shocking stories during this economy

[huggytree]

I keep hearing and seeing shocking things during this slow time....the latest is a guy who's waterheater broke in Feb 2009. He has been living w/ no hot water for almost a year. He was asking for advice on finding one for the $200 he has saved up for it. He's freezing with the winter water temps during his showers.....11 months and all he can save is $200 for something the average person wouldnt wait more than 24 hours for....it shocks me. I didnt think people in Mexico went without hot water for 11 months let alone someone in the richest country in the world.

i have had calls looking for used waterheaters this past year, so i know people cant afford the $400 for a new water heater from Home Depot.

Another friend went out of business this week...he was a roofer who sold a quality product. He couldnt compete anymore because his competition used unskilled labor and he didnt want to do an unskilled job...some of his sales techniques were similar to mine, some werent....

anyone else heard a shocking story on how some in America are living a 3rd world life?

[Steve B]

Nothing like that. But, if things don't pick up ... I may have a few good ones to add myself. Winter is hard on a dog fence installer!

[billbenson]

South of the border they use small electric (tankless) water heaters. They look like an electrocution waiting to happen but I've never heard of someone getting a shock from one. They are just the size of a fat shower head. You control the heat by increasing or decreasing the volume of water. They are about $40. I'd use one of those before going without hot water.

[nealrm]

I didnt think people in Mexico went without hot water for 11 months There are areas in Mexico in major cities without running water in the houses.

[Steve B]

Good point - nealrm.

[dynocat]

Here our food banks, church groups and soup kitchens can barely keep the shelves stocked. I think there are many people short of food along with other necessities.

Then the many people we know without healthcare who never go to a doctor or dentist unless they're seriouly bleeding from an injury.

All this going on in the richest country in the world.

[Harold Mansfield]

Even in a good economy, there are plenty of stories of people living in substandard conditions.
To me, living somewhere without broadband internet access is living in the dark ages, but there are still towns in the south and as far north as IL that don't have proper sewage and no municipal services like a fire department or police...and everyone has to go the the town post office to get their mail...there is no delivery. Towns that have been left behind.

Recently, during this stretch, the most common story for me is so many people that I know, that purchased homes in the last 3-5 years that can't afford them anymore or just plain lost them. I have some friends that are still holding on but are paying upwards of $3k a month for their mortgage...which is ridiculous on an average salary. I am SO happy that I didn't buy out here when everyone else was....I knew something was wrong...it was just too easy.

Also out here there were a large number of "Loan Modification" businesses popping up all over the place....some run by the very same people that had mortgage companies during the boom. Although, since the state stepped in and required that everyone get licensed, bonded and certified..RIGHT NOW...only about 3 remain. I think they all had a month to comply. That was really building up to be a large scale scam...you could see it a mile away.

[huggytree]

i think we should lower the standard of living for everyone in this country so everyone can have free healthcare. that would make it a better place and make me feel good.

When i go to work in poor neighborhoods ive never seen a starving person..most are overweight...seems like the poor are less starving than the middle class....has anyone ever starved to death in America in the past 100 years?

didnt know that about Mexico...i can see some small town out in the middle of nowhere, but not in a major city...wonder why they cant get it together down there and move into the 1900's?

[Harold Mansfield]

When i go to work in poor neighborhoods ive never seen a starving person..most are overweight...seems like the poor are less starving than the middle class....has anyone ever starved to death in America in the past 100 years?


That's because cheap food is also fattening food, but you are right..there may be broke people in this country, but we always find a way to eat.

[huggytree]

when i have been strapped for money in my life i have eaten rice and hot dogs, mac and cheese, roman noodles, peanut and butter....i ate for almost nothing and didnt get fat.

i dont see cheap food being anymore fattening than food of any price range...rice is the cheapest food you can get...cant get fat off rice.

steak and lobster every day would make you enormous....poor people are more fat because of their lifestyle as much as the type and amount of food they eat.

