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GoodPho~D
12-27-2009, 04:35 PM
So I'm writing a business plan to fund it. Some questions that came up was 1. How am I suppose to present the plan to somebody if my ideas aren't patent and my SM isn't trade marked? 2. How am I suppose to pay for the trade marks or patent if I don't have the funding to pay for it? I pay it out of my own pockets? if there is a better way could somebody please give me a little information on it!?

Business Attorney
12-27-2009, 09:06 PM
GoodPho~D, your problem is a common one. Most business ideas cannot be patented. Trademarks and copyrights give specific protection to particular types of intellectual property but they are generally of limited value in protecting your business concept. It is often a simple matter for someone else to achieve substantially the same business result with a different name and recreated materials that do not infringe the business' trademarks and copyrights.

So how do you protect your business idea? I recommend four things you can do (and you should do all of them, at least to the extent you can).

First, pre-qualify your potential investors. That is, only share the business plan with people who have at least a reasonable possibility to become investors in your business. There is no reason to put your idea in the hands of people who are not likely to invest with you.

Second, limit the number of people you tell. Even if you have 100 pre-qualified investors, don't give all of them the information up front. Choose the most likely investors. If those first recipients of the plan don't pan out, try a few more. Yes, that takes more time than letting everyone in on the secret immediately, but if you don't limit access to the information, don't expect to keep the idea secret for long.

Third, tell enough about the idea in the business plan to enable the investor to understand the plan and make an informed investment decision, but don't disclose all of the critical details of how your idea will be implemented.

Lastly, try to get a confidentiality or non-disclosure agreement (NDA) (http://www.illinoisbusinessattorney.com/articles/confidentiality-agreement.html) from every potential investor. Some will balk, sometimes for good reasons. You have to decide whether to let them in on the secret anyway. Also, keep in mind that an NDA is no substitute for keeping the idea close to your vest. The main value of an NDA is its deterrent effect. If a person goes ahead and violates the NDA, proving a violation may be difficult. And even if you have the facts in your favor, the cost of bringing a suit may be beyond your means.

As an aside, keep in mind that raising capital from investors is generally the sale of a security. To avoid violations of state and federal security laws when raising money using your business plan, you should comply with the private placement rules (http://www.illinoisbusinessattorney.com/securities_law.html) under Regulation D of the Securities and Exchange Act and similar state securities laws. If you are outside the United States and selling to investors outside the U.S. different rules apply.

Harold Mansfield
12-28-2009, 01:47 PM
2. How am I suppose to pay for the trade marks or patent if I don't have the funding to pay for it? I pay it out of my own pockets? if there is a better way could somebody please give me a little information on it!?

Just expound on this question...investors are a lot more receptive to your ideas if they see that you have spent as much of your own money as possible to get as far as you can without asking for money.

If I were considering investing in you and your business idea, the last thing I want to see on your plan is little expenses in the hundreds of dollars that you haven't tried to cover on your own. That shows me how well you believe and how dedicated you are to your own project.

I would only include in the plan things that you cannot cover without funding...employees, office space, manufacturing expenses, etc.

Things like a business license, DBA, Patent applications and generally anything that is under $1000, or even under $500..I would not include in your funding plan...I would find a way to pay for them myself to show that you have already started to assume risk with your own money.

JMO

GoodPho~D
12-29-2009, 03:29 PM
what I am trying to patent is a TCG ( trading card game ) and what I am trying to trade mark is its title. After reading your posts and thinking about it, its clear that I should pay it out of my own pocket. The thing was just that I don't have the money to do it right now and should go get a job or some other way to get that income but I hate working and is unemployed at the moment. Yes I am writing a plan for funding. It's not that I am not willing to risk my own money into it. Its just that I don't have the money for it. I know what the risk is for trying to build a business and I'm not just doing it for the big pay check. In the start of my business I only plan on taking a small amount of money just to put food on the table but the rest is going to go back into the business, every cent or if I have a job during the business I won't even take out 1 cent.

Thanks for the kind advices

Harold Mansfield
12-29-2009, 05:12 PM
what I am trying to patent is a TCG ( trading card game ) and what I am trying to trade mark is its title. After reading your posts and thinking about it, its clear that I should pay it out of my own pocket. The thing was just that I don't have the money to do it right now and should go get a job or some other way to get that income but I hate working and is unemployed at the moment...

