one of the most popular pages on my blog for search traffic.

Over the last month about 5,500 people landed on that post after seeing it listed in search results. They used over 1,700 different phrases to find it. Most queries use words like html, css, navigation, menu, and bar, which are all words I happened to use in the post. The title of the post is "Simple Navigation Bar With CSS And (x)HTML"

I never specifically optimized it for anything, but over the years as I've written other posts that use phrases like "navigation bar" I added a link to the post on the phrase. I also started writing posts on a similar topic like creating navigation for WordPress and link back to that original article.

That's all basic stuff and none of that is ever going to change regardless of how search engines change their algorithm. All I did was write what a post to the best of my ability and noticing people liking it wrote more similar posts. I link between them because it stands to reason if you like one you'll like the other. I didn't specifically do keyword research for any of the posts and I didn't do a lot to actively optimize any, other than knowing what words to use to link between posts.

When you create content that works for marketing in general you end up doing pretty well. It's ironic, but often if you don't try so hard to optimize things to some specific tactic you end up doing a better job optimizing for it.

Spider
09-22-2010, 09:13 PM
Well, that is good news. I never did enjoy the time spent studying who was searching for what and how many times they did it.

Cross that activity off the list of Things To Do!

vangogh
09-23-2010, 02:46 AM
Well I don't want to discourage you from doing keyword research. It's still valuable and I do use still research keywords. It is still important to know what people search for and especially what words they're using as opposed to what you normally use. I mostly want to say not to get too obsessed with one or two phrases and think everything depends on that.

The research can still point you to different keyword themes you can then turn into articles or series of articles or new sections and there's nothing wrong with going back to a post and tweaking it so it ranks better. I bet I could improve how that post I mentioned ranks for some phrases and pull even more traffic.

It's more that you probably don't need to get bogged down in the numbers and get too focused on one or two phrases at the exclusion of others.

Here's a good PDF on keyword research and selection (http://www.polepositionmarketing.com/library/ebooks/keyword-research.pdf). The link is directly to the PDF. It's not too long and it does a good job explaining what keyword research is all about and how to go about doing it.

billbenson
09-23-2010, 08:48 PM
As I say, it's only a feeling. Cannot be specific. That Google 'Instant' thing is odd - they think they can give me relevant results and I haven't even finished typing in my search yet?

Trying to explain what I mean - if I search Google for 'business coach' the top 3 are about coaching rather than about a business coach. Only 5 results on the first page, none of the top 3, (and not counting the paid listings) are for a specific business coach, 4 seem more to do with coaching than being about a coach, one seems more about personal coaching and one is a news resource for business coaches.

Now, when I search for 'business coaching' the News for business coaching jumps from #11 to #4, and we have at #5 Images for business coaching. 4 sites are about named business coaches and 5 are about business coaching, plus a Wikipedia site about coaching in general from sports to business and divorce to speaking, and that personal coaching site again.

Such variation in results doesn't seem to me to be worthy of the description "relevant results."

Looking at it from the other side - SEO - how can I possibly optimize my site for 'business coach' when the first page results are only 40percent relevant to that exact term and none of the top 3 are relevant.

I took a quick glance at your site spider and didn't find a page optimized for 'business coach' It seems to me this is an opportunity to write a page that is optimized exactly for that phrase and only that phrase. Only put business coach in the title tag, no other words In your title tags you put a variety of other terms. Consider having your H1 contain the phrase with some other stuff. Have it appear in the text as appropriate as well. Not spammy, just sneak it in there a time or two.

Spider
09-23-2010, 09:55 PM
I was rather looking at it from the search side, Bill, but it would be interesting to do as you suggest. Still, with half (39 of the first 80) of the results not even having the term "business coach" in the title, I'm a beginning to believe that the title is becoming less important than it was.

billbenson
09-23-2010, 11:09 PM
I would draw a different conclusion. Since you are getting results for non relevant coaches ie football coach, google is seeing the site and not sure what the site or page is about. If the coaching sites that are out there don't tell G what the site / page is about G needs to guess to a large degree. You need to tell G what the page is about without spamming.

I'm from the school that you build each page on a site for a particular keyphrase and only that key phrase. That may be impractical and may affect other things like the flow or navigation of the site, but it is why I want to start adding high quality keyphrase specific pages to my site.

vangogh
09-24-2010, 12:20 AM
Frederick I wouldn't take it as a sign that the page title isn't important. If anything it's a sign that most business coaches aren't doing seo right and it's an opportunity for you. Regardless of whether or not the pages are using "business coach" in the page title, Google still needs to rank them in some way. Google looks at over 200 different signals to determine which page ranks first. If most sites aren't using the phrase in the page title then it all evens out and the determination for ranking is something else.

With seo you can't look at one specific thing and if it is or isn't there think it's the reason a page does or doesn't rank. Think of two teams playing sports. One phrase common to all sports is good defense beats good offense. However if two teams are playing and neither has a good defense then it'll be a high scoring game and it'll be the offenses that decide who wins. That doesn't change that a good defense beats a good offense. It's simply in that game there wasn't a good defense present.

If there aren't a lot of good page titles present it doesn't mean a good page title isn't important. It just means the winner was determined by something other than the page title. It also means that someone who does write a good page title stands a very good chance and beating all those other players.

Spider
09-24-2010, 09:17 AM
I took one of my existing pages (not the home page) that had "business coach" in the title along with some other terms and changed that to "business coach" only. I also added "business coach" to my H1. Just as Bill had suggested. These were the only changes I made.

In the light of what you both have said, it will be interesting to see how long it takes for the page to move up the ranks for the search term, "business coach."

vangogh
09-24-2010, 01:29 PM
I'm not sure how significant those changes will be. If you already had "business coach" in the title, removing the other words might help, but might not. It would depend on what the rest of those words were and where "business coach" was located in the title. H(x) tags don't seem to be all that important any more. I would think they count and do carry some weight in the overall algorithm, but I wouldn't expect to see a huge change in the ranking because of them.

This is what I was talking about in not focusing too much on any single detail. You might see absolutely no change in how that page ranks for the phrase and come to the conclusion that neither page titles or H1s are important. However you really couldn't draw that conclusion. Again there are more than 200 different factors determining where your page will rank. You've adjusted what are possibly two of them. That means there are still 198+ you haven't account for. It also doesn't account for your competition adjusting those same two things you did or any of those 198+ other things or how well they were doing those things before.

Don't get too caught up in trying to analyze how well a change to one or two specific things does or doesn't work and then draw sweeping conclusions.

As an example pretend you're going to race Usain Bolt. He's a lot faster than you and you know you need to become faster if you want to win the race. You train and you train. You learn how to maximize how fast you run in every way imaginable. You probably still lose the race. He's simply faster than you are. You can't then draw the conclusion that all your training was worthless. You're most likely faster than you used to be. You can probably win a lot more races than you could previously. You just can't beat Usain Bolt because he's still faster than you.

Same thing with seo. You can do a lot of things that do make your page better in the eyes of search engines for a certain phrase. It doesn't necessarily mean it's now better than the pages that were ranking ahead of you. Maybe all you've done is closed the gap a bit.

billbenson
09-24-2010, 02:53 PM
It does strike me though, Steve, that if results for "business coach" without quotes is bringing up results for sports coaches etc on top, there are no pages out there or sites that google strongly associates with that term. By being more direct about that exact term (I don't mean spam) it does say to google that this is what this page is about. Some intra site linking and a couple of quality links from authority sites and it should help.

Spider
09-24-2010, 05:03 PM
It was just an easy-to-do experiment, just to see if those 2 items are particularly important. From what I understand, those other 198 other factors are less important - a tiny bit less or a lot less? Who knows - and, as you all keep reminding me, it keeps changing. I won't hold it against you if nothing changes, but you can have the credit if it wins me #1 spot.

That and $3.50 will buy you a Starbucks coffee!

vangogh
09-24-2010, 05:13 PM
I agree. I'd guess most business coach sites aren't doing seo all that well. All I'm saying is that if Frederick is already using the phrase "business coach" in his page title and assuming the title isn't overly long, I doubt removing a few extra words is going to overcome all the sports coaches. You probably aren't going to see a huge difference between

Business Coach
Business Coach in Houston | Frederic Pearce

Now I see Frederick's home page says LIFE COACH, Business Coach and Personal mentor - Frederick Pearce, Houston, Texas. If I were specifically targeting the page for the phrase "business coach" I would remove the life coach and person mentor words or at the least move the business coach part to the front. I realize this isn't the page Frederick was going to change. Just using it as an example.

One other point is if every page on the site included "business coach" then all the pages are competing with each other. The sum total could be less traffic for the phrase compared to one or two pages targeting the phrase.

When I said I wouldn't expect to see a lot of change in ranking it's because it could be other factors that are weighing more heavily here. Maybe the sports coaches have so many more links pointing at them so any time coach is in a query they dominate. Looking at the results for business coach without quotes in Google, the top 10 sites all use the words business and coach in their page title. Frederick's home page is showing on page 10 for me (95 or 96). Most of the pages around his are also using both words, though not the exact phrase.

My choice for the home page title would be Business Coach in Houston Texas | Frederick Pearce assuming that's the page to target. Since it is the one page ranking for the phrase it's probably the best one to work on. Another thing to try would be to get a few links directed to the home page of the site that use the exact phrase in the anchor text.

Frederick why not change the link in your signature to Business Coach and Mentor. That will get you some exact anchor text. If you want to test which has a greater effect though make only one change at a time.

billbenson
09-25-2010, 07:08 PM
One other point is if every page on the site included "business coach" then all the pages are competing with each other. The sum total could be less traffic for the phrase compared to one or two pages targeting the phrase.

Which is why I said (I think it was earlier in this thread) to write a page for each key phrase and that page should target only that key phrase. Again, I also realize that is not always practical. I would think that a larger site would benefit Fredericks SERPS.

Spider
09-25-2010, 11:54 PM
You see - this is why I am so put out by Google. It has become a total crap-shoot!

I just this minute searched for 'business coach,' and my site came up #1. But not the page I modified - it would be too early to expect anything from such a small change. No, this is the old home page, completely unaltered, no changes for probably a year or so. A couple of days ago, I searched for 'business coach' and I couldn't find my site at all on Google. VG says he searched Google for 'business coach' and found my home page on page 10.

Now, today, it ranks #1, and although the search term 'business coach' appears in the title, it is not most prominent - title reads: LIFE COACH, Business Coach and Personal Mentor - Frederick Pearce, Houston, Texas.

If the results are going to be such a crapshoot, it makes a whole mockery of SEO.

Just another reason not to use Google - but I cannot ignore Google because the rest of the world uses it. It's just so damned frustrating!


ADDED: This morning, I am still at #1 for Business coach and now top of page.2. for Business coaching. Still not showing for Life coach.

Business Attorney
09-26-2010, 12:27 PM
When I search Google for business coach, I get the same result as vangogh - page 10. You know that Google seems like a monolith search engine but it actually is a number of data centers and each can give slightly varying results.

There are various tools out there that will check your keyword ranking for the various data centers. I ran the test on one (seochat.com) and got the following results:


Results for: frederickpearce . com - business coach

Data Center Position
66.249.93.104 Not in top 100
64.233.179.104 Not in top 100
216.239.51.104 Not in top 100
66.102.9.99 Not in top 100
66.102.9.147 Not in top 100
66.102.9.104 Not in top 100
64.233.161.83 Not in top 100
64.233.183.103 Not in top 100
64.233.189.104 Not in top 100
64.233.187.99 Not in top 100
64.233.187.104 Not in top 100
64.233.185.99 Not in top 100

Do you use Google Webmaster Tools? Unlike other stats software that will tell you what key words searches people used to arrive at your site, Google will tell your site's average ranking for various queries, as well as how many times your site appeared in the search engine results, how often the link to your site was clicked and the click through rate.

Here is an example for a website on stamp collecting (http://www.stampcollectinginformation.com:):

http://www.stampcollectinginformation.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/stampcollectinginformation1.jpg

You can sort to find the query that yields the best click through rate (or worst). You can find queries where your average position may be just off the first page and, with just a little effort, may be able to push it on to the first page. You can find queries that you may do well at but are so infrequent that it may not be worth your time to tinker with the SEO. Use your imagination.

It is, in my mind, one of the best free tools you can use.

Spider
09-26-2010, 02:14 PM
Well, this is most odd. I am surprised you found so many Google databases on which I did not appear at all. I just searched for the same terms you did - frederickpearce . com - business coach - and I had every single one of the first 50 results, and 68 of the first 72 results were all to my site or sites that link to my site. I have no idea which Google database that was, but I cannot see how you managed to find twelve Google databases that had no results at all in the first 100.

Which only adds to my realization that Google is worse than useless. I wish I could ignore it, but too many people rely on Google for their search.

I certainly don't use it for searching.

Business Attorney
09-26-2010, 03:50 PM
Frederick, I am sorry my previous post was not clear. The search was just for business coach. The site it was looking for in the list was www. frederickpearce . com (without the spaces, of course, but I have to leave them out in this post to prevent the page title appearing instead of the URL). Adding frederickpearce to the search would almost certainly turn up your site #1 on any search engine.

In any event, the Google data center checker I used may be malfunctioning. I tried my limitedliabilitycompanycenter . com site with a keyword that is almost always #1 and it came up "Not in top 100" at many data centers as well:


Data Center Position
66.249.93.104 Not in top 100
64.233.179.104 1
216.239.51.104 Not in top 100
66.102.9.99 Not in top 100
66.102.9.147 Not in top 100
66.102.9.104 Not in top 100
64.233.161.83 Not in top 100
64.233.183.103 1
64.233.189.104 1
64.233.187.99 Not in top 100
64.233.187.104 Not in top 100
64.233.185.99 Not in top 100

Using the search term I did, it would be virtually impossible for the term not to be in the top 100 at 9 of 12 data centers.

When looking at your own search results, keep in mind that our do-no-evil friend Google tailors the search results to your own computer. The more you check on your own site, the higher it will appear in your personalized search results. A checker at Scroogle (http://www.Scroogle.org) allows you to check Google without the bias that comes from Google placing cookies on your computer each time you click through to your own sites.

vangogh
09-27-2010, 10:32 AM
You see - this is why I am so put out by Google. It has become a total crap-shoot!

Not at all. It's a matter of understanding what's going on. We can't know exactly what's happening, but more often than not we can figure out why one site is ranking over another. Keep in mind you're trying a different query than the one you originally tried. Why would you expect to see the same results for two different queries.

If you're including your name in the search then you should show up #1. How many Frederick Pearce's are there? And how many are also business coaches with websites? Also if you're adding .com then you should always rank #1. That can be explained solely by Google showing a preference to what's called exact match searches, meaning the query is an exact match for the domain.

Most of the time if there's a domain that exactly matches the search it will rank well. It won't automatically be #1, but it will get some boost based on the exact match. It makes a lot of sense if you think about it, since there's a good chance someone is looking for the domain with the exact match query and it stands to reason that even if they aren't the domain is still highly relevant.

Spider
09-27-2010, 11:07 AM
...Keep in mind you're trying a different query than the one you originally tried. Why would you expect to see the same results for two different queries...Correction: I am using exactly the same search term - business coach. First time around I couldn't find my site at all in the first 100. You found it on page 10, you said. Then I searched again and came up at #1. This over the course of two or three days and all for the same query.

