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dpdumas642
12-27-2009, 04:35 PM
I am currently writing an email auto-responder series for my site so I can stay in touch with customers. I looking for a few tips on writing good copy for my emails. Is there some kind of an outline you can use? Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

cbscreative
12-28-2009, 11:45 AM
Tip #1: Be real. Don't sound corporate. Make the emails from you, not "news" or other impersonal sounding email addresses. The studies I am aware of show much better response if it's personal and conversational rather than traditional business sounding.

vangogh
12-28-2009, 12:01 PM
I agree with Steve about being real and not being corporate. Sorry I can't offer a lot of specific advice here, but I do know there's plenty of information online about this. I used to have a video bookmarked about this, but I can't seem to find it.

One thing you can easily do is sign up to be on a number of lists of email marketers. Set up an email account specifically for this purpose so your other email accounts don't make it on ever list out there. Observe the emails that get sent to you and how they're written. Also notice how often you get a new email. I think it's common to get one a day for a week or so and then the emails will trail off.

If you're signing up for things that get you on the typical internet marketer's list it won't be long before one or another offers you some free ebook or video on how to write better autoresponder copy too.

dpdumas642
12-28-2009, 12:05 PM
Thank you for the tip Steve. I think that will be helpful.

dpdumas642
12-28-2009, 12:13 PM
One thing you can easily do is sign up to be on a number of lists of email marketers.

Thanks - That's a great idea I never thought about getting on another list to see what they are doing.

Spider
12-28-2009, 12:24 PM
You could hire Dan Furman. He's the Man for copywriting.

Dan! Post something to get your sig on this thread!

vangogh
12-28-2009, 02:04 PM
Yep Dan should have good advice.

Dave I often sign up to receive an ebook or similar just to see how the person will market to me over time. It can be a pain clearing out my inbox, but I send all those things to an email address I never use for anything else. It's amazing what you can learn when you see all the emails together. They have similar subject lines and content and offers inside.

KristineS
12-28-2009, 03:43 PM
Do what Vangogh mentions and pay attention to the e-mails you get. Really study the ones that intrigue you and try and figure out how they hook you. Also study the ones you dislike and try and figure out what makes them work less well.

Also, and I can't emphasize this enough, check your spelling, grammar and capitalization. It's such a simple thing it often gets overlooked and it can make a big difference in how your e-mails are received and perceived.

You might also check out Marketing Vox (http://www.marketingvox.com/). It's a blog and also an e-mail newsletter and they often have great tips on e-mail marketing.

dpdumas642
12-28-2009, 09:28 PM
Do what Vangogh mentions and pay attention to the e-mails you get. Really study the ones that intrigue you and try and figure out how they hook you. Also study the ones you dislike and try and figure out what makes them work less well.

Also, and I can't emphasize this enough, check your spelling, grammar and capitalization. It's such a simple thing it often gets overlooked and it can make a big difference in how your e-mails are received and perceived.

You might also check out Marketing Vox (http://www.marketingvox.com/). It's a blog and also an e-mail newsletter and they often have great tips on e-mail marketing.

Thanks Kristine for the great tips. I definitely appreciate your help.

I notice that we are almost neighbors. I live in Manistee, MI

Dan Furman
12-28-2009, 10:27 PM
For me, the biggest thing about "stay in touch" e-mail marketing is to make it interesting to read. This means both in subject and writing style. The subject should be something somewhat interesting to your clients, and the style should be as conversational as possible. In other words, when they see your e-mail, they want to read it. Almost like a blog via e-mail, really.

This doesn't mean that you always have to send something business related, or even useful. For example, there was a funny video floating around here about clients negotiating price (here it is (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2a8TRSgzZY)) - you could send that with a brief note to almost any service type business.

dpdumas642
12-28-2009, 10:53 PM
For me, the biggest thing about "stay in touch" e-mail marketing is to make it interesting to read. This means both in subject and writing style. The subject should be something somewhat interesting to your clients, and the style should be as conversational as possible. In other words, when they see your e-mail, they want to read it. Almost like a blog via e-mail, really.

This doesn't mean that you always have to send something business related, or even useful. For example, there was a funny video floating around here about clients negotiating price (here it is (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2a8TRSgzZY)) - you could send that with a brief note to almost any service type business.

Hi Dan,

Those tips are going to be extremely helpful. I checked out that video and I got a good laugh. Thanks so much for your help.

Spider
12-28-2009, 11:35 PM
"Stay in touch" e-mail marketing? So that's what all those e-mail messages are that I never open and condemn to trash en bloc! I often wondered!!!

Anita Ashland
12-29-2009, 01:08 AM
I looking for a few tips on writing good copy for my emails. Is there some kind of an outline you can use?

Most of the time I use the following structure in the email copy that I write:

* Begin with a story or interesting description and make the first paragraph very short, if possible. Each paragraph in the email should only have 1-2 sentences.
* The email should have a frame - a time and a place. For example, “The other day I was sitting in Starbucks…”
* Include a transition phrase or two at the end of the story so that you gracefully segue into your sales pitch or point that you want to make.
* Include 2-3 links to the sales page throughout the body of the email (if it's a soft sell I only include one link near the end and in the P.S.).
* Precede each link with a question or a short sentence.
* Include a P.S. that mentions one bonus, benefit or intriguing fact that wasn’t mentioned in the body and also include a link to the website in the P.S.

Hope that helps. Good luck.

vangogh
12-29-2009, 01:11 AM
Thanks Anita. Now that you put those points out there I can say it is how many of the emails I receive read. The story aspect seems particularly well used. Of course it works well in many types of writing.

And welcome to the forum.

Dan Furman
12-29-2009, 02:23 AM
"Stay in touch" e-mail marketing? So that's what all those e-mail messages are that I never open and condemn to trash en bloc! I often wondered!!!

That's because they never interested you!!! :)

Had they sent an e-mail that was interesting at some point, you'd probably read what they had to say everytime. Or at least glance at it.

Steve B
12-29-2009, 03:59 AM
What is an autoresponder?

