View Full Version : Free vs Premium themes, what sets them apart and what could be improved?
jamestl2
05-23-2010, 06:42 PM
What separates premium themes from regular ones? Advanced features? Graphics? Support?
Why do some people pay top dollar for premium themes when there's a wide assortment of free themes available. I've checked out a few of the paid themes, and while they do look nice, I've seen professional-looking themes that don't cost a thing.
Don't get me wrong, I know there's plenty of poorly developed, bland looking cheap themes out there too, but there are good ones freely available as well.
The reason I ask is that I've recently been working on a few themes of my own (far from finished of course, but I do have the general theme idea started).
I'd like to incorporate advanced features and such into my themes, to set them apart from the regular themes, but I can't decide on what I'd like to include.
What's lacking in current WP themes that could eventually be implemented? Anything you'd like to see that doesn't quite exist in WP yet?
Harold Mansfield
05-23-2010, 07:33 PM
I never use free themes anymore. Ever.
I usually tend to like very involved themes with a lot of display options. It is probable that on any project I am going use every available piece of related content that I can on the home page, Video, Feeds, Nice Images, Social Networking, and of course Advertising.
Regular themes that just concentrate on blog posts don't do it for me anymore.
I see a big market for Multi User/Buddypress compatible themes, especially with the upcoming release of WP 3.0 since it will combine the functionality of MU and Single user...so I really believe community themes are the future of Wordpress.
jamestl2
05-23-2010, 10:45 PM
I have noticed a few free themes that do offer "Advanced Options Pages, like a few of the ones at the top of the Theme Directory (http://wordpress.org/extend/themes/), they aren't that common though. I've never purchased a premium theme before, which is why I'm not entirely sure what advantages they have.
One of the things I've noticed about "involved" themes with many design features, styling options, etc. is that while it may have easier aspects for the non-tech savvy people that use them, it can become increasingly difficult to pinpoint problems developers may have from a coding perspective (speaking from personal experience).
Take the Thesis theme for example. It's built around an entire custom framework, and for those whom don't have first-hand experience working within the Thesis environment, they'll have to learn a whole new set of rules and functions to get even one minor change to work properly.
Not saying that more display features is necessarily a bad thing, but the more complicated the theme gets, the more issues and bugs can potentially arise. I wonder if the trade-off is worth it? Make themes easier to customize for users, or developers?
You make an interesting point about WP becoming more community oriented. One of the themes I'm working on allows someone to use WP as their own personal forum. I wonder how many features coming to WP 3.0 will include inspiration from MU, and whether MU will still be the right solution for some of the more community-oriented sites already out there?
Also, about Wordpress' concentration, I think one thing WP devs could consider is restructuring the database to include more than just "Posts" and "Pages". While both of those features do well for blogging and and a few basic "about-like" pages, there could be so much more. Right now, all they have is a table for blogging (wp_posts), and it includes the "pages" as well. I could see each different content type (posts, pages, and even newer types, like audio, video, etc,) getting it's own DB table. It makes sense from a content management perspective.
Harold Mansfield
05-24-2010, 12:24 AM
One of the things I've noticed about "involved" themes with many design features, styling options, etc. is that while it may have easier aspects for the non-tech savvy people that use them, it can become increasingly difficult to pinpoint problems developers may have from a coding perspective (speaking from personal experience).
Actually, many are not that easy to use for non-tech people. You need to know a few things to get them set up properly and working the way they are supposed to.
Even with the documentation that most come with, there is still no way a novice could set most of them up.
Take the Thesis theme for example. It's built around an entire custom framework, and for those whom don't have first-hand experience working within the Thesis environment, they'll have to learn a whole new set of rules and functions to get even one minor change to work properly.
Everyone talks up Thesis, and I think it's a nice theme, but nowhere near as "Godlike" as everyone makes it out to be.
No matter who you buy from, unless you purchase from the same designer, you have to learn a new set of rules. There is no standard for functions, tags, custom field names, design principles, dimensions, or what functions go in which files.
It's different every time I get a new theme, I have to learn a new designer and his programming skills or lack of.
Not saying that more display features is necessarily a bad thing, but the more complicated the theme gets, the more issues and bugs can potentially arise. I wonder if the trade-off is worth it? Make themes easier to customize for users, or developers?