This is not good outlook for someone who is looking for funding. Successful entrepreneurs have the will to succeed and will do anything possible to put their plan into action, and will do what ever job it takes to make money to get going, even if it means shoveling horse manure.

These are traits that investors look for.."How much are you willing to do ? How much do you believe in your idea?"

If you are not working hard to see your vision through, then why would someone else invest time and money that they have worked hard for?

Very few people,outside of talented programmers, and high tech engineers are able to secure the kind of funding that also pays their bills these days.

Many entrepreneurs and self employed people have jobs as they work to go out on their own.
Personally, I worked a job in 2008 that I hated just to make enough money, not just to eat, but to upgrade my computers, office equipment, and other things that I needed to go into business for myself.

You need to be at the point where you have gone as far as you can go with your own money...working 2 jobs if necessary, before anyone will consider you a viable risk.
If you are not willing to do that, then you are just dreaming.

GoodPho~D
12-29-2009, 07:04 PM
Thanks for the harsh but true words that I needed to get things rolling!

I was just looking for a easier way to get the patent and trademark. As far as how to raise capital, I truly believe I have the technical and art on how to raise it. I'm always looking for a better way on how to get things done! not necessarily the cheaper way just the smarter way. Like Robert T. Kiyosaki says "Most people can't invest because they are trying to use their own money."

From what I have come to know most people are not able to secure the funding becuase they have the technical skills but lack in the art skills or the genre that a person needs. The plan looks nice but the investor doesn't really trust the person. Another thing is that, what the person is presenting isn't what the market is looking for. What I believe is that most people fall in love with their invention or idea and they except who ever sees or hears about it will not see why people won't start flooding the market and snapping it off the wall. When in reality the investor doesn't really care. The investor cares more about how much money you can make with your idea or invention, even if its a crappy product.

I would have to say that it's about time I just join the rat race for the income to start the business. Personally I think getting 2 jobs is the worst idea there is! You would just be stuck with the W-2 income paying higher in taxes and be working harder. You wouldn't have any time to start your business!

Harold Mansfield
12-29-2009, 08:42 PM
Thanks for the harsh but true words that I needed to get things rolling!

I was just looking for a easier way to get the patent and trademark. As far as how to raise capital, I truly believe I have the technical and art on how to raise it. I'm always looking for a better way on how to get things done! not necessarily the cheaper way just the smarter way. Like Robert T. Kiyosaki says "Most people can't invest because they are trying to use their own money."

From what I have come to know most people are not able to secure the funding becuase they have the technical skills but lack in the art skills or the genre that a person needs. The plan looks nice but the investor doesn't really trust the person. Another thing is that, what the person is presenting isn't what the market is looking for. What I believe is that most people fall in love with their invention or idea and they except who ever sees or hears about it will not see why people won't start flooding the market and snapping it off the wall. When in reality the investor doesn't really care. The investor cares more about how much money you can make with your idea or invention, even if its a crappy product.

I would have to say that it's about time I just join the rat race for the income to start the business. Personally I think getting 2 jobs is the worst idea there is! You would just be stuck with the W-2 income paying higher in taxes and be working harder. You wouldn't have any time to start your business!

The best words I can give you is, "If you don't do it yourself, don't expect it to get done the right way".
There are many other ways to say that, but it all boils down to..it's your project, your vision, and your business. No one is going to care about it like you do, therefore, you are the only person that can realize it's potential.

Basically if you aren't working your ass off to get it done, no one is going to give you a dime.

Patrysha
12-29-2009, 08:49 PM
Well, if it is just a Trading Game, is it something that you could start small and expand upon. My sons are really into trading card games (Magic, Yu Gi Oh & Pokemon mostly) and so I've hung around the card shop a fair bit and they are one of my marketing clients...so that is where I am coming from...as a mom, a marketer and a tightwad ;-)

You should be able to get more than enough through a small business loan - either through an organization or a bank - to support the card needs of one local shop and then work with them to expand the word to the online world.

You can get the loan (based on a complete marketing plan that includes the details of all this laid out for them to see the potential) then apply for the trademarks and whatever else you need and then move into production.

It really can't be too difficult to make a prototype set in a small quantity...can it? Get out there and start proving it in your local marketplace so you can get all your details hashed out and be ready to hit the streets by the time the Trademark is filed.

Dan Furman
12-29-2009, 11:37 PM
but I hate working

Then what you want is a job, not a business. Trust me.