I've had very good success with the e-mails I send to my customers. I make sure it is clear they are coming from me and not from a service. I don't use fancy fonts and only use color every once in a while if it makes it easier to read. I rarely insert photos. There are tons of people that won't open the e-mail (me and Spider for examples) if they even suspect it's a marketing piece. I try to make them as short as possible, and I try not to send them too often. I probably send out 5 - 7 a year. In my case, I've personally met each of my customers so the personal nature of the e-mails seems to fit.

I make sure each e-mail has something potentially useful to them. In my case I usually start with tips on how to keep their dog safe and/or how to avoid breaking something so they can avoid a service call. Telling them how to NOT need me and spend money seems to be appreciated and gives me credibility.

I have several businesses that I cross market, so I usually (not always) end up with a pitch for one of my other services. But, it's fairly subtle and informational. Sometimes I use a little humor - but, that can be risky.

As soon as I got away from the services (constant contact etc.) - I have not had anyone "unsubscribe" to the e-mails (I follow the CAN/SPAM guidelines and make sure it's clear how to get off my list).

Very few people comment via e-mail, but when I see them in public they usually go out of their way to tell me they appreciate them. Several have told me they forward my e-mails to their friends and neighbors. I send to about 500 people and I can always count on some new business when I do. I also get tons of referrals from my customers so I'm guessing keeping in touch with them has helped this. I even get referrals from people I've never heard of - so I'm guessing some of these forwarded e-mails might be part of it.

PM me with your e-mail address and I can send you a sample if you're interested.

KristineS
12-29-2009, 10:00 AM
I notice that we are almost neighbors. I live in Manistee, MI

It's a small world. My Dad lives in Wellston, so I've been to Manistee quite a bit.

Spider
12-29-2009, 10:24 AM
That's because they never interested you!!! :)
Had they sent an e-mail that was interesting at some point, you'd probably read what they had to say everytime. Or at least glance at it.How can they interest me if I don't read them? Out of the 50 or so e-mail messages I wake up to every morning, I look through the sender addresses to see which ones I recognise and delete all the others. Then delete most of those I recognise, anyway. That's before I even look at the subject line.

Have you any idea of the open rate of these "Stay-in-touch" spams, Dan?

vangogh
12-29-2009, 11:24 AM
Steve, autoresponders are pretty much what they sound like. It's an automatic response via email. Say someone offers a free ebook or whitepaper or anything you express interest in downloading. They ask for your email in exchange for the freebie and send you an email so you can download. The email is sent out automatically in response to your request.

You can set up a campaign of emails in advance and the system will send them out at appropriate times. Here's an example of how it might work.

Say you've created a course on training your dog that you charge people for access. Realizing that most people won't just give you money without knowing a little more you create a free PDF that's a mix of useful information and sales pitch for your course. In order to get the free PDF someone needs to supply an email address.

Your system is set to automatically send out the email where the PDF can be downloaded. You might also set it up to send that same person an email a day for a week with each email having some useful information along with a link to your course. Because the person has expressed interest in your course by requesting the free PDF, there's a good chance that if you "stay in touch" for a few days and remind them of the useful information you have to share, that they may sign up for your course.

Once the week is over you probably don't send the emails out as often, but you still send some out periodically until at some point maybe a year you stop sending emails.

You set up the system once and then it all works automatically. Aside from any work you do on the training course itself the only work you need to do is drive people to the initial page where they can request the PDF.

As much as we might dislike getting emails all the time what I described above can work very well if done right. People seem to respond better to email marketing than they do to many other forms of online marketing.

dpdumas642
12-29-2009, 12:00 PM
Most of the time I use the following structure in the email copy that I write:

* Begin with a story or interesting description and make the first paragraph very short, if possible. Each paragraph in the email should only have 1-2 sentences.
* The email should have a frame - a time and a place. For example, “The other day I was sitting in Starbucks…”
* Include a transition phrase or two at the end of the story so that you gracefully segue into your sales pitch or point that you want to make.
* Include 2-3 links to the sales page throughout the body of the email (if it's a soft sell I only include one link near the end and in the P.S.).
* Precede each link with a question or a short sentence.
* Include a P.S. that mentions one bonus, benefit or intriguing fact that wasn’t mentioned in the body and also include a link to the website in the P.S.

Hope that helps. Good luck.

Excellent post. Thanks Anita that was the outline I was looking for. Great tip on the PS. That is one thing I always read in an email.

Dan Furman
12-29-2009, 12:01 PM
How can they interest me if I don't read them? Out of the 50 or so e-mail messages I wake up to every morning, I look through the sender addresses to see which ones I recognise and delete all the others. Then delete most of those I recognise, anyway. That's before I even look at the subject line.

Have you any idea of the open rate of these "Stay-in-touch" spams, Dan?

So, if you don't already know the sender, you delete the e-mail... ok, that's fine. Then no, there's nothing anyone can do if you are going to automatically disregard any e-mail from someone you don't already know.

But let me ask - how many clients do you think you lost by doing this?

Edit: Also, Frederick, the OP was asking about staying in touch with customers. You put "stay in touch" in quotes as if the phrase were dubious (further cemented by the use of the word "spam"). I don't think we are talking about the same thing.

Listen, I don't like spam either. But someone I did business / corrosponded with? That's definitely not always spam.

Spider
12-29-2009, 01:54 PM
Several questions to answer there, Dan -

1. if you don't already know the sender, you delete the e-mail -- Almost, Yes. I said "recognize" not "know." Any e-mail message that has not been specificaly invited is spam, by my definition. So, any e-mail I receive that has been invited, I will recognize the sender. You correctly worry about me missing potential clients, and that is your second question--

2. how many clients do you think you lost by doing this? -- Prospective clients come to me through my website, and the mail-to link has been set up with a ?Subject=MENTORING ENQUIRY attribute. True, I said "before I look at the subject line" but the all-caps MENTORING ENQUIRY stands out sufficiently to come to my attention. Prospective clients could e-mail me from my Facebook exposure, but I think they are more likely to send an internal FB message, and likely to be FB Friends and so be recognized. Likewise, with e-mails as a result of discussion forum like this one, I would recognize the sender's name. Still, I figure, most of these would first pass through my website and pick up the MENTORING ENQUIRY attribute.