I usually buy where there is support and I check out the support before I make a purchase.
I mostly buy form the same designers, or design houses these days, and I have a developers license for another, so I don't venture out too much from the same 3 or 4 providers.
You make an interesting point about WP becoming more community oriented. One of the themes I'm working on allows someone to use WP as their own personal forum. I wonder how many features coming to WP 3.0 will include inspiration from MU, and whether MU will still be the right solution for some of the more community-oriented sites already out there?
Wordpress 3.0 and Single user WP will merge and there will be only one Wordpress. So 3.0 will have the capability to be a multi user, multi blog platform, or host a blog community in conjunction with using Buddypress.
Also, about Wordpress' concentration, I think one thing WP devs could consider is restructuring the database to include more than just "Posts" and "Pages". While both of those features do well for blogging and and a few basic "about-like" pages, there could be so much more. Right now, all they have is a table for blogging (wp_posts), and it includes the "pages" as well. I could see each different content type (posts, pages, and even newer types, like audio, video, etc,) getting it's own DB table. It makes sense from a content management perspective.
You do have a Media library now that can include video and audio and Buddypress offers the extra community features that you may be talking about that expand WP's capability tremendously.
vangogh
05-25-2010, 11:04 AM
James in general premium themes are usually developed better than free ones. Not that you won't find very well coded free themes or poorly coded premium themes. Having worked with both, premium themes tend to be better.
Frameworks are something different though. You are going to have to spend time learning the framework, but isn't that what you had to do with WordPress too? WP had a learning curve, but you thought it worth learning. There are some very good free frameworks too. The idea with most frameworks is you're not going to edit the framework itself, but instead build a child theme for it.
Getting back to premium themes I think you're thinking about them in the wrong way as far as how to build one. The first question should be who are you building it for. Who do you expect will buy the theme?
A WordPress developer is probably looking for a theme that will make their work quicker. They're going to use the theme as a starting point for developing their own designs. They likely aren't afraid to open up files and edit them or even better build a child theme.
A typical end used probably doesn't want to edit files directly. They more likely want an options panel to make a few changes very simple for them. They probably aren't going to radically change the layout of the theme, but would like to be able to upload a new header image or change a few colors or fonts. Taking it further end users are very different. Some may need an image gallery, others may be more interested in using WordPress as an ecommerce solution.
Think first about who you're building the theme for and then learn as much as you can about those people, their needs, and what they want in a theme.
Harold Mansfield
05-25-2010, 11:11 AM
The one thing I would add is, I have purchased premium themes where the designer seemed to purposely make it difficult to edit the theme files.
Functions seemed to be hidden, instead of out in plain view and the files did not seem organized at all, when you open the files it looks like a big lump of code with no indicators of what is what, or where anything is. No structure.
Most people that are used to Wordpress have no problem opening files to make changes, and can skim a file to find the lines of code they are looking for...when each file is just one big massive paragraph of code, it makes you want to throw the theme out and use something else.
Those are very frustrating to work with and I would never buy from those designers again.
Free theme designers tend to do that a lot, or hide links in the theme without telling you. In the beginning, I have downloaded plenty of free themes that looked great in the demo, only to apply them and see an encrypted footer with sponsored links. That alone is what got me to stop using free themes in the first place.
vangogh
05-25-2010, 11:48 AM
Most people that are used to Wordpress have no problem opening files to make changes
I completely disagree. Most people who use WordPress are not developers. They're ordinary people who never want to see the actual files running WordPress or the theme, let alone edit them. They use WordPress because it makes it easy for them to publish content. Many would like to make some changes, but they prefer to do that in some kind of WYSIWYG way or by turning a checkbox on or off.
Harold Mansfield
05-25-2010, 11:52 AM
I guess I overstated that. You are right , most people would rather check a box, but you should design for both kinds of users, or at least make your files readable and somewhat organized for both kinds of users.
vangogh
05-25-2010, 11:59 AM
Which is what I was getting at in my post above. I don't think you have to design a theme for everyone. I agree you should always code your files well and make then easy to edit, but it really comes down to who are you building the theme for as far as what features you include, etc.
It's no different than developing any other product. You have to decide who it's going to be for and what those people specifically want. Making it easier for someone to make changes through an options panel makes it more difficult to find every bit of code controlling the theme directly in the files. There's a tradeoff and you have to decide which is more beneficial to the specific people you're developing the theme for.
jamestl2
05-25-2010, 03:10 PM
The first question should be who are you building it for. Who do you expect will buy the theme?
Well, I already had the groups of people in mind when I decided I wanted to build the particular theme. That was the first thing I thought of.
Although the groups I thought of that may e interested in the themes I'm creating may be pretty broad. How specific should you narrow your intended group down to?
Also, some of the premium themes I noticed didn't really seem to be geared towards anyone. Like browsing through Theme Forest (http://themeforest.net/category/wordpress?sort_by=average_rating&type=files&page=1&categories=wordpress) for example. Not many seem to have a concentrated target audience, or anything really remarkable or unique or about them. Yet many still have sold plenty and garnered high ratings.
Everyone talks up Thesis
I didn't care much for Thesis either, but a few of the clients I did customization work for use it. And even after learning the few bits I needed to know to edit the appropriate changes, it still didn't always produce the results desired.
themes where the designer seemed to purposely make it difficult to edit the theme files.
That's another thing that occurred in the back of my mind as well, only I'd figure the opposite was true. Developers may want to purposely make it difficult to edit the free theme features so the person using the theme would either have to seek paid support from the original developer for customization, or be required to purchase an upgraded, better organized theme where the plan costs a small fee.
Harold Mansfield
05-25-2010, 03:47 PM
Now see I think Themeforst has a nice selection of themes. I have purchased from there quite a few times and you get a wide variety of layouts and a wide variety of coding styles...it's really a crap shoot what you are going to get when you open those themes up..developers from all over the world and different languages and broken English seeping into the docs...it can be challenging.
I think the target is definitely webmasters and developers, not novice or amateur bloggers.
Many of the themes that I have purchased there could not be set up by the average person who doesn't do this frequently.
Just recently one of my clients purchased a theme there...the thought was to get something simple to do a basic landing page in their native language for an advertising deal...but something that they could do themselves given the language needs...and Oh Yeah,, they needed it in an hour.
It was a simple theme, but as soon as they saw that the CU3 slider was populated by XML, that was it, they were done. Sure it only took me 5 minutes to do, but regular people don't know that stuff...so I say that theme forest is definitely for us..not for the average Joe.
billbenson
05-25-2010, 06:29 PM
Eborg, by now you must have quite a number of themes and can edit them in code. Other than graphics, can't you modify themes you have to meet your needs in most cases?
Harold Mansfield
05-25-2010, 06:43 PM
Eborg, by now you must have quite a number of themes and can edit them in code. Other than graphics, can't you modify themes you have to meet your needs in most cases?
You mean do I have enough themes to keep me going without having to buy new ones?
Not really. since I started on this Wordpress MU kick, the single user themes don't really work well with those, and I'm already paying the developers membership for new themes and plug ins, which is totally worth it.
I do have a few themes that I paid for and used at one point and now are just sitting in a folder. Every now and then I'll bust one out and reuse it for something else.
I finally got smart and got a developers license for one of the theme houses and it really does pay for itself.
I also play it by the book. I never use a theme twice if I haven't paid the proper licensing. Most single purchases are for one use.and at $35-$80 a pop, and then to change your mind...started getting kind of wasteful.
The licenses and memberships are the way to go.
vangogh
05-25-2010, 07:49 PM
How specific should you narrow your intended group down to?
Up to you. The more you narrow it down the more you can build the "perfect" theme for that group, but the less people there are in the group to buy the theme. The narrowest group leads to a custom theme. You have to find a balance. I'd say if the group you've defined isn't helping you determine what features not to include you should probably narrow it down more.
You can always expand things later.
I'm not crazy about Theme Forest. To me they all seem like copies of the same thing. One person finds some new trendy thing to include and then everyone follows. I've looked through their themes and most don't impress me.
As far as Theme Forest themes not being geared toward anyone specific it's because the site has a large distribution network. Enough people are looking through their themes that they don't need to be tailored to any one group. You don't have that distribution network. You're likely counting on word of mouth, but unless your theme stands out from the crowd in some way the word won't spread all that far.
