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Spider
04-08-2010, 09:19 AM
There seems to be a rash of membership sites popping up (or am I late in noticing?) What's with that?

Just recently I have been receiving spam "newsletters" - or maybe I subscribed once upon a time. Instead of an article (aka sales pitch), the "newsletter" contains the first paragraph of several articles. When you click on the "Read more" link, you are taken to a webpage that asks you to register or log in to read their article.

Does this ruse really work? So every time I want to read an article (that they spammed me about in the first place) I have to, effectively, subscribe to their future spamlist by "joining" their member site.

I notice, too, (by watching the address bar) that on the way to their webpage, I pass through the host site (Weber, Constant Contact) where they no doubt collect my e-mail address for future spamming.

I am on the verge of closing my e-mail accounts (all of them) and going web-less for a while to see if life might be a little less cluttered and inundated.

vangogh
04-08-2010, 10:31 AM
Membership sites exist because producing quality content is difficult and the people who create it have every right to charge for it. What's more is that people are willing to pay for it so why should content creators give it away free. It's a legitimate business model, not much different that producing a monthly magazine or writing a how to book.


or maybe I subscribed once upon a time.

Which is why these newsletters aren't spam. At one point you agreed to get it. The person sending it to you has no idea you now don't want to receive it unless you tell them. If you don't want to continue receiving the newsletter click the unsubscribe link.

Don't blame the person for sending you something you agreed to receive. I realize you may not want the newsletter now, but that doesn't make it spam.


Does this ruse really work?

I don't know that it's a ruse. Apparently they made something interesting enough to you in the email itself in order to get you to click. Maybe you weren't interested enough to pay for the article, but other people probably are. The idea is that at some point you signed up for something demonstrating an interest. You're now receiving an offer based on that interest. You may no longer be interested and won't buy. Other people are still interested and will buy.

Yes, Aweber and Constant Contact are tools for managing email lists. They both make it easier to send out the email and track how well the email is performing. When you clicked it didn't put you on someone else's list it let the person who wrote the email see that their email received a click. It's no different than using Google Analytics to track what happens on your site.

Spider
04-08-2010, 11:12 AM
Nice technical explanation, VG, and I thank you for it. Oh, if the world was as perfect as we want it to be.

I have found by experience that unsubscribing from e-mail lists serves to increase the amount of spam I get. Shouldn't be, but is. True, people I unsubscrbe from stop sending me, but several others, previously unknown, suddenly start apearing in my inbox. Shouldn't do, but do. Is there any connection? Shouldn't be, but the coincidence is a little too frequent to be simply coincidence. I am not convinced that eWeber and Constant Contact (and others) are as innocent as you believe them to be.

Spam used to stand for UCE - Unsolicited Commecial e-Mail. It used to be totally frowned upon if not actually illegal in the wild west days of the early internet. Now spam as been legalized by the CANSPAM acts (or whatever the laws are officially called.) But they are still spam - unsolicited commercial e-mail. Just because they are now legal doesn't mean we have to change the name. Spam is spam, and clearly there is some spam that is legal and some spam that is illegal. But it's still spam.

And it's still annoying, whether the perpetrators have a right to do it or not.

As for paying for the content or paying for membership - the sites I have recently been spammed by offer free membership and free read of the article if I just register - which, of course, means, if I give them my e-mail address. So, it's not a question of the tremendous expense of producing their "quality" content. It's all about collecting more amd more e-mail addresses to do more and more spamming.

I believe it is counter-productive in the long run. But, maybe no-one is interested in the long run anymore.


Oops! Went off too much on spam. It was my intention that this thread be about membership sites, and the efficacy thereof, rather than just another thread about spam.

dynocat
04-08-2010, 11:19 AM
I notice, too, (by watching the address bar) that on the way to their webpage, I pass through the host site (Weber, Constant Contact) where they no doubt collect my e-mail address for future spamming. Unless I'm mistaken, Weber, Constant Contact, and other legitimate email marketing programs require an unsubscribe link in any email you receive through them.

You might want to check out this site, Return Path (http://www.returnpath.net/commercialsender/):
As an email sender, your reputation is your most important asset. And every email you send either enhances or detracts from the value of that asset. If your emails are routinely blocked, marked as spam, or delivered to unused mailboxes, they’re damaging your reputation. And a diminished reputation hurts more than just your pride. It means you have to spend more and more money to get the same results at the inbox. A depressing bit of algebra if ever there was one. Of course, it's a membership site! :)

Patrysha
04-08-2010, 11:42 AM
Actually Aweber and Mailchimp are really vigilant with their lists and make their users verify where they got addresses from if they import them. They do take spam seriously...though wasn't overly impressed with what I saw of Aweber's handling of their database being compromised, but overall they are serious about making sure everything is done by following the rules.

Now Constant Contact wasn't as diligent when I used them, if I recall correctly...

But I highly doubt any of the major players (or any of the minor ones really) would have anything to do with spam...getting the emails delivered is their bread and butter and to do that they need to remain whitelisted and in good standing.

And the rise of membership sites...well that is what many gurus/leaders are teaching right now as an income generator. The thing about things like this becoming a trend is that people who don't know what they are doing jump in, ignore advice, ignore best practices and essentially put together a shadow of the project as it could have been.


It's pretty much what has happened with a lot of online practices over the years...article marketing and press release marketing come to mind. Something works, it gets taught, and then people mess it all up by not listening to the guidelines about quality and it all goes downhill...and you begin to need to sift through the garbage copycats.

Edited to add: BTW all of the legitimate providers will have a report as spam link within the email. That will get you off the list too but it should be used judiciously because if you click that the list provider will suspend accounts. You have a certain percentage of allowable spam reports (because there are ppl like my husband who sign up for stuff and then decide it's spam because it's easier to hit the spam button than unsubscribe so they do have an "acceptable threshold" limit on how many spam reports you are allowed before the list providers will crack down on you.

Harold Mansfield
04-08-2010, 02:22 PM
It's real simple Frederick. Eveyone has something to sell online. You do. I do. We all do.
Building a list of members increases your value to potential advertisers, both on your website and third party vendors that want to piggy back your targeted client list.
Lists of real live people are BIG business. They are the new "leads'.

That's how the web is. The more people that you can claim, the more you can make from advertisers. Same as T.V, same as Radio.

It has transferred over to Social Media now. More Twitter followers of Facebook Fans, means more money.
Of course in social Media you have to have staggering numbers to pull it off, but that is why Paris Hilton (who I wouldn't piss on if she was on fire) get's $10k a Tweet. Because she has 1 million mindless tween, teen and grown women with the maturity level of teens, following her every move.

It's all about advertising and marketing. Always has been since the first newspaper was etched out on animal skin.

Spider
04-08-2010, 02:22 PM
...And the rise of membership sites...well that is what many gurus/leaders are teaching right now as an income generator. The thing about things like this becoming a trend is that people who don't know what they are doing jump in, ignore advice, ignore best practices and essentially put together a shadow of the project as it could have been.
.. It's pretty much what has happened with a lot of online practices over the years...article marketing and press release marketing come to mind. Something works, it gets taught, and then people mess it all up by not listening to the guidelines about quality and it all goes downhill...and you begin to need to sift through the garbage copycats.... That's much of what I feared, Patrysha.

I wish there was some way for the "victims" - the general public - to get out from under this pile. I know the story about the little boy happily digging away in a pile of manure saying, "With all this sh... there has to be a pony in here somewhere!" I don't think that applies too well to the internet!

But I have to look on the bright side of things. Now that I have discovered this, I know that creating a membership site is probably not worth the time and trouble. Must look elsewhere for my jollies!

billbenson
04-08-2010, 02:25 PM
If you receive a email from something you signed up for, the link in the email to stop getting spam is probably legit (depends on what you signed up for).

If you click on the link and the email is actually spam, you have just confirmed that your email address is valid and your email address will end up in the hands of every spammer in the world.

It sounds like you could improve your spam problem by better email management. First, on your web site, turn on the spam assassin filter. It will be under your email settings on your control panel. This will get rid of more spam than any antispam software on your PC.

Remember that when you send an email to someone, your email address may be added to their email program's address book. Many virus's harvest emails from address books. So if you send an email to a customer and it gets in their address book, if they have a virus that looks for emails, your email will get on spam lists.

Use different email addresses for specif things. Set up an email for newsletters only for example. In your email filter section of your email program, you can send all of those emails to a particular folder.

I have emails I use for internet forms etc including things like this forum. They are throw away email accounts if they start getting a lot of spam, and they don't go to my regular inbox.

On your web site, use some method to keep your actual email from appearing in the page source where email harvesting bots can find them. I have two "contact us" links on my sites. One uses JavaScript to hide the email (Its easy, if you want the code, I can post it). The other contact us uses a form which also can't be harvested.

There are a bunch of different ways you could set your email up. It really depends on how you work, so there isn't really a right and wrong way. Just be smart about it.

Since you mentioned membership sites: Good membership sites require good content that people will want to pay for. Consumer Reports online would be a good example. Its a very difficult business model to make money at. There are probably scam ish membership sites trying to get your 30 bucks and maybe you forget to cancel and don't notice the monthly billing on your credit card.

Use just one credit card for online purchases so you can monitor bad online charges. A little off subject, but anyway...

Spider
04-08-2010, 02:30 PM
Now you're depressing me again, Harold.

How does anyone get paid to Tweet? I'm not a member of Twitter, but I thought you just posted stuff and followed people and they tweeted stuff back and followed you... ad nauseum. How does one get paid to do that? Who makes the payments? I presume each tweet carries some ads in the righthand colum (or somewhere) and the advertisers pay Twitter, but does a celebrity enter a contract with Twitter Inc. to receive a payment for each post they make?

The mechanics, please. Purely out of interest.

Spider
04-08-2010, 02:51 PM
Thanks for your ideas, Bill, but I don't think I'm getting spam from my website. While my e-mail address is fairly prominent, all occurances are by ascii code in the html - mailto:frederick & #64;& #102;& #114;e& #100;& #101;& # ....etc.

I'm sure that's not foolproof but it seems to work.

And I can certainly see the sense of a site like Consumers Reports being a membership site and charging for their service. I am not one of the "Information-wants-to-be-free" nutters. And I'm sure there are others with valuable content on a continuing basis. But a membership site that is free to join and free to read their content is hardly likely to be anything but a spammer's site, I'm thinking.

billbenson
04-08-2010, 03:54 PM
That should hide your web email just fine, Frederick. Assuming all your emails are from your web sites, turn on the Spam Assassin on your hosts control panel though. I was getting over 500 spam emails a day and that knocked it down to about 20.

Spider
04-08-2010, 04:45 PM
That should hide your web email just fine, Frederick. Assuming all your emails are from your web sites, turn on the Spam Assassin on your hosts control panel though. I was getting over 500 spam emails a day and that knocked it down to about 20.What is spam assassin and what is a control panel? Well, I know what a control panel is but not the one to which you seem to be referring. I write my code on my website in Notepad - regular, uncomplicated html - then upload the files to the host's server by ftp. The only control panel I encounter is the control panel on the ftp application. I don't think that's what you mean, though.