So, to answer your question - not many, probably none.

3. staying in touch with customers -- This is probably the largest part of the spam I receive every day. When I buy something from someone, that does not automatically mean I want to hear from them on a regular basis, or, in fact, ever again! The best online merchants ask if their customers want to receive regular updates. If I click 'yes', then I have invited their "Stay-in-touch" e-mails. If I answer 'no' or don't answer at all, that means I have not invited them, and whatever they send after that is spam (unless it relates directly to the previous purchase.)

4. I don't think we are talking about the same thing. -- I'm talking about uninvited "stay-in-touch" e-mails. What are you talking about?

5. someone I did business / corrosponded with? That's definitely not always spam. -- Someone I did business with and didn't specifically invite them to "stay in touch" with me, is spamming me when they do. Someone with whom I corresponded is invited by the mere fact of corresponding. Corresponding is a two-way flow of communication.

Now, I realise, Dan, that my definition is not necessarily the CAN/SPAM definition, but, in my view, all the CAN/SPAM rules did was to legalize spam, and that killed the e-mail app as a serious business tool.

cbscreative
12-29-2009, 02:07 PM
This subject inevitably ends up hitting a hot button with some who think all email marketing equals spam, but if the people who feel that way had their way, the rest of us would miss out on things we WANT to receive.

To some, getting discount offers from a store they like to buy from is a welcome email. To others, it's spam. Should we ban the email marketing because some people don't like it?

Real spam is illegal and should be, everyone hates it. I personally think they should make an example out of every convicted spammer, and lock them up with no chance of ever gaining access to a computer. But let's be clear about what spam is. It is unwanted email from someone you don't know who harvested your email address in some way or bought it from another spammer. If you have done business with the company, or signed up to receive email, then it is not spam.

I would even be careful with sending to people you've done business with. If it's just a thank you, and/or an invitation to receive emails, fine, but I would make sure to gain permission before sending out further email (which I think Spider kind of hit on in his last post).

vangogh
12-29-2009, 03:18 PM
When I buy something from someone, that does not automatically mean I want to hear from them on a regular basis, or, in fact, ever again!

Sometimes that's true for all of us. Other times we're happy to hear about future deals or company news. My guess is you get these emails because whether you realized it or not at the time of purchase you agreed to get them. I agree with you that there should be an opt in checkbox before you receive future email, but that's not always the case and sometimes the box is there and checked by default.


Someone I did business with and didn't specifically invite them to "stay in touch" with me, is spamming me when they do

So if you hired me to design a new site for you and 6 months later I emailed to see how the site was doing and maybe even to suggest something to improve it, would you consider that email spam?

Frederick I think you have a low tolerance for spam and have a wide definition of what constitutes spam in your inbox. Nothing wrong with that by the way. Clearly email marketing isn't going to be successful with you. It's a good reason why people should have those opt in checkboxes before sending email.

Just know that not everyone will see it as you do. For example on occasion I order in from Pizza Hut and place my order online. To complete the order I have to agree to get email from them. Every few days they send me something and most of them I delete without reading. Some of the emails are about deals they're offering and if I happen to be thinking of ordering in again I'll check the deal and possibly order from them.

And of course at any time I can click the link at the bottom of the email to unsubscribe.

It's not much different from them sending coupons to me in the mail. Yes the amount of junk mail can be overwhelming, but it's easy enough to throw most of it and occasionally there is something in there I want. It's actually better with the email since it only goes out to someone who has at least expressed an interest at some point.

Dan Furman
12-29-2009, 03:44 PM
Several questions to answer there, Dan

snipped for brevity.

We're not going to agree on this. It's my opinion that some people are very aggressive in regards to what constitutes "spam", and your opinion/feelings on it put you in that category (in my mind). Nothing wrong with that, mind you, but we're miles apart here.

Yes, I don't care for Nigerian millions needing transfer or discounts on ******. But people I did business with? Go ahead and e-mail me the latest offers / etc. No problem at all. Part of doing business, in my mind. I'll tell you to stop or block you if it annoys me too much.

vangogh
12-29-2009, 06:34 PM
art of doing business, in my mind. I'll tell you to stop or block you if it annoys me too much.

That's how I feel too.

Just another thought. Say someone who reads my blog wants to get in touch for whatever reason. They decide to email me directly instead of using my contact form. I wouldn't recognize the return address and it would come across as unsolicited. Hardly spam though. Someone I would honestly want to hear from.

Spider
12-29-2009, 09:49 PM
This subject inevitably ends up hitting a hot button with some who think all email marketing equals spam, but if the people who feel that way had their way, the rest of us would miss out on things we WANT to receive...No, you wouldn't - not if my wishes were adopted. I only ask that e-mail marketers don't market to me without being invited to do so. If "the rest of you" want to be email marketed to, then invite them. My way isn't forcing you to receive or not receive what I want. Neither do I expect those who want to receive e-mail marketing to force me to receive what they want. There are mechanisms out there that we both can be served in the way we each want to be served. It's either laziness or bad manners that leads companies to disregard the wishes of the people whose inboxes they violate.


...To some, getting discount offers from a store they like to buy from is a welcome email. To others, it's spam. Should we ban the email marketing because some people don't like it?...That is not what I am asking for. I'm all for e-mail marketing - any kind of marketing, in fact. I am pro-business. Marketing crosses the line when they offend the people to whom they think they are marketing. At that point, it becomes counter-productive - anti-marketing, in fact! And that applies no matter what type of marketing we are talking about.


...Real spam is illegal and should be, everyone hates it. ... But let's be clear about what spam is. It is unwanted email from someone you don't know who harvested your email address in some way or bought it from another spammer. If you have done business with the company, or signed up to receive email, then it is not spam...I agree with you with one small proviso - If you have done business with the company, OR signed up to receive email... That says if I sign up to receive it, I must accept it until I unsubscribe. I agree. It also says, if I do business with a company, I must accept their future marketing e-mails regardless of whether I want them or not. That is what I do not agree with. I would agree with your statement, Steve, is it was, "If you have done business with the company, AND signed up to receive email..." And, not Or.