[Patrysha]

when i have been strapped for money in my life i have eaten rice and hot dogs, mac and cheese, roman noodles, peanut and butter....i ate for almost nothing and didnt get fat.

i dont see cheap food being anymore fattening than food of any price range...rice is the cheapest food you can get...cant get fat off rice.

steak and lobster every day would make you enormous....poor people are more fat because of their lifestyle as much as the type and amount of food they eat.

Rice isn't as cheap as it used to be...

And all those foods you listed as eating during low spells...are filled with preservatives and additives that may not make you feel ill over the short term or as a small part of an overall diet, but over time will make you feel logey and less energetic.

Lifestyle has a lot to do with it, but so does body type. I know my body doesn't tend to turn fatty, but others in my family do...my mom, one of my uncles and my middle son.

My middle son eats the same diet as the rest of the house, in about the same quantities and is more active than the rest of us...being in a house full of skinny minnies is not doing his self-esteem much good...

[huggytree]

i was single back then too, so alot of microwave dinners and cheap pizza's too

it was rare to eat well.....i was alittle thinner back then too..

[Harold Mansfield]

when i have been strapped for money in my life i have eaten rice and hot dogs, mac and cheese, roman noodles, peanut and butter....i ate for almost nothing and didnt get fat.

i dont see cheap food being anymore fattening than food of any price range...rice is the cheapest food you can get...cant get fat off rice.

steak and lobster every day would make you enormous....poor people are more fat because of their lifestyle as much as the type and amount of food they eat.

True, it all depends on how much you eat and how you eat it. Sure the rice may not make you fat but loaded with butter and salt it will.

It's a lot deeper than just poor..it also goes into cultural differences, learned habits, lack of exercise and other issues regarding hopelessness and despair and food as a crutch to provide some kind of enjoyment or feeling of accomplishment or status.

I can say in the black culture, especially in the south, having food and sharing it with others was a part of the culture no matter how little you had.
The big meal was a family time of bonding and communication and as we all know (those of us that are from the south or have relatives in the south) they may not be able to offer you much when you go and visit, but they always offer you food and southern food is rich, fattening, fried (and sooo good !) and many recipes have roots dating back to slavery where field workers had to make due with what ever was given to them.

They didn't get the ham part of the pig, they got the pig's feet...so they BBQ'ed them.

They didn't cook anything low fat, if anything they were given what ever would put mass on them....those "traditions" have carried on until today.
Heck I still remember people cooking with lard. There was no "I can't believe it's not butter" or anything of the sort...so you made due with what you had.

People from cultures like that have to re-learn proper diet. It was never part of the culture and when you are poor or have basically given up hope of ever having a better life, or life just plain sucks...proper diet is the last thing on your mind until the doc say's you have High Blood Pressure or Diabetes.

Sure you and I can make due for a few weeks or even months on Top Ramen, and Hot Dogs when times are lean, but when life is lean..Frosted Flakes are cheaper than Whole Grain Cheerios, Pork Sausage is cheaper than Beef, and Chicken Legs are cheaper than Chicken Breast. If you are trying to feed more than yourself, are going to spend $6 for (4) Chicken Breast and eat one night, or spend that same $6 on a family pack of Hot Links and throw it together with something else and eat for a couple of days?

If you have $2, you can get 2 Dbl Dbl's at McDonalds but what kind of meal can you get at the supermarket for $2?

Believe me, cheap food is fattening food and when food is the only satisfaction that you can give yourself...it becomes a priority to at least be able to enjoy that.

[billbenson]

Kind of agree Eborg, but...........

Poor cultures that I'm aware of (mostly latin america) eat what is cheap and available and have also managed over years to make it taste good. Mexican food, for example can be very complex. Its frequently rice and beans because that is what has been available. I suspect animal fat has been available in these cultures and that is why frying is so popular. Also, fried food tastes good as you mentioned.

There is also another issue and that is spoilage. Middle class in much of latin america doesn't have refrigeration. They make a big batch of beans. They heat up yesterdays beans in the morning to keep them from spoiling. They have chickens for eggs.

It is interesting that the street food of poor cultures such as china and mexico taste good and are very popular here.

What that has to do with the price of a big mack in china, I don't know.