I think Thesis' success is mostly marketing. Look at the people behind it. Some of the most connected people in internet marketing, seo, and social media circles. The theme itself doesn't offer anything more than plenty of free frameworks do and there are several paid themes that are better.
Developers may want to purposely make it difficult to edit the free theme features so the person using the theme would either have to seek paid support from the original developer for customization, or be required to purchase an upgraded, better organized theme where the plan costs a small fee.
Sadly I think this happens more than it should. Pretty sleazy if you ask me. I understand the problems associated with selling themes, but developing them in a way that makes them hard to use in order to sell support is not the right solution.
I finally got smart and got a developers license
If you buy GPL themes you shouldn't have to deal with single and developer licenses. In fact any theme that offers both is going against the spirit of WordPress. I'm not suggesting they can't offer their own licenses, since the issue has never really been decided. Just saying there are plenty of great themes that don't require two licenses.
Membership sites are a different issue.
Harold Mansfield
05-25-2010, 09:12 PM
If you buy GPL themes you shouldn't have to deal with single and developer licenses. In fact any theme that offers both is going against the spirit of WordPress. I'm not suggesting they can't offer their own licenses, since the issue has never really been decided. Just saying there are plenty of great themes that don't require two licenses.
Membership sites are a different issue.
Well, it's not like I buy both licenses. I'm at the point now where if I see a theme I like and they have a large catalog that is equally impressive, it's more cost effective to get a license.
Some licenses are out of line though. I've seen some people asking $500 and up for a developers license for one theme....I've been so turned off by that that I didn't even purchase a single use license.
Right now, I'm pretty stocked up, I have over 130 regular Wordpress themes (including everything on Wordpress .com), around 20 that I purchased and am not using, an unlimited Woo license, and the WPMUDEV membership that includes tons of premium plug ins, and great tools...I guess I have to rethink Bill's question, maybe I am pretty much all set for now...but I'm a theme junkie. It doesn't mean I won't see something and want it...and I am definitely an impulse buyer. I suspect there are many more out there like me.
For James, I think the pricing is what draws attention. I have purchased themes for $80 and was happy, but when I see a great theme, with nice options and the price is $20-$40, sometimes I'll get it just to have for later, or the price will make me want to change another site over to the new theme.
Of the themes that were in the $80 range, the designer also had an extensive catalog. I've never paid that much from someone with one or 2 themes in their portfolio.
I meant to add, I think you should target Wordpress webmasters, pro bloggers, developers. I don't see the market in targeting the average Joe that has a word press site, or is thinking about one, but has no experience or skills. First of all, they don't even know how to find themes, second of all, it could take them forever to pull the trigger because when you are new, you can theme shop forever...and if you are only a part timer, that could take weeks to make a decision, however...
..new bloggers (different from a a do it yourself-er) is a good market..if they have any money, the will buy almost anything that they think has some SEO or Adsense benefits.
People like me that do Wordpress all of the time, but don't have the tech knowledge or desire to design their own are a good market and will usually have more than one Wordpress site and thinking about others...and if there is money in their Pay Pal account, will buy on the spot.
I have started sites just because the theme gave me an idea. That's who I think you should hit.
If you are going to target the new user or "do it yourself-er", you have to make sure you have an outlet where they are, to promote it...they won't be hanging out in the regular webmaster places, they will likely be places like this.
Harold Mansfield
05-26-2010, 11:30 AM
I'm not crazy about Theme Forest. To me they all seem like copies of the same thing. One person finds some new trendy thing to include and then everyone follows. I've looked through their themes and most don't impress me.
Well, I will admit that in the last 6 months, the designers have been doing the Cu3er slider (http://www.progressivered.com/cu3er/) thing to death.
Every other theme for a while was a portfolio theme with the Cu3er slider top center, or top left...it was getting kind of old.
If you look through them, you can find some gems...not all by no means, but it's a good place to browse, you will definitely see new stuff...that's usually the first place independent designers post up their stuff.
Harold Mansfield
05-28-2010, 01:27 AM
I think Thesis' success is mostly marketing. Look at the people behind it. Some of the most connected people in internet marketing, seo, and social media circles. The theme itself doesn't offer anything more than plenty of free frameworks do and there are several paid themes that are better.
I just looked at the Thesis website. had no idea that
1) It's $87
2) You can't remove the footer link
What kind of crap is that? How do people praise this thing so much?
vangogh
05-28-2010, 04:46 PM
Harold with the licenses all I meant is there are themes that don't have an increased price for a developer license and that are just as good as the ones that do. Of course, just as good, is pretty subjective. Naturally if you find a theme or themes you like that do have both a single and developer license and use one or more of them a lit, it obviously makes sense to go for the developer license. Their hardly expensive when you consider what you'll end up using them for.
In some ways it comes down to what you specifically want to do with the theme too. I prefer to create custom designs so I'm not usually looking for a design in a theme. Several of the free frameworks and even the default theme that comes with WP can often suffice for me. Not true for everyone though.
Well, I will admit that in the last 6 months, the designers have been doing the Cu3er slider thing to death.
That's the kind of thing I was referring to. I think what happens at Theme Forest is developers look to see which theme(s) have sold the best and then basically copy those themes. Someone will create something new that sells and the rest will follow quickly failing to recognize that it's often the uniqueness of the first that led to the sales.
What kind of crap is that? How do people praise this thing so much?
Thesis has powerful marketing behind it. I don't think it's necessarily bad as a theme, but it's nowhere near as good as they like to claim. I could point to several free frameworks that do as much.
For example the wonderful seo in Thesis is basically the same as any of the free seo plugins you can add. The difference is they're included in the theme as opposed to being a separate plugin. That's still nice for some people as not everyone finds it so easy to install and activate a plugin. It's hardly anything so special though.
If you look at the marketing side of Thesis and who's behind it you can easily explain it's success. The people behind it are very well connected in throughout internet marketing, seo, and social media circles. In a very short time they had an affiliate program running so much of the recommendations are motivated by the money. Thesis gained a very early market lead, though other themes are now competing and catching up.
Harold Mansfield
05-28-2010, 05:31 PM
Harold with the licenses all I meant is there are themes that don't have an increased price for a developer license and that are just as good as the ones that do. Of course, just as good, is pretty subjective. Naturally if you find a theme or themes you like that do have both a single and developer license and use one or more of them a lit, it obviously makes sense to go for the developer license. Their hardly expensive when you consider what you'll end up using them for.
Well my big thing right now is, I needed a lot of nice themes and I needed to be able to use them without limitations so the unlimited licenses were the perfect solution.
jamestl2
05-29-2010, 04:34 PM
Well, I haven't really decided on how much I'm going to charge for the themes yet, nor how potential customers will have access to their availability, since they're not finished. However, since I don't have that many coded ATM, I think it'd be best to just stick with one-time fixed pricing.
developing them in a way that makes them hard to use in order to sell support is not the right solution.
I'm not a fan of "intentionally coding bad" either, and it's definitely something I don't plan on doing, however that is the reality in many situations though.
I've noticed that many (for both free and premium) theme designers also often use the same general layout and design scheme, then they change an HTML element or two around and alter few CSS rules and call the themes "different".
2) You can't remove the footer link
While I'll put the footer links in there, in case anyone is curious about who designed the theme, but I certainly won't force anyone to keep it there, especially if they're going to pay for the theme.
It's their money, they should be able to modify the theme they paid for anyway they see fit.
I don't think it's necessarily bad as a theme, but it's nowhere near as good as they like to claim.
Same here, one of the technical reasons I think it's as popular as it is, is because it offers plenty of design options without having to understand the code behind it, and that appeals it the average Joe that doesn't want to learn HTML, CSS, etc.
vangogh
06-07-2010, 10:45 AM
I've noticed that many (for both free and premium) theme designers also often use the same general layout and design scheme, then they change an HTML element or two around and alter few CSS rules and call the themes "different".
That's still different. It might not be different to a large degree, but it's still different. You often see themes that are basically the same, but one has say a dominant blue color scheme and one has a dominant red color scheme. Each is going to appeal to different people. It's smart to build a theme where with a few changes you can have another theme to sell.
one of the technical reasons I think it's as popular as it is, is because it offers plenty of design options without having to understand the code behind it, and that appeals it the average Joe that doesn't want to learn HTML, CSS, etc.
Plenty of other themes offer the same thing and often in a better way.
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