1. Because I bought a pair of green socks that doesn't mean I must suffer their e-mails about every bit of clothing or any other items they wish to foist on me.

2. From their own POV, offending a satisfied customer and turning them into a dissatified customer, is the absolute worst form of marketing possible.


...I would even be careful with sending to people you've done business with. If it's just a thank you, and/or an invitation to receive emails, fine, but I would make sure to gain permission before sending out further email (which I think Spider kind of hit on in his last post).That is all I ask - it is what I expect - it is what I recommend to companies, also.

Spider
12-29-2009, 10:25 PM
So if you hired me to design a new site for you and 6 months later I emailed to see how the site was doing and maybe even to suggest something to improve it, would you consider that email spam?No. I already excluded that - "unless it relates directly to the previous purchase."


...Clearly email marketing isn't going to be successful with you. It's a good reason why people should have those opt in checkboxes before sending email...Exactly! And not only because I don't want to be inconvenienced but because it is counterproductive for the company. Every piece of marketing costs something. Every prospect who is offended by it, represents wasted advertising money and is a lost potential customer. But in addition to that, the company must now win a sale to offset that loss. Lose 10 potential customers in this fashion and you negate the next 10 actual sales.


...And of course at any time I can click the link at the bottom of the email to unsubscribe...Just before Thanksgiving, I unsubscribed from several regular e-mail marketers because my inbox was getting inundated. Almost immediately my daily e-mail count went up, and the additional e-mails came from places I had no knowledge of. Did the unsubscribed places sell my address off to other marketers, or was it the Thanksgiving/Christmas marketing surge? I don't know, but what I do know is my e-mail count immediately rose and I started getting a virus-blocked warning from my ISP every few days, something I had not experienced for years. So, now I am wary of unsubscribing from anyone and I have to waste an hour a day decluttering my inbox and trying to sort out what I want from what I do not want. Even if I only value my time at $30/hour, that's $10,000 a year lost money!


...It's actually better with the email since it only goes out to someone who has at least expressed an interest at some point.That is not true. At least 50% of my e-mails are from people and companies I have no interest in at all and whom I cannot unsubscribe for fear of another increase in spam and virus attempts.

Some time ago, I read that 80% of all e-mail traffic was unsolicited commerical e-mail, other sundry spam and complaints about the spam. I had hoped that that figure was reduced by now, but it seems from my recent experience that it is as bad as ever, if not actually worse.

Spider
12-29-2009, 10:38 PM
...Say someone who reads my blog wants to get in touch for whatever reason. They decide to email me directly instead of using my contact form. I wouldn't recognize the return address and it would come across as unsolicited. Hardly spam though. Someone I would honestly want to hear from.Then you would have to devise some method to identify that e-mail amongst all the spam you get. My method, as explained, is to not have a contact form but to have an e-mail link with ?Subject=MENTORING ENQUIRY as an attribute. I could then, if I chose - filter that in my e-mail app to transfer those e-mails to a separate folder.

But, my point is, why should we be forced to take these diversionary steps - which are not going to be entirely foolproof - just because inconsiderate companies and other e-mail marketers don't give a monkey's .... about how we feel about how much they inconvenience us, waste our time and our money?

Let me remind you all - I am pro-business. I am all for marketing and I am even for e-mail marketing.... if it is done responsibly and with proper consideration for the people to whom the marketers want to market.

vangogh
12-29-2009, 10:44 PM
I already excluded that - "unless it relates directly to the previous purchase."

A lot of those emails are because of a previous purchase. I realize in your eyes they don't relate to the previous purchase, but I'd bet the company sending it to you would say it is. Say you purchased a laptop online. A week later the company sends you an email to see if you're interested in an extended service contract. Is that related?

In my Pizza Hut example above wouldn't a coupon with a discount for pizza be related to my initial purchase of a pizza?

I completely agree that there should always be opt in. In fact I think it should be double opt in. Obviously these companies aren't selling you anything again. If anything you'll be less likely to buy from them in the future. It's a waste of time to send you those emails.

Some companies don't do that. Pizza Hit didn't. My options were to get receive their email or order from somewhere else. I accepted the email even though I didn't want it, because I wanted to order something from them that night.

A lot of sites will automatically have the opt in checked by defaulted. Granted that's not exactly an opt in. Sometimes when there is no box they still mention they'll be sending emails after the purchase. Maybe your answer is to stop doing business with any company that defaults to checking the opt in or requires you to get email from them in the future. If you do continue to place the order you can't really complain if it was part of the purchase agreement.


At least 50% of my e-mails are from people and companies I have no interest in at all

If the email is from a company you've purchased from in the past then you have expressed interest. Because I order one pizza I've expressed an interest in pizza. If these are from companies you've never order from it's a different story. It's possibly spam by definition or somewhere whether you realized it or not you gave permission for someone to sell your email address as part of a list. Not the best way to market, but clearly something that's done.

Ultimately the reason you get these emails is because the result in profit to the business sending them. You might not be buying, but enough people do end up buying and the cost of sending the email is so little that the net result is more profit for the company sending them.

vangogh
12-29-2009, 10:53 PM
Looks like you were posting while I was.

I don't like pre-filling the subject line of the email. Also some people may not click the link, but copy and paste the email address and the subject line wouldn't be there anyway.


about how we feel about how much they inconvenience us

Emphasis mine. This isn't how we feel. It's how you feel. I'm sure there are others who feel exactly as you do. Keep in mind though, that many of us here don't mind as much as you do. I'm not saying either of us is right or wrong in how we feel. Just that not everyone reacts as strongly against getting mail from companies we've purchased.

And again in the end if the email is making money for the business sending it then the email is probably getting sent.

By the way I'm not sure why you can't unsubscribe from some of the emails. You should be able to and if you can't then the company sending the email is violating spam laws. Sometimes it could simply be an error. Maybe a database that failed temporarily. Hard to say one way or the other if you're getting more email as a result of unsubscribing. You shouldn't be, but again it could be companies in violation of spam laws.

cbscreative
12-29-2009, 10:58 PM
I agree with you with one small proviso - If you have done business with the company, OR signed up to receive email... That says if I sign up to receive it, I must accept it until I unsubscribe. I agree. It also says, if I do business with a company, I must accept their future marketing e-mails regardless of whether I want them or not. That is what I do not agree with. I would agree with your statement, Steve, is it was, "If you have done business with the company, AND signed up to receive email..." And, not Or.