Incidently. this morning I cleared my cookies and I am still at #1 for business coach. Plus, now, the newspaper article about me has jumped from beyond-100 to #10 (different domain.)

vangogh
09-27-2010, 01:15 PM
Another possibility is that you're logged into something Google and you're viewing the personalized search. If you've often searched and clicked to your own site in the past then Google would more likely show your site higher in the results than they would to David or myself.

Google does show different results to different people based on several things. Location is one. An easy example is someone searching the word "football." Someone searching football in the U.S. is probably looking for something different than someone searching football in the U.K. Another example might be a search for "pizza." You and I would probably want different results since more than likely we're looking for something local. Geography wouldn't explain the differences with the business coach search unless you're also using words like Houston or Texas. More like it's personalized search that's leading to the different results.

Spider
09-27-2010, 02:57 PM
I wouldn't be in the least surpised if Google has an unauthorized profile of me (this being Google we are discussing) - I have been on the internet for a rather long time - and I can assure you, having distrusted Google since my days as a search engine owner, that I have never bought anything, joined anything, signed up for anything, subscribed to anything, set up any account, nor participated in anything called Personalized search or anything else with the name Google attached to it. I have totally avoided Google all these years. So, no - personalized search should (should, being the operative word) not be an explanation.

(Now, I suppose, when Google gets wind of this post, my #1 ranking will disappear just as quickly as it appeared!)

Business Attorney
09-27-2010, 03:11 PM
Geography wouldn't explain the differences with the business coach search unless you're also using words like Houston or Texas. More like it's personalized search that's leading to the different results.

When I did the search, while there were business coaches from all over in the results I got from Google, it did seem like the results Google gave me contained a much greater number of websites with a Chicago connection than I would have expected if the results were geography-neutral. Since it is a personal service, is there any reason why Google wouldn't assume that your are more likely to want someone who is local? Clearly services like plumber, piano teacher, dentist, personal trainer and hair stylist are services that someone would want in person. It looks to me like Google applies the same logic to services like marketing consultant, attorney and, yes, business coach.

If that is the case, then even if Frederick went to a local library and used a computer that he had never used to look at his site, Google might show him #1 because Google will know that the library is in Houston. Houston is not mentioned too often on Frederick's website but it may be enough for Google to draw the connection (they are pretty darn thorough).

Local Trifecta
09-27-2010, 10:54 PM
I will just echo Vangogh's comment ... Rand is amazing (as is the SEOmoz blog) ... also worth watching is their friday whiteboard series. I attended their conference in Seattle the other day and most of the presentations were fairly good though basic ... some were AMAZING.

vangogh
09-28-2010, 02:39 AM
Since it is a personal service, is there any reason why Google wouldn't assume that your are more likely to want someone who is local?

It absolutely makes sense. I just don't see that big of a jump. He's basically moving from mid 90s to #1. That seems too much for a geo explanation only. I suppose it's possible, but it seems like something else is going on.

Frederick do you use any Google products at all? Ever had a gmail account of used Analytics? Anything? Personalized search isn't something you sign up for. Assuming you were signed into Google for any reason you'd have personalized search turned on. Actually now that I think about you don't even need to be signed in. Google changed that late last year. However they say it's a cookie that triggers it and you mentioned clearing your cookies. I'm still thinking it's personalized results you're seeing.

Is anyone else here from the Houston area? Maybe we can get someone else to try the search and see what results they get. Frederick can you grab a screen shot of the results page by any chance and attach it here? Maybe seeing some of the other results on the page and comparing to what David and I see would shed some light on what's going on.


I attended their conference in Seattle the other day

Sounds like you had a good time. I used to comment a lot more on SEOmoz, but didn't have the time to keep commenting.

Spider
09-28-2010, 09:35 AM
I have never used anything of Google's that required me to sign in for it. I use Google's public search engine from time to time to see what the world is getting. For my own searches I use Ixquick. I have used Google's free Keyword tool that required an image to be typed into a box for access. I watch the occasional YouTube clip (G owns YouTube, I think.) None of these things require signing in or logging onto.

I have never owned any web-based e-mail account, and certainly not gmail. Never been a member of any Google group (whatever they are!) I can think of no occasion that I have entered my e-mail address and created a password for anything associated with Google. I would have exited immediately had I ever been presented with such an option.

This is rather interesting, that you feel the results I am getting are based on some personal information Google has about me as an individual (not just unpersonalized mass data they use for advertising purposes.) Is there something I can do - search for some odd-ball subject, perhaps - to see if G start slanting serps to suit that? What if I search a few times for 'backyard wetlands'? I have an obscure website about how I created a mini-wetland in my backyard because of a drainage problem I was having.

Spider
09-30-2010, 05:15 PM
Well, as was expected, a search for - business coach - finds my site down to #92 again. From beyone 100, to #96, to #1, to #92 all in a few days. Funny, that!!!!!

I searched for - backyard wetlands - and the site I mentioned is not in the first 200 at Google. I had to type in the name of my street to get it to appear at all and finally, by using the singular term - wetland - it came in at #1. Now, I'll search for it a few times over the next few days and see what happens.

Harold Mansfield
09-30-2010, 08:24 PM
I have never used anything of Google's that required me to sign in for it. I use Google's public search engine from time to time to see what the world is getting. For my own searches I use Ixquick. I have used Google's free Keyword tool that required an image to be typed into a box for access. I watch the occasional YouTube clip (G owns YouTube, I think.) None of these things require signing in or logging onto.

I have never owned any web-based e-mail account, and certainly not gmail. Never been a member of any Google group (whatever they are!) I can think of no occasion that I have entered my e-mail address and created a password for anything associated with Google. I would have exited immediately had I ever been presented with such an option.


You know...it's kind of hard to have success on the web if you are only sticking in your toes to test the temperature. I'm not saying that you need to divulge all kinds of personal information, but at some point you will need to get into the web 100 percent if you really want to work it successfully. The best way to learn how things work is to use them.

Being that you won't sign in for anything, and you've said previously that you have no interest in using an all purpose anonymous email address for BS stuff, that means that you don't even use the tools available to you to help you with your website.

If you won't sign into Google that means that you don't have a webmaster account, don't have a site map submitted, don't use Google analytics and all of the other webmaster tools that Google affords you for free.

Since the Big G controls 80 percent of the worlds internet traffic, don't you think (as a webmaster) that it may be important to be a part of it ?

Spider
09-30-2010, 10:12 PM
Google is not the be all and end all of the internet. The internet was around long before Google and will survive Google. And I do not accept that Google CONTROLS 80 percent of the world's traffic. Plus, one does not have to succumb to Google adoration to use the internet. Google is a small player in a huge electronic environment. It might be bigger than many but it is still a small player in this vastness we call "The Internet." Also, you may believe that Google is the only supplier of analytical software and webmaster tools but I do not.

I am happy for you that Google makes up so much of your world and that you are clearly content with the service they provide. My world is made up differently. I am sure that we are both right for what we need.

BTW, that quote you pulled was relevant to a particular discussion regarding the rapidly changing serps positioning of a single website on a single search engine, and not meant to be indicative of my entire world view.

billbenson
09-30-2010, 10:52 PM
Well, if you want to make a buck on the internet today and you rely on search engines for most or all of your traffic, you need Google. My site was down twice this week and my phone just stopped ringing. If I loose my G traffic, I'm out of business. So if you have that sort of business model, you better play their game well.

As far as Google Analytics goes, there are still webmasters out there that do link trading. They just do very carefully in small circles. These webmasters don't want to give google any more information than they can and, as such would steer clear of Google Analytics.

As far as G controlling 80% (or whatever) of the traffic, I'd again qualify that to search engine traffic. But you can't ignore the fact that they almost certainly have the largest database in the world on computer users. Whether they use that information well or not can be reflected in the SERPS, but they try to store any and all information they can. That gives them a lot of control.

Spider
10-01-2010, 12:21 AM
Oh, I'll take the traffic Google sends me. I'm just not going to bow down to the Google altar, is all!

