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Harold Mansfield
07-12-2010, 11:57 PM
After doing client pages that look better than mine...actually I didn't really have a business page at all..I'm trying to step it up a notch.

I'm hoping it to serve as both an example and be functional.

Couple things are bothering me:

On the "About Me" page..is the "Hello" graphic too much ? and at the bottom..should the form be on the left or the right?

Second...is having 2 forms redundant, even though they have different functions? or should I combine them into one form or a contact page?
Also, am I over-killing the phone number? It's seems like it's too many places.

Interested in some opinions.

Facebook.com/HaroldMansfield (http://www.facebook.com/pages/HaroldMansfieldcom/131469863554791?v=app_4949752878)

Spider
07-13-2010, 09:08 AM
Just popped over there to see and took a quick look through. Frankly, I thought the About me page was redundant. You said (or could have said) everything on the Info page. That goes for the Consulting and LinkedIn pages, too.

This is social NETWORKING. When you meet someone at a networking event, all you want from them is a brief explanation of their business - the 30-second version. One does not expect a 15-minute presentation. Besides, I thnk social networking is about getting to know the person - not what they say about themselves but who they show themselves to be and how they conduct themselves. I went to your Wall to discover that.

I would have been more impressed with a link to your website on your Info page than dropping me straight into the sales pitch.

Sorry, but you did ask!


BTW - Did I say how good the page looks? I didn't but should have. It certainly shows your skill. It's how you have used that good work that leaves me cold.

Harold Mansfield
07-13-2010, 09:32 AM
Thanks Spider, I knew I could count on you to be frank.
I can definitely agree that the copy on the about page , particularly the first 2 paragraphs seem to be repeating themselves.
I also agree with the Linked In thing. I never really liked the way it was formatted anyway and really needed to hear that it was really unnecessary. I have no problem ditching it.

I have to disagree about your take on Social Networking, at least for the purposes of a FB Business page. I don't find that people want to know me. They want to know what I know how to do. If I can help them. and how much it will cost.

With the 2 different pages I was trying to show examples, particularly with use of forms..since everyone wants a form, or newsletter opt in on their page these days.

I can see where I could combine the 2 , but, I really wanted to break it up into 2 pages. I don't think people expect to see too much information on a FB page, hopefully just enough to entice them to take action or visit the main site.

I found with my website that when I eased into it and put down a bunch of fluff and filler with a bunch of buzz words.. that nothing happened and when I changed it to getting straight to the point.." I do this. This, and this. And I do it like this"...the phone rang more...and people were ready to take action when they called, rather than the "I just called because I had some questions" kind of calls.

I actually put it out on Sunday and did the whole "Invite your friends" to join thing..and Monday morning I got 2 calls for work to do FB pages from those invites..so something about it is working, but I agree I could clean up the copy.

Thanks.
Edited:
I forgot to ask. when you go to a FB business page, what do you expect to see? Or what do you want to see?

Edited again:
Just scheduled a 1 hour consultation off of the page so I obviously have something right.

But I would like to fix what isn't right, so fire away with any other suggestions.

KristineS
07-13-2010, 01:11 PM
There's a lot going on when you hit that page, and I'm not sure it's getting you where you need to go. I agree with Frederick, it does look nice, but it's kind of overwhelming. Plus, I have to disagree with your contention that when people hit a Facebook business page they aren't interested in the person. People like to know who's behind the business, particularly on a social networking site. Unless you're some huge conglomerate like Coca-Cola or something, a personal touch may not be a bad idea.

Frankly, to me this looks almost more like a website than a Facebook page, and that's not a good thing. One of the downsides of using social media for business purposes is that people are getting tired of being constantly sold. Social media is still about making personal connections if possible. If you're constantly selling at people and not talking to them, you may have a problem.

That's just my opinion of course, but I feel pretty strongly about it.

Harold Mansfield
07-13-2010, 01:28 PM
There's a lot going on when you hit that page, and I'm not sure it's getting you where you need to go. I agree with Frederick, it does look nice, but it's kind of overwhelming. Plus, I have to disagree with your contention that when people hit a Facebook business page they aren't interested in the person. People like to know who's behind the business, particularly on a social networking site. Unless you're some huge conglomerate like Coca-Cola or something, a personal touch may not be a bad idea.

Frankly, to me this looks almost more like a website than a Facebook page, and that's not a good thing. One of the downsides of using social media for business purposes is that people are getting tired of being constantly sold. Social media is still about making personal connections if possible. If you're constantly selling at people and not talking to them, you may have a problem.

That's just my opinion of course, but I feel pretty strongly about it.

So what do you suggest? I already have a personal page (http://www.facebook.com/HaroldMansfield) and the whole purpose was to separate the 2. Maybe not have "About me" as the Landing page?
I can hear where you are coming from, but this isn't a "Social Networking" page. It's for business. I'm not looking to make friends with it.

I actually feel just the opposite. I tell my clients to separate their personal profile from business because the spill over could be damaging...you don't want clients listening in on your personal stuff with your friends...so how personal should a business page be? If people want to know me personally, they can visit my personal profile...but I don't want potential clients there...that was the whole reason for doing a separate page, I noticed clients joining my profile and I didn't want that.

I looked at a lot of business pages and I don't see anything different on those pages, than what I am doing. Some of the ones listed as "Good Ones" are all promotional pages. Promoting products or services. I don't understand the difference. Why should my business page be personal?

I'm not resisting, I'm just looking for what kinds of things you would rather see.

Spider
07-13-2010, 05:04 PM
I think Facebook have made a mistake in allowing such blatant business pages. I can see a business page for someone who already has a personal page and let the business page be an extension of that. Doing as they have done, with completely separate business pages, they are introducing too much commerce into a social setting.

To me, that is like going to a party and meeting someone who immediately springs into a sales pitch -- as opposed to - going to a party, meeting someone, talking 'small talk' for a while, the inevitable question, "What do you do?", the exchange of busines cards and later contact. When I step into a social setting and someone I meet immediately starts trying to pitch their product or service, I leave them, often not very politely. I didn't go to the party to buy a product, anymore than I go to Facebook to buy a product.

But just as similarly, when I go to a business premises to buy something or enquire about something, I don't want the salesman asking about my family, and so on. I have had to tell more than one over-friendly salesperson that I didn't come to find a friend, I came to get some information about their products.

(It's quite fun to watch their face when, having told them my name is Pearce, and they ask my first name and I tell them, "Mr.")

It seems to me, much business is done these days friends dealing with friends. If you want to keep your business life and personal life separate (and I have no problem with that) then Facebook is the wriong place to do it.

Harold Mansfield
07-13-2010, 06:00 PM
I think Facebook have made a mistake in allowing such blatant business pages. I can see a business page for someone who already has a personal page and let the business page be an extension of that. Doing as they have done, with completely separate business pages, they are introducing too much commerce into a social setting.

To me, that is like going to a party and meeting someone who immediately springs into a sales pitch -- as opposed to - going to a party, meeting someone, talking 'small talk' for a while, the inevitable question, "What do you do?", the exchange of busines cards and later contact. When I step into a social setting and someone I meet immediately starts trying to pitch their product or service, I leave them, often not very politely. I didn't go to the party to buy a product, anymore than I go to Facebook to buy a product.

But just as similarly, when I go to a business premises to buy something or enquire about something, I don't want the salesman asking about my family, and so on. I have had to tell more than one over-friendly salesperson that I didn't come to find a friend, I came to get some information about their products.

(It's quite fun to watch their face when, having told them my name is Pearce, and they ask my first name and I tell them, "Mr.")

It seems to me, much business is done these days friends dealing with friends. If you want to keep your business life and personal life separate (and I have no problem with that) then Facebook is the wriong place to do it.

I have to strongly disagree. You are saying that Facebook can only have one purpose and businesses have no place having a presence on Facebook. That's really not your call and Facebook clearly embraces businesses having a presence. Who's to say it shouldn't be the other way around and no one without a business should be allowed to use face book just to swap photos and play Gang Wars?

I don't think it was ever stated that this was supposed to be a personal platform only. And that is really a lot to demand from a service that you use for free.

So it is OK for Capt. Morgans to have a business page, but not me?

The internet is commercial. All of it. It's an advertising medium just like T.V. and Radio and I don't know why people have a hard time accepting that it is not some free commune supported by the Gods where everything is free access and there is no commercialism. It it were. It would all be turned off by now. If Facebook was all personal accounts only...it would be $20 a month. Are you going to pay a monthly fee to search Google?

Do you think that the early days of the internet were.."Oh boy, now everyone can have free email and we can have all of this free stuff for people to use and with luck we'll be able to pay for it all from donations"...nope.
It was, "Oh Boy, now we can sell to people right in their homes!"

I understand what you are saying about mixing personal networking and business networking...and that is the whole point. I don't want to do that.

If you want to communicate with me personally you would likely not go to my business page since it is only accessible directly from my business website. It's not for personal communication or interaction...that's why I have a profile and a business page.

I think there may be some confusion because you guys are all responding as if I am pitching my business on my personal profile and I AM NOT. And that is equally confusing because most of you DO.

They are separate. As you see from the links above, the page is for my business website. The only association with my personal account is the fact that I own both and both bear my name.

If you look at the page, it is clearly listed as a professional service. so I don't want my personal things on there, anymore than I want to bother my friends with stuff that I do for business. My friends know what I do for a living...I don't need to sell them from my personal account that I use to talk football and music.

I don't understand the issue now all of a sudden with businesses having a Facebook page.
So now businesses can't network with each other on Facebook? If I want to talk to clients, share design stuff, or post up new projects I should run all of that through my personal profile? I don't think so. That's ludicrous.
They clearly give you the option...multiple options so that you don't spam the personal accounts with business crap and label business pages as such..unlike other platforms where it is all one profile and you can't tell real people from products. ( Twitter) so there really shouldn't be any confusion.

Harold Mansfield
07-13-2010, 08:08 PM
Well I changed some of the terminology so that it is not redundant and also clearly state in my opening paragraph that this is my Business Facebook Page so that there will be no confusion with my personal profile since they appear to be the same based on the name.

Just for clarification...one of my business websites is haroldmansfield.com and is what it's page is named (HaroldMansfield.com) and is listed as a professional service.

That is not my personal page which is just Harold Mansfield. There is no business stuff on my personal profile other than a link to my website and a redirect from what used to be my profile box to where to find my business related stuff. So all of the comments about commercializing personal accounts and selling stuff in to your friends and social connections....I'm not doing any of that. In fact just the opposite. I'm going to great stakes to make them separate.

It may sound confusing, but I'm playing the cards that I have been dealt in Google. Me as a blogger, blog owner, and Wordpress guy gets more action than 1st Internet Media, so why not go with it?

Spider
07-13-2010, 09:30 PM
I have to strongly disagree. You are saying that Facebook can only have one purpose and businesses have no place having a presence on Facebook...I said nothing of the sort. I was very clear on when and how I thought business had a place.



...That's really not your call...It IS my call - because I said, "I think" ie my opinion and I have a right to an opinion - so it is my call. I also said, "I think FB made a mistake." Again, my opinion, to which I am entitled.



... Facebook clearly embraces businesses having a presence. ..So do I



...Who's to say it shouldn't be the other way around and no one without a business should be allowed to use face book just to swap photos and play Gang Wars?...Facebook. Facebook says this is a social networking site. Their front page still says, "Facebook helps you connect and share with the people in your life." - the people, notice. Facebook is a social - SOCIAL - network. Now, it is their prerogative to change, but as of this writing, and according to the inscription on their first page, they haven't changed. So FB themselves are going against what FB says it is.


