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jamestl2
05-29-2010, 04:47 PM
Anyone here host their websites themselves? Or have in the past?

My hosting plan is expiring around the end of the year, and I figured I'd learn what I can about DIY hosting just to see what it'd be like. I understand that many seek out professional hosting either because they aren't as tech savvy and just want their site online, or they only have one site and don't use up many resources and it's just easier this way.

I own and operate several sites now however, and do have a decent idea of what I'd need tech-wise (Spare Computer, Apache, PHP installed, Broadband connection, a static IP, DNS hostname, etc.). And while I haven't had any problems with my current host, they've been great so far, I'd just like to know what other options are out there. I'm not too big on having my files and databases out of my control.

Is hosting your website yourself a smart business move? Or is it a bigger hassle than it's worth? Are there too many maintenance checking issues and security holes to be aware of all the time?

What have your hosting experiences been like?

vangogh
05-30-2010, 04:16 PM
I've never tried it myself, but always thought it would be interesting. I wouldn't recommend to most people that they set up their own server in their home and host from there. You might be in a good place for it though.

The obvious downside is the time you're going to have to spend maintaining the server you set up along with the hardware and software costs if any. Also be aware that many ISPs have it in their contract that you can't serve web pages over their connection. They could force you to spend more on your internet connection.

Where I think this could be especially good for you is the learning. At the very least you're going to learn a lot about running a server. That will open up some business possibilities for you. You could purchase a dedicated server that you parse up for clients. Basic reseller stuff, but you'd be able to offer support instead of having to go to the host where you purchased the dedicated server.

You'd be able to offer server management services. I think more and more people are seeing the benefits of VPS or dedicated servers, however many of those people don't want to manage the server and would be willing to pay to have their servers managed.

And who knows, maybe the server you set up from spare parts ultimately becomes the first server in a big datacenter you're running a few years down the line.

If you have no interested in server stuff as a service you can offer later then I don't think there's any business advantage to running your own server. The cost to have some else host it will be less than the cost (mostly time) of running it yourself. Even then I wouldn't say you shouldn't go ahead and try. If you're interested in learning how then by all means you should.The worst case is you'll decide you don't want to host things yourself and you'll simply go back to paying a monthly fee for hosting.

billbenson
05-30-2010, 05:06 PM
I've seen posts on this before. The problem isn't setting up the hardware and software. Its connecting to the internet. If you get any kind of traffic at all, most hosts will shut you down from what I've seen.

Harold Mansfield
06-01-2010, 09:41 AM
Besides the obvious..having to learn the tech side of it, I always assumed the bigger issue with self hosting to be security.
Not just being responsible for your own website security, but security of the actual server.

Protection, back ups, redundancies, maintenance, and protecting the actual box against power surges, outages, theft, fire, water damage and so on.

As long as I can envision (even if it's wrong) my sites on a rack in some static free, clean room, where all of the techs wear white lab coats and carry clip boards...I have piece of mind.

But I don't know if I could live without the protection of knowing that I have backups and redundancies and a dedicated team working security to protect me against malicious attacks. Too scary for me at the moment.

I'm moving to Dedicated Server as we speak, so I imagine that technically, I'm one step away from self hosting, but I don't see that happening anytime soon.
I'd like to know how it works out James.

jamestl2
06-02-2010, 05:45 PM
You'd be able to offer server management services.

I never really planned on offering server space to clients or anything. The only reason (in addition to the learning experiences) I'd be looking at starting up a server is to host all of my own current sites, and perhaps a few in the future once I have the time.

I wonder how much the total cost would come down to?



most hosts will shut you down from what I've seen


I'm not quite sure what you mean, Bill. How can a webhost "shut you down" if you're hosting the site yourself? Or are you referring to ISP's?


I always assumed the bigger issue with self hosting to be security.

That sounds like one of the biggest issues to me too.

Some large companies that host themselves and own tons of dedicated servers (like Google for example) can afford to host themselves and pay security administrative teams to keep an eye on the server 24/7, watch for malicious attacks, etc. Something smaller business wouldn't have the luxury of.