Spider
10-01-2010, 12:32 AM
This is interesting - at 4.15pm my site had sunk to #92. At 10.30p, I searched for - business coach - and found my site at #98. Now, at 11.30pm it is at #92 again.

I wonder what it will be in the morning!

Business Attorney
10-01-2010, 12:33 AM
I do not accept that Google CONTROLS 80 percent of the world's traffic.

First of all, I am sure you are right Frederick if you are talking about the world's traffic, since there are Yandex in Russia, Baidu in China and many other smaller foreign language search engines that spider my websites as often as Google and have a large share of their own domestic markets.

Even with respect to the United States, the Nielsen Company reported (http://blog.nielsen.com/nielsenwire/online_mobile/bing-overtakes-yahoo-as-the-2-search-engine/) two weeks ago:


For the first time, MSN/Windows Live/Bing Search overtook Yahoo! as the #2 search engine in the U.S. with a 13.9% share of search volume in August 2010, a 0.25% delta increase from the previous month. Although Google saw little change in its month-over-month search volume, it still dominates the search market, accounting for 65% of all U.S. searches.

But is the world really your relevant market? How many clients from China or Russia are looking for an American business coach. And even the Nielsen figures at 65% peg Google at nearly 5 times the market share of either of its major competitors.

As for me, Google generates more than 80% of my search engine traffic on my LLC site and, to me, that is the only percentage that matters.

Yes, Google grabs as much information as it can, both to yield relevant search results (which I like) and to deliver relevant ads, which is a little spooky. If I go to a fishing website, then to a movie website and then to a news website, seeing AdSense ads for fishing gear following me around the internet on every site does bug me a little, but I am fairly immune to it now.

Spider
10-03-2010, 10:25 PM
This is interesting - at 4.15pm my site had sunk to #92. At 10.30p, I searched for - business coach - and found my site at #98. Now, at 11.30pm it is at #92 again.
I wonder what it will be in the morning!It was at the same spot in the morning but now, a couple of days later, it's back up to #2 again!

Such variation is not adhering me to consistency in Googles' results. Nor inducing me to put any faith in them.

billbenson
10-03-2010, 11:23 PM
I just did a search for business coach and got a lot of spam sort of get rich quick long one page sites as well as some local search sites. Seems you are competing with get rich quick sites and local searches for top spots on this one. One thing that may be hurting you is your using your location of Houston on your site. I don't know, but it would appear that you are putting yourself into the local rather than national SERPS arena buy doing that. See if anybody else has comments on that. If that is the case, it will likely take quite a while for google to emphasize you in the national SERPS rather than the Houston search. I'm still guessing your site is confusing to Google which is why the radical movement. At this point I suspect the whole site is effecting this, even though you tried some changes on the one page. Google doesn't usually react quickly to changes anyway.

Spider
10-04-2010, 08:45 AM
That's interesting, Bill! I don't get any spammy sites, not on the first few pages, anyway, and no other Houston coach sites, that I can discern - most avoided stating where they lived but, after some digging, I found Los Angeles, San Fransisco, Florida, Canada or Sweden, all on the first page of results.

I do slip in 'Houston' somewhere on most of my pages in that it pretty well guarantees me mention on the first results page for any coaching related search that includes Houston. Or, it used to. With the current state of inconsistency, I don't know what works and what doesn't work with Google anymore.

Harold Mansfield
10-04-2010, 09:14 AM
Oh, I'll take the traffic Google sends me. I'm just not going to bow down to the Google altar, is all!

It's not bowing to the Google alter.
Google is merely an internet search engine. The data they compile mostly amounts to how you use the internet and you don't even have to give them your real name. If you want to hide your internet usage, you can always buy a $40 program like Ghost Surf and search via proxy. You ISP knows far more about your habits than Google does.

Your whole life tons of organizations, companies and the government has amassed far more personal information about you and your personal habits than Google can ever do. From how you use your credit cards, how may kids you have, where you live, how much money you have in the bank, your relatives and friends, medical history..even your cell phone company can tell your real time location.

The amount of lifetime personal information that Experian, Trans Union, and Equifax have on you (and your friends and relatives) alone pales in comparison to something arbitrary like how you use the internet, and they have been compiling this information since you were born. If you have a Social security number, there are databases of personal information about your entire life that were being compiled since way before Google was ever invented.

Unless you live totally off of the grid and have never worked, never received medical treatment, don't deal with any financial institutions, never had any utilities on your name, never had a mortgage or lease, and don't pay taxes, your information is out there and it's far more detailed than how you surf when you are using the internet through a search engine.

You don't have to use Google, or even participate and use it's free webmaster tools, but "hiding" makes more sense because you don't like the product. Compared to all of the other information that you have given up both willingly and unwillingly over a lifetime, getting upset because they compile information about search habits seems pretty unimportant in comparison.

You are in control of how much information about you is online. You can use the internet to it's fullest extent and never use your real name. "They" can only know what you let them know. If it bothers you that much, It's really not that hard to control.

Spider
10-04-2010, 10:31 AM
It's not so much what people know about me that matters - I really don't have any secrets - it's how they use that information and how inaccurate information might be used to my detriment. I guess I have the same mindless distrust of Google that many people have of Microsoft.

Harold Mansfield
10-04-2010, 10:49 AM
It's not so much what people know about me that matters - I really don't have any secrets - it's how they use that information and how inaccurate information might be used to my detriment. I guess I have the same mindless distrust of Google that many people have of Microsoft.

But you have been trusting Experian, Trans Union, and Equifax you whole life and they make it extremely difficult to even know what is being said about you and they have far more information about your life than how you surf the internet. Even worse, you don't even have a choice of what they have compiled about you. They have been give carte' blanche.

I guess it's human nature to be uncomfortable when others have the ability to compile information about you, but in the grand scheme of things, it's really peanuts compared to what's really cataloged about your life. It's really easy for anyone to compile an accurate time line of the last 50 years of your life that has nothing to do with the internet.

I went through this a while back...about how anonymous I wanted to be online, compared to wanting to use the internet to it's full potential to be found for potential business and decided that I can't do both. I'm either in, or not.
There are many things that you can find out about me online but I have gone through great lengths to create my own information so that it is all business related. I control what is out there, or at least I have populated the web enough so that the stuff I want to be seen comes up first.

My name is out there, but I have also chosen not to associate that name with an image. I use a proxy phone number. I have many, many email addresses. I use a P.O box for my domain registrations. I don't have any personal profiles with too much information on them. And when I don't want SE's tracking my usage I use a proxy or simply sign out and surf anonymously.

People give up a lot of information on their own, they don't need Google...Where they live, their birthday, their spouse and children's name. Where they work, used to work and went to school. What year they graduated. What they purchase. What kind of car they have. They announce when they are going or are on vacation. It's never ending.

For most people, the only thing you need to steal their identity or rob them is their Facebook and Twitter profile.

vangogh
10-04-2010, 11:53 AM
Such variation is not adhering me to consistency in Googles' results. Nor inducing me to put any faith in them.

Google's results aren't meant to be exactly the same each and every time you visit. What you're seeing is often quite natural. Results can vary for any number of reasons. For example new pages tend to rank well initially before dropping back in the results or one day a certain topic is relevant to some news story so it ranks better before dropping back. Also consider that the signals for each page are always changing. One page acquires a few links, another loses them, etc.

By the way I tried one of the AdWords tools a couple of days ago that lets you search as though you were in a different location of your choosing. I searched to see what results would look like if I were in Houston and they were pretty much consistent with what I saw earlier. Your page was in the mid 90s. It seems to me the only real inconsistency is when you personally have seen it ranking in the top few spots and I'm still thinking there's some kind of personalization thing happening there. You don't need to be signed into a Google account anymore to get personalized results. It's the only thing I can think to explain why you and you alone will at times see your page ranking in the top few results.