...I don't think it was ever stated that this was supposed to be a personal platform only...I don't know about "ever" because I haven't been a member since "for ever." But for now you are correct. But I am not advocating that it be a personal platform only. However, FB does indicate that it is primarily a personal social network, judging by the relative prominence they give to "social" and "business" on their front page.



...And that is really a lot to demand from a service that you use for free....I am not demanding anything, merely expressing an opinion. FB are at liberty to do whatever they want with their site. I woud like them to be honest, though, and I would prefer they stick to thier stated purpose. Besides, it's a little different if FB is the business being thrust in people's faces rather than other businesses that are getting *their* space for *free.*


...So it is OK for Capt. Morgans to have a business page, but not me? ...Well, you didn't tell me you were selling rum! :) But you do seem to have got things backward. I never said it was okay for Capt.Morgan to have a business page and I never said it was not okay for you to have a business page. In fact, if you read what I wrote without going dyslexic on me, you will see what I said meant you having one was okay and Capt.Morgan's was not.



...The internet is commercial. All of it...Not true. There are many parts of it that are not commercial. In fact, the majority of the internet is non-commercial. But that is immaterial. We are discussing Facebook. Facebook says they are a social networking site, not a business networking site. That's what LinkedIn sells itself as.



... It's an advertising medium just like T.V. and Radio and I don't know why people have a hard time accepting that it is not some free commune supported by the Gods where everything is free access and there is no commercialism...In this instant, you are using somebody else's facilities for free as if you think you have a right to free access supported by the gods and a god-given right to advertize to somebody else's members willy-nilly. (If you are paying Facebook for your advertising pages, then I apologize and withdraw this statement, but I don't think you are paying for it, and are guilty of your own accusations.)

It's still a jolly fine page. Maybe you should try to get it up on LinkedIn, where businesses network, seeing as it is so intentionally separate from your personal networking.

Spider
07-13-2010, 09:54 PM
...Edited:
I forgot to ask. when you go to a FB business page, what do you expect to see? Or what do you want to see?Just spotted this.

I expect to see information, background, sales pitch, etc. of a business belonging to someone I know. I want to see the connection between this person (friend) and this business. I would expect a sales pitch but I would also like to see information about the company, background of the company and products, why these products, etc. generally taking prominence over the sales pitch.

If I just wanted to buy the product or service, and find data concerning the products, I would expect to get that better at the company's website, without all the "friendly" stuff. Facebook is a social medum, and I would like to be treated on a FB business page, as I would be treated by my friend if I went to his place of business - maybe a tour of the shop, a visit to the back end, showing me how he did his job, etc.

Does that help?

Harold Mansfield
07-13-2010, 10:06 PM
I don't know how this got into a discussion about the merits of whether businesses should be on Facebook...I really don't. Especially now, 400 million users into it and growing hourly.

But I can see that opinions here today ( because it wasn't always this way here..I can point to many threads where people were setting up their Facebook pages to include their business stuff) are intolerant and now all of a sudden Facebook Business pages are some kind of anti Christ to social networking....which apparently is only for people now...and businesses shouldn't use it to network with others in the industry, customers and coworkers.

So I'll just have to agree to be completely confused about how things have changed regarding the situation.
Businesses on Facebook are as common as they are on every other popular network, actually more so. You can't swing a dead cat without someone advertising their Facebook page on T.V. anymore. I never thought of it as something rogue. I'm sure there are 10's of millions of them now and growing from the Fortune 500 down to Mom's Cookies.
Like I always say...you don't have to use Facebook. It's not some kind of right. You could always use Orkut, or Friendster.

There are tons more options for your business page, groups, fan pages artist page, and every other kind of business page than there are for personal accounts. There's only one kind of personal page..so that alone should tell you something.

But I will say this...if you truly think that the things online that you hold dear as free are truly free and not some aspect of someones marketing, you really don't get it.
With the exception of Gov sites, everyone online is in it for something. Even charities have a web presence and a Facebook page to solicit donations. It costs too much money to run a popular site. Sure any guy with $10 a month can run a blog out of the goodness of his heart, but running an operation like FB takes millions...no one is doing that out of philanthropy.

But the fact that you don't know that you are being marketed to means that they are really good at it.

Harold Mansfield
07-13-2010, 10:25 PM
Just spotted this.

I expect to see information, background, sales pitch, etc. of a business belonging to someone I know. I want to see the connection between this person (friend) and this business. I would expect a sales pitch but I would also like to see information about the company, background of the company and products, why these products, etc. generally taking prominence over the sales pitch.

If I just wanted to buy the product or service, and find data concerning the products, I would expect to get that better at the company's website, without all the "friendly" stuff. Facebook is a social medum, and I would like to be treated on a FB business page, as I would be treated by my friend if I went to his place of business - maybe a tour of the shop, a visit to the back end, showing me how he did his job, etc.

Does that help?

Yeah. I honestly don't see any of the successful companies on Facebook trying to be your friend and I probably won't be telling people my life story, how I got into web design and showing pictures of my desk.. on my website or Facebook page.

I can respect that opinion and even understand it, but competition is steep and people want professionalism. I haven't found that anyone has cared about my story or even where I am...they just want to know that I can get the job done. I don't have any personal stories to share and this isn't a family business where I will be showing pictures of my kids.

May be shallow and harsh, but I am not that kind of business and I don't think anyone cares. I'm not shaking hands at the local chamber of commerce...my clients are spread all over the country, we will probably never meet. They just want their stuff done.

If that is the kind of person they are looking to do business with..someone they can get to know personally before they plop down a deposit...then there are other people that they can find that will spend hours becoming friends with them.

But I will say this...those people that want to talk about you and get to know you personally BEFORE they actually hire you...will string you along siphoning free information off of you for ever and still never hire you. I have never found that to be any different in any kind of business.

Using a networking site for your business, the same way you use it for your personal life..is not the way I learned marketing in college, and I am not a door to door vacuum cleaner salesman. I have to stick with what works for me. And for me, what has worked is getting down to business.

Here is a good example: I just picked up a new client , fixing someone else's work. His previous Wordpress girl has had tons of personal problems, her house is being foreclosed on, and a bunch of family issues. They weren't friends and don't know each other from anywhere else. why would he know that much about her?

The disgust in his voice and lack of professional respect that he has lost for her is apparent when you talk to him. There is no place for that in business. He is so happy to talk to someone that can just get down to business and get his site back up without hearing a bunch of BS that has nothing to do with the technical issues.

There is an old saying, "No one want to sit at a bar and hear about the bartenders problems".
Being friendly is just part of customer service and eventually you get to know your long term clients, but they have to respect you professionally first or it will never get that far.

Harold Mansfield
07-13-2010, 10:55 PM
I should probably add that I have picked up 3 new clients since I built this page on Sunday..from the page (and it only went out to 100 people) , and have been contacted by some previous clients that are in my profile friends (which I didn't want) that happened to see it that now want more work done.

Could be a coincidence ,but I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with the calls to make it more personal and keep doing what makes my phone ring.
Maybe I missed out on someone who wants to get to know me better, but I haven't picked up 3 clients in one day in a while. So I did something right..and I am normally pretty good about taking suggestions and criticisms, but what is being suggested and said here is not matching what is being said by customers...so I have to look at that as well.

I've tried it the other way..talking about myself, easing into the business aspect of things, trying to be a person first and a service provider second and I wasn't making enough money. People liked talking to me, but it took them forever to pull the trigger, if ever, and it was a ton of emails and phone calls back and forth and my close ratio was 50% at best.

Now..it's one, maybe 2 conversations and a deposit. No BS, no bending the ear of the "nice guy" and talking about the weather.
This way works for me. To the point. get the job done.
I was the same way behind the bar and as a limo driver and I made good money for years. TCB first.

Don't get me wrong folks. I hear ya. "It's too commercial"...well, it's a commercial page. It's supposed to be. Facebook has seen fit to give me a ton of tools and options to promote my business and I'm going to use them.

But I've heard more about everyone's vision of what they think Facebook should be, rather than an actual critique of the work and no acceptance of what Facebook is. It's for everyone. Not just who you think should be networking on it.

Search "Wordpress" in FB (just to stay in the niche) and look at the other service providers. They are all selling their services. No different from me.

Spider
07-13-2010, 11:55 PM
You really don't get it, do you, Harold. You are doing exactly the same thing you accuse others of doing.

You don't understand how this got into a discussion about whether business should be on Facebook? Because you made it about that, my friend!

You object to people wanting free access, but you are using free access just the same.

You're acting like the guy that walks into a house party and tries selling his products to everyone he meets. And thinks he has a right to do that.

There's no talking with you when you go ballistic, with things like, "all of a sudden Facebook Business pages are some kind of anti Christ to social networking....which apparently is only for people now..." It never was, and I'm sure you know it.

And I just loved this one: "but running an operation like FB takes millions...no one is doing that out of philanthropy." How are any of the business pages on FB helping FB earn any money for the millions they have spent providing the business owners with free business pages?

Perhaps FB are sucking the businesses in and will stick them with the bill, one day. FB will surely want to monetize their success, some day.

You might have no time to be friends with your clients, Harold. That's fine. No-one says you should. But if that is your style, don't use a social networking platform. If you want to keep it strictly business, then sell in a strictly business environment. There are places. Facebook isn't one of them. Facebook is a social networking site - FB says so.

I believe the attitude you have expressed here is showing a considerable amount of disrespect for what other people want. If someone wants to network socially, that is their right. They should not have to tolerate a sales pitch at every turn. Likewise, a business has a right to sell their products, but I do not believe a business has the right to impose itself into social settings. No more than a visitor to a trade fair has the right to insist on turning into a social party.

But if one is careful, sensible and sensitive, business can be done in a social setting and fun can be had in a business setting.

Harold Mansfield
07-14-2010, 12:17 AM
I believe the attitude you have expressed here is showing a considerable amount of disrespect for what other people want. If someone wants to network socially, that is their right. They should not have to tolerate a sales pitch at every turn. Likewise, a business has a right to sell their products, but I do not believe a business has the right to impose itself into social settings. No more than a visitor to a trade fair has the right to insist on turning into a social party.

But if one is careful, sensible and sensitive, business can be done in a social setting and fun can be had in a business setting.

I don't see why I can't use it however I want. The only rules that apply are the FB TOS and I am well within them. How is any business imposing itself on you? You follow and friend who you want to. You don't ever have to see any commercial pages if you don't want to. It can be what ever you want it to be for you.
I am not walking into anyone's house and selling anything. FB isn't your house and only for you. I know people on it too. Why can't I talk to my people my way? You do yours.

How am I showing disrespect for what other people want? All I did was create a simple business page and ask for a review of it. Not a moral discussion of the platform.
What does that have to do with what you want your Facebook experience to be?

Tell me you don't like it. Tell me that it looks unprofessional. Tell me that it does nothing to promote my talent for making pages...but don't sit here and try to reinvent the wheel ( a wheel that was rolling long before you made your first profile) and tell me what Facebook is based on what you want. it to be in your little corner of it. You can't possibly speak for 400 million people or the people that own it.

It is what it is and I seriously doubt that you would have this much disdain for any of the other millions of companies that have pages.
Why is mine all of a sudden a discussion for the morality of social networking? And by the way, it's called Social Networking. NOT personal networking...and while we are at that:

Networking: –noun 1. a supportive system of sharing information and services among individuals and groups having a common interest

social networking: the use of a website to connect with people who share personal or professional interests, place of origin, education at a particular school, etc.
Where in that definition does it say "according to Spiders rules"? It's a networking community for everyone...not a personal communication platform just for you.

I look at your profile and see the TON of commercial enterprises that you follow...(thanks for following by the way:))


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And they are all promoting or selling SOMETHING. Whether it be awareness, soliciting donations, selling books, services, a TV show (which is selling advertisement) sign a petition, what ever....They are all selling or promoting something. They aren't sitting around passing messages about the weather...and you want to pass judgment on me doing the same thing?

But here is the difference...you like them, so they aren't the same. It s the companies or organizations that you have no interest in that are all of a sudden ruining social networking.
How the heck can you follow Tony Robins, a one man sales conglomerate, and not see the irony and hypocrisy of your argument?

How is this different? You're even doing it yourself ! You promote your blog , website and book on your profile ! Aren't you trying to make money with them? Did you even look at your own profile before you started this discussion and made this statement?

I think Facebook have made a mistake in allowing such blatant business pages. I can see a business page for someone who already has a personal page and let the business page be an extension of that. Doing as they have done, with completely separate business pages, they are introducing too much commerce into a social setting.

You have a whole list of links that point to pages that sell something ( except for one). You have one of the most commercial, personal profiles that I have ever seen. You yourself have 2 Business pages linking from your personal profile. You're not just linking to your own commercial interest, but to other peoples. You're hocking books all over the place.

So what are you saying?...that we all shouldn't have business pages, we should just pitch all of our stuff on our personal page like you do?...well THAT is not within the Facebook intent. Their intent is that personal pages be personal and business pages be about your business..not mix the 2 and do business from your personal page...that's why they give you soooo many business options.

I mean c'mon Frederick? Ok for you, but not anyone else?

And for the record, business pages are an extension of your personal page. You can't have completely separate business pages. Actually you can't have 2 profiles at all no matter what the reason. All of your pages have to be under your personal profile....which is exactly what I am doing. All I did was add a little HTML to a couple of FBML pages, the same as Hersheys, Coke Pepsi, Mc Donalds and every other of the millions of businesses that have pages.

and also for the record:

You don't understand how this got into a discussion about whether business should be on Facebook? Because you made it about that, my friend!
I DID NOT. All I asked for was a review of the work, but you are just completely unable to control your need to stir the pot and take opposite sides of EVERYTHING. Even if it's wrong. This wasn't the place. If you didn't have any help to give, you should have started another thread in the Internet Marketing section where I would have been glad to discuss this with you.

But how dare you have business pages and turn on me for having one. I can understand if you don't like it, but don't question my right to be able to create one just because I didn't do it your way. Your stuff is no more important than mine. And your commercial endeavors are no more reputable or disreputable than anyone else's..so don't look down your nose at me when you are doing the EXACT same thing and supporting others that are doing it as well.
That is out of line.

Everyone is selling something and you are selling more than anyone which is why I really don't understand this discussion and why you had to start it here. All I asked for was a review. Why would you even break into that with a personal soliloquy about how business pages are a disservice? According to who? You? When did you plop down $200 million to start Facebook?

Hmmn, let's see. I post a business page up for review and instead you tell me how Facebook really messed up by allowing me to do that.
You don' t see how that is offensive, out of place, and just completely hypocritical given the bulletin board of products and books radiating off of your own profile?

If you don't like the page or have some suggestions for improvement then please contribute, but I didn't ask for all of this nonsense. For pete's sake i sat here for 2 days helping you with your FB page and then you turn around and belittle mine and my right to have my own? What kind of crap is that?

At least I have the forethought to put my business where it belongs...separate..where Facebook told me to put it and graciously gave me options for creating it and promoting it. This is their business and this is the option they have given me to use it. What's your problem with it? If you don't like the fact that they allow business pages then take it up with Facebook or use another platform...but don't trash my thread just to argue for arguments sake while I'm sitting here hoping to get some informed critiques for improvement.

What did you think you would accomplish, that I would take it down?

I'm not spamming anyone, or soliciting people on my personal profile. I am trying to keep everything with the people that are interested in them.
That's why I have removed all of my commercial stuff off of my profile and to it's appropriate designated page.

If my business could speak, this page is what it would say. No different than what my personal profile says about me.

If you really want to know how I feel about it...and in keeping with your logic...I don't think there is any place for your professional endeavors, or commercial enterprises on the page that you use to communicate with friends..yet you have no problem with that...but make a business page and all of a sudden it's the downfall of western society.

I'm at a loss for words. (well at least more words)

Spider
07-14-2010, 09:40 AM
I think western society will survive.

KristineS
07-14-2010, 12:49 PM
I'm not against Facebook being used for businesses. I use Facebook for the business for which I work.

I think where we differ is in our approach. I tend to be more dedicated to creating social networks first and selling the business second. That's a personal choice, and I don't expect that everyone will do it the same way I do. The business page is separate and personal does not cross over into business, but I'm still looking to make alliances and form connections before I'm looking to do a straight consumer transaction.

Personally, I think that eventually there will be two types of business pages on Facebook. One type will be the ones for the big businesses, Nike Coca-Cola, etc. that are there because that's where people are, that are just another publicity venue and which spout the same corporate crap that everything else does. The other type will more personal and will probably be created mostly by smaller businesses, who need to form a closer and more personal connection with their customers in order to survive. I'm not saying that the two types won't interchange occasionally, nor do I think there's one right way to create a Facebook page and use Facebook. I think people are still finding their way with this and it's relatively new.

Harold Mansfield
07-14-2010, 01:10 PM
I'm not against Facebook being used for businesses. I use Facebook for the business for which I work.

I think where we differ is in our approach. I tend to be more dedicated to creating social networks first and selling the business second. That's a personal choice, and I don't expect that everyone will do it the same way I do. The business page is separate and personal does not cross over into business, but I'm still looking to make alliances and form connections before I'm looking to do a straight consumer transaction.

Personally, I think that eventually there will be two types of business pages on Facebook. One type will be the ones for the big businesses, Nike Coca-Cola, etc. that are there because that's where people are, that are just another publicity venue and which spout the same corporate crap that everything else does. The other type will more personal and will probably be created mostly by smaller businesses, who need to form a closer and more personal connection with their customers in order to survive. I'm not saying that the two types won't interchange occasionally, nor do I think there's one right way to create a Facebook page and use Facebook. I think people are still finding their way with this and it's relatively new.

Yes, I can see that. There are actually at least 15 different types of business pages on Facebook that have all kinds of different configurations everything from bands who sell tickets to their concerts, to movie companies..many with ecommerce shops, music downloads ...I mean the kind of marketing and sales pages on Facebook is as diverse as the people on it. If you actually look around and see how many different configurations there are out there its absolutely amazing. Facebook is a college level marketing course just sitting there...and these people have taken pages to a level that I have never seen anywhere online. Personally I think its brilliant and I am in awe of some of the work out there.

The other amazing thing about facebook is that people actually expect to see their favorite brands or companies that they do business with on there. Where as platforms like Twitter and My space get crucified for their commercialism, on Facebook if you don't have a business presence it's almost seen as less than credible.

For my business, I haven't found that cultivating relationships over a long period of time has lead to any increase in clients. I love the fact that you can have a business page to increase brand awareness and even sell stuff, but I don't need a 3 month romance with someone to get them to hire me for a 3 hour job. I usually land most of my clients on the first or second phone call, but that presence online is what enticed them to call in the first place...so for me, my profiles online, websites, blogs, articles, and everything else serve as an example of my work and experience and as real estate more than anything.

And although I have only been at this as an independent a short amount of time..the account clients that I have been able to secure came as a result of doing the first job to their satisfaction, which then led to a more permanent relationship...just as business has always been. It wasn't because we built a relationship over time. I expect that if you are selling commercial real estate or heavy equipment or some kind of service that is either long term, or high dollar, that is going to be different.
I can't see many businesses plopping down $350k on a construction crane on the first phone call just because they saw you on Facebook or Twitter....cultivation and salesmanship would be essential.

Of course our approach is going to be different. we are different people with a different kinds of businesses. But as I said, I have tried it many different ways and the more direct I am, the more work I get and the faster I can get a one time client done, and invoiced. To date, I can honestly say that 80 percent of all my clients have returned for more work. And I am in touch with everyone that I have ever serviced in the last 8 months. I cant complain about that ratio.
A 3 hour job used to take me 3 days to secure (with all of the small talk and what not) , invoice for a deposit, do the work and get final payment. Now it takes me 4 hours if the people are ready to rock and roll.

I have also noticed that I get better calls. I used to get people with a lot of questions and didn't know what they really wanted to do, or how much they wanted to spend, or wanted to bargain on the price...blah, blah, blah. Now, since I don't beat around the bush on my websites, or anywhere else..neither do they and I am most times sending an invoice by the time I hang up.
I love it this way.

Harold Mansfield
07-14-2010, 04:05 PM
You know, I hope I'm not repeating my self, but I think some people are too personally involved with FB and to think it's just for them.
The bottom line is , just about everybody on FB is promoting or selling something.

From my buddy who sends out messages to let his friends know what bar he is working so that we will come visit and tip him well,
The blogger that posts up their latest blog post, (which I am sure ALL of us do)
My other unemployed friend who uses it to promote his resume',
My cousin who is constantly supporting and promoting causes, charities and political actions,
Another friend who is always joining stupid pages and wants everyone else to join,
The mom and pop cookie shop,
The car manufacturer giving out free iPods with a test drive
Favorite TV program posting up clips of previous episodes to remind you to watch.
My favorite DJ's that send out weekly podcasts
The comedians I follow that post up jokes and promote their upcoming appearances
The political and social organizations that send around petitions.

Just about everyone has some kind agenda at one time or another and is promoting, selling, marketing or pitching something eitherthier own stuff or someone else's stuff.

It's not Social Networking. It's not a mixer...it's Social Marketing and Promotion.
The only difference is the scale, organization and professionalism of the person doing the pitching.

lav
07-14-2010, 09:06 PM
Facebook...... use it how you want LOL


I forgot to ask. when you go to a FB business page, what do you expect to see? Or what do you want to see?
First place I want to go is your wall. I dont really care for about me pages etc when Im checking out someones profile. I think I get a better feel for whether I want like a business profile by whats on their wall. If its full of spam and games I dont like it. If there are good genuine posts I'll like it. I would rather find a link to someones website or if its my business page I would rather link to my website. For me that is one of the biggest factors of using social media for business...... to get users to my website frequently.

At my website I have better control of what they see and how they percieve my business, If I put too much on an about us page on facebook (which I dont have) they may skip taking a look at my website because they may think all the info that they need is there on facebook, but I have so much more too offer than what I can get on facebook.

Of course my opinions may differ if I was in a different industry.

Harold Mansfield
07-14-2010, 09:22 PM
Thanks lay.
I was thinking about that as well. How much do I want to say on my Facebook page? But my thinking was...that it needed to be an example as well, so I figured I may as well be functional. I mean who trusts a car mechanic who drives a beater in bad repair? Normally, I wouldn't have so much on it, it's a little overkill with the 2 forms and all, but I wanted to show some different possibilities.

I think I like the wall landing too.
Appreciate the feedback.

KristineS
07-15-2010, 01:26 PM
Of course our approach is going to be different. we are different people with a different kinds of businesses. But as I said, I have tried it many different ways and the more direct I am, the more work I get and the faster I can get a one time client done, and invoiced. To date, I can honestly say that 80 percent of all my clients have returned for more work. And I am in touch with everyone that I have ever serviced in the last 8 months. I cant complain about that ratio.
A 3 hour job used to take me 3 days to secure (with all of the small talk and what not) , invoice for a deposit, do the work and get final payment. Now it takes me 4 hours if the people are ready to rock and roll.



I think you mentioned a few key things here. One is that different people and different industries will require working with Facebook in different ways. Our company sells machine embroidery supplies. That industry is very clubby. You need to make connections personally because a lot of people buy based on those connections. So, when I created the page, making connections was my first goal. If I were working in a different industry, I might have done things differently.

The second thing is your statement that you've tried several different ways to set up your page, and this one works best for you. If you've tested the market and find that this configuration gets the best response, then it's obviously the right one for you and your business. Testing is key. I tried some different things with my page, and I watched the pages of some of our competitors and I discovered that a more personal approach seems to work for us. You have to try some things and see them not do so well to know what works best for you and what doesn't. That's a fact that a lot of people forget. They think they can take a class or read a book and create a cookie cutter Facebook page that will blow the doors off their sales. It doesn't work that way.

As for everyone on Facebook promoting or selling something, you're right, but I think some people are more overt than others. I have a personal profile that's not connected in any way with my business, and there are a few people I'm friends with because of a blog that I write. These people constantly promote their businesses, to the point that I'm thinking of unfriending them. I think you have to find the right mix, and yes, I'll admit I'd expect a different type of marketing and selling mix from a large corporation than I would from an individual. I'm not saying it's logical, but it is true for me.

Harold Mansfield
07-16-2010, 11:07 AM
The second thing is your statement that you've tried several different ways to set up your page, and this one works best for you. If you've tested the market and find that this configuration gets the best response, then it's obviously the right one for you and your business. Testing is key. I tried some different things with my page, and I watched the pages of some of our competitors and I discovered that a more personal approach seems to work for us. You have to try some things and see them not do so well to know what works best for you and what doesn't. That's a fact that a lot of people forget. They think they can take a class or read a book and create a cookie cutter Facebook page that will blow the doors off their sales. It doesn't work that way.


That's pretty much it. People are hiring me for a service. The only thing they seem interested in is how I perform that service.
I seriously doubt that anyone who is thinking to hire me is actually reading that Facebook page..they are looking at how it
s designed and imagining what they want theirs to look like when they hire me to build it.

I know that hiring web designer for a lot of people is an anxious undertaking and I thought in the beginning that I would cater my "about" pages and such to be more personal to make them feel at ease with hiring me. That did not work. All it it did was make them feel more comfortable low balling my price or asking for free advice and tutorials. It seemed when people felt like they "knew me", they also seemed to have less respect for me professionally.

Now of course I haven't tested this for a long period of time, but I am just starting out and need to bring in income so I obviously can't test things for a year, but subtle changes in things over the last few months have seen positive results...and the response to that Facebook page specifically has been good.

Spider
08-01-2010, 10:04 AM
As this thread progressed, I noticed that I had been visiting Facebook less and less. Many friends I had looked out for seemed to be visiting less, too. Now, I realise that I am hardly visiting Facebook at all. Why? On thinking about the answer, I felt that my news feed had become almost entirely posts of friends and businesses trying to sell me something or wanting me to lead a better life with endless quotes. "Keeping up with friends" was almost non-existent. And I realised – as Harold stated in an earlier post – that I was doing the same.

In a word, Facebook seems to have moved rapidly from being a pleasant social meeting place of friends and acquaintances, to being a noisy marketplace of hawkers and roadside stands. And I did my part to make it so. Once again, like e-mail and the telephone before it, a super electronic marvel is turned into a crapheap. Such is progress!

I hope your pages do well, Harold.

Harold Mansfield
08-01-2010, 10:20 AM
As this thread progressed, I noticed that I had been visiting Facebook less and less. Many friends I had looked out for seemed to be visiting less, too. Now, I realise that I am hardly visiting Facebook at all. Why? On thinking about the answer, I felt that my news feed had become almost entirely posts of friends and businesses trying to sell me something or wanting me to lead a better life with endless quotes. "Keeping up with friends" was almost non-existent. And I realised – as Harold stated in an earlier post – that I was doing the same.

In a word, Facebook seems to have moved rapidly from being a pleasant social meeting place of friends and acquaintances, to being a noisy marketplace of hawkers and roadside stands. And I did my part to make it so. Once again, like e-mail and the telephone before it, a super electronic marvel is turned into a crapheap. Such is progress!

I hope your pages do well, Harold.


It doesn't have to be that way. You can clean up your news feed by "un liking" pages and un-friending people. My feed is a combination of wisecracking with friends, music, and news and it works for me. But you can sculpt it to be what ever it is that you want.

Facebook is getting very loud recently...everyone is shouting "look at me" but you only have to see the ones that you want. I don't think anyone will ever be able to come up with a social platform that doesn't fall to a certain amount of commercialism.

Dan Furman
08-01-2010, 12:28 PM
As this thread progressed, I noticed that I had been visiting Facebook less and less. Many friends I had looked out for seemed to be visiting less, too. Now, I realise that I am hardly visiting Facebook at all. Why? On thinking about the answer, I felt that my news feed had become almost entirely posts of friends and businesses trying to sell me something or wanting me to lead a better life with endless quotes. "Keeping up with friends" was almost non-existent. And I realised – as Harold stated in an earlier post – that I was doing the same.

In a word, Facebook seems to have moved rapidly from being a pleasant social meeting place of friends and acquaintances, to being a noisy marketplace of hawkers and roadside stands. And I did my part to make it so. Once again, like e-mail and the telephone before it, a super electronic marvel is turned into a crapheap. Such is progress!

I hope your pages do well, Harold.

All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy.

One thing is, I noticed a lot of businesses joined Facebook and Twitter because they had to get into this next big marketing thing, and all they have to say is "look at my stuff". EVERY interaction is (ultimately) about THEM selling. To me, that's bland and boring. If you aren't going to be a social business, don't do social marketing. Because really, people don't care about your business. If all you have to say are things related to your business, you really have zero to offer in a social sense - you're that guy at the party that can't talk about anything BUT business. I agree with the Facebook founder in that there's only one you - there's not a "work" you and a "you" you. If there is, one of them is somewhat phony (likely the "work" you.) We're quickly finding out that phony doesn't work in social marketing.

To me, Facebook is a place for me to be friendly, funny, and cool (I'm just naturally cool, mind you ;) ) Sometimes I'm insightful, sometimes I'm funny, sometimes I have something to say in regards to business, and sometimes I just say I have insomnia that night. Ultimately, I'm "Dan Furman". Not "Dan's Business", but Dan Furman. And since my business is really "me", there is no disconnect between the two. Do people care that I cut my lawn today? Probably not. Do they care about my cruise to Bermuda and want to see my pictures? Maybe, maybe not. But in the end, if I were talking to them at a party, lawn cutting or my Bermuda trip might come up. So it fits in my "Dan Furman is the business" sense. I'll be making a bigger Facebook push when I do my new website.

Now, another type of business might approach it differently. I know a very successful retail business that mostly uses facebook to post goofy pictures of their mascot duck in odd places (ala Amelie) and run silly contests ("let's have a scavenger hunt - the first person to bring us these six items gets this $100 prize"). On contest days, the place is a madhouse. In other words, facebook has become THE main way they reach their audience. Yea, every now and again they post pictures of new items, but most of their posts are "fun" in an engaging sense. It truly is "their business online", where the talk at the sales counter might be business, or it might be about the duck.

Harold Mansfield
08-01-2010, 12:47 PM
I agree with you there Dan, and I'll be the first to admit only one of my pages is an interaction with people of similar interests....the rest are just a way to hold real estate with my company, keyword, or website name.

Facebook is heavily indexed and when you search for a person or business, if they have a Facebook or Twitter profile, it will come up on the first page. I always strive to capture all 10 spots on the first page.

You can't get all 10 spots, if you don't have 10 separate pieces of real estate and Facebook is good real estate.

Until I figure out what to do with different pages, to me a Facebook page is a free way to hold web real estate and keep others out of my area...and since I'm securing that piece of Real Estate, may as well build something on it as another way to get people to the main site..since they were searching for me anyway.
If you have your website, FB page, and Twitter Profile...that's 3 spots that are easy to get for your business.

Same goes with all the other profiles that you use in this way. It's a waste to capture a position and not have anything dynamic on it that will attract potential business.

Yep, I know it has nothing to do with Social Networking, but it's not like there are any rules. I'm always thinking "What's going to come up in Google when people go to check me out? All of my own stuff...or 2 listing of my company and 8 competitors?"

vangogh
08-02-2010, 12:33 AM
Lately I've been seeing the advice more and more to have separate Facebook profiles for your personal life and your business life. I think the reason place like Facebook and Twitter seem like so much marketing is because most of us mix the personal and business profiles instead of separating them.

Harold Mansfield
08-02-2010, 01:06 AM
You should definitely separate the 2. I'm still amazed when I get a client that uses their personal profile for their business. Facebook gives you sooo many options for a business or fan page , community and group pages, and has no limitations on how many you can make. I think I have 3-4 active pages and 4 keyword pages that I registered, just haven't built because I don't have a plan for them yet.

They just all have to be under one account. No multiple accounts with Facebook.

But Twitter...you can have as many accounts as you wish.

You should definitely have a separate page for your business if you plan on talking, promoting or doing business with people on Facebook.

Spider
08-02-2010, 10:41 AM
Lately I've been seeing the advice more and more to have separate Facebook profiles for your personal life and your business life. I think the reason place like Facebook and Twitter seem like so much marketing is because most of us mix the personal and business profiles instead of separating them.As has already been stated - here and in the FB TOS - more than one profile is against FB rules. How so many are getting away with it suggests to me that FB doesn't care. I always report it when I see it happening.

Harold Mansfield
08-02-2010, 10:53 AM
Just because someone has multiple pages, doesn't mean they have multiple profiles. From what I have seen FB has been really good at catching multiple profiles, particularly with opportunist that start profiles with disposable email addresses with the intention of flipping pages...unless you are doing that, there really is no reason to do it. They have even lowered the requirement for a custom URL down to 25 fans, from 100. They are making it really easy for people to operate within the T.O.S.

vangogh
08-02-2010, 10:55 AM
Sorry, I meant setting up a Fan page for business and using your profile for personal. The basic idea remains that of keeping personal and business separate.

It would be impossible for Facebook to prevent all people from opening multiple profiles. How can they realistically know that 2 different email address belong to the same person? In some cases it's probably not to hard to figure out, but in others it would be close to impossible. Having a rule in place is one thing. Being able to police that rule is another.

Harold Mansfield
08-02-2010, 11:47 AM
I don't think anyone can police anything 100 percent, but they do catch people all of the time...it may not be instantly. I see people complaining all the time that their profile was disabled after weeks or months of activity, only to find out that it was their second profile.
For instance, a lot of people think that having one account as their business name and one account for their personal stuff is acceptable and it isn't.

I think FB has taken the more accommodating role of instead of punishment, they have made it extremely easy to follow the rules. Tons of page options without limitations on how many you can have.

It really just seems to be an effort to have some accountability for your actions on Facebook and cut down on the amount of anonymous accounts. Anonymous accounts are mainly created to spam or do some kind of desirable activity.which is the problem with most platforms like this...the ability to avoid any accountability for your actions.
I think it has been a good way to deter spam accounts, they are very low on Facebook.

Very rarely is an account or actions not traceable to a real person.