I think I might try setting up a test server, with only a test site somewhere down the line just to see what it's like.

billbenson
06-02-2010, 06:00 PM
I'm not quite sure what you mean, Bill. How can a webhost "shut you down" if you're hosting the site yourself? Or are you referring to ISP's?

My error James, I meant ISP. If its a practice site, I doubt you would have any problems, but you probably would if you get any kind of serious traffic. Its not the service that an ISP is providing. Data Centers have fiber pipes from people providing these services. I bet the ISP's have a fine print clause on it as well.

vangogh
06-02-2010, 06:02 PM
How can a webhost "shut you down"

I think Bill meant your ISP will shut you down. You use a lot more bandwidth hosting over their network and most (if not all) ISPs have language in their contracts prohibiting you from hosting sites unless you opt for a more expensive plan.

In all honesty you're not going to save much money hosting yourself. The time alone to manage everything will cost more than the price you pay to someone else to host your sites. Self hosting is something you should see more as a learning experience, which is fine for its own sake, however any monetary benefit will come from passing on what you learned to clients in some fashion.

Looks like Bill beat me to the post.

jamestl2
06-02-2010, 06:04 PM
That's something I'll probably look into also once I actually set it up :).

My family's ISP is currently Roadrunner, but once I actually find work and get my own place, I think I'll look into an ISP that's web development and web management friendly.

EDIT: Funny that we all posted within 5 mins. of each other.

I figured that since I'm already spending around $60 a year on hosting, even more if I'll want to upgrade my package, hosting yourself might come cheaper, and many of the major online presences own plenty of their own servers.

vangogh
06-02-2010, 07:21 PM
You're probably going to have to spend more like $60/month to get an ISP to let you host your own sites. For one or a few sites they may not notice, but I'm sure they have wording in the contract that you aren't allowed to host over their network.

$60/year is not a lot of money. If you have a business you can afford $60/year. Also consider if you spent a single hour working on the server that you wouldn't have to if you paid someone else to host your site, you've lost out.

There are some valid reasons to try do it yourself hosting. Saving money for your business really isn't one of them.

jamestl2
06-02-2010, 07:36 PM
Alright, thanks for the info Steve. Didn't think it'd cost that much for an ISP with permission.

I know $60 isn't a lot, but if I need to upgrade my plan in the future, to hold more sites, more data, etc. then the fees would increase as well, which is a reason why I was curious.

Harold Mansfield
06-02-2010, 07:51 PM
Where I am, a corporate account ( cable) with a static IP address and dedicated 15 mbps priority upload and download is $72 a month.

I'm paying $75 a month for residential 50mbps download, but still wavers around 5-10 mbps upload. And the download is actually usually around 42mbps because I don't have a priority account.

If I had a corporate account with 50mbps download, I can still only get a dedicated 15 mbps priority upload, but it is around $200 a month.

To run your own box, I would imagine that you would need the higher, dedicated, upload speed.

$60 a year for hosting? That is cheap. it would cost you more than that o run your own box just in ISP charges. You definitely need cable. You can't do it on anything else or else you may as well stay with the hosting you have and just upgrade.

jimr451
06-07-2010, 08:34 PM
I have a background in sys admin, and used to setup and run a hosting platform for an ISP back in the 90's.

I would never host my own sites, for the following reasons:

1. Disaster recovery. Most server farms these days are using high availabilty servers - disks are mirrored or RAID, hardware is hot swappable, etc. Also, they stock extra parts, and have people available to swap faulty equipment 24 x 7. Plus they have monitoring systems to page / alarm them when a server crashes, or has a hardware problem. They also have fire suppression systems, cooling systems, UPS (diesel powered), etc. If your AC goes out on a hot summer day, for example, you'd have to shut down your server or risk problems. Plus, if you are on vacation, or just gone for the day when your server crashes, how long will your sites be down?

2. Backup / restore - Even though I advise my clients to always keep a backup of their sites locally, the big hosting providers do daily backups, and again, have redundant systems to minimize downtime during a failure. If something does crash, they can get the sites back up and running quickly.

3. Security - virtual and physical. Keep in mind, operating systems, server software, etc. are routinely coming out with security patches, which need to be applied quickly once discovered. Rebuilding a kernal on your *only* server is pretty risky stuff. There's also firewall management, DOS (denial of service) attacks, etc.

In short, you have to be jack-of-all-trades to manage your own server, and with just one outage, any savings would be out the window.

-Jim

Harold Mansfield
06-07-2010, 10:15 PM
I have a background in sys admin, and used to setup and run a hosting platform for an ISP back in the 90's.

I would never host my own sites, for the following reasons:

1. Disaster recovery. Most server farms these days are using high availabilty servers - disks are mirrored or RAID, hardware is hot swappable, etc. Also, they stock extra parts, and have people available to swap faulty equipment 24 x 7. Plus they have monitoring systems to page / alarm them when a server crashes, or has a hardware problem. They also have fire suppression systems, cooling systems, UPS (diesel powered), etc. If your AC goes out on a hot summer day, for example, you'd have to shut down your server or risk problems. Plus, if you are on vacation, or just gone for the day when your server crashes, how long will your sites be down?

2. Backup / restore - Even though I advise my clients to always keep a backup of their sites locally, the big hosting providers do daily backups, and again, have redundant systems to minimize downtime during a failure. If something does crash, they can get the sites back up and running quickly.

3. Security - virtual and physical. Keep in mind, operating systems, server software, etc. are routinely coming out with security patches, which need to be applied quickly once discovered. Rebuilding a kernal on your *only* server is pretty risky stuff. There's also firewall management, DOS (denial of service) attacks, etc.

In short, you have to be jack-of-all-trades to manage your own server, and with just one outage, any savings would be out the window.

-Jim

Pretty much everything that scares the crap out of me about even thinking about hosting my own sites.

I don't want to be responsible for all of that stuff, I'd be a nervous wreck.
Seems like DIY is something that is feasible when you have people that can run it and a secure, well equiped location

vangogh
06-07-2010, 10:24 PM
When I read about all the redundancies and security measures data centers have it also makes me want to run screaming from hosting my own sites.

Really good points Jim. Sometimes when I read about all the security measures I wonder what it is they're securing. Obviously it's important stuff since so many businesses rely on their sites being up, but it comes across like they're securing the President.

Harold Mansfield
06-07-2010, 10:41 PM
I remember I once had an issue and the tech told me it was ...I don't know ..something..but I remember when I was on the phone with him, I remember him saying "...we just need to swap them out and restart..." and the rest sounded like calculus to me.

Then he said, "Should be fine now. Try it" and I remember thinking to myself.."So you just 'swapped' something out...just like that huh?"

I am ecstatic that there are people that will do this for you.

Can you imagine how less populated the internet would be if everyone had to host their own sites?

Nothing would work at 100% and nothing would be secure. I certainly wouldn't be in business.

It would be tragic. Just TRAGIC!

vangogh
06-07-2010, 11:07 PM
There would be very few sites online.

For what was actually my last job working for someone I was in the server room, surrounded by a couple dozen servers for the company. It was always freezing in there as you might expect. We didn't have the big security other than the usual card to get inside the building.

I'm always talking to tech support about my VPS. I do know enough to be able to talk to them, but they'll give me advice and most of it goes right over my head. I usually have them email me the info too. The emails go over my head at times too, but at least I get all the proper terms I should use for searching.

jamestl2
06-09-2010, 09:19 PM
Thanks again for all the suggestions guys, interesting points.

I suppose DIY hosting (for business reasons) might be better if your company is larger and contained more data, or could just afford a server administration team, whom could actively monitor and update the servers on a regular basis

And in most SB cases, it's usually just a few of you running and managing the business by yourselves, or solely, as in my case.

vangogh
06-10-2010, 02:44 AM
For a larger company it could make more sense to host everything in their own data center, though even then their are probably a lot of factors beyond size to consider.

I'll still stand by my original comment. I think you could try DIY hosting just to learn about it and it will give you skills that will help when it comes to web development. You may even change your mind about offering it as a service. People like myself and Harold are moving to VPS and dedicated servers, but neither of us is super comfortable managing servers. There are companies that will manage our server for a monthly fee.

jimr451
06-10-2010, 07:46 AM
A few years back a company I worked for had space in a data center.

The building had concrete pilings all around the outside (in case of a truck bomb). It could withstand a 747 crashing into it (not sure how they knew that, but it was the claim). It had redundant internet pipes coming in, redundant power sources (connected to different grids as i recall), etc. No external windows, thick doors (bulletproof), etc.

If you were not pre-approved to get inside, with Id, you couldn't get past the front desk. Once you got to the server room, each area was caged off, with cameras everywhere.

Anyway, running a hosting server is a specialty, but it's also a commodity. Back in 1996, we charged something like $45 / month for hosting (no cpanel, database support, etc. back then, cgi and 25MB storage was all you got). Now you can get very reliable hosting for $10 / month, or less. That's really a bargain.

-Jim

vangogh
06-10-2010, 10:35 AM
I remember reading an article about data centers who's servers were kept a certain height above the ground to make sure they could survive a flood. The article made them seem like the safest and most secure buildings on the planet. Not something you do on your own with one or two servers.

I remember the days of $50/month hosting too. Today hosting isn't anything expensive for a business. It's one of the less expensive things you'll have to pay for.

billbenson
06-10-2010, 03:54 PM
I remember reading an article about data centers who's servers were kept a certain height above the ground to make sure they could survive a flood. The article made them seem like the safest and most secure buildings on the planet. Not something you do on your own with one or two servers.

I remember the days of $50/month hosting too. Today hosting isn't anything expensive for a business. It's one of the less expensive things you'll have to pay for.

Could always put the servers in the attic? :)

Harold Mansfield
06-10-2010, 07:07 PM
I always think about worst case scenarios...I'm crazy like that.

The security of having another company host my sites means that no matter what happens to me or my situation..as long as there is money on the card to pay the bill, my sites will stay up.

Natural disasters, health issues, legal trouble (You never know), or just going on a week long vacation. I don't have to worry that some issue is going to come up and I need to be there to restart the server or some junk.

It's the freedom of not being constantly tied to monitoring a server and the security that up time has nothing to do with me.

Even if I were homeless, as long as I have $100 a month...my sites stay up.

I would have to be an expert and have top notch equipment and facilities to even think about taking a chance of messing up the income from my sites.
I think it only makes since if your needs are greater than any company could handle, such as if you were Twitter of Facebook.

rebelnetworks
06-10-2010, 09:29 PM
well I guess this is my area of expertise :)

to get a server, or even a PC, get a dedicated IP from an ISP or even try to run with dynamic DNS of some sort and put it in your basement is great idea .. simple enough

you wont save money - and the damage to your business or reputation can be great - how.

the pc, internet connection is the easy part, even configuring it

how and what time of firewall will you use?
how can you stop a rook kit from being installed on your system from sending out thousands of emails as a relay server
how much time do you think a month you will spend to install patch updates, security updates, and try to keep all the server tools up to date?
installation of SSL certificates, and other encryption if required?
your upload speed on a typical DSL is not good - if you get a surge of traffic your site will time out.
who will run your DNS servers, same PC or outside?
etc
etc etc

saving of for a basic site 7.95 a month -- Hmm

if you want to have your own server and play - find a near location of a colocation company
typically 1U costs about 50 - 100 dollars a month and includes power, internet, and bandwidth that includes power when you sit in the dark at night
that includes bandwidth when your dsl is faulity for that 1 hour a day you never noticed cause you were not online, that is space and noise saved so you can sleep at night :)

if you want to try your own hosting - lots of hosting companies offer colo and lots have racks full of people who carry over their 1U servers and rack mount then on the rack - its a lot better than doing it at home.

vangogh
06-11-2010, 12:03 AM
Could always put the servers in the attic?

Funny. Hopefully the attic is strong enough to support the cooling system needed.

Harold I think about the same thing. If something happened to me my sites would stay up until the bank stops my cards. Who knows when that happens.

@rebelnetworks - yep. DIY hosting isn't going to do your business any good unless your business grows large enough where it makes sense. Even for a smaller business it could make sense depending on the nature of the business. That's not most of us though.

I'll say again though, that I think it could be an interesting hobby project or a learning experience. Maybe not with a live business site, though.