That's exactly why I further clarified my statement with the last paragraph in my post. I also think it's a bad idea to email customers without gaining their permission for ongoing emails. I think emailing them a personal note on occasion to "touch base" is a good thing. Including them in any kind of "mailing campaign" without explicit permission is counter productive just as you said.

Evan
12-29-2009, 11:07 PM
Tip #1: Be real. Don't sound corporate. Make the emails from you, not "news" or other impersonal sounding email addresses. The studies I am aware of show much better response if it's personal and conversational rather than traditional business sounding.

I don't know how, but I get e-mails from Barack Obama (through the DNC).

Though I also subscribe to his Twitter feed (which goes to my phone), so I can tell people "Hold on, I got a text message from the President." It sounds more important than it really is!

Spider
12-29-2009, 11:16 PM
...Ultimately the reason you get these emails is because the result in profit to the business sending them. You might not be buying, but enough people do end up buying and the cost of sending the email is so little that the net result is more profit for the company sending them.Maybe. Maybe not. You can only tell if the company continues to market in this way.

I really don't know if any of the spam I receive now is from the same companies I was getting spam from a year ago. Maybe those guys from a year ago have given it up as a losing game. Maybe there is a constant turnover of spammers as people and companies find it unproductive and new people and companies give it a try.

Just because a lot of people do something doesn't mean they all find it profitable. It doesn't even mean any of them find it profitable.

Plus, how many do you suppose calculate what the loss of the offended prospects cost them? I'm sure they think, "Okay - 98% of the list didn't buy anything but 2% did. That's a profit of $xxx.xx Great! It was worth it." I would like to know what percentage of the 98% were actually offended and vowed to never buy anything from that company again. It's not hard to imagine that 2% of the list were turned off by the spam and now choose to shop at a competitor.

Trust is a very hard thing to win and a costly thing to lose in business.

Spider
12-29-2009, 11:40 PM
...I don't like pre-filling the subject line of the email. Also some people may not click the link, but copy and paste the email address and the subject line wouldn't be there anyway...I don't know why you don't like prefilling the subject line, but that's okay. That's how I overcome the problem. I'm sure you can find another way.

A would-be enquirer cannot copy and paste if you have a different achor text. " e-mail me HERE " It's true, they could still delete the subject line and place their own there. I've never found anyone do that, though.


...By the way I'm not sure why you can't unsubscribe from some of the emails. You should be able to and if you can't then the company sending the email is violating spam laws. Sometimes it could simply be an error. Maybe a database that failed temporarily. Hard to say one way or the other if you're getting more email as a result of unsubscribing. You shouldn't be, but again it could be companies in violation of spam laws.I meant, I cannot unsubscribe for fear of getting more spam and virus attacks as a consequence. And I accept that they may be breaking spamming law, but who is the spamming authority? Who enforces these laws and of what do these laws comprise? And do I really want to waste even more time in trying to eliminate one spammer when there are hundreds waiting to replace him in my inbox?

It is a insoluble problem. It is a world problem, and I am not bothered enough to want to save the world.

vangogh
12-30-2009, 01:37 AM
I don't have anything particularly against setting a subject line, but I prefer to let someone else fill them out. It's just another bit of information I can get from them.

In some places I do use anchor text like contact me, though it's usually linked to my contact page. I like leaving the anchor text for the email as the email address to make it easier for people to know what it is.


cannot unsubscribe for fear of getting more spam and virus attacks as a consequence.

That shouldn't happen if it's a legitimate business sending you the email. The link really does unsubscribe you from their list. If it's true spam in the sense of it being from a completely unknown quantity then sometimes it is best not to click to unsubscribe as you may be confirming your email is a working address. If it's a business you know then you shouldn't have to worry.

One thing I do is when I grab freebies or I'm unsure if a company will be sending me emails I don't want is use a throwaway email address. It's easier to delete email in those addresses since everything gets deleted and I don't need to look at it to decide.

Spider
12-30-2009, 12:13 PM
I agree it shouldn't happen - and I rather hoped that it doesn't happen much anymore - but it obviously does. Not that I am not unsubscribed when I request. It's just that a lot more spam resulted which leads me to believe that my e-mail adress was deleted from one list and passed on to someone else or added to some other list.

That shouldn't happen, either - that's what I object to over spam.

We shouldn't even be discussing how to avoid our e-mail addresses being spammed or having to devise ways to identify wanted e-mail from unwanted e-mail. We shouldn't even be thinking of throw-away addresses. We shouldn't have to do these things, but we do. That's what annoys me.

And almost all of this is caused by inconsiderate e-mail marketing - whether one considers it spam or not - whether one thinks they have the right to e-mail people by the millions or not - whether one thinks their product is so wonderful EVERYONE will want it.. or not!

Sending an e-mail to someone who has not specifically, consciously, purposely made it clear that they want to hear from you is not just inconsiderate, it is bad manners, bad logic and bad business.

Patrysha
12-30-2009, 01:30 PM
We shouldn't even be discussing how to avoid our e-mail addresses being spammed or having to devise ways to identify wanted e-mail from unwanted e-mail. We shouldn't even be thinking of throw-away addresses. We shouldn't have to do these things, but we do. That's what annoys me.


We shouldn't have to lock our doors or need alarm systems or worry about places that we can and cannot go at night either...

I'm confident no one who is active here spams.

The only people who get on my lists are those who sign up for it and they can unsub at any time...

There's only so much we can do for the idiots who don't follow ethical email marketing standards...and those are the thing like cloaking emails, using throwaway addresses, spam filters and changing addresses that have been overrun...we shouldn't have to, but it is what it is.

vangogh
12-30-2009, 02:34 PM
Frederick's there's probably not much you can do about the people sending you email because they bought your name with a list or because they found your email somewhere online. No one wants to receive email from common spammers.