Harold Mansfield
04-08-2010, 05:49 PM
What is spam assassin and what is a control panel? Well, I know what a control panel is but not the one to which you seem to be referring. I write my code on my website in Notepad - regular, uncomplicated html - then upload the files to the host's server by ftp. The only control panel I encounter is the control panel on the ftp application. I don't think that's what you mean, though.

Most hosting has some kind of control panel to admin your domains and what's on them. Within that control panel most hosts offer tools like Spam Assassin, Shooping Cart software, Wordpress and other software installs

Tools like Spam Assassin are server side apps, assuming that you are talking about the email address on your private domain.

For instance from my control panel I can add email addresses for all of my domains and websites, new domains, assign IP addresses, Single User WP one click install, DNS manager, SQL manager, Cron, Cloud Storage, all of my statistics. open a support ticket, add a shopping cart system, and a bunch of other stuff that I don't know what it does, or just haven't needed yet.

If you are talking about a free email account like Yahoo or Gmail, you still have spam settings, but you are limited to what they offer and keep in mind that many free email accounts come with a certain amount of spamming from the host. AOL and Yahoo used to be big on that.

Harold Mansfield
04-08-2010, 05:55 PM
Now you're depressing me again, Harold.

How does anyone get paid to Tweet? I'm not a member of Twitter, but I thought you just posted stuff and followed people and they tweeted stuff back and followed you... ad nauseum. How does one get paid to do that? Who makes the payments? I presume each tweet carries some ads in the righthand colum (or somewhere) and the advertisers pay Twitter, but does a celebrity enter a contract with Twitter Inc. to receive a payment for each post they make?

The mechanics, please. Purely out of interest.

No. The celebrities are sponsored by private companies like Make Up Companies, travel, all kinds of stuff and every now and then they'll Tweet stuff like:

"Hey guys, I just found this brand new restaurant on Melrose. The pizza is the bomb. (link)"
or
"I found my new lip liner. It never washes off (link)"
Or
"Where is there a Carl's JR in the valley, I really want a salad"

BAM! $10k.
Here is an article that covers a few of them that get paid to Tweet:
http://www.popeater.com/2010/01/05/celebrity-tweets-twitter/

It has nothing to do with Twitter. It's the same as them wearing a certain designer to an awards show and mentioning the name, or wearing a ball cap or T-shirt on T.V.

It's even worse than that. I get news and invitations to go to nightclub stuff all the time and celebrities are always "Having Parties" at the nightclubs out here. What's really going on is the club is paying the celebrities $20k-$100k just to show up, and get drunk, and take a few photos.
It's sickening.
Honestly I think Paris Hilton had 3 birthday parties at Pure last year. I think one was for her dog.

Spider
04-08-2010, 06:11 PM
(Spider stops chuckling in order to post!)

What a load of codswollup!

Even more reason to not use Twitter.





.... and Monty Python slowly takes over the world.

(...along with his two sidekicks, Pinky and Brain!!!)

Spider
04-08-2010, 06:15 PM
Re: the control panel -- I guess I am bypassing it by ftp-ing my completed pages directly to the host server.

Harold Mansfield
04-08-2010, 06:22 PM
Re: the control panel -- I guess I am bypassing it by ftp-ing my completed pages directly to the host server.

The 2 are not necessarily synonymous anyway. Every control panel doesn't have FTP and you can use any outside FTP to access your server without ever logging it to your control panel.

billbenson
04-08-2010, 09:39 PM
When you sign up to a host, they generally send you a link to get to your control panel.

If I remember from another thread, you had a host that offers site builder sites or something that I would generally recommend against. I forget. If that is the case, one of the games they play is not "really" giving you access and control of your site. You may have an admin panel that allows you to do certain things but not everything that a true control panel does. Some of the very big companies like Network Solutions and 1 and 1 play this game.

Business Attorney
04-08-2010, 09:51 PM
1&1 does have a control panel, but it their own proprietary control panel. It has basically the same functionality as cPanel, which is used by such hosts as Hostmonster or Blue Host. If you are used to cPanel and move to another hosting service that uses cPanel, the differences in the implementation are generally minor and easy to see. Using the 1&1 panel is completely different, so there is a learning curve.

Spider
04-08-2010, 11:47 PM
Anyway, a site like Consumers Reports with valuable content on a continuing basis makes sense as a membership site. OTOH, why would one want to create a membership site that is free? Why would one want to join a membership site that is free?

Harold Mansfield
04-09-2010, 12:01 AM
Anyway, a site like Consumers Reports with valuable content on a continuing basis makes sense as a membership site. OTOH, why would one want to create a membership site that is free? Why would one want to join a membership site that is free?

*Why did you join Facebook ? It's a free membership site. The numbers of members allows them to charge a good rate for advertising.
*This forum is a free membership site.
*Linked In is a free membership site.
*On your website, you have a mailing list sign up, basically asking people to become members of your newsletter distribution.

People join membership sites all the time because in some way it either entertains them or offers them something that they want, or need.

Spider
04-09-2010, 09:22 AM
Okay, I take your point regarding Facebook and LinkedIn - their exclusivity is for the purposes of confidentiality. I don't see SBF as being a membership site - one does not have to be a member to read the contents. You have to register to post, but that does not make the site a membership site. A mailing list is not a membership site.

A website that restricts its content to "members only" must offer exclusivity for a reason. Facebook and the like offer confidentiality. Paypal offers protection. Consumers Reports offer valuable material that they charge for. Even SBF's (and any other discussion forum's) partial membership is for moderating purposes - if they don't like what you post, they can ban you.

A website that restricts showing members stuff, that could just as easily be shown freely to the public are offering exclusivity for what reason? To collect your e-mail address so they can spam you? I don't care how entertaining it may be, free membership to collect e-mail addresses for spamming purposes is not something of which I would become a member. How 'bout you?

Harold Mansfield
04-09-2010, 10:19 AM
Okay, I take your point regarding Facebook and LinkedIn - their exclusivity is for the purposes of confidentiality. I don't see SBF as being a membership site - one does not have to be a member to read the contents. You have to register to post, but that does not make the site a membership site. A mailing list is not a membership site.

A website that restricts its content to "members only" must offer exclusivity for a reason. Facebook and the like offer confidentiality. Paypal offers protection. Consumers Reports offer valuable material that they charge for. Even SBF's (and any other discussion forum's) partial membership is for moderating purposes - if they don't like what you post, they can ban you.

A website that restricts showing members stuff, that could just as easily be shown freely to the public are offering exclusivity for what reason? To collect your e-mail address so they can spam you? I don't care how entertaining it may be, free membership to collect e-mail addresses for spamming purposes is not something of which I would become a member. How 'bout you?

Well...I look at it a little differently. I don't see email offers from a site that I signed up for as spam.

If you register an account with MTV and they send you new music and programming updates once a week is that spam?
How can it be? They sell music and they have programming that caters to a certain demographic so that they can sell advertising. That's what they do, and you signed up to know more so how are they spamming you?

It's only spam if you don't want it and didn't ask for it.

I don't believe in this whole concept that everything on the internet should be free.
It was never free before. Why should it be now?

News was never free. You either purchased a news paper (which had ads) or watched it on TV (which has ads).

Information was never free. If you wanted to know something you either purchased a book, got an education (that was either paid for with tax dollars or privately), or in the most basic case went to the library, which may have charged a fee, but is still supported by tax income.

It costs money to do stuff. The internet is not some coop where everyone works for the good of the web and all of their needs are taken care of like some Hippie Commune from the 60's, an Outer Limits Episode or the world of Star Trek.

Running websites cost money.
Writers cost money.
Gathering information costs money.
Offering free services, still costs someone money.
Free email and blog platforms..they all cost money to run..servers aren't free. Technicians don't work for free.Programmers don't work free. Equipment, power, maintenance,software...none of that stuff is free.

For all the "free" things that you can get on the web..someone, somewhere is paying for them.

Yes, unsolicited email offers is spam. No question. But if you thought the web was going to be some tranquil coexistence void of sales and advertising, where you can consume as much as you want on someone elses dime..you were lied to.

No other media in our history has ever been able to survive like that. Nothing in our society is actually "free". The bills have to be paid or what ever it is ceases to exist.

Am I tired of pharmaceutical emails ? Of course.

Am I going to bust a gasket over it? I did, and now I'm done.
It's not like the are knocking on my door with a vacuum cleaner every other day.

It's an email. Bid deal. Click your mouse and it disappears. You don't even have to get up to answer the door, the phone, change the channel or move your arms to open an envelope. You only need to move your wrist and apply slight pressure with your index finger to rid yourself of it.

And anyone using a free service like Hotmail, Gmail, Yahoo etc for email and complaining about spam..really has a lot of nerve.

YOU'RE NOT EVEN PAYING FOR IT. You don't have to use it. They don't owe you a spam free email service. I mean honestly, where do people get off complaining about something that they use for free and don't contribute anything to. All they do is consume it's resources, yet the minute the feel the slightest irritation about the service, they actually whine like they have a right.
Especially when they have the option of spending $10 and getting their own private email address, but didn't, and won't.

Email companies have really spoiled the internet user. People actually feel justified to complain about free stuff, that someone else is paying for, as if it was some kind of right guaranteed by the constitution.

That's not the way the world works and that's not the way the web works.
That's not the way anything has ever worked.

vangogh
04-09-2010, 11:32 AM
Free membership to collect e-mail addresses for spamming purposes is not something of which I would become a member.

That has nothing to do with "membership sites" You're associating them together, but they're two completely different things. That doesn't mean someone can't offer you membership into something in exchange for an email address. To some people that's a fair exchange. I want to join your site and as a price I'm willing to let you send me offers in the future. We know you don't like those emails and aren't planning on responding, but understand not everyone feels the same way.

As far as the why behind membership sites they offer things to both the person running the site and the person joining the site. For the person running the site it's a business model for creating content. It's a lot of work to create content and the people who create want and have a right to be compensated in some way. Think of it like a subscription to cable television. The subscription part is a big reason why people like the general business model.

For the person joining the membership site the promise is the content they'll end up paying for will be worth the money to join. What's going to make it worthwhile depends on the specifics of the site. Again thinking of cable tv I pay a lot of money each month to be able to watch the programs they serve. I'll be paying them again next month as well.

I've seen lots of different things behind membership sites. Some might as you to pay for the same kind of content they offer for free. Some are full educational courses on a particular subject. Some offer freebies you can download. Some are mostly just a private forum. People join them because whatever is offered is worth more to the person than the price of admission. It could be the information, it could be the stuff you can download for free, it could be coupons to other products, it could be the exclusiveness of the other members.

Why do people pay for magazines or better yet pay for a subscription to a magazine? Why do people buy books or pay to see a movie or pay to take courses at the local college? Why do people pay to join netflix of the book of the month club? People join membership sites for the same reasons they pay for these other things.