[Harold Mansfield]

Kind of agree Eborg, but...........

Poor cultures that I'm aware of (mostly latin america) eat what is cheap and available and have also managed over years to make it taste good. Mexican food, for example can be very complex. Its frequently rice and beans because that is what has been available. I suspect animal fat has been available in these cultures and that is why frying is so popular. Also, fried food tastes good as you mentioned.

There is also another issue and that is spoilage. Middle class in much of latin america doesn't have refrigeration. They make a big batch of beans. They heat up yesterdays beans in the morning to keep them from spoiling. They have chickens for eggs.

It is interesting that the street food of poor cultures such as china and mexico taste good and are very popular here.

What that has to do with the price of a big mack in china, I don't know.

There ya go...Different cultures learned how to make due different ways and a lot of "traditional" food came out of it.

[Blacktalon]

One thing to remember, too, is that those cultures were not nearly as automated as ours is today.

People ate hard but also worked just as hard. Why else were farmers so paper thin? You want a beef patty, go slaughter Bessie in the barn.

That's pretty much the pretense of all this fat people bit of trivia.

I cannot vouch for all of Canada, but we seem to be doing fine here in Southern Ontario. Sure, a few shops have closed here and there but everything else is the norm. The amount of construction going on in downtown and in around Toronto is just nuts. Trump's giant tower in Toronto's financial district is up to its 12th floor during its construction.

I know Alberta has felt a pinch but it seems to be doing just fine. Same with BC, Saskatchewan, and Québec.

One thing that really shocked me was when I went to Ft. Lauderdale last year for New Year's 2009. The amount of houses for sale, under foreclosure or abandoned buildings (both residential and commercial) in that general area was astounding. I can only imagine what it's like now...

[Patrysha]

Alberta's pinch is nothing compared to the States, but it has hit some families hard. Ours is one, but that was more illness and family issues that cut into productivity last year than the general state of the economy.

[Blacktalon]

But hopefully you've pulled out of it now.

Interesting fact, Patrysha, that I heard on the radio today, just this evening actually. Apparently housing sales were at their highest in years during the 4th quarter all across Canada. While I do not know specific details, you can see the article on the 680 News Website (http://www.680news.com).

Doesn't surprise me, really. I read in the Toronto Star last week that the commute in the GTA has doubled in the last 3 or 4 years between Hamilton and Toronto. The worst is between Oakville and through Mississauga. Considering the Hwy 401 is one of the busiest highway corridors in the entire world (I'm not making this up. Look at it on wikipedia), the amount of traffic that goes through there is astounding. Luckily the urban sprawl is heading westward and staying out of Eastern Ontario (for the time being at least).

[yoyoyoyoyo]

when I was homeless, there was no question of "enjoying food."

It was... you get some cans, you get a dollar a day, and you buy yourself some top ramen. Then drink some water, let the noodles expand, and then you get full. I was lucky to afford some fruit, here and there.

But one thing I can say about living in a desert community, with a small town; and not a large town with a soup kitchen, is that I had too much pride to steal from anybody, even large corporate grocery stores.

Meanwhile, I was looking for jobs days without showering.

---

this is not a pity party...

reason I bring that up, is to highlight the difference between someone who went through it the way I did and people today during the recession, who DON'T live below their means and find it puzzling; when you tell them that they should/could save an extra few hundred dollars a month... if they stopped smoking, or canceled their effing satellite dish subscription.

There are people who wouldn't be so bad off, if things like this weren't so puzzling to them.

[orion_joel]

Ht i am not so sure that i agree with your premise that everyone should lower there standard of living, so that everyone can have free health care.

How do you really truly go about this. There is not going to be a part of anything that all people are going to be willing to give up. Do you decrease funding for public schools. Well you could but people with kids wont like that much. While the people without kids would be happy for this. Or decreasing funding for roads isnt a real option either. People with cars will soon get sick of driving through pot holes all the time. While the people without cars could say who needs the road.

This is just two examples, if we sit and think about it you could say the same for just about every facet of life where government funding could be redirected to health care. There is no area that funding could be taken from that would suit everyone. Going down the path of saying the government should choose and make people cut back and give them health care is not the way either.

[Patrysha]

Uh but just to the north you we do have people funded healthcare and I can think of many ways that the Canadian standard of living is lower.Though we do pay higher taxes as I understand it.

I know I read an interesting article on the ways Canadians and Americans are different and as I recall Canadians have a slightly longer average life expectancy.

Why is it assumed that a lower standard of living is the price of this so-called free health care?

(I hate that it is called free...because just because it is free to the end-user or patient doesn't make it free...there are hefty costs involved in delivering high quality health care)

Now, even with all our social programs though...we still have social programs, we still need food banks and coat drives and all the other things that go with poverty.

[orion_joel]

You are absolutely right Patrysha, The healthcare is far from free, to the government, hence the suggestion funding needs to come from somewhere.

Australia has a subsidized health care system. However many aspects of it are still far from no cost even to the consumer.

the point that i was trying to make is that the funding needs to come from somewhere and that somewhere is going to decrease the funding that is available to something else. Without a rise in taxes of course. Yes it is a hard call to make but that is the basic point it will all come back to.

[huggytree]

i use my own family as an example for healthcare

I already have health care for my family..we gain nothing from national health care.

If we give health care as a right to every american then I will have to take thousands out of my pocket to pay for others.....those thousands could have gone to buy things....instead they are going to goverment....thousands out of our economy...just from me....now multiply that by 2/3rds of our country....billions out of our economy....which equals millions of jobs....every dollar to goverment is a dollar which cant be spent..

yea it would be nice if we could give everyone free healthcare...it would be nice to give free college and free day care...how about a free car or a free house...it would be nice...wouldnt we all FEEL good?

our country cant afford any more giveaways....its time to take things back, not give more.

goverment needs spending caps...if they want to try some new giveaway they must eliminate a different giveaway....Were going to be in a new war soon w/ Iran....we cant afford anything new.

[Spider]

It is my view that a more healthy population benefits us all. Firstly, we talk now about health care, but we do not have a healthcare system at all - we have sickness care. If the system - however it is paid for - were to focus on health rather than sickness, the country would save money because of less lost time from illness, less paid medical leave, less medical attention and thus less medical cost.

Imagine how your business would suffer if you only paid attention to the things that went wrong and never made any effort to make things go right.

It's easy to say that people should take care of themselves, should eat right, should exercise, etc. But the fact that they don't makes for more illness and thus higher costs, that we all pay for - either in higher personal health insurance premiums or in higher taxes to pay for uninsured patients, and in higher cost of goods because of inefficient productive work due to disruptions from more illness, and higher business health insurance costs that go into products and services.

I don't have any children but I benefit, as a member of society, from other peoples' children being educated, so it is right for me to pay school taxes. Likewise, if I didn't own a car, I would still benefit from the availability of goods and services that use the roads to get to me, so it is right that I pay taxes to pay for the roads and bridges.

And, similarly, I would benefit from a more healthy society, so it would be right that I pay for universal healthcare, even though I might never use it.

[Harold Mansfield]

It is my view that a more healthy population benefits us all. Firstly, we talk now about health care, but we do not have a healthcare system at all - we have sickness care. If the system - however it is paid for - were to focus on health rather than sickness, the country would save money because of less lost time from illness, less paid medical leave, less medical attention and thus less medical cost.

Imagine how your business would suffer if you only paid attention to the things that went wrong and never made any effort to make things go right.

It's easy to say that people should take care of themselves, should eat right, should exercise, etc. But the fact that they don't makes for more illness and thus higher costs, that we all pay for - either in higher personal health insurance premiums or in higher taxes to pay for uninsured patients, and in higher cost of goods because of inefficient productive work due to disruptions from more illness, and higher business health insurance costs that go into products and services.

I don't have any children but I benefit, as a member of society, from other peoples' children being educated, so it is right for me to pay school taxes. Likewise, if I didn't own a car, I would still benefit from the availability of goods and services that use the roads to get to me, so it is right that I pay taxes to pay for the roads and bridges.

And, similarly, I would benefit from a more healthy society, so it would be right that I pay for universal healthcare, even though I might never use it.

Gotta agree with Spider on this one. The focus from the beginning of the whole Heath care situation was preventative maintenance.

People that don't have, or can't afford Heath Care still get treated, and we still pay for it through higher premiums and taxes, but it costs us more in the short run because they usually do not seek care until there is a very expensive problem.

From the way I understand it..and I could be wrong because I have to admit..I'm so sick of the bickering and the media and Reps. calling it "The Democrats Health Care Plan" rather than calling it "America's Heath Care Plan" that I stopped listening a long time ago....

But from what I understand, it's not a "hand out" heath care plan, it's just Government Sponsored. You still pay premiums, it's just assisted by the Gov, so it's affordable. And then of course there is reform to stop some of the unfair practices like not insuring or dropping people who have pre-existing conditions that need constant care.

If it doesn't pass, we will still be paying for uninsured people just as we have been for years. The only thing that is going to change is that it is going to be more expensive and cost us even more..and eventually it's going to break medicare, which is a large portion of our continuing debt build up.

One thing is certain..if we do nothing..it's going to cripple out economy. Medicare fraud and expenses are draining us..badly. If nothing is done, we know for sure that we are going to have a serious problem...real soon.
I'll take a chance at survival over doing nothing and living on apathy and hope.

[Spider]

I find it interesting to observe that the most common reference is to the Health Care Plan going through Congress and this party's or that party's or someone else's Health Care Plan. Health Care Reform is also used sometimes, but it is none of those things. As far as I can make out, there is no plan afoot to change or modify or reform health care.

It is Health Insurance Reform that is being debated and new laws anticipated.

This is not about health care at all - it's about the paying for it - Health Insurance Reform. This legislation, if the title is to be believed, is about new rules for the insurance industry, not new rules for the medical industry.

And as the insurance industry have tremendous clout in Washington, I do not expect any change beyond window-dressing. We might get a few glaring obscenities changed - like refusing to cover pre-existing conditions, denying coverage after an illness, policies with cleverly-worded exclusions, and such. But once the "public option" was defeated, for me, the whole debate became a sham.

Insurance companies may insure you against falling off a roof, but they don't cover you for hitting the ground! And they are fighting tooth and nail to maintain the status quo. They are succeeding.

[huggytree]

government can do nothing right...nothing

i dont understand why people think they will run health care better and cheaper than the private sector...

if goverment was a business they would be out of business tomarrow.

why not let the states have their own health care...if 1 state has a good new idea let them do it...why wreck the whole country with 1 idea....when we could have 50 different idea's....one may succeed....then other states could copy it..

when the federal govt. makes rules for every state i feel trapped...i cant move to anywhere else...im stuck....i am one of those angry people they talk about on the news... i havent been very politically active in the past....i am now...i gave $ for the first time this year to a candidate....i plan on working for him this fall part time.

if you think the federal government will improve health care name 1 thing they have improved or done right? just one...

[Blacktalon]

Huggy, the PQ (Parti Québecois) would love someone like you to join their ranks...

That aside, I've heard that there are more states invoking their sovereigncy rights, even going so far as issuing their own currencies.

I know that Vermont, Florida, and Texas all seem to be relatively upset at how your feds are going about things.

Is there a festering separatist/sovereignist movement occuring down there now?

[Spider]

government can do nothing right...nothing...Well, thank goodness that's not true, otherwise we would be in a fine pickle, that's for sure. Now, one may not like the political leanings of the party in power, but one must surely acknowledge that America isn't doing too badly in the world today.

Are we to suppose it was the mom and pop stores, small businesses, major corporations, professional organizations, individual teachers, doctors, lawyers, firemen, police, any one or any group that won the cold war....we did win the cold war, I think? If it was the USSR and their government policies and actions that led to their downfall, why can we not see that it was our government policies and actions that led to our success?

Was it any of the individuals or groups just mentioned that alone built America into the world leader it is today? Even if they had worked in unison, could they - the "people" - have achieved that without the government providing the laws and the wherewithal to make it happen?


...i dont understand why people think they will run health care better and cheaper than the private sector...They are not trying to run the health care system - this debate is about the insurance rules relating to it. But to answer your question, let me try to explain why the government could run it better, if you truly do not understand. The main point is the profit element. All things being equal, remove the profit element and the product must be cheaper, and very likely of higher quality.

But, I'd be the first to admit that all things would not be equal. So, rather than us argue about the details, let's look at what happens in other countries. All other developed countries have a government run or government sponsored health care system. All of them, bar none, have cheaper health care than the USA. Plus which, their results are better than is achieved by the American healthcare system, when you consider things like child mortality at birth, longevity, medical accidents and other such data. Even if you believed the quality the same, America's private sector healthcare is much more expensive than other countries' government run systems. So, I must ask you, if other countries can have reduced costs in a government system, why can't America? Why, in your opinion, is America incapable of doing what all other developed countries governments are doing?

Personally, I believe that the US politicians are the equal, at least, of other countries' politicians.


...if goverment was a business they would be out of business tomarrow...Then we must be thankful that the government is not a business.


...why not let the states have their own health care...if 1 state has a good new idea let them do it...why wreck the whole country with 1 idea....when we could have 50 different idea's....one may succeed....then other states could copy it...Actually, I think that's a good idea.


...when the federal govt. makes rules for every state i feel trapped...i cant move to anywhere else...im stuck....i am one of those angry people they talk about on the news... i havent been very politically active in the past....i am now...i gave $ for the first time this year to a candidate....i plan on working for him this fall part time...And your anger is showing. Take a deep breath, Dave, and think rationally rather than emotionally. I can understand your anger, actually, even though I do not agree with its conclusions. It can be very frsutrating trying to make sense of a very complicated process. Democracy may be the best system that mankind has come up with, but it is still a very messy process.


...if you think the federal government will improve health care name 1 thing they have improved or done right? just one...Okay - just one. It is one that has been around for a few years, solely dependent upon government and the people than man it. The freedom you have and enjoy every day. Starting with the Founding Fathers - the government of the day - and continued in every government election and maintained by every politician that walked away from his post when defeated in public election. Not one single president in America in the 233 years of this country's existence has refused to leave office and brought out the army to stay in office.

Besides - as I pointed out - this debate isn't about health care - it is about health insurance and controlling the vices of the insurance industry.

[Steve B]

I bet you the folks in Haiti wished they had a government as effective as ours in instituting and enforcing building codes? Of course, many of our building codes are locally based, but you made a blanket statement about "government" which includes federal, state, and local.

I also enjoy the fact that I'm not speaking German. I give the credit to that to our federal government.

[nealrm]

remove the profit element and the product must be cheaper, and very likely of higher quality.
No the opposite is true, adding the profit element is what makes products cheaper and improves quality per dollar. Look at the improvements computers, cars, cell phone, TVs, paint, cameras, metals, etc. Yes some product do get both cheaper and have less quality, but the quality reduces less than the price. For example: A shirt might have cost $10 in the past now cost $5. However, it last only 60% as long. So for $10 you get 2 shirts that last 120% of the original.

The problem with health insurance is that the system is out of balance. A majority of those that pay the insurance bill (Businesses) don't use the service. Plus those that use the service don't care about the cost, because someone else is paying the bill.

What government needs to do is move the system back into balance.

The government does many things well. It should stick to providing defense, insuring just and equal laws, providing a sound infrastructure, and protecting the common good and weak. It should stay out of redistribution of wealth, and competing with the private sector.

[Spider]

No the opposite is true, adding the profit element is what makes products cheaper and improves quality per dollar. Look at the improvements computers, cars, cell phone.....Okay - I'll accept your argument on that, Neal. The facts seem to prove your point.

Then, can you explain why this doesn't work in healthcare? Other countries have a government run or government sponsored healthcare systems that are all cheaper than the American system. Healthcare is way more expensive in America than other developed nations, and of poorer quality. Healthcare seems to run contrary to your argument. Why is this, do you think?

[nealrm]

Then, can you explain why this does work in healthcare? Other countries have a government run or government sponsored healthcare systems that are all cheaper than the American system. Healthcare is way more expensive in America than other developed nations, and of poorer quality. Healthcare seems to run contrary to your argument. Why is this, do you think?

I think there are 3 main reasons and many smaller factors.

1) The health care system is out of balance. A majority of those that pay the insurance bill (Businesses) don't use the service. Plus those that use the service don't care about the cost, because someone else is paying the bill. So there are no checks and balances on the cost or the service.

2) Fear of lawsuits is resulting in unnecessary and redundant testing. It is also forcing treatments in end-of-life situations that doesn't change the end result. Strangely, the fear of lawsuits is doing more damage than the lawsuits themselves.

3) The lifestyle in the US it terrible from a health viewpoint. Being obese is common to the point of being considered OK. Overeating is glorified on TV shows (Example:Man vs food). Food ads are even selling their product based on how unhealthy they are (Example: Hardees)

As for the poor quality, I don't agree with that statement. Even with our extremely unhealthy life style, our life expectancy is within a single year of most other advanced nations. If we were to drop the extra weight, I would expect both the costs to drop and the life expectancy to rise substantially.

[Patrysha]

Two thoughts one on the healthcare issue and the other that has more to do with the original topic.

From the outside a lot of the cost over runs in the American Health Care system are fueled by insurance and pharmaceutical concerns. I don't begrudge them their profit...they have investors to please and they are running businesses. In a public health care system insurance companies have adapted to cover other things in healthcare (like private hospital rooms, ambulance rides, optical care, dental care and so on...)

Plus with public health care, people at the bottom of the financial system don't have to wait till they need (expensive) life saving care before they seek help. These are expenses that are taken on by the non-system is there billed out in padded billings to the insurance companies and whatever other ways the hospital can manage to cover the costs because after all they are a business too.

I see so many posts on a mothering forum that I am on and for those with no or very poor insurance coverage (and it seems that the most issues seem to be with those with some insurance coverage but that involve high deductibles, high co-pays and limited choices (have to choose in network...often with long waiting lists). It seems like playing Russian Roulette with people's lives to me. It would kill me as a mom to have to wait out ill children to see if it gets bad enough to need a doctor.

When my children have had a cough for more than seven days, I don't have to worry about whether I have enough in the bank to cover the visit to the doctor. Which keeps the system from having to deal with them in the hospital for pneumonia...

Everyone seems to assume that coverage will cause costs to rise. But it really looks from the outside like you already have health care for all...but the way it's run the costs are inflated because the ones at the bottom are only helped in life threatening (expensive) situations...

Oh and the second thought.

Huggytree thought it was shocking that someone went without hot water for months. Well we haven't ever been at a point in our lives where we had to make that choice (my husband is handy thank goodness...he may not be plumbing and heating approved, but he fits our modest budget). When our water heater broke, we went up to the parts store that serves the contractors and got the part to fix it. He did the same when our former refrigerator stopped working. Looked up the problem on the computer, found a parts supplier and got it working. That fix gave us time to fit a new one into the budget. (Though we never quite got there as one was gifted to us the following Christmas).

Anyway, this weekend with our plumbing problem, we knew fairly quickly that the problem was beyond our scope...but we waited until Monday to call in a pro...it may be shocking to some that we made do with limited facilities for a weekend, but it was better for our budget to not have to pay the emergency rates - we can afford to absorb the regular rate without flinching, but not the weekend call out rates.

[billbenson]

I don't know if this is what Patrysha meant, but we pay a premium for drugs etc. because of all the research, development and testing we do. Comparables are often reverse engineered in other countries at a fraction of the cost. We won't sell those here, so we pay a very large premium for quality approved medication.

[yoyoyoyoyo]

if goverment was a business they would be out of business tomarrow.

only reason they are in business is because it can print up as much monopoly money as it needs to stay in business.

Unfair competition? :)