However with the companies you've done business with who send you email you agreed to get as part of a purchase it's a different story. If you don't want their email any more then click the link to unsubscribe. If you're not willing to do that don't blame the company for continuing to send you email.

I agree all companies should use a double opt in before sending email, but some don't. You were free to not purchase from those companies or hold back your email from them. I understand you don't want to get more email when you unsubscribe. That's not going to happen if the company sending you email is legit. I unsubscribe from things all the time and never receive more email. The only time the unsubscribe would lead to more email is if the original email is sent by a common spammer. However that's not really the kind of email we're talking about here.

Spider
12-30-2009, 03:05 PM
Well, VG and others, if the only e-mail you get is from legitimate companies and you definately asked for it or approved it, then I'm happy for you, but tend to think you're either very lucky or not paying attention. But what are "legitimate companies?" A few months ago, I received an e-mail from the White House, signed by one Barack Obama, President. I presume it was THE White House. I didn't buy anything from whitehouse.gov nor opt in for any kind of newsletter. It was a one-off message, anyway. Now, if the President of the United States is going to spam us, what hope is there of stopping anyone else?


We shouldn't have to lock our doors or need alarm systems or worry about places that we can and cannot go at night either...I agree, but just because we have to lock our doors is no excuse for having to tolerate spam, or vice versa. And I can gladly report that burglary doesn't cost me $10,000 a year. If I was getting burgled every night I might be as vociferous over it as I am over my daily battle with e-mail spam/e-mail marketing.

vangogh
12-30-2009, 05:35 PM
I get spam email from companies I never heard of all the time. I don't think anyone here is saying they don't get those emails. It's just that you have to realize that email is not the same as the one Pizza Hut sends me.

I don't mean to put words in your mouth, but it's been coming across like you're grouping all the emails together. Apologies if I'm drawing the wrong conclusion. I think those of us who have been posting are seeing two different kinds of emails and we're specifically talking about one of those types and not the other. Again apologies if I'm misinterpreting.

The White House email could have come to you because you're a registered voter or more likely a registered Democrat, given who's in office. It could also have been from somewhere other the White House.

Sometimes it's not always clear which kind of email you're getting. We don't always remember the companies we do business with or sometimes it's the parent company sending us email. I get plenty of email that at first glance I would think spam, but then I realize it is from someone I gave my email address to. Maybe it was something I purchased or maybe it was for a free ebook or white paper. I don't particularly want those emails and at times they are annoying and even overwhelming in how many get sent. However I don't consider any of them spam, because at some point in time I did say it was ok to send me something.

I don't unsubscribe by the way, because I learn from seeing the emails and their subject lines and how they go about trying to sell me something. A few that get too annoying I do unsubscribe from. And just about all those emails go to an address that only exists so I can sign up for things without my other inboxes getting filled up.

Steve B
12-30-2009, 07:24 PM
I agree with Frederick 100% on this. I get e-mails from almost every company I EVER bought something from on-line in the last 4 or 5 years. I NEVER have given them permission to send me future e-mails. I look very carefully for those automatically checked boxes and when they are there, I uncheck them. The whole concept of buying a "personal" computer, then having to invest time and money to prevent other people from putting stuff on your computer is very annoying. It's also annoying that I have to lock my car and my house etc.

I have unsubscribed from some e-mail about Golf at least 6 times and I still get their e-mails daily. They don't list their physical address (which is a violation of CAN/SPAM rules) and I can't find out how to report them to the "Spam" authorities.

Before I had a business I used to change e-mails every few years just to dodge all the junk e-mails.

Of course, I'm a bit of a hypocrite because I send e-mails to my customers 6 - 8 times per year. I usually tell them why I am asking for their e-mail address, but I don't always remember to. So, I'm probably annoying a few people like Frederick - but my e-mails are obviously personal since I don't use a service and they can legitimately unsubscribe.

Anyway - I'm with you on this Frederick.

Spider
12-30-2009, 09:46 PM
...Anyway - I'm with you on this Frederick.Phew! I was beginning to think I was the only one!

Dan Furman
12-30-2009, 11:59 PM
Well, VG and others, if the only e-mail you get is from legitimate companies and you definately asked for it or approved it, then I'm happy for you, but tend to think you're either very lucky or not paying attention.

But now you're just railing against spam in general. That's not what this thread was about.

vangogh
12-31-2009, 01:30 AM
I get e-mails from almost every company I EVER bought something from on-line

Umm...so those emails you send to your customers...they've all given you permission prior to you sending them? Why is it ok for you to send emails to your customers who haven't specifically asked for them, but it's not ok for other companies to send you emails that haven't specifically asked for?

Ok you obviously realize the above.


but my e-mails are obviously personal since I don't use a service and they can legitimately unsubscribe.

That's you justifying what you're doing. Whether or not the email is personal is irrelevant. And in truth your emails aren't personal since you're sending the same email to everyone. The method of delivery has nothing to do with whether or not the email is personal.


But now you're just railing against spam in general. That's not what this thread was about.

That was my point earlier. Some emails are definitely spam. Others are sent because you've established some kind of relationship with a company. The relationship might only have been making a purchase, but it's still a relationship.

None of us want to get spam. Email marketing is not spam though. Two different kinds of email.

Steve B
12-31-2009, 02:48 AM
Steve - I admitted I was a hypocrite - and I specifically stated I don't always remember to tell them why I'm asking for their e-mail. I don't understand why you asked the question when it was already answered in the same post.

My e-mails are sent to people that I've personally met and in most cases specifically told that I'm going to be sending e-mails to (and the exact nature of the e-mails). I guess you're right, since I don't change each e-mail for the individual person, it can't be considered a personal e-mail, but it's certainly in a far different category than most of the e-mails I'm talking about. But, again, let me be clear, I recognize that I'm a bit of a hypocrite. I use the qualifier "bit" since I usually remember to ask their permission and explain exactly the type and how many e-mails they may get from me.

I think the method of delivery is a bit relevant because you can reply to my e-mails and the reply will be received by the person that sent the e-mail (making it a more "personal" means of delivery in my opinion). If I hit "reply" to the e-mails that I get from Macy's - I don't think it even allows a response. If I "unsubscribe" it's handled by the computer program - and any comments I might write are probably not read by the person that drafted the e-mail.

vangogh
12-31-2009, 03:12 AM
I know and I was being a little hard on you on purpose to get a reaction. Just wanted to point out that what you did isn't all that different from what other companies do. You are at times sending an email to people who haven't asked for it and aren't expecting it. You do have a relationship with those people based on having installed a fence.

That's really not different from the situation where you buy something online and the box to receive email is checked by default. In both cases the relationship is based on a purchase. In both cases the business is letting the customer know they'll be sending an email. In both cases it's possible the customer isn't aware an email is coming.


I think the method of delivery is a bit relevant because you can reply to my e-mails and the reply will be received by the person that sent the e-mail

So what you're saying is it's ok to send out emails asking people to buy vi*gra as long as it's sent directly from something like Outlook?


If I hit "reply" to the e-mails that I get from Macy's - I don't think it even allows a response. If I "unsubscribe" it's handled by the computer program - and any comments I might write are probably not read by the person that drafted the e-mail.

True, but I assume they have another email address that will be answered by a real person at the company. You may unsubscribe people manually, but it's not really efficient. Much better to have it done automatically and probably less prone to error too.

Dan Furman
12-31-2009, 03:39 AM
None of us want to get spam. Email marketing is not spam though. Two different kinds of email.

I have found that some people are just astonishingly militant when it comes to e-mail / spam. From how they sound about it, uninvited e-mails actually seem to make them angry.

Personally, I just hit delete and move on.

One of my New Year's resolutions is to stay in touch with old clients more. That will mean a few e-mails to those that did business with me over the last few years. I see nothing wrong with this - if I offend or anger someone by sending that first e-mail, so be it.

Steve B
12-31-2009, 07:31 AM
Steve- you're taking things out of context. Your ****** example is likely not coming from the owner of a company that you personally met and did business with. If it was - then, yes, it would be exactly the same as my situation. Otherwise, it doesn't make sense to compare the two.

You also made reference to a box being checked by default. I was clear in an earlier post that I'm very careful about leaving any boxes checked that would do this. So putting it back in context, I'm not getting annoyed at things I agreed to - I'm annoyed at things I never agreed to. Perhaps you're assuming I'm not very careful and I've missed a lot of them. I seriously doubt I missed even a single one.

The fact that Macy's has another e-mail address I could in theory find and respond doesn't pertain to my point either. As a matter of fact, it underscores my point for me (thanks). With my personal e-mail coming from Outlook - you can hit reply and have your response sent directly to me - the sender. This does not require any additional effort such as going to the website and trying to find a different e-mail address which will likely be sent to a rather anonamous customer service dept.

Dan, I agree delete and move on is the only way to go over this - it's not worth spending much time worrying about.

Spider
12-31-2009, 03:23 PM
But now you're just railing against spam in general. That's not what this thread was about.This thread started off about writing copy for staying in touch with customers and became about spam in general. So, yes - I am railing about spam in general.


...Some emails are definitely spam. Others are sent because you've established some kind of relationship with a company. The relationship might only have been making a purchase, but it's still a relationship...If it is UCE, it is spam - unsolicited commercial e-mail. That is the definition of spam and has been for the past 14 years that I have been on the web. If it is unsolicited and it is commercial, it is spam.


...None of us want to get spam. Email marketing is not spam though. Two different kinds of email.I cannot quite see how an e-mail about business, to business customers and resulting from a business transaction, can be called personal. They are as much commercial as the e-mail blast to 5 million collected addresses trying to sell something. Marketing is commercial by its very nature, e-mail marketing, if unsolicited, is UCE - unsolicited commercial e-mail. Only if it is solicited - requested - is it not spam.

Spider
12-31-2009, 03:32 PM
... I agree delete and move on is the only way to [get] over this - it's not worth spending much time worrying about.I am interested in it from two angles, as I have already expressed. (1) The time I have to waste because of the spam to a value of at least $10,000 per year, and (2) the counter-productive nature of it, from a business POV.

Incidentally, I believe the CAN/SPAM rules (or laws, if they are actually law) rule about unsolicited commercial e-mail. The problem is that CAN/SPAM actually legalizes spam by defining what is acceptable spam and what is unacceptable spam. Which is why we have so much of it now.

I remember when the introduction of CAN/SPAM was being debated. It was generally accepted by everyone I was in discussion with over it, that spam would increase as a result, and that is what has happened.

Sad, really. A perfectly wonderful business tool has been so abused as to be a mere shadow of the benefit it could have brought to business communication.

Patrysha
12-31-2009, 03:38 PM
I use a service for my list/newsletter communications, but those are strictly the double opt in you know what you're getting type mails. I only have one list that is not double opt in and that is for those who sign up for my newsletter through my manual forms (face to face, speaking engagements and live networking event type stuff).

They can unsubscribe at any time. Or if they are hesitant to do it the automated way they can hit reply and ask me to unsub them.

Only the sign up, delivery and unsubs are automated...if someone does respond to them (and I have had some great conversations with subscribers that way) by hitting reply it does come back to me (or more recently to one of my VA's) and I respond personally (or mostly personally with a form copy and paste if it's one of those frequently asked type things that I've already got a template for).

Now with former clients I will touch base with them and may use a form letter template to start with that I slightly customize and send from my personal account, but that's separate from my list type email...it's still commercial in nature in that I hope they remember a project they have that I can take on...but not in the same way as list mail.

I'm still working on the system though. It's an ongoing process.

Patrysha
12-31-2009, 03:46 PM
I am interested in it from two angles, as I have already expressed. (1) The time I have to waste because of the spam to a value of at least $10,000 per year, and (2) the counter-productive nature of it, from a business POV.