Spider
04-09-2010, 12:23 PM
Well...I look at it a little differently. I don't see email offers from a site that I signed up for as spam...I have already stated in this thread that I am not expecting the web to be free---
...I am not one of the "Information-wants-to-be-free" nutters...But I do believe that unsolicited means unsolicited, and anything sent unsolicited - that is to say, un-asked for - is spam. It may be legal (I've said this before, too) but legal doesn't make it not-spam. If spam is an troublesome word, let's just use unsolicited, instead.

If I buy a CD of Contemporary Jazz from you, Harold, then any e-mail from you pertaining to that one purchase is not spam, because it is not unsolicited. Being trained in sales, I will also accept your view that notifying me of future CDs by that same artist for a period - let's allow 3 month - to also be unsolicited. Actually, it is unsolicited because I did not ask you to keep me advised of future releases, but I am a salesman so I'll let it go.

What definitely is unsolicited and, indeed, unwelcome, is constant e-mails until the end of time about everything else you sell - CDs, DVDs, Wordpress themes, website development, community blogs, Las Vegas travel, hotels, comedy clubs and so on. Hopefully you don't do that but it feels like the majority of online businesses do. They may be within the law - which only served to legalize spam, anyway - but they turn their customers off. I say that with confidence because I have never heard anyone say they love the huge amount of unsolicited daily e-mail in their inbox. In fact, quite the opposite - it is a constant complaint whenever the subject arises.

Therefore, I summize that any company that abuses their customers in this fashion is not serving their own best interests.

But - also as previously stated - let's relate this to membership sites. A membership site that is free to join and free to access free content once inside is not covering their costs by being a membership site. Therefore, I can see no other purpose for the memebership requirements but as a basis from which to spam their members. I'd still like to be corrected on this if anyone can show otherwise.

billbenson
04-09-2010, 12:28 PM
Anyway, a site like Consumers Reports with valuable content on a continuing basis makes sense as a membership site. OTOH, why would one want to create a membership site that is free? Why would one want to join a membership site that is free?

This is a free membership site. You have to join to post a question...

Spider
04-09-2010, 12:31 PM
...As far as the why behind membership sites they offer things to both the person running the site and the person joining the site. For the person running the site it's a business model for creating content. It's a lot of work to create content and the people who create want and have a right to be compensated in some way. Think of it like a subscription to cable television. The subscription part is a big reason why people like the general business model...I agree entirely where there is a subscription fee charged. Each potential member can decide for themselves whether to pay. My questions have all along been about free membership sites offering material that is also free. The site owner is not charging for entry, for membership or for content - IOW, they are not recuping their expenses.

What purpose might they have for creating a membership site? Who gains what?

Spider
04-09-2010, 12:36 PM
This is a free membership site. You have to join to post a question...


...I don't see SBF as being a membership site - one does not have to be a member to read the contents. You have to register to post, but that does not make the site a membership site. ..In my opinion, as always.

Harold Mansfield
04-09-2010, 12:48 PM
What definitely is unsolicited and, indeed, unwelcome, is constant e-mails until the end of time about everything else you sell - CDs, DVDs, Wordpress themes, website development, community blogs, Las Vegas travel, hotels, comedy clubs and so on. Hopefully you don't do that but it feels like the majority of online businesses do. They may be within the law - which only served to legalize spam, anyway - but they turn their customers off. I say that with confidence because I have never heard anyone say they love the huge amount of unsolicited daily e-mail in their inbox. In fact, quite the opposite - it is a constant complaint whenever the subject arises.

Therefore, I summize that any company that abuses their customers in this fashion is not serving their own best interests.

Yeah, I definitely agree with you on this, I think we all do. However, when was the last time to actually read every word in the terms of service box before you actually ticked the "I Agree" button?

In many...many of those, there is a statement that says something like "That you agree to be contacted with offers from time to time from 3rd party vendors" or "our partners".

You see, no one ever reads those...they just want the free download or what ever it is. Think of how many of those you have checked in your internet life, without reading it, and you will have the answer to where spam comes from.
Technically, it's not spam most times...you just didn't read the Terms of Service,and if it's an email that you have been using for 10 years, then you have been signing up on lists for 10 years.



But - also as previously stated - let's relate this to membership sites. A membership site that is free to join and free to access free content once inside is not covering their costs by being a membership site. Therefore, I can see no other purpose for the memebership requirements but as a basis from which to spam their members. I'd still like to be corrected on this if anyone can show otherwise.

I guess it lies on how the site is managed. Yes, some site administrators are constantly sending emails and offers to their members. That IS spammy. But I don't see anything wrong with a related offer or 2 every now and then. as I said, most times it's in the T.O.S.

I actually just unsubscribed from about 10 webmaster and marketing newsletters that send an email every single fricken day. I ignored them for so long and finally I started to realize that they never let up and axed them

It's all in how it's presented and how it's run.

Amazon sends me emails all the time about special offers and price reductions of things that I have searched for.
I don't consider it spam, because I want to know and I like to shop.
If they sent me information about car insurance, I would consider that spam, even though technically, I signed up to receive what ever they see fit to send me.But Amazon is smart enough and successful enough not to do that.

If administrators of free sites are supposed to just sit back and pay the bills so other people can enjoy a free platform without any contribution, then the web is doomed.

Even the Conservative Newsletter ( that I subscribe to for the jokes) is constantly pitching Genko Biloba (no spell check for that one), and Ann Coulter books.

That's just how it is. Everything is an opportunity for sales.
If there was no possible opportunity to make money, none of the "free" things that we take for granted would exist: Blogger, Facebook, My Space, Twitter, Linked In, Google, MSN, Yahoo, You Tube, and so on.

These companies weren't created out of the goodness of someone heart, they were created to make money.
Money on the internet is ads and product sales...just like the rest of the world. But there is a right way to do it and an abusive way to do it that is completely wrong.

Business Attorney
04-09-2010, 01:13 PM
While everyone may have their slightly different version of the definition of spam, I agree with Spider in one respect. Even if I give a business my email and consent to receive "occasional" emails from them, some businesses seem to view the word "occasional" to mean on any occasion they please.

I signed up for emails from a local clothing store to alert me to sales. I get several emails a week, sometimes even every day. The same is true of some legal publishing companies, seminar providers and many other companies that litter my inbox with emails that are not technically spam. With some of them, I get so fed up with the volume of email that I unsubscribe, but often I just delete them or create filters that put them into a separate folder that I usually never even look at. Either way, a business which inundates me with email often has the effect that I never look at any of their emails.

Why don't businesses learn that just because they can send emails as often as they want doesn't mean that they should? In my mind, those businesses are simply legal spammers.

Harold Mansfield
04-09-2010, 01:21 PM
...a business which inundates me with email often has the effect that I never look at any of their emails.

Why don't businesses learn that just because they can send emails as often as they want doesn't mean that they should? In my mind, those businesses are simply legal spammers.
True words have never been spoken. A company that sends me emails all the time invokes the opposite effect. I don't read any of them and end up unsubscribing.

I agree, you would think people would learn. But they probably operate on turn over. It's a constant battle to gain new subscribers, instead of cultivating the ones that they have. They are always chasing their tail.

Spider
04-09-2010, 01:27 PM
Yeah, I definitely agree with you on this, I think we all do..Well, that's okay, then. I was beginning to wonder if I was alienating you, Harold!

Re: the Terms of Service. I wonder if they make them so long intentionally so that people won't read them. Even so, I have never said the offending marketers have to be banned from the internet.

Even if I sign such TOS and thus give them permission, it is still annoying, still turns me off the company, and they still lose me as a potential customer. They might be able to claim I gave them permission, that my signing the TOS was a request, and that it is my fault entirely if I get stuff I don't want - that isn't going to make me suddenly admit my complicity and send them an order because I feel quilty about complaining.

IOW, they are bound to lose, no matter how cleverly they word their TOS.

billbenson
04-09-2010, 01:31 PM
As far as Amazon goes, I never opted in for an email a day. It may be there in the fine print, but I don't want it and consider it spam I've never seen an email from them with something I want.

As for the frequency of email offers, frequency is really a sales issue. You want to keep your name in front of the customer. That's straight from sales 101. You don't want to do it in a manner that annoys the customer. One company that I buy dog related stuff from once or twice a year sends me a very occasional email. Thats smart, it keeps their name in front of me. What Amazon does just annoys me. In fact after I post this I'm going to add a filter to send the Amazon emails to Junk. I still buy from them, just don't want the emails.

Spider
04-09-2010, 01:38 PM
There must be something in the settings, because I am a regular at Amazon, buy from them often, search their site for information frequently, am an author with a book on Amazon and an affilaite of their marketing program - and I get very little e-mail from them.

Maybe they are just out to get YOU! :D

Harold Mansfield
04-09-2010, 02:07 PM
I am a weekly Amazon customer. I'll even buy stuff as mundane as socks on there, but I don't get that many emails from them...maybe 1 a week.
It has to be in the settings Bill.

Well, that's okay, then. I was beginning to wonder if I was alienating you, Harold!

Re: the Terms of Service. I wonder if they make them so long intentionally so that people won't read them. Even so, I have never said the offending marketers have to be banned from the internet.

Even if I sign such TOS and thus give them permission, it is still annoying, still turns me off the company, and they still lose me as a potential customer. They might be able to claim I gave them permission, that my signing the TOS was a request, and that it is my fault entirely if I get stuff I don't want - that isn't going to make me suddenly admit my complicity and send them an order because I feel quilty about complaining.

IOW, they are bound to lose, no matter how cleverly they word their TOS.

I completely agree with you Spider. Some people are just completely ridiculous with the emails and the newsletters. I think Internet Marketers are probably the worst of the whole bunch.

The other day, someone actually called me about signing up for an Internet Business Seminar. I forgot how annoying that was (telemarketers).
I'll take deleting a few emails everyday over that anytime. (as Our Gang used to say) "And how".

Although I did change my long distance company 5-t imes in one year when they were on that kick. I think I may have paid 2 bills that year, and gotten at least 2 or 3 rebate checks in the mail at $50 a whop . I was awesome ! I used to hope for the calls. They didn't even have to go through the script,. I'd just ask them, "What cha got?". You gotta hand it to them, they went out kicking and screaming.

Business Attorney
04-09-2010, 03:13 PM
Re: the Terms of Service. I wonder if they make them so long intentionally so that people won't read them.

I have drafted terms and conditions for many different clients with a wide variety of websites. I have to admit that the TOS are so long because of the lawyers. :D

billbenson
04-09-2010, 09:22 PM
I just took a look at my junk mail to see how often they send me something. It appears they send it 7 days after you looked on their web site. However, if you search for something different twice, say shoes on monday and computers on wednesday, you will to emails with product suggestions 7 days after the search. The more you search the site, the more emails.

Patrysha
04-10-2010, 12:35 PM
Why don't businesses learn that just because they can send emails as often as they want doesn't mean that they should? In my mind, those businesses are simply legal spammers.

It's just a theory, but I think it's because they either have a bad adviser or no adviser for their marketing. They only learn enough to be annoying but not enough to help their business...

Spider
04-10-2010, 01:09 PM
Spot on, Patrysha!

In truth, though - much as I support your plug for professionals at large - people will want to do things themselves, even if it is only to learn about the topic before hiring a professional as their business grows (and can afford it.) There is plenty of material out there to learn, not all of it as good as we might expect. So, I thnk, we have a combination of poor learning material and poor thinking skills - because it has always seemed pretty obvious to me that if I am annoyed my something in my inbox, other people (like my customers) are likely to be annoyed by it, too.

Patrysha
04-10-2010, 01:54 PM
In truth, though - much as I support your plug for professionals at large - people will want to do things themselves, even if it is only to learn about the topic before hiring a professional as their business grows (and can afford it.)

Yes, but if they are going to do it themselves they owe it to themselves and their business to LEARN from GOOD Resources.

I know it's an impossible goal to think the average business owner will make the effort, but I would personally like to spread that message to every single business owner I know whether they ever spend a penny with me or not. Because shitty marketing hurts us all...as business owners and as consumers.

And honestly, I think most business owners even check to see how inexpensive and valuable professional help can be...In fact, I know they don't. They'll spend $600 on a full page ad in a paper but won't spend $40 (and the 20 hours or so to read the resource and apply it the first time around to get it right) on a resource that can help them write and design an effective ad. They will spend over $2000 a month on a radio campaign and not bother spending the time or money...If they just researched a smidgeon they'd discover that if they shifted just a percentage of that over to online marketing they could likely double or triple the impact of their audio ad.

As a professional who happens to be a tightwad, frugal type at heart, I do fully support doing it yourself, and my best programs are ones designed to move clients on to doing it themselves.

But I was always taught "If you are going to do something, do it right" - and - "If you don't get it right the first time, figure out where you went wrong and try again".

I don't understand why business owners are so reluctant to seek out professional guidance for marketing when they have no problem doing so for accounting, taxes or legal matters. And very few people are willing to practice medicine on themselves and their own families...

Anyway I am ranting now.

I better go get back to work on my projects.

billbenson
04-10-2010, 05:44 PM
Well, in all fairness, what we are really talking about here is web marketing. I personally believe that most web designers are poor web marketers. There are several on this forum that are good at both, but I think that is unusual.

A business owner who decides to rely heavily on his web site for sales, may very well be good at marketing the old fashioned way, but not have a clue about web marketing. He often may leave that up to the professional web designer who may not have a clue about marketing.

And, both web design and web marketing are constantly changing. Its not really an easy subject to stay on top of.

Patrysha
04-10-2010, 06:31 PM
Actually in my experience most small business owners don't know how to do well with traditional marketing. There is often little planning or studying done in regards to marketing and they rely too much on the advice of marketers whose sole purpose is to sell them as much advertising as possible.

There is not often much regard as to whether that advertising genuinely works to the advertising venue.

Which is so sad, because all a newspaper (for example) would have to do is offer up a guide to effective newspaper selling and teach their advertisers how to measure the response rates. Or give a workshop on the same.

It would cost them peanuts compared to the potential returns for both the paper and the advertisers. Ideally, increasing response rates would increase the advertising spend on tests that produce a good return on investment and everybody wins.

billbenson
04-10-2010, 07:11 PM
Sad, but I guess that doesn't surprise me much Patrysha, given the rate of new business failures. I just think that without marketing knowledge, you have to be extremely lucky to succeed on your own.

Patrysha
04-10-2010, 07:24 PM
Yeah, I don't get it at all because the basics are all available for free at a local library or online. Nobody truly needs a pro if they're willing to put in the time learning...but it sure shaves a ton of time off the learning curve to hire a pro.

vangogh
04-12-2010, 10:45 AM
My questions have all along been about free membership sites offering material that is also free. The site owner is not charging for entry, for membership or for content - IOW, they are not recuping their expenses.

What purpose might they have for creating a membership site? Who gains what?

Frederick do you mind sending me a link to an example of the kind of site you're talking about? I want to make sure we're referring to the same kind of site. To me a membership site is one that charges a recurring fee for access to content. It seems that you're talking about a different kind of site and while that site may require you to register in some way, I'm not sure that it would be considered what is typically thought of as a membership site.

As far as someone requiring membership for something they give away free there could be all sorts of reasons why. One might be the person isn't doing it right and doesn't realize they should or could be charging money.

However assuming they do know what they're doing and that they are in it for the money then perhaps they're giving away the content in exchange for something other than money now in order to make money later. Maybe all they are looking for now is an email address. Now I know that any email they later send you isn't going to get you specifically to buy, but do understand others might. By registering you've indicated some interest and when taken together all the people who signed up would make for a much more targeted group to send out offers than sending those same offers out to the general public.

Spider
04-12-2010, 10:01 PM
...perhaps they're giving away the content in exchange for something other than money now in order to make money later. Maybe all they are looking for now is an email address. Now I know that any email they later send you isn't going to get you specifically to buy, but do understand others might. By registering you've indicated some interest and when taken together all the people who signed up would make for a much more targeted group to send out offers than sending those same offers out to the general public.IOW spam!

Which is what I suggested at the beginning of this conversation.

Sorry, VG, I cannot put my hand on the sort of site to which I refer. I tried searching but found only membership sites that charged a fee, and free membership sites that seemed to indicate that you would pay for the content once you were a member. I'll stay alert for any such original spam that leads to a free membership site with free content, and then post the URL.

Harold Mansfield
04-12-2010, 10:45 PM
So there is an easy to way to have it both ways.
If you want to sign up to be a member of a site, but you can't be bothered with the emails, just unsubscribe from the very first one.
You're still a member and they can't send you emails anymore.

Problem solved.

But this will only gut down on spam if you check every single thing that you sign up for and download on the web, including free tools, and upgrades of your current stuff.

vangogh
04-13-2010, 11:32 AM
IOW spam!

Umm…no. It's not spam. I understand you don't like receiving these emails and that they aren't going to get you to buy something. That doesn't mean you can redefine the word spam to include any email you don't like. If you've given someone your email address in exchange for something like a free download or membership to a site then you're giving permission to that person to send you email. If you don't want to receive the email then don't give it away in exchange for whatever was being offered.

While you aren't going to respond to the email think about what's going on. Instead of someone randomly marketing to the general public they're trying to better define a target market. Say your business revolves around cooking. Maybe you sell cookware, access through a membership site to cooking videos and other instruction, cooking books, etc.

One thing you might do is offer a free ebook of recipes in exchange for an email address. It stands to reason that someone willing to give you their email address in exchange for a book of recipes has an interest in cooking and is potentially in your target market. Not everyone who signs up will go on to buy something from you, but the overall % of people receiving offers via the email they voluntarily gave you will buy than had you made your offer to the general public.

Nothing I'm describing above is spam. If you didn't want to receive the email then you shouldn't have exchanged it for the free ebook. If you did and later decide you don't want to receive future emails then click the unsubscribe link at the bottom of the one of the emails you did receive. If you give away your email address and refuse to click the unsubscribe link don't blame people for continuing to send you email.

If you do come across one of the sites you're thinking about do post or send me a link. Thanks.

Harold Mansfield
04-13-2010, 01:46 PM
Frederick, as one who has a newsletter sign up on his website, as well as, one who sells books..I am really surprised that you are so intolerant of others on the web trying to make a buck or cover their expenses.

You mean to tell me that if 100k people sign up for your newsletter, you aren't going to suggest a book or something every now and then ?

At an average rate of 2%- 5% for untargeted opens, and 10% and up for targeted opens...you aren't going to ever sell anything to your newsletter people?

Ever?

Do you propose that you have all of the products and all of the information on the subject that they will ever need and they will never be interested in buying anything else on the subject because you will be giving them everything they need and that there is... for free.

And for those that are interested in buying products on the subject, you would rather them go to a competitor, than to send out any promotional or sales emails.

Is that what you are saying?
C'mon.

Tony Roberts offers you $1.50 per to send to your list and you are standing your ground and turning down $150k ?
Really ?

mcfarldr1
04-13-2010, 02:30 PM
I don't think anyone mentioned this, but I feel like creating a website with a membership encourages members to bookmark the page and visit it again. It kinda weeds out people who are just passing through, even though they can still see the information, they will be unable to post spam or other useless information.

Free memberships are nice because you can save that data and you don't have to re-enter it each time you log in and you don't have to pay to become part of the community, just like forums like this.

Harold Mansfield
04-13-2010, 02:50 PM
This discussion is particularly interesting to me since I am building a membership site at the moment. Different, I am offering a service rather than just information, but Spider is a tough cookie...I figure if I can understand his line of thinking and learn how to overcome his objections, then I can get anybody.

vangogh
04-13-2010, 04:24 PM
It kinda weeds out people who are just passing through, even though they can still see the information, they will be unable to post spam or other useless information.

Good point. I thought about mentioning this at some point in the discussion, but can't remember if I did. Take the forum here. We still get our share of spam, but it would be much greater if there was no registration. Membership also creates a selectivity. Even if something is free to join, it's a select group that takes the time to register and in joining you become part of that select group.


I figure if I can understand his line of thinking and learn how to overcome his objections

The thing is you might not be able to overcome Frederick's objections. He's very clear that he would consider the email you sent as spam and isn't likely at all to purchase from you. That's not a bad thing for either him or you. For you it's more about understanding someone like Frederick isn't going to buy so is there something you could do to keep him off the email list? Maybe making it easier to unsubscribe or automatically unsubscribing after a time. Maybe it's making it a little harder to subscribe in the first place. That would mean a smaller email list, but also a more targeted one.

Spider
04-13-2010, 07:29 PM
Umm…no. It's not spam. I understand you don't like receiving these emails and that they aren't going to get you to buy something. That doesn't mean you can redefine the word spam to include any email you don't like. ... VG. I don't agree. It is spam if it is unsolicited and commercial in nature. I have already acknowledged several times, in this thread and elsewhwere, that spam does not mean illegal. Some spam has been legalized. But just because the law has legalized it doesn't make it solicited and/or non-commercial.

If I didn't ask for it specifically, it is unsolicited. If I agreed in some term in their TOS that they will send me spam that doesn't make it solicited and that doesn't make it noncommercial. It makes it legal, but it's still unsolicited and its still commercial if they are trying to sell me something in the message.

I really don't understand why everyone insists that because it is legal, it's not spam. Spam is unsolicited commercial e-mail. Always has been since the word was accepted into daily use. The legality of it doesn't change that.

Spider
04-13-2010, 07:33 PM
Frederick, as one who has a newsletter sign up on his website, as well as, one who sells books..I am really surprised that you are so intolerant of others on the web trying to make a buck or cover their expenses.... Harold. I am not intolerant of people making money on the internet. I am a business coach, for goodness sake. The way you present the case, you are saying it's okay to annoy 90,000 people because 10,000 might open the e-mail. And what of conversions? 10%? So, it's okay to send e-mails that 99,000 don't want in order to reach 1,000 people who do?

I don't buy that, Harold. I don't think it is the right way to go about business. I don't think it is a productive way to go about business. I don't believe that is how to become successful in business.

Look around at successful businesses. Do they spam people in this (legal or illegal) fashion? Does Oprah Winfrey? Does Microsoft? Does Adobe? Does Cisco? Does Walmart? Does GE?

I don't know - do they? I haven't received any unsolicited commercial e-mail from any of them. but maybe they haven't got round to me, yet! I've written a book - at least I would have expected Oprah to be spamming me to come on her show!!!!

Harold Mansfield
04-13-2010, 08:08 PM
Harold. I am not intolerant of people making money on the internet. I am a business coach, for goodness sake. The way you present the case, you are saying it's okay to annoy 90,000 people because 10,000 might open the e-mail. And what of conversions? 10%? So, it's okay to send e-mails that 99,000 don't want in order to reach 1,000 people who do?

I don't buy that, Harold. I don't think it is the right way to go about business. I don't think it is a productive way to go about business. I don't believe that is how to become successful in business.

Look around at successful businesses. Do they spam people in this (legal or illegal) fashion? Does Oprah Winfrey? Does Microsoft? Does Adobe? Does Cisco? Does Walmart? Does GE?

I don't know - do they? I haven't received any unsolicited commercial e-mail from any of them. but maybe they haven't got round to me, yet! I've written a book - at least I would have expected Oprah to be spamming me to come on her show!!!!

That's just how email works. The ratio is low, but it is an industry all it's own.
some of the biggest e mailers/spammers are reputable companies...insurance, credit cards, mortgages. But you'd never know it because they use pro's that are hosted off shore, that have super servers that can do 1 million emails an hour (Probably faster than that by now). And they email you in the name of subsidiary companies.

For instance ( this is just an example) You may get a credit card offer from Lincoln Mutual..some obscure bank in Nebraska, but upon further research, Lincoln Mutual is actually Citibank.

I'm not saying it's right, but it's a viable industry.

Now lists are broken down into opening percentage, conversion ratios, etc...so there is a database on your email address. Maybe not personally, but it is probably in a few groups of mailers of people who don't open...meaning your email is almost worthless to a marketer, but not completely.

If you never buy and never open, you are probably on the $.10 list.
But people who deal in compiling, trading and buying lists, $.10 an address can be a lot of money and even at a low conversion ration it's still worth it because the pros know what to send to who based on your patterns. So even no action, still gives enough information.

They may not send a non-opener anything that is for sale, but they may send you a questionnaire from the Republican Party who is paying per open and response...not necessarily buying something and if they paid $.10 per email and got a batch that is crossed referenced as 80% Republican interest...and the Party is paying $1 for a filled out response..it's worth buying 1million non openers for 10 cents a piece.

Openers get mailed more, and buyers get mailed the most.

The thing is, if you have 100k people that have said "Yes, put me on your list so that I can have this free download", you don't know that one of them is Frederick Pierce, who won't buy anything, until you send it. That's when the math and statistics really start.

Email marketing is a well calibrated crap shoot. It's not just some guy with a website trying to sell a Wordpress Plug in. They have it down to a science.

The thing is, as long as your address seems to be viable, meaning that emails keep getting through, you will never completely get off of all lists, because you will never completely stop signing up for stuff online, or registering your car, or paying your mortgage...or signing up to win that free cruise from the booth at the mall.
Do you really think giveaways are actually giveaways ? No. They are list builders. Lists that can be bought and sold over and over again for months, or years.
And everyone is in on it. TV ads, Text Messages from your cell phone company...you know how they text you with a free trial of some new service? . It's a tracking mechanism...to see if you bite...remember, they have your email address to.

Everybody with a large database sells addresses. Everyone.

The DMV, Yahoo, Dept. of Taxation. County Clerk.

Everyone.

It sucks, but we got our obligatory Federal Protection...The Big Anti-Spam Law Oohhh, big deal. That shut everyone up and created an industry of off shore mailers to pick up the slack and now we have come to accept spam as a way of life.
Because when you get down to it, it's annoying. It's not damaging, or malicious. It's the electronic equivalent of a flier on your doorstep advertising lawn care, or a coupon in the mail box.
I don't see them passing anymore federal laws for something that is merely annoying, especially when every marketer out there can drop a billion instances on a judge's desk where people have asked to be emailed and just forgot about it or didn't know it meant 5 years later.

Just do what I do. I have multiple email addresses.I got one that I use for all my sign ups and registrations and about 10 that I never use for anything of the sort.
As soon as I get something that I don't want, I unsubscribe. My catch all email gets a lot of email everyday,(mainly because I have a lot of emails forwarded to it) but I can honestly say I know where 95% of it comes from and why/

vangogh
04-13-2010, 09:27 PM
It is spam if it is unsolicited and commercial in nature

What you're missing though is that it's not unsolicited once you've given the email in exchange for whatever the site is giving you. There's an implied (sometimes written) permission being given by you in the exchange. If you don't want the email then don't join the site or download the ebook or whatever it is the site is asking for.

Once you've given that permission you can't call the email unsolicited. True you don't want it, but you agreed to get it. I'd prefer to walk into a grocery store each week and walk out with a cart full of food without having to hand over any money for it, but it doesn't work that way. You don't have to like it, but when you give your email address out in exchange for something you've given permission to receive one or more emails.

That's why it's not spam. It has nothing to do with legality. It's that by signing up the email later is no longer unsolicited. The practice may not work. You don't have to like it. The emails might be an intrusion on your day. That still doesn't make it spam.


And what of conversions? 10%? So, it's okay to send e-mails that 99,000 don't want in order to reach 1,000 people who do?

Unless you convert 100% there are people who don't want what you have. Are you suggesting that anyone who converts less than 100% is going about business the wrong way? I assume you aren't.

Think about it. Every bit of marketing and advertising we do isn't going to get everyone who sees it to buy. And most people who don't buy are going to feel more annoyance at having seen your marketing. I get tired of flipping through page after page of ads in the magazines I read. Others might not. And at time I am looking for something that one of those ads might be offering.

The emails are no different. Instead of sending them out to everyone you collect emails based on giving something away in exchange. The act of someone giving you their email defines them as part of the potential market for products and services similar to what you gave away.

How is this different than placing door knob hangers in a neighborhood you've identified as your potential market or sending flyers or brochures in the mail to your target demographic? I didn't ask for those and I find them annoying to have to throw away every day. How is it different than the commercial that interrupts the program I'm watching? If anything the difference is the email list is more targeted and potentially annoys less people.

mcfarldr1
04-13-2010, 09:52 PM
The way I meant to use the word "spam" was in the sense that members would simply be on the website (assuming there was a forum section) to solicit their services or products excessively. So I guess, this would fall in the unwanted or unnecessary category of spamming.

Harold Mansfield
04-13-2010, 11:10 PM
I do all of my business online..bills, car registration, everything. The only thing in my mail box is sale papers, coupons, Pizza specials, free offers, mortgage stuff, and neighborhood newspapers.

I didn't ask for any of it
I didn't sign up for any of those things or on any list for these offers.
It's all unsolicited junk.(Except for the Pizza specials)

THAT should be more of a crime than a few emails.

billbenson
04-13-2010, 11:15 PM
This still should be a non issue with proper email management. You give away your email in return for something you want knowing full well it may result in email you don't want. Use a particular email address for those things and send all email to that address to a particular folder. It never clutters up your inbox.

Spider
04-13-2010, 11:26 PM
That's just how email works. The ratio is low, but it is an industry all it's own.
some of the biggest e mailers/spammers are reputable companies...insurance, credit cards, mortgages. But you'd never know it because they use pro's that are hosted off shore, that have super servers that can do 1 million emails an hour (Probably faster than that by now). And they email you in the name of subsidiary companies.
For instance ( this is just an example) You may get a credit card offer from Lincoln Mutual..some obscure bank in Nebraska, but upon further research, Lincoln Mutual is actually Citibank....Doesn't that tell you something? If this was a legitimate way of doing business, the "reputable companies" wouldn't hide their name, would they? They hide their name and go through offshore companies because they know that if the public knew it was them, they would lose business over it. Doesn't that tell you something?

It tells me these so-called "reputable companies" are risking their reputation. Does that sound like a sensible way to do business? Does it sound like a path to becoming a successful company? And just how successful is Citi right now?!

Spider
04-13-2010, 11:44 PM
What you're missing though is that it's not unsolicited once you've given the email in exchange for whatever the site is giving you. There's an implied (sometimes written) permission being given by you in the exchange. If you don't want the email then don't join the site or download the ebook or whatever it is the site is asking for.
Once you've given that permission you can't call the email unsolicited...Yes, I can. Giving permission does not equate with solicited. "Please give me my pen back," is not the same as "You can give me my pen back if you want to."

But if the word 'spam' is such a sensitive word for you, I will try to remember to call it UCE. And I again confirm, that some UCE may be legal and some may be illegal.

Spider
04-13-2010, 11:58 PM
...How is this different than placing door knob hangers in a neighborhood you've identified as your potential market or sending flyers or brochures in the mail to your target demographic? I didn't ask for those and I find them annoying to have to throw away every day...So do I. But I am consistent, at least. I don't find one acceptable and the other annoying.

If door knob hangers and fliers and direct mail are no different than UCE, how come you approve one and not the other?

Same question to Harold.

Harold Mansfield
04-14-2010, 12:14 AM
Doesn't that tell you something? If this was a legitimate way of doing business, the "reputable companies" wouldn't hide their name, would they? They hide their name and go through offshore companies because they know that if the public knew it was them, they would lose business over it. Doesn't that tell you something?

It tells me these so-called "reputable companies" are risking their reputation. Does that sound like a sensible way to do business? Does it sound like a path to becoming a successful company? And just how successful is Citi right now?!
Frederick, I understand that YOU don't want emails from anyone, even if you gave them permission, but many people don't mind and understand what giving consent means...and besides that, email works. That's why people keep doing it...because people keep responding to it

As far as "reputable companies" and email marketing. Small potatoes compared to the amount of companies hiding money in Switzerland so they don't have to pay taxes.
That's actually criminal and they are actually committing fraud.

I am sure Citibank does a lot more shadier crap than send a few million emails through a 3rd party.

Email is just not enough for me to get worked up over because I know how to stop unwanted emails...so I'm not as bothered as you are.

I mean it's just an email. It's not even physical. You don't have to get them. You don't even have to use email if you don't want to.

You play the game, you sign up for stuff when it's convenient and when you want something and now you want to act like a victim?

C'mon man, I know you like playing crotchety old man..errr I mean Devils Advocate, but you don't have to just sit there and act like there's nothing you can do and these people keep bothering you for no reason.

It's really an easy fix. Use more than one email address and know what you are doing when you give your email out.

No one has to be a "victim" in this day and age. I have 10 email addresses that never get any spam and 2 of them are posted plainly on websites with no masking.

I mean really. I have been mail bombed before, where 1000's of emails keep filling your inbox and that's not fun..but a few solicitations every now and then?


Email is just not that big of a deal. You click and it's gone. Can you name any other inconveniences and irritations that you can get rid of by clicking a button?

Interestingly enough, My MSN, Yahoo, and AOL accounts receive constant spam (Why? because they sell it) but none of my private email addresses get more than a few pieces a month combined.

Harold Mansfield
04-14-2010, 12:21 AM
So do I. But I am consistent, at least. I don't find one acceptable and the other annoying.

If door knob hangers and fliers and direct mail are no different than UCE, how come you approve one and not the other?

Same question to Harold.

I didn't say I approve, it's just not enough to start a revolution.
For years we accepted the biggest piece of spam and still the all time king of unsolicited advertising plopped right in your doorway...the big fricken paid listings only Yelllow Pages.
We in fact were so used to it that we actually started to treat it like a reference book.

Did it list ALL of the businesses in town? NO, just the ones that paid to be listed.

Twice a year, someone dropped a 50lb stack of advertising on your front porch and what did you do?..You gladly lugged it into the house and placed it somewhere safe.
And now you can't be bothered enough to click the delete button.
What has happened to your generation Spider?

Email ? Just not enough to get worked up about more than a few minutes.
It's not even real...it's virtual.
It only exists on your computer..it doesn't actually exist in the real world. You don''t have to throw it away, or lug it into the house. You don't even have to look at it. You have to read email spam to get pissed at it. Why do that? just delete and be more careful where you drop your address and use more than one.

billbenson
04-14-2010, 04:21 AM
Like the phone book analogy Eborg :)

Spider, three posts in a row? You must be getting riled up Texan style, not just devils advocate...

Spider, if you are getting that many emails that you agreed to get or just get such as Amazon, I have to think you asked for something that you no longer want at least on one or two of them. Probably that email from Helga in Russia who wants to meet with you :) We've all figured out that you find this annoying. The thing is, on this one, playing devils advocate won't come up with a solution. If you want to feel better pay a spam company to send millions of spam emails to the company thats spamming you. We'll all pitch in for your bail.

The thing is what is spam to you, others may want. Obama says he's going to address this problem if reelected. At 64 posts, we can't agree on what spam is. The thing is, this one is easy to fix. Set up your email properly and it will go away.

Harold Mansfield
04-14-2010, 09:23 AM
Like the phone book analogy Eborg :)


Man, I remember when I was growing up, people used to look forward to a new Yellow Pages..."Did you get the new Yellow Pages yet?", and you actually felt left out if a neighbor got theirs, but you didn't get yours yet.

"Where is my big book of advertisements ?"

People actually thanked the guys that delivered them !
You protected it like it was a set of Encyclopedias (wow ,there's an industry that got screwed).

I think back at that now and realize that the Phone Company was absolutely brilliant ! I mean at the time, there was no other point of reference when you needed services or products and they billed the crap out of people to list them. It was not cheap. But to actually market it as if it was some kind of reference book or complete business listing...if you were in business you had to pay them. There was no other way.

People scoffed at the slightest bit of sale papers and junk mail, but the Yellow Pages ? It was royalty.

Spider
04-14-2010, 10:15 AM
Regarding the YellowPages - the AT&T or equivalent YellowPages, that is.

You are in business, you have a business telephone line - you get an entry in the YellowPages, no additional cost. They call it a free listing but of course we know the cost is part of your higher business telephone bill. That means the YellowPages are more akin to your favorite search engine, only you have the entire database in your home. There's no charge for your business to be included and no charge to use it. Both the Yellowpages and Search Engines are generally considered useful entities by most people.

It is not like having a wad of direct mail in your postbox or a wad of spam in your inbox.

YellowPages is to Search Engines as direct mail is to spam.
YellowPages are like direct mail as much as search engines are like spam - ie, not much.


What gets to me most about this subject is the lack of connection the senders of UCE have as to principle. They do not see the same principle applying to UCE as they themselves apply to direct mail. They do not see that anoying hundreds of thousands of people who may become prospective customers is bad for business. They do not equate their UCE with the Jahovah's Witness who stands out on the sidewalk handing out copies of Watchtower every day so that people of the town cross the street to avoid him.

There is a principle at play here, and although I am not one to stand solely on principle for principle's sake, principles are usually founded on something meaningful. The principle is the more you piss off your prospects - whether you have the right to do so or not - the less business you will get in the long run.

In truth, I don't get as much spam as many, because of the precautions I take. But the majority of e-mail account-holders are not as tech-savvy as members of this forum. However, those less tech-savvy people are your potential customers - not today, maybe, but some day.

My posts in this forum are always (at least, I like to think "always") pertaining to what I consider good business sense. As a business coach and mentor, I can do no less. Accept it or reject it - your choice!

Harold Mansfield
04-14-2010, 10:33 AM
Regarding the YellowPages - the AT&T or equivalent YellowPages, that is.

You are in business, you have a business telephone line - you get an entry in the YellowPages, no additional cost. They call it a free listing but of course we know the cost is part of your higher business telephone bill.

Really, the Yellow Pages is a free listing ? That's not the pricing that I heard years ago when I checked into it.

Anyway, Spider, it's important to remember that you can't lump every company that sends email to customers, people who have expressed interest, and people who have given consent all as spammers.

Just like anything else, there are people and companies that know how to use it effectively and successfully and those that exploit it and have no clue what they are doing.

It's not spam just because you are not interested.
It's spam if you didn't ask for it or it's an abnormally high number of sends.

Amazon sending me specials is not spam anymore than The Pottery Barn sending me catalogs is spam.(yeah, that's right..Pottery Barn)
I shop on Amazon and I can unsubscribe anytime I wish. As you can with everything. I haven't shopped at Pottery Barn in a while but that doesn't mean the catalog is junk mail.

Yaro Stark sending me emails everyday about some new marketing trick is spam (abnormally high) , even though I may have signed up for it. As it pertains to the law, it's not spam..but who in their right mind that has a clue sends people 5 emails a week?

Now, I have a "Canadian" Pharmaceutical company sending me emails everyday from China. That's spam, and I can't stop them because the law doesn't pertain to them.
Now I know I can set my spam filter to automatically delete any email from them, I just haven't gotten around to it yet..but I'm not a victim...after all, they are the idiots.

Spider
04-14-2010, 11:10 AM
Really, the Yellow Pages is a free listing ? That's not the pricing that I heard years ago when I checked into it...We've been in the YellowPages for 20 years. One "free" listing for every business line you have. Other ads are charged for, of course, and that's what they want you to buy. We have two paid ads and, thus, three spots in the book. That's the AT&T YP, was the Southwestern Bell YP. There are various other YP directories around the area and we do not buy ads in them, although we do have an unpaid-for line listing in those I have seen. We also have plain free listings in the online Superpages (I think that's AT&T, as well) and several other online business directories - none paid for.



Anyway, Spider, it's important to remember that you can't lump every company that sends email to customers, people who have expressed interest, and people who have given consent all as spammers..I am not lumping companies together nor picking companies apart - I am referring only to the practice.

vangogh
04-14-2010, 11:27 AM
Giving permission does not equate with solicited.

In this case it does. You can't agree to let someone send you an email in exchange for something and then complain later when they send you the email. The reason I'm harping on this is because you seem to be lumping a lot of people who do different things into one group and unfairly classifying them as spam. The person who asks for your email in exchange for a free ebook is very different from the person who harvest your email online somewhere and starts sending you offers for pharmaceuticals. You seem to be implying they're doing the same thing and that's not fair to the first group.


If door knob hangers and fliers and direct mail are no different than UCE, how come you approve one and not the other?

I'm not sure where you got the idea I don't approve of door knob hangers or direct mail. I don't have a problem with either. I don't think door knob hangers are effective because I don't think they're targeted (though in some cases they could be). Fliers and direct mail can be more targeted if done right. I don't consider any of them spam. I may like getting what I consider junk mail, but I'm generally not getting angry with the companies who send it to me. I would say that the email list when done right likely ends up being more targeted still.


They do not see the same principle applying to UCE as they themselves apply to direct mail. They do not see that anoying hundreds of thousands of people who may become prospective customers is bad for business.

Frederick this is why I say you're lumping different groups of people under one roof. Many of the big internet marketers who are building lists and sending email offers adopted everything from direct mail. Yes, there are absolutely some people who annoy everyone and aren't sending out email to a targeted group. Some is not all though. Far from it. Be upset with those people, but don't hold the entire practice at fault.

The type of people I'm trying to defend are the ones who do realize what they're doing and they're trying to reach a targeted market. You have to keep in mind there's no way they can know in advance exactly who is or isn't interested. Asking for an email in exchange for something like a Whitepaper does eliminate many of those who have no interest. Anyone who does download the Whitepaper has given a strong indication that they would be open to offers for similar information, services, or products.

Harold Mansfield
04-14-2010, 11:40 AM
Frederick, as one who has a newsletter sign up on his website, as well as, one who sells books..I am really surprised that you are so intolerant of others on the web trying to make a buck or cover their expenses.

You mean to tell me that if 100k people sign up for your newsletter, you aren't going to suggest a book or something every now and then ?

At an average rate of 2%- 5% for untargeted opens, and 10% and up for targeted opens...you aren't going to ever sell anything to your newsletter people?

Ever?

Do you propose that you have all of the products and all of the information on the subject that they will ever need and they will never be interested in buying anything else on the subject because you will be giving them everything they need and that there is... for free.

And for those that are interested in buying products on the subject, you would rather them go to a competitor, than to send out any promotional or sales emails.

Is that what you are saying?
C'mon.

Tony Roberts offers you $1.50 per to send to your list and you are standing your ground and turning down $150k ?
Really ?

You never answered this Spider. You are building a list on your very own website. What makes you any different from the people that you are lambasting ?

Spider
04-14-2010, 12:11 PM
...The type of people I'm trying to defend are the ones who do realize what they're doing and they're trying to reach a targeted market. You have to keep in mind there's no way they can know in advance exactly who is or isn't interested. Asking for an email in exchange for something like a Whitepaper does eliminate many of those who have no interest. Anyone who does download the Whitepaper has given a strong indication that they would be open to offers for similar information, services, or products.I think that is an erroneous assumption. Someone downloading a whitepaper has indicated that they are interested in reading that whitepaper. There is no indication given that they would be open to offers for similar information, services, or products.

I think this whole idea of "targetted UCE is okay, untargetted UCE is not" is a poor excuse for doing wrong, for being inconsiderate of people's time and sensibilities.

What's wrong with asking people straight out, point blank: "Do you want to receive more information on this subject, including offers, discounts and other sales literature. If so please join our mailing list by entering your e-mail address here >>>"

Instead, we have "Enter your e-mail address to read the free article." Or, "Opt-in below and you will get access to the download page for my free e-zine." Or other such "come-on."

Why not - "Click 'Next Page' to read the article. Then, if you like our approach, if you want to receive a weekly e-mail with article, offers, sales promotions, etc., enter your e-mail address at the end of the article."

If you believe, as I do, that you will get an even more targetted list doing that, then why not advocate that as a way of building a list properly. If you feel that not enough people will enter their e-mail addresses, then you are approving trickery doing it the other way.