GoodPho~D
12-30-2009, 01:53 AM
The best words I can give you is, "If you don't do it yourself, don't expect it to get done the right way".
There are many other ways to say that, but it all boils down to..it's your project, your vision, and your business. No one is going to care about it like you do, therefore, you are the only person that can realize it's potential.

Basically if you aren't working your ass off to get it done, no one is going to give you a dime.

Yeah I see where your coming from with how I have to lead this project but I have to disagree with you saying that I should only be the person who sees the vision and project! I say this becuase I believe that building a business is a team sport and if your trying to compete against the market with people who do have a team, your gonna be in trouble.

GoodPho~D
12-30-2009, 01:59 AM
Then what you want is a job, not a business. Trust me.

That's the reason why I am starting a business! becuase I hate having a job! I hate people bossing me around telling me how I should live my life! I want my dignity back from this world! Owning a business should give you more free time not a job.

Patrysha
12-30-2009, 02:31 AM
Owning a business should give you more free time not a job.

Um nope...it doesn't work that way. At least not without at least a few years of working your tail off...and if you've done well you might be at a level that you can slack off if you choose to.

Yeah, no boss is telling you what do - you've got a new boss now called your market. And that boss doesn't tell you what to do but expects you to deliver what they want the way they want it (even if they can't articulate that they want it or how) and now you've got to regulate your own schedule and manage every detail yourself. Oh you don't have to do it all, getting a team in place is a fine goal...

But you've already stated you have no money and you don't really want to work hard...so all you're bringing to the table is an idea. But ideas are nothing without the ability and determination to bring them to life...if there's nothing behind making it real, wishing isn't going to make it happen.

GoodPho~D
12-30-2009, 03:18 AM
Um nope...it doesn't work that way. At least not without at least a few years of working your tail off...and if you've done well you might be at a level that you can slack off if you choose to.

Yeah, no boss is telling you what do - you've got a new boss now called your market. And that boss doesn't tell you what to do but expects you to deliver what they want the way they want it (even if they can't articulate that they want it or how) and now you've got to regulate your own schedule and manage every detail yourself. Oh you don't have to do it all, getting a team in place is a fine goal...

But you've already stated you have no money and you don't really want to work hard...so all you're bringing to the table is an idea. But ideas are nothing without the ability and determination to bring them to life...if there's nothing behind making it real, wishing isn't going to make it happen.

sure you have to put in some work in the beginning to build the system! but if your saying that building a business so you can take care of it! have a good time! the market is not my boss! how can it? If you don't have a mission that you really want to have succeeded bringing it to the market than why are you in business anyways? for the money? well I don't think its a great enough desire anyways for you to succeed in the first place and unlike people like your bosses and coworkers telling you how much you can get paid, when you come to work, when you can eat lunch! gosh damn the market will love you for giving them something and you will enjoy every moment of it if what your doing is fulfilling your mission. I never said that I don't want to work hard! its just that I want to work hard on the stuff that does need to be worked hard on! I've been in the development and design for my game over 2 years now. Researching, reading, listening to audio tapes, talking to people, going to seminars. You call that not working hard? I'm just looking for the smarter way! and not willing to just feel comfortable.
Yes I don't have any money at the moment and only a few people on my team and an idea. But I am willing to learn from my mistakes and taking the time to really change my thoughts of an employee or self employee and really start to think like a Business owner. I'm learning to face my fears and take more risk! Making that change takes time and not over night!

Harold Mansfield
12-30-2009, 03:50 AM
Just to throw some familiar success stories out there:

You Tube took 10 years and 200 million in investors, 100's of engineers and employees, while operating at a loss the whole time before someone finally saw the potential and bought them out.

Donald Trump started with money and 20 years later still went bankrupt before he built up against and became almost solvent.

Sam Walton opened multiple stores for the first time in the 1960's..it took 25 more years before Walmart became the global entity that it is now.

The point is, working for yourself is 100x's harder and more work than working for others. It never stops and it takes years to get to where you want to be. You don't have 1 boss, you have multiple bosses, suppliers, customers, partnerships, employees, the IRS, and so many more.
You don't have the luxury of just working on the stuff that you like..you have to be the CEO, Accountant, Marketing, Human Resources, Design, Legal, IT, Web Master, SEO, Sales, Secretary, and everything else that needