How come we still haven't embraced the metric system here?

[Harold Mansfield]

I don't get it. Aren't we like the only country in the world who still uses the standard system?

I mean we know what a 2 liter of Pepsi is and the stoners and other drug buyers have it down to a science...no problem for them knowing grams and kilo's and their relationship to money.

I talk to a friend in Ireland all the time and have to guesstimate in my head on simple conversations about the weather, price of gas and distance.

I'm just curious what our excuse is as a country that we still won't convert?

[Spider]

There's no excuse. Britain had the proximity of Europe to bring about her change from imperial to metric. You'd think America would want to cast off as quickly as possioble anything that reeked of imperialism!

[Patrysha]

So do you guys have to learn metric in school at all?
I think we spent maybe half a class a year in school learning anything about imperial measurements...you have to know at least that to cook, but that's about all.

[Business Attorney]

I remember growing up in the 60s. We not only studied it but were told that by the time we got into the work force, we would need to know the metric system because the U.S., like the rest of the world, would be on the metric system.

It is still taught in school, but I don't see any great move to change over. It is pretty amazing that we can be so insulated. My kids know what a kilometer is (they have run in 5K races, after all), but they could not tell you quickly whether a speed limit of 60 kilometers an hour is fast or whether 33 degrees centigrade is hot or just warm. If you don't live it, you don't think it.

[billbenson]

I think there is more than you realize. I believe drawings for the gov't have to have the metric system. Not sure. Anybody that goes to engineering school as I did work mostly in the metric system. I think a lot of people are very comfortable in the metric system. The biggest group that object to it I suspect are the elderly. They aren't going to see the reason for the change and we all know plenty of politicians are in the elderly category. Road signs and other complete conversions would be expensive.

I have a bottle of gatorade on my desk. All of the quantities for what is included in the bottle are in metric, the quantity is in both. Computer hardware is specified in the metric system. I think you are more likely to here $10K than 10 Grand.

Of course there are trades such as carpentry that are so accustomed to our system such as carpenters that they would also be very resistant.

Another little tidbit I found.


It is the universal language of measurement of all countries. It is used in scientific and medical profession, the armed services, and in international relations.

[Harold Mansfield]

Yeah, when I was in grade school they told us that it was going to be the standard by the time we got to High School and then I never heard anything else about it until college and pot went from being measured in ounces to grams.
It's funny how we have a bastardized acceptance of some things. Cars have both KPH and MPH and something in the engine is measured in Liters. Large bottles of soft drinks are in 2 litter bottles, but I don't think most people know how many quarts that is.

It must be irritating to ship goods to the U.S. that require measurements listed. I'd probably wonder "what the heck is wrong with these arrogant bastards? It's been 50 years. You'd think they could get it together by now."

[Steve B]

I can tell you what happened to that initiative in the 70's when we were all on track to switch to the metric system. It was definitely going to happen, but it was stopped by Reagon. I haven't heard anything serious about switching over since.

[nealrm]

Having a background in engineering, research and manufacturing I can tell you that most major manufacturing is metric. The auto industry is completely metric with most goods being purchased by the kilo, cc or similar units. All the drawings are done in metric. The odd thing is that many of the machine shop still converts everything over to English units. In some cases it is because the machines only display in English, in others it is just habit.

What I find strange is why carpenters don’t use the metric system. It is so much easier to add 10.5cm + 12.2cm then 4 1/8 + 4 3/16.

Just an interesting note, the US is officially using only the metric system. Since the 70’s the English system has been a subset of the metric system with all units defined in metric terms. Thus 1 in = 2.54 cm exactly and 1 teaspoon=5ml.

[cbscreative]

If I recall correctly, the official year of the switch was supposed to be 1978. They can't bury that old convoluted system fast enough as far as I'm concerned. The only thing holding it back is tradition, familiarity, and the refusal of relics to think in metrics. King Henry VIII was a brutal, arrogant smear on the historical timeline. I say we're long overdue to get rid of his undeserved legacy he forced on his subjects and let it rot with him.

Maybe someday, I'll express how I really feel about this subject.

Like Patrysha stated above, we need to spend a half a school year teaching a system that most adults still don't know the details of. How many here could tell you how many pecks there are in a bushel? If I asked the number of cups in a gallon, you would most likely have to do a long pause, calculate, guess, or even admit you have no idea. Metrics can be taught in about 10 minutes. Imperial measuring is a sick joke on all of us. But like I said, someday I'll express how I really feel about this subject.

[Harold Mansfield]

How many here could tell you how many pecks there are in a bushel?

Ha, Ha. That would be assuming that I still know what a bushel is. I guess it's true, if you don't use it, you lose it.

[Spider]

A bushel is something you mustn't hide your light under.

[Evan]

The only time the metric system ever comes up is in science class. Otherwise, it's often breezed over, and not emphasized nearly as much as it should be. Not knowing whether 30C is hot, or whether 60km is fast is a problem, but when you don't measure things in that unit, it is difficult.

The metric system is so much easier when you think about it. But with all of the issues in the United States, I don't think many people would be happy if Congress were to tackle "this" issue instead of all the other problems that exist. So as long as our economy isn't doing so good, we won't focus on this.

But hey, we could "cut" our debt nearly in half if we change over to the Euro!

[Harold Mansfield]

But hey, we could "cut" our debt nearly in half if we change over to the Euro!

Heeeyyy! Easy now. It's called the Euro for a reason. I'm not ready to give up on the good old American greenback just because of a little debt.

[Business Attorney]

Since we all seem to agree that it is time to ditch the Imperial system, maybe SBF should spearhead the renewed effort to officially abandon the old system in favor of the metric system. Let's fan out to all corners of America and hoist the metric banner high!

[nealrm]

I always felt that the best method was to just stop teaching the English system in school. Have all the classes taught exclusivly using the metric system. The biggest hurdle is changing over the highway system to km & kmh. Using this method give us 16 year to change over the signs to include both units. After 20 years I would have all new sign being only in metric.

[Blacktalon]

The Metric System is the only one I've known. It was in full force when I attended school in the early 80s.

I wrack my brain everytime I watch American weather reports because I have to do the conversion in my head. Same with miles to kilometres, although turning miles into kilometres isn't too difficult (1 mile = 1.6 kilometres, give or take). The only thing I find rather annoying is the imperial measurements with food. But then again it's rather rare to see recipe requirements in metric.

[Spider]

Why - when anything of this nature comes up - do we (as a culture) always expect someone else to fix it? Congress, the government, the school system, even SBF!

Shoot! The metric system is out there for everyone - anyone - to use - free. No charge. If you think we should go metric, go metric and be ahead of everyone else. I am conversant with both systems and live happily with both, as need arises. It's easy enough with a little practice.

Press whatever button is on your car to change the speedometer to Km/hr. Get a ruler with imperial on one edge and metric on the other - and use the metric side. Gosh! Do you really need someone else to do this for you?!

I think it was Ghandi who said, "Be the change you want to see."

[KristineS]

A bushel is something you mustn't hide your light under.

O.k., that was funny Frederick! Good one.

[nealrm]

Frederick,
I'm all for taking individual responsibility for items one can control, that is not the case with standard units of measure. Sure I can measure everything in my house using metric, change my car to read in metric, and even write my receipies using metric. However, I can't expect my metic wrench to fit a standard bolt. Nor does it do me much good to change my car to metric if the maps, milage signs and speed limits are all in English units.

This is just one of those items we as a people need to decide on. Just like what side of the road to drive on and that green means go and red means stop.

[Spider]

If you want to do something, you'll always find a way. If you don't want to do something, you can always find an excuse!

[nealrm]

Quotes are great when you don't have a logical arguement to make.

[billbenson]

As to road signs, which I think are one of the more expensive things to adapt, I'd say just put both measurements on the new ones with the metric numbers larger. Don't replace the existing ones for the purpose of change. Over time the existing systems would fade out. If doctors started weighing people in libra's instead of pounds, that would change that, and doctors deal mostly in the metric system anyway. If all house plans were in metric, carpenters would have to change.

[nealrm]

I agree. As signs need replacing, replace them with ones having the metric system prominent and the English system secondary. Over time the signs would get all replaced. However, you do have to have a time point where all sign have to be upgraded, else you end up with signs still in the Engish system after everyone has converted to metric. Road signs can have a very long life.

[Dan Furman]

We are a short-term country. Anything that will cause any pain or expense is frowned upon. Switching to the metric system would be very expensive (just the road signs alone would cost a fortune.) How well will spending that money today really fly.

[nealrm]

Would the cost be that great?

Road signs can be updated when they are damaged and already require replacement. The cost of adding a few charactor would be minimal. Much of what is imported is already in metric. For example, I suspect that many of the items that are labeled as 8ft are really 245 or 250mm. Any factory that exports would already have systems in-place to handle metric and English units. Most would save money by dropping the english unit systems. A good example are bolts. Now bolt producers have to allicate time and molds to producing both english and metric bolts. That means maintance on 2 sets of molds, change over time etc. All that is money wasted.

[Dan Furman]

Would the cost be that great?

Road signs can be updated when they are damaged and already require replacement. The cost of adding a few charactor would be minimal.

I doubt that highly - the cost would be significant. Just the logistics to coordinate it gives me a headache. You can't equate the single sign argument ("well, it can't cost much to put on a few characters") with changing every numbered sign in the nation.

Plus, you can't have just a few - it has to be all or nothing. Then it would cost a fortune just to teach everyone the darn thing.

Don't get me wrong - long term, it's cheaper. But we don't think long term here.

[Spider]

Quotes are great when you don't have a logical arguement to make.Oh. You want it in my own words? Okay....

Anyone who really wants to do something will not be put off from doing it and will find a way to get it done. But someone who doesn't want to do something will not say, "I don't want to do it," because then they will appear lazy, so they make an excuse and pretend it is impossible.

[billbenson]

We are a short-term country. Anything that will cause any pain or expense is frowned upon. Switching to the metric system would be very expensive (just the road signs alone would cost a fortune.) How well will spending that money today really fly.

I did a little bit of searching. All exported products have to either use the metric system or both systems. Most industries from the automobile to whatever have converted. It's just easier. All gov't proposals documents etc must be in both since 1993. And we are the only country using our system.

Maybe we should really screw things up and combine the two. Speed limit signs could be in Megafeet per hour.

[Spider]

As to road signs, which I think are one of the more expensive things to adapt, I'd say just put both measurements on the new ones with the metric numbers larger. Don't replace the existing ones for the purpose of change. Over time the existing systems would fade out. If doctors started weighing people in libra's instead of pounds, that would change that, and doctors deal mostly in the metric system anyway. If all house plans were in metric, carpenters would have to change.Here we are still expecting someone else to make the effort - DOT changing road signs, doctors weighing people, architects designing in metric. We don't have to wait for someone else - we can just learn the metric system and use it. We don't have to forget the imperial system - the two can exist side by side. It's not an either/or situation.

[Spider]

I agree. As signs need replacing, replace them with ones having the metric system prominent and the English system secondary. Over time the signs would get all replaced. However, you do have to have a time point where all sign have to be upgraded, else you end up with signs still in the Engish system after everyone has converted to metric. Road signs can have a very long life.I agree that signs can be changed when they are changed. No need for a special effort to remove the imperial signs and replace them with metric.

I don't agree that we need a time by which all are changed. The two systems can exist side by side. You can have a sign for 40 mile an hour right next to a sign for 65 km per hour. They mean the same thing. If you go over either one you are breaking the speed limit.

[Spider]

We are a short-term country. Anything that will cause any pain or expense is frowned upon. Switching to the metric system would be very expensive (just the road signs alone would cost a fortune.) How well will spending that money today really fly.Switching signs, even apart from being unnecessary, would not be expensive. We are spending lots of money on unemployment benefit. Instead, hire the unemployed to make and install the new signs and pay them a wage instead. Same money we are spending now, only we would be getting something for those spent funds - and the money goes around in the economy just the same.

[Steve B]

Here is an interesting chronology of the history of the metric system in the U.S. (and elsewhere). You will see there have been lots of recommendations and mandates - and apparently a lot of our federal agencies are using the metric system already.

A chronology of the metric system (http://lamar.colostate.edu/~hillger/dates.htm)

[Spider]

So, what you're saying is that the metric system has already been established here and that all it needs is for the American public to start using it.

Well, whaddya know?!

[nealrm]

I don't agree that we need a time by which all are changed. The two systems can exist side by side. You can have a sign for 40 mile an hour right next to a sign for 65 km per hour. They mean the same thing. If you go over either one you are breaking the speed limit.
No, at some point you will need to remove any sign that has not been upgraded. True the signs mean the same thing, but at some point MPH will go the way of the cubic as a term a measurement. At that point if a driver where to stumble apon one of the old signs they would either misread it as KPH, ignore it or do something in between. Confusion on a road is not a good thing. That maybe is very long term but it should be addressed.

True metric and English units can be converted back and forth. However, the reason to move toward the metric system is to improve efficiency and make things easier. Having 2 primary systems in place would make matters worse not better.

As for getting the government to help move to the metric system; Setting and maintaining a standard set of measurement units is one of the primary tasks assigned to the federal government upon its creation. It was one of the first tasks the new government undertook.

[Spider]

[FONT=Tahoma]As for getting the government to help move to the metric system; Setting and maintaining a standard set of measurement units is one of the primary tasks assigned to the federal government upon its creation. It was one of the first tasks the new government undertook. According to Bill (see above) this has already been done. It's the America people who have not acted accordingly - y'know - you and me and everyone else.

[cbscreative]

I see Sean (Blacktalon) made a pass through here, it's been a while. Sean, like others here from Canada could offer more insights on the hwy signs. Anyone else here driven in Canada since the early 80's? I don't know the year they actually switched, but road signs there have been in metric for 3 decades now. Same with gas stations, prices are per liter. If our neighbors to the north could switch out the signs, why can't we? I like Spider's suggestion of using unemployment funding to cover it. Besides, with full implementation, the hurdle of doing the conversion becomes unnecessary. You don't have to convert to miles if we no longer use miles.

Sean, perhaps you can answer this. The last time I spent any real time in CA talking to people was in the early 80's. Even though the signs were in km, people still "talked" in miles. I imagine by now, that's not much of an issue. If you ask someone how far to the a certain point, I would expect they'd answer in km. If we switch the signs here, the Imperial thinking should be pretty much gone in a couple decades. We're just extending the pain by dragging our feet.

Frederick, I'd love to take your advice fully. Next time someone asks me for directions, I'll give it to them in metrics. When they ask my weight, height, etc. for official documents, I'll just give them the metric number. For added fun, I won't specify it's metrics. I'm officially switching whether everyone else does or not. I'm glad to know I no longer have to wait for the official word on full implementation. Now I will be kilometers ahead of everyone else when it happens. That is very liberating.

Now if you all will excuse me, I need to start a petition demanding that weather reports be issued in metrics.

[Harold Mansfield]

Frederick, I'd love to take your advice fully. Next time someone asks me for directions, I'll give it to them in metrics. When they ask my weight, height, etc. for official documents, I'll just give them the metric number. For added fun, I won't specify it's metrics. I'm officially switching whether everyone else does or not. I'm glad to know I no longer have to wait for the official word on full implementation. Now I will be kilometers ahead of everyone else when it happens. That is very liberating.

Now if you all will excuse me, I need to start a petition demanding that weather reports be issued in metrics.

That reminds me of the last time I was in Mexico, we were laying in bed one morning watching TV hoping to get a quick weather update for the day. Of course it was in Celsius. We both looked at each other as if we realized that we were dumb Americans that had no idea how to understand something a simple as what the high and low temperature of the day was anywhere outside of our own country,,,and I got up and opened the patio door, walked out side and looked at the sky to get my weather report.

That's sad.

[billbenson]

Temperture and gallons are really the only oddball things to convert that comes to mind 3.79 litre's per gallon; temperature is a more complicated formula, but you just remember a couple of benchmarks. If 90 F is hot to you, that's 32 C. Freezing is 0 C which makes sense. If you think 70 F is a nice day, thats 21 C.

But a kilometer is a little over half a mile. Thats pretty easy to get a feel for quickly.

[nealrm]

For non-scientific work use this to estimate from F to C. Degrees in F -32. Then divide in half. The other direction take double the degrees C and add 32. THis is NOT exact, but it will get you into the ball park.

I used to go between CA and the US about once a year. Really changing from one unit system to the other was not hard. In general that hardest part was determing how to change the speedometer on the rental.

On the weather side, I found this works. Stick you hand outside - if it gets wet it's raining, if it get white stuff on it then it's snowing, if you cannot see it and your wristwatch is missing you are in LA. :)

By the way, I really like the idea of my weight in kilos. It just sounds so much better.

[Steve B]

I had a friend from England who told me his weight in "stones". He was a full-grown man that only weighed a few stones (if I remember right). That would be a really easy way to lose weight!

[huggytree]

our culture likes feet and inches...why change? i dont want to

were not the same as the rest of the world...were better...

why do we have to be the same?

[Harold Mansfield]

our culture likes feet and inches...why change? i dont want to

were not the same as the rest of the world...were better...

why do we have to be the same?

Wait a minute! So plumbing is not metric? Pipe sizes, tools, fittings, none of it? Oh man, that would take a hundred years to get all of the piping in this country converted. Actually there would be no reason to do it until something broke. And some stuff would never be converted. and if you can't convert one pipe, how would you fit an ajoining pipe?
You couldn't do it. We could never do it.
Wow, some of the plumbing in places like Philadelphia and New York has to be 80 years old or more.

[cbscreative]

our culture likes feet and inches...why change? i dont want to

were not the same as the rest of the world...were better...

why do we have to be the same?

Are you forgetting that feet and inches have nothing to do with America? The reason we have feet is a carryover from an English tyrant who obviously had big feet. According to reports, everything about him was big...including his arrogance.

[nealrm]

our culture likes feet and inches...why change? i don't want to

You might like feet and inches but most people think they suck. I never talked to anyone that thought the trying to determine 2 sizes up from a 9/16 bolt was enjoyable or found it fun to determine how much wire was need to make 16 runs of 5' 2 3/4". Of course handling fractions is a notoriously pleasant past time.


were not the same as the rest of the world...were better...
And we are going to prove that by keeping a system based on the body measurements of a king we overthrew. A system that no one that does any type of technical work wants to use. A system that has no logical connections between the different units.

The reason we haven't changed is social inertia. The system is passed from parent to child. The child then grows up and teaches his child the same thing. Until that chain is broken, we wont get ready this antiquated system. It requires work to move away from the familiar, and many are too lazy to do it.

[billbenson]

If you go to buy carpeting, and you need 100 square feet, the carpet costs $10 per square yard, could you, even given these simple numbers, ever figure out how much you'll pay? Which is more, 2 quarts, 5 pints or 36 fl oz? How many pints are in a gallon? How many pounds are 200 ounces? Which drill is the larger - the 13/64, the 1/4 or the 5/32?


There is nothing 1/2 inch about a half-inch pipe. In fact there are different standards for pipe sizes depending on whether it is water pipe, gas pipe, or electrical conduit. Half-inch water pipe is really 16 mm inside diameter and 18 mm outside diameter. Neither of these comes close to 1/2 inch.

Metric 4 US - Why Metric is the Better System (http://www.metric4us.com/whynot.html)

Metric 4 US - Why Metric is the Better System (http://www.metric4us.com/why.html)

[Harold Mansfield]

I'll be honest. I could care one way or another. I don't see how by the end of a year, I won't be proficient enough, just like I learned this system. It's not like I go around everyday measuring stuff. I think I'll still be able to buy the right sized milk, fill the car up with gas, and the weather here is pretty predictable...it's hot. and it's gonna be hot tomorrow.

[Business Attorney]

our culture likes feet and inches...why change? i dont want to

were not the same as the rest of the world...were better...

why do we have to be the same?

Unfortunately, while about 90 percent of the comments so far in this thread have been pro-metric, I'd wager that the vast majority of Americans are like huggytree - we don't care what the other 6.5 billion people on the planet do, we are "better."

With that mentality, how can we ever get off this merry-go-round? Our system is "better" because it is OUR system (even if it came from a despotic ruler under whose shadow we no long toil).

We should at least stop calling it by its root names (the imperial system or English measurements) and call it by its proper name U.S. Customary units, since England no longer uses it and should not be cursed with our stubborn adherence to the system.

[billbenson]

I don't think so David. Tradesman like Huggy or carpenters would object because they measure stuff using the old system all day long. Their tools that they are accustomed to are designed around it. It would be a pain for them to change. As I said earlier, I would think the elderly would object as well. But just about all college graduates will be used to it. Most industries are using it. Any international products purchased are spec'd in the metric system. Much of the pvc pipe used here is imported. It is no doubt ordered in mm not inches. I don't see a movement for a sudden conversion, but it will keep slowly taking over.

[huggytree]

i dont know of any piping materials in Metric.

all the pvc, copper is made is USA or Canada and is in Inches

i use pex water pipe which is very popular in Europe and probably made their (i think the kind i use is German)...guess what? its the same outside diameter as copper sizes WHICH ARE IN INCHES....all water piping materials are exactly the same outside diameters so you can use the same pipe hangers....all have different inside diameters though...copper is thin wall-1/2" ID and pex is very thick -closer to 3/8" ID

no one in construction likes Metric...they have plumbing classes for metric...everyone takes it because its a 1 hour class w/ a 4 hour credit....some take it every year to get part of their 6 credits to hold their license.

who cares where it came from? why is that an issue....its now part of OUR culture....and it will be for all of us for the rest of our lives...maybe our grand kids will switch, there's no chance anyone living today will....until you change the construction industry you wont change the USA....

for me as a plumber it would be a nightmare marrying 'new' metric pipe to old existing piping....you cant change sizes without a cleanout, so we'd have cleanouts all over our houses...or maybe we'd have 2 types of materials 'old' 'new'....id have to drive a semi truck to work to hold all the different parts..

maybe Europe should switch.

[billbenson]

Your missing the point though huggy. The pipe sizes don't change, just what you call it 1/2 " is 127mm. When US distributors buy 1/2" pipe from overseas, they are probably specifing 127mm pipe. They are the same thing.

I think it will change more quickly than you think, but thats just an opinion. More likely driven by contractors receiving drawings in metric measurments than anything.

[huggytree]

1/2 " sounds easier to memorize than 127mm.....there's no comparison...now apply that to every other size...id have to memorize tons of obscure numbers...when 1/2" is as simple as can be...

i can look at something and know how many yards or feet it is....why relearn it?

what we have works.....if someone sent me a drawing in Metric i wouldnt be able to scale it...id go to home depot and ask for a metric tape measure...they'd say 'never heard of a metric tape measure'...ive never seen one......does one exist in the USA?....never happen in my lifetime...construction guys are as old fashion as they come...i constantly look for new parts and methods, but many guys want to use the same materials all their lifes...in some area's of Illinois they still use cast iron for drain pipe....they are in the 1940's there...and you think they are going to use Metric some day? they'd still be using a horse and buggy if they could

[billbenson]

Take the example of what is happening in the auto industry, huggy. Most cars now have metric nuts and bolts. I'm sure a lot of mechanics hated it, but I've never heard one complaining about it in recent years. I have a 94 ford pickup. I'm pretty sure it has a Mazda engine in it. When Ford did that in 94 or whenever that happened, the mechanics had no choice but to buy a metric set. Today most tool sets in auto parts stores have both. But if you ask a mechanic now to hand you a 10 mm socket, he's not doing any math. He knows about how big it is. And that was a change that was not forced on the auto industry, it was a decision by ford and others to use foreign parts. It just kind of evolved.

While I agree with you that most tradesman won't want to change. "Why change from a system that works". But outside factors, like the auto industry, may come along and create that change. Maybe not? Can't predict the future.

By the way, the made in the USA stamp only means about 80% of the product has to come from the US. It's more complicated than that. I had to do some research on it for a client a while back. But it does mean that some metric parts will creep into the Made in the USA products you use and recommend to customers.

[nealrm]

First 1/2" = 12.7mm not 127mm. If you received it from CA or europe they probable sent you 13mm pipe or they had special 1/2 pipe for the US. You would not be able to tell the differance visually. As a point of referance, look at the pixels on your monitor the difference would be smaller than those.

Obscure numbers what obscure numbers? Sizes in metric are 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15mm ... Compare that to the english system that runs 5/16, 11/32, 3/8, 13/32, 7/16, 15/32 - Those are obscure numbers.

As for buy a meteric tape measure. I would change stores. It's really, really easy to find tape measure with both. Personnelly I use metric for work around the house. It is a lot easier to remember I need to cut a board to 163.4cm than 5' 4 5/16".

[cbscreative]

I was kind of waiting for someone to bring up automotive. Since the 1980's nothing that I'm aware of has been "standard" measurements. If you don't have metric tools, you can't work on cars any more. Maybe the construction trade will be the slowest to adapt, but if the ones who refuse go out of business, that's perfectly OK with me. If their business is built on something so fickle as refusing to convert to metrics, then being put out of business by those willing to adapt to a better measuring system is fair play. Holding on to an antiquated measuring system that has nothing to do with quality workmanship is just plain silly.

I can understand most of the arguments surrounding the loss of craftsmanship in the trades. In fact, I agree with it for the most part. The current business climate is against skilled tradesman, and that is sad. But anyone who holds tightly to inches and feet does not deserve the right to have their trade protected. That has nothing to do with quality or principle. Buy new wrenches and get over it. You've got way bigger concerns than the measuring system. Fighting that is a waste of energy, and I think you will lose. It would be better to embrace metrics and choose your battles based on real threats.

Really, what's more important? If I choose steel pipe, I get rust. If I choose PVC, I get chemicals leaching into my water. If I choose copper, it's the safest option. Does it really matter what the diameter of the pipe is, or which kind of pipe I choose? Metrics has nothing to do with that. Why spend your energy fighting a measuring system? Embrace metrics and let the other tradesmen have their Trix. There's no point in joining their silly mentality.

[huggytree]

CBS...the trick is marrying metric sized pipe from 2050 and existing pipe from 1900....code issues dont allow down sizing anywhere, so you'd have to upsize the the next size up in Metric...upsizing will mean a cleanout and also repiping everything from that upsized pipe downward...that isnt going to happen, so you'd have to use standard sizes....which means i stock both standard and metric in my van...

the auto guys dont do measuring or sizing of things do they? dont they just pick the bolt off their table (whatever size it is) and screw it into the car? there isnt really a comparison to the home building trades where everything is measuring and sizing..

get the 5percent of the population who does home building/remodeling on your metric side and you've won....by now it may be down to 3% with the economy..

i dont plan on changing since i dont see a reason to...stick with what works....would metric work better? im not sure it would....of all the problems i have with my job my tape measure isnt one of them. i think you'll find that attitude with all 5% of us

[Spider]

You make an excellent point, Dave. Here's what I read into what you said. As the country goes metric (It is happening but slowly) your trade, and others like it, will slowly divide into two camps - those that only work on the existing infrastructure (using imperial sizes) and those that only work on new infrastructure (using metric sizes.) Those, like yourself, who work on existing structures will find two things -

1. Metric parts that are the exact same size as imperial parts - IOW the same manufacturing machines making the same pipes they always made but now they are called xxxmm instead of x x/x" - there will be no down- or up-sizing and so no change in your work, other than calling the same part by a different name.

2. If no suitable metric size is available during a repair, upsizing will be needed and all following pipe in the run will have to be changed, and possibly the fixtures, too. Thus a $500 repair becomes a $5,000 repair. What does that mean? It means more work for you and more profit.

Those who really want to get rich will abandon the the small piece-work projects - a few bucks here and a few bucks there - repairing old imperial-sized work, etc. - and will go fully-metric, only metric, and concentrate on new major projects. The companies that do this will clean up - because they'll have no competition All their competition will be hanging onto imperial sizes and will be mired with heaps of competitors fighting for the small repair jobs.

One of the things to remember about change is that it creates opportunities - and the bigger the change, the bigger the opportunity. The only question that remains is - Are you going to sieze the opportunity?

[Steve B]

Maybe a better comparison is when cars starting getting computers and fuel injection. I remember a lot of mechanics whining about having to buy diagnostic computers to do things. Some of them just got out of the business rather than investing in the new equipment (and learning the newly required skills), some embraced it and invested in it and carried on, and others tried to stick it out and probably suffered a slow business death as they had to turn more and more customers away.

In the plumbing world the transition is going to take a very long time. It will probably take over a hundred years or more before all the current plumbing and it's imperial sizing goes away. Think about how long the PVC drain lines and PE tubing is going to last.

[Harold Mansfield]

That's what I was saying earlier. How can plumbing change with so many millions of miles of pipe out there that no one is going to lay eyes on until it needs to be repaired and how do you apply a metric replacement to connect to a imperial measured pipe...since all plumbing is a system of connections?

Cars only last so long, but pipes are old and we aren't likely to dig up pipe just to replace it with it's metric counter part...along with every pipe that connects to it, and every pipe that connects to that... and so on and so on.

[billbenson]

The thing is, if half inch pipe or other sizes is currently being made in china or wherever, it will simply be renamed. More logical sizes may be added, but the pipe size will be available as long as there is demand.

[Spider]

If 1/2" = 12.7mm, 13mm pipe can be used. The difference is 0.3mm which, if my calculations are correct is about 1/100 (one hundredth) of an inch. Probably closer than manufacturing tolerances, anyway. It wouldn't take more than a weekend to change the plumbing trade, not to mention the entire American economy, because all we would have to do is change the names of things, not the things themselves.

[billbenson]

Do you think that applies to carpentry as well Spider?

[Spider]

I don't see why not, Bill. Plywood is already manufactured in mm, whatever label Home Depot and Lowes put on the rack. And tolerances for lumber sizes are certainly not accurate to 1/100 of an inch. 4" x 2" is more like 3 1/2" x 1 3/4" these days. I'll bet all the screws and nails are metric converted to imperial for the diehards.

If the Weights and Measures Department were to offer a bounty of $100 for every imperial tape measure turned in, we'd be metric in the building industry by Thursday morning!

[Steve B]

Your manufacturing tolerance argument is not correct. If something is stated to be 3", but it's acceptable for it to be between 2 127/128 to 3 1/128" - it's not O.K. to re-name it 3 1/128". If you do, you would also have to change the acceptable range to 3" to 3 1/64. Without changing the manufacturing process to target the new 3 1/128" measurement you would then have a lot of waste.

I also don't think re-naming things to their metric equivalent is truly converting to metric. I'm guessing other parts of the country actually manufacture and use 13mm pipe and not 12.7mm pipe.

[Spider]

I accept what you are saying, Steve, perhaps I didn't explain myself properly. The re-naming I suggest would be to the actual mm equivalent - a 1/2" pipe, manufactured as a 1/2" pipe, would be called 12.7mm pipe (because that's what it is.) As a separate observation, I figured 13mm pipe is within the manufacturing tolerances of 12.7mm pipe so this 13mm pipe could be used instead of the 12.7mm pipe without causing conflict with the plumbing codes.

[nealrm]

Frederick, I'm going to agree with Steve. Just renaming items to metric isn't changing to the metric system.

[Spider]

Yes, it is. That's all the metric system is - a different way of measuring things. They are still the same things. They are just measured differently. Thinking otherwise is why people feel they cannot make the change. You make a big problem of something and you create your own difficulties.

[nealrm]

Frederick, you a technically correct. The only technical difference between metric and English system is how the pie is divided. However, in practice one of the key benefits on the metric system is that common items tend to be in whole units. Lengths, weights, volumes tend to be 10,20,30 instead of 3' 6", 1lb 2oz, or 1/3 cup. Just changing the names over to their metric equivalents would not work. In addition, changes names would not allow for standardization with other countries.

[billbenson]

What did canada do when faced with this problem? And in fact, we call 2x4's 2x4's even though the finished product isn't. I bet some rounding in the naming of things occurs.

The other thing that I pointed out above is that the machinery that makes pipes and other materials in other countries is almost certainly set up in metric units. They do a run of pipe and they set it at 12.7mm (or whatever it was). It just gets a different label.