Where does the figure of $10,000 a year in lost productivity come from? I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around that. I find it fairly easy and routine to deal with spam and don't find it bothers me much - unless it' one of those ones where the subject line is very vague and generic and I think I kind of recognize the name...but that doesn't happen often enough for it to be really bothersome. Filtering into folders keeps me on track with email :-)

Spider
12-31-2009, 04:02 PM
Where does the figure of $10,000 a year in lost productivity come from? I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around that.... As stated above (or in another thread, if not above) I estimate that I spend an hour per day clearing out my e-mail of spam. If I value my time at $30/hour, that is $10,000 per year. Of course, if I value my time at a different amount, then the 365 hours will amount to a different value for the year - $60/hour will be $20,000's worth of wasted time per year, and so on.

What do you value your time at?

Patrysha
12-31-2009, 04:17 PM
I'd have to time the process to be sure but I would say it takes about 15 seconds a day dealing with spam (but I can scan the one folder really quickly...my natural reading speed is really high and at scanning speed it is super duper fast)...

I can waste that sneezing...

So I don't think it would be fair to put a dollar cost on it...

but if I were that's a minute every 4 days or 91.25 minutes a year...

A minute being worth $2.08 (at my highest hourly billable rate mind, not my actual hourly rate) that work out to $189.80 a year.

vangogh
01-03-2010, 11:42 PM
If it is UCE, it is spam - unsolicited commercial e-mail. That is the definition of spam and has been for the past 14 years that I have been on the web. If it is unsolicited and it is commercial, it is spam.

Actually that's not the definition of spam. There are other components like mass mailing involved and a lack of an unsubscribe link.

What you seem to be unwilling to acknowledge though is that you are agreeing to get some business email simply because you made a purchase. I completely agree with you that every company should use a double opt in before sending you email. Some don't and you making a purchase is an agreement to receive future email. If you don't want that email unsubscribe.

With the real spam where it's someone who's found your email online or bought an illegal list there isn't much you can do. But again that's not what this thread has been about.


Your ****** example is likely not coming from the owner of a company that you personally met and did business with.

So as long as I'm the owner of the company I can send you emails trying to get you to buy my product as long as I use Outlook or similar. I do think the comparison is a fair one. The product doesn't have to be ******. It could be anything. I just picked that as an example of an email most of us would consider spam.


You also made reference to a box being checked by default. I was clear in an earlier post that I'm very careful about leaving any boxes checked that would do this.

My bad on this. When I said checked by default I also meant those companies that don't give you a choice about getting the email, but let you know they'll be sending it as part of your purchase agreement. No real box to check, but you're getting email by default because you purchased something.

One more time I want to say I think all companies should use a double opt in. Regardless of whether or not you have a legal right to send marketing emails, they clearly aren't going to work on someone like Frederick. So why send him an email since all it will do is make him think negatively of your brand.

Spider
01-04-2010, 12:14 PM
Actually that's not the definition of spam. There are other components like mass mailing involved and a lack of an unsubscribe link....Obviously, we were moving in different circles back then. The people I was discussing this with in the late 1990s agreed that, while bulk mailing was a common feature of spam, it was not a defining condition. The one piece of spam a person receives is no more nor less annoying for the fact that a million other people receive a copy. Unsolicited commercial e-mail can be one or many to be unsolicted and commercial. It was always called UCE, not UBCE.

Even more telling, is the fact that back then, subscribing and unsubscribing were not involved in the discussion. I think, because once one subscribes, the e-mail is no longer unsolicited, and therefore, not spam. But that does require an actual, conscious subscription, not an implied or imposed subscription.

It is interesting to note (I thought it interesting, anyway) that the Monty Python sketch that gave the name to spam was first aired in 1970, a few years before modern e-mail was developed.


..One more time I want to say I think all companies should use a double opt in...Absolutely! To me, there is no other way.


...Regardless of whether or not you have a legal right to send marketing emails, they clearly aren't going to work on someone like Frederick. So why send him an email since all it will do is make him think negatively of your brand.And this is the whole point of my ranting. UCE is counterproductive in the long run. I'm not the only one who is opposed to it. If it wasn't so universally abhored, why are there countless anti-spam programs and why do all or most responsible ISPs have some sort of spam filtering in place? I have heard it said that 80% of internet traffic is e-mail and 80% of that is unwanted. What a waste of our computing facilities! This costs all of us money. If spam were to have been eliminated at the beginning, or not even begun, we would be achieving what we are achieving on one fifth of the computing power we are now using. Or, we would be achieving 500% more than we are with the computing power we now have. That's an awful lot of wasted computing power, however you look at it. And we are paying for it.

Paul McQuillan
01-05-2010, 11:01 AM
Sorry if I restate something that has already been said. I did not read
all the replies.

The most important component of an email is what? The subject line

People are inundated with dozens of emails everyday. Most do not want to
read them all, more so from a business.

It's hard to believe, but people will ignore email from a friend! So in order
to get our emails read the subject line needs to be compelling.

Even with a compelling subject line most will go unread (for those of
you using an auto-responder such as Aweber, you know this)

When I work with small businesses they usually falsely assume the
customer is excited to get the email. Rarely do they care even a little.

I agree the email should have a personal touch and sound like it's from
a friend, but I don't care how buddy-buddy we are, if they don't open
it we're screwed.

I would put 90% effort into the subject line and just let the rest flow
naturally and to the point.

dpdumas642
01-05-2010, 12:10 PM
I would put 90% effort into the subject line and just let the rest flow
naturally and to the point.

Thank you Paul for your advice. I never gave it much thought but you're definitely right about the subject line. Without a good subject line there is little chance that the email will ever get opened regardless of how great the content is.

BTT
05-24-2010, 11:51 AM
Here are some tips that have been helpful to me:
1. Make your copy narrow...don't type more than about 60 characters wide. It will be more easily read.
2. If you have a link you'd like for your audience to click, include it 3 times.
3. Use short, conversational paragraphs - usually no more than 2 sentences.
4. If you are sending "Text" emails, use some "text" art - here are some examples: ********** or ============== or ~~~~~~~~~ to go above and below the links. Or just be creative.
5. Your subject line MUST grab attention.

Good Luck,
Jeanne

greenoak
05-30-2010, 09:46 AM
i go for the main idea in the headline....then really good tempting pictures in the body..our last one was ....GARDEN PARTY THIS WEEKEND......
i try to sound cheery and friendly...
ANN.