Harold Mansfield
04-14-2010, 12:19 PM
What's wrong with asking people straight out, point blank: "Do you want to receive more information on this subject, including offers, discounts and other sales literature. If so please join our mailing list by entering your e-mail address here >>>"

'Many companies do, do that, but, you also have to accept the fact that the web has made everyone cheap and given people a sense of entitlement that information and everything on the web should be free with no regard for how it got there, or who is paying for it to be available.

I already covered why this is a ridiculous assumption earlier, but the bottom line is, if you want what someone else is offering, there is going to be some kind of trade, it's either going to be money, or give me a chance to make you a customer.

One or the other.

If you want all free stuff with no obligations to ever be "bothered" by anyone, then go Government websites. Everything else is privately owned. PRIVATELY. That means there is no obligation to just give things away to the general public.

These websites that tick you off, they are owned by real people and I think that they are allowed to run their sites and their business anyway they wish, just as you are free to run yours as you wish. If i don;t like the way a company does business, I certainly am not going to take their stuff, download their ebook, or use their utility and then bitch about it later when I get an email for anti-virus software...that I don't even have to read and can delete with my finger and never see it again.

I personally think its a good trade off, "You mean I can get this and all I have to do is give you some BS Yahoo address that I never check anyway and don't use for anything? Sounds good to me, here ya go!"



Instead, we have "Enter your e-mail address to read the free article." Or, "Opt-in below and you will get access to the download page for my free e-zine." Or other such "come-on."

Why not - "Click 'Next Page' to read the article. Then, if you like our approach, if you want to receive a weekly e-mail with article, offers, sales promotions, etc., enter your e-mail address at the end of the article."

If you believe, as I do, that you will get an even more targetted list doing that, then why not advocate that as a way of building a list properly. If you feel that not enough people will enter their e-mail addresses, then you are approving trickery doing it the other way.

vangogh
04-14-2010, 12:25 PM
Someone downloading a whitepaper has indicated that they are interested in reading that whitepaper. There is no indication given that they would be open to offers for similar information, services, or products.

We're going to have to agree to disagree on this. I think it is an indication the person would be open to more info, services, products, about the same topic as the whitepaper. Maybe it's not true of you, but for most people it is. If you download a whitepaper about how to improve conversions on your site then you've indicated an interest in improving conversions on your site. You might then be interested in buying an ebook or signing up for a course or purchasing a tool that would help you improve conversions on your site.


What's wrong with asking people straight out, point blank: "Do you want to receive more information on this subject, including offers, discounts and other sales literature. If so please join our mailing list by entering your e-mail address here

There's nothing wrong with that. However I would guess that a significant number of people who wouldn't sign up after seeing that kind of question would have bought something had they signed up without being asked directly about future offers. I'm not suggesting people shouldn't add a checkbox about receiving future offers or something like that. I just want you to be aware that not everyone views those emails the same way you do.

You're general thought (my apologies if I'm getting this wrong) is that the current way sends you and people like yourself emails that are never going to work to get you to buy something and instead only server to annoy you. Consider that from the other side. If I know you're never going to buy anything no matter what offer I send, why would I be so concerned with annoying you. The end result is that you aren't going to buy anything, which we already know you weren't going to do in any case.

I'm not suggesting the right way to run a business is to go around annoying people, but doesn't any marketing that targets one group end up excluding another group. If I send out an email that's pro one political party it's fair to assume it's going to annoy the other party. That doesn't mean the email should stop being sent.

Spider
04-14-2010, 12:30 PM
You never answered this Spider. You are building a list on your very own website. What makes you any different from the people that you are lambasting ?My newsletter sign up is accompanied on the first page by ---

This newsletter is
Free
Brief and intermittent.
Concise and to the point - a bit of news, a new idea, tips for self improvement.
Thoughts on career, business and money.
Based on 45+ years of practical worldwide business experience.

A bit of news, a new idea, tips for self improvement, thoughts on career, business and money. I do not promise to send advertisements, discounts, coupons, fliers, brochures, promotions or anything - and I don't.

And - especially, you will notice - brief and intermittent. I haven't sent a newsletter in months.

Regarding your questions, I don't have 100,000 addresses on my newsletter list so none of the questions apply. Furthermore, I don't believe I am likely to get 100,000 addresses because I will not use the tricks and manipulations I am decrying.

Harold Mansfield
04-14-2010, 12:38 PM
My newsletter sign up is accompanied on the first page by ---

This newsletter is
Free
Brief and intermittent.
Concise and to the point - a bit of news, a new idea, tips for self improvement.
Thoughts on career, business and money.
Based on 45+ years of practical worldwide business experience.

A bit of news, a new idea, tips for self improvement, thoughts on career, business and money. I do not promise to send advertisements, discounts, coupons, fliers, brochures, promotions or anything - and I don't.

And - especially, you will notice - brief and intermittent. I haven't sent a newsletter in months.

Regarding your questions, I don't have 100,000 addresses on my newsletter list so none of the questions apply. Furthermore, I don't believe I am likely to get 100,000 addresses because I will not use the tricks and manipulations I am decrying.

So, then...what is the purpose of building an email list? What was your original intention?
C'mon, you can say it...So that you can send people stuff and entice them to become clients, ie: CUSTOMERS. In plain speak, To spend money with you.

You are giving out free information, in exchange for their email address so that you can target them later.

Where is the difference here? Am I missing something?
How is that not Identical to what you are complaining about?

So you haven't sent an email out in months..even worse..so when you do send one out, do you think people are going to say"WTF is this? I don't remember signing up for this.That was 3 months ago, why is he still sending me stuff?"

Just like you are doing now.

So lets just say you had 100k email address and the offer came. What would you do? and Spider, I expect you to be honest.
Are you going to stand on your personal principles about how people should list build and turn down $150k?

Spider
04-14-2010, 12:44 PM
...If I know you're never going to buy anything no matter what offer I send, why would I be so concerned with annoying you...Who was it - Steven Covey, I think - said something to the effect: It's important in business to do things right, but it's more important to do right things.

Spider
04-14-2010, 12:59 PM
So, then...what is the purpose of building an email list? What was your original intention?To maintain contact with anyone who wished to remain in contact with me. To have a brief exchange on topics that interest me. Me! Not "what can I sell them this week?" "How can I induce them to hire me, today?" And the next day. And the next day. Simply, "This is what I think about this." A sort of short, private blog, you mght say. Over the course of time, I had hoped, they would be in a position to say, 'I need help in my business,' 'I would like to grow my business into a multi-million dollar business.' 'Perhaps that Frederick Pearce chappie has some insight into this.' 'I think I'll drop him a line.'

I can't say it has achieved that, but that was the intention.



...So lets just say you had 100k email address and the offer came. What would you do? and Spider, I expect you to be honest.
Are you going to stand on your personal principles about how people should list build and turn down $150k?I would look at that offer and begin to devise ways that I could approach the people I wanted to approach in a fashion that did not break the principles I have established.

Spider
04-14-2010, 01:08 PM
VG, this looks like a page requiring an e-mail sign up for a free newsletter that promises free content.

Unbelievable free membership offer (http://www.newbiestarterpack.com/)

Harold Mansfield
04-14-2010, 01:37 PM
To maintain contact with anyone who wished to remain in contact with me. To have a brief exchange on topics that interest me. Me! Not "what can I sell them this week?" "How can I induce them to hire me, today?" And the next day. And the next day. Simply, "This is what I think about this." A sort of short, private blog, you mght say. Over the course of time, I had hoped, they would be in a position to say, 'I need help in my business,' 'I would like to grow my business into a multi-million dollar business.' 'Perhaps that Frederick Pearce chappie has some insight into this.' 'I think I'll drop him a line.'


Hmmn, sounds the same to me. It doesn't matter how you approach them, the goal is the same.

The only thing you are arguing is the method in which some companies do it, not that you don't understand the goal, because you have the exact same goal.

By that logic, I could argue about how I disagree with how some people build their websites...doesn't mean all websites are bad, poorly designed or that every company that uses a website is trying to sell me something .

Reputable companies don't email you over and over. Those are amateurs, and unprofessional companies.

Every company that sends email does not fall into this category just because you were sent an email that you are not interested in just as you don't fall into this category, but, you do use email to stay in contact and keep your services fresh in people's mind just the same, in hopes of turning a few into clients.

It's the same thing.

If you are going to lump every email that you aren't interested in as spam, then put your self there, because I am sure that if you send out an email after months of no contact, there will be a few people on your list that are no longer interested in what you have to say, forgotten that they signed up, or have moved on, and will consider your communication an unrequested intrusion and call it spam.

But in your mind, they signed up, so they must want to hear from you. Right? Even if it's 6 months later.


I am going to rest my case now.

Spider
04-14-2010, 02:03 PM
Hmmn, sounds the same to me. It doesn't matter how you approach them, the goal is the same.
The only thing you are arguing is the method in which some companies do it, not that you don't understand the goal, because you have the exact same goal...Exactly! I have only ever been discussing method.


...By that logic, I could argue about how I disagree with how some people build their websites...Oh, you mean like using tables instead of css?! :D


...Reputable companies don't email you over and over. Those are amateurs, and unprofessional companies...Doesn't make any difference, really. 400 unwelcome e-mails are 400 unwelcome e-mails whether they come from the same 400 companies every day or a different 400 companies every day.


...Every company that sends email does not fall into this category just because you were sent an email that you are not interested in just as you don't fall into this category, but, you do use email to stay in contact and keep your services fresh in people's mind just the same, in hopes of turning a few into clients.
It's the same thing...It's not the same thing as far is this thread is concerned - which was/is about membership sites. A site that insists on you giving your e-mail address to read an article then sends you advertisments is not doing the same as a site that takes your e-mail address to send you precisely and only what the person signing up signed up for.


...If you are going to lump every email that you aren't interested in as spam, then put your self there, because I am sure that if you send out an email after months of no contact, there will be a few people on your list that are no longer interested in what you have to say, forgotten that they signed up, or have moved on, and will consider your communication an unrequested intrusion and call it spam...That is likely true. As long as I keep my end of the bargain, that's all I can do - as long as I only send what I said I would send and nothing else.


...But in your mind, they signed up, so they must want to hear from you. Right?That's right, as long as I don't send them anything additional. They didn't sign my subscribe form to receive advertisements so I must not send them advertisements.


...I am going to rest my case now.And I rest mine.

Harold Mansfield
04-14-2010, 02:22 PM
So stop giving people your email address . (C'mon, you knew I couldn't really shut up)

billbenson
04-14-2010, 03:21 PM
In truth, I don't get as much spam as many, because of the precautions I take. But the majority of e-mail account-holders are not as tech-savvy as members of this forum. However, those less tech-savvy people are your potential customers - not today, maybe, but some day.

My posts in this forum are always (at least, I like to think "always") pertaining to what I consider good business sense. As a business coach and mentor, I can do no less. Accept it or reject it - your choice!

Your devils advocate approach or whatever you want to call it is good. Keep on doing it. It helps create educational threads.

As far as your first statement above, this is really a different issue. Yes my parents get a ton of unwanted spam, much of which they consider obscene and they don't know how to deal with it.

Most email accounts are through your isp or a free service like gmail or hotmail. From what I've seen, the isp's don't do a very good job of filtering spam. gmail and hotmail to a pretty good job.

The reason I say this is a different issue is the computer is a very technical consumer product. You should know how to set up emails, use spam filters, keep virus's out, safely install new software... People like my parents don't. However, much of the next generation does. They want the "coolest" cell phone and use it for web browsing texting, gps, etc. They are just playing, but they are becoming quite tech savvy just for fun. My sister has two daughters who just finished college with a liberal arts degree. They would have no problems setting up and managing a pc. They just spent 4 years having to use a pc hours a day for their studies.

So I think the landscape of the typical computer user will change dramatically over time. We are entering a time where consumers need to be tech savvy and that's not going to change.

Patrysha
04-14-2010, 03:41 PM
If you aren't making an offer and asking them to do something, they are unlikely to take action...and even more unlikely to take the action that you want them to. You mix offers in with lots and lots of quality content...but you can't just skip the offers because then you are just wasting everybody's time.

It's really not very effective to not send something to your list for months. You don't have to be rigid about it, but it should be part of your weekly or bi-weekly schedule. And when you think about it, you have promised them something in return for their address...you owe it to them to deliver the tips, insights and random thoughts that you have said that you would.

Heck it would take a fraction of the time that it does to write one of your weighty devil's advocate threads. Do you ever post thread starters to your list and encourage interaction....when people feel like the communication is truly a two way street...it's easier for them to think of you first when it does come to business coaching :-) Consistency and quality....

Harold Mansfield
04-14-2010, 03:52 PM
Heck it would take a fraction of the time that it does to write one of your weighty devil's advocate threads..

That made me chuckle:)

Spider
04-14-2010, 05:01 PM
...when you think about it, you have promised them something in return for their address...You raise an interesting point, Patrysha. All through this thread the accent has been on people giving their e-mail address in return for receiving something. Like the e-mail address has been a "payment" for receiving something.

I wonder if the normal website visitor looks upon their e-mail address as currency. I cannot say that I think of "paying" for the article using my e-mail address as payment. Don't people give their e-mail address in order for someone to send them something.

When I buy something on the web, I give my street address so the vendor can send me what I ordered. Since when did e-mail addresses become currency?

Patrysha
04-14-2010, 06:55 PM
Personal information has always been currency in the direct sales marketing world...

It is not so much that your email is currency as that it has value...

You enter a sweepstakes, a contest etc...you're trading away your personal information for a chance to win...some magazines make more money off the sale of the personal information of their subscribers than they do off the actual publication.

And no, the average website user does not see that their email is currency or has value...they just want the "what's in it for me"...most don't question the motives the collector might have as long as they get what they want/need from the exchange.

Spider
04-14-2010, 11:46 PM
...Most email accounts are through your isp or a free service like gmail or hotmail. From what I've seen, the isp's don't do a very good job of filtering spam. ..I don't know about other ISPs but I noticed recently Earthlink was included on a list of anti-spam and anti-virus companies, that included McAfee, Symantec and others. My ISP is Earthlink, and I can vouch for their superb anti-spam, anti-virus capabilities.



...We are entering a time where consumers need to be tech savvy and that's not going to change.I accept that but I do not think that excuses internet abuse like spam and viruses. We put locks on our cars but that doesn't mean people who steal cars shouldn't be prosecuted.

Harold Mansfield
04-15-2010, 01:04 AM
I knew this thread was starting to go in a circle 40 posts ago, but I can;t look away.
It's like watching the loud drunk girl at the bar in the short skirt, or a Zebra walking though a casino in a top hat..you just have to look.



I accept that but I do not think that excuses internet abuse like spam and viruses. We put locks on our cars but that doesn't mean people who steal cars shouldn't be prosecuted.

Real spammers do get prosecuted. There are plenty of pros that work for some very big companies (through 3rd party brokers) that are former U.S citizens now living in places like Costa Rica, and The Bahamas that cannot come back into the U.S. because they are wanted for breaking spam laws.

People who send sales emails to addresses from which they have gained permission are not spammers and I don't care how many ways you argue it, no one will ever prosecute, or even slap anyone the wrist just because they sent you an email about car insurance instead of about car seat covers.

If they did, every title company and DMV in America would be shut down.
Do you think it's a coincidence that when you buy a new car, or a home, you get emails and regular mail about home and car stuff?

You keep wanting to blame the senders because they may have sent you emails for things that you aren't interested in, or are not exactly within the niche of what you think you signed up for (although I am sure that you don't read every agreement) , but ultimately, it is your responsibility to read what you sign up for, and who you give your information to.
Not theirs.

It's not like they are stealing your email address and sending you stuff. You're just not happy about what they are sending you. And you want to blame someone for that? Blame yourself for signing up in the first place.

Edited:
These days it is rare that a company that does any business online only owns one site. So it is a real possibility that by signing up you may get emails about ALL of their products and services.

If you want your information protected, then you need to protect it. No one is going to do it for you and if you give it out freely, someone will try and capitalize on it...just as if you leave your wallet on a park bench.

You can't get pissed off about the way things should be or the way other people should run their business. It's up to you to live and adjust to the way things are to protect yourself accordingly. and if that means never signing up for anything free just to have an empty inbox, then that is what you have to do.

There is no one to complain to about this because what you are arguing is not illegal and is only considered spam to you because you don't want it.

I don't see what is so difficult about just using multiple email addresses? At least 2, one for crap and one for business.
Why would you rather continue to argue the problem, instead of just fixing it?

People trying to sell to you is as old as time itself. It has always been that way and It will never stop.
The whole world economy revolves around sales.

Let me ask you, did you consider the door to door vacuum cleaner, or encyclopedia salesman "spammers"? because they were.

What about the kid with the paper route that knocks on your door and ask you if you want to get the paper, or the Girl Scout that is selling cookies?
They are all technically spammers because you did not ask to be solicited and they actually physically come to your house and bother you!
If an electronic message gets you all up in the air, I can't imagine how you treat the poor little Girl Scouts.

The bottom line..it's just email. It's just an email address.
You can have as many of them as you want and get them anytime you want. They are disposable. They are cheap.They are virtual...it's not the real world. It's an electronic message.
Just delete it, Unsubscribe and move on.

vangogh
04-15-2010, 11:54 AM
Thanks for the link Frederick. Just to make sure we're all talking about the same thing I wouldn't characterize the site you linked to as a membership site. Generally when people talk about membership sites they're referring to a site that charges a recurring fee for access to content. The site you linked to is more of a landing page that aims to build an email list. They collect emails in exchange for a newsletter and other freebies.


It's important in business to do things right, but it's more important to do right things.

I wasn't implying your business shouldn't do the right thing. We all have to realize we aren't going to please every person every time. No matter what we do some people will not like what we're offering or how we do business. It makes more sense to me to focus on the people who do like what you're offering and do like how you do business. I don't think that sending an email to someone who signed up for your list and now doesn't want to receive your email is doing something wrong. As long as you provided an unsubscribe link in the email then it's up to the person to click the link if they don't want future emails.


To maintain contact with anyone who wished to remain in contact with me.

In that case you don't need to collect their email. You just need to give them yours. If they wish to remain in contact they'll contact you. If you send them all an email then you're going to reach some people who don't want to hear from you and will be annoyed at having received your email. The content inside the email makes no difference. It doesn't matter if you're selling or just talking about the weather.


Doesn't make any difference, really. 400 unwelcome e-mails are 400 unwelcome e-mails whether they come from the same 400 companies every day or a different 400 companies every day.

it does make a difference. If you signed up and joined the mailing list of 400 different companies then it's your own fault for receiving that many emails. I'm currently subscribed to more than 500 blogs. Some days my feed reader is too full for me to be able to find the few posts I really want to read. That's not the fault of the blogs I'm subscribed to. If I don't want new posts from 500+ blogs then I shouldn't be subscribed to that many.

If you give you email address to hundreds of companies and each company sends you a single email don't blame the companies for all the unwanted emails. Blame yourself for signing up for that many.


A site that insists on you giving your e-mail address to read an article then sends you advertisments is not doing the same as a site that takes your e-mail address to send you precisely and only what the person signing up signed up for.

Just to hammer home the point, what you're describing is not a membership site.

Now as far as what the company sends emails for you're basically suggesting the company should give you the freebie (whitepaper, ebook, whatever) out of the goodness of their heart with nothing in return. Hardly much reason for a company to do that. The whole point is to collect your email address. If you're interested in an ebook on how to set up a wine cellar, it's likely you'll be interested in and possibly buy other things related to wine.


Since when did e-mail addresses become currency?

Probably at the same time the first email list was sold. Lots of things online are currency in some respects. Links for example. They play such a huge role in search rankings that some people will happily work hours to acquire a single link. An email address, especially when connected to some demographic information or an interest in a certain subject is valuable. You may not respond to email offers, but people in general do.


People who send sales emails to addresses from which they have gained permission are not spammers and I don't care how many ways you argue it, no one will ever prosecute, or even slap anyone the wrist anyone just because they sent you an email about car insurance instead of about car seat covers.

I agree with everything Harold said above. I know it can be annoying to receive email offers at times, but the email offers we've been talking about here as well as how they're collected isn't spam. it's legitimate business practice, no different than all the companies that send snail mail we may or may not want to receive.

Business Attorney
04-16-2010, 10:13 AM
I would just add that almost all reputable companies in the United States do strictly follow the requirements of the CANSPAM Act. If you are getting emails from Dell, Microsoft, Buy.com, Amazon, Pepsi, Subway or any other company like that, clicking on the unsubscribe link in the email will almost certainly remove your name from the list and will not result in them selling your confirmed address to someone else. The problem is with the off-shore companies, the fly-by-night spammers in the US and marketing companies who will put your name on dozens of lists and only unsubscribe you from the particular list that you unsubscribe from.

And to answer the question:
Since when did e-mail addresses become currency?
the answer is probably as soon as the first person got email. For decades, the direct marketing industry has assembled and traded/sold information on individuals. They know your income level, your profession, the value of your home, your charitable deductions, your political contributions, etc... Most of that junk mail that you find in your mailbox is not sent to you at random but based on a very detailed profile of you. Some of it is sent based on general information, like zip codes, but most is not. You probably don't get mailings from Pampers and the guy who has five kids and makes $45,000 a year probably doesn't get mailings from Lexus. There is no reason think that marketers will ignore the value of getting marketing and sales materials in front of a person electronically.

Spider
04-16-2010, 11:26 AM
David, you and others before you have mistaken the "e-mail as currency" comment. You are confusing currency with value.

Companies sending UCE or any other type of e-mail based on demographics or whatever, is all about companies finding value in e-mail addresses. "Finding value" and "currency" are not the same thing.

Certainly, the moment unsolicited commercial e-mail was invented, e-mail addresses had value, but they didn't become currency until someone tried to buy something with one or someone accepted an e-mail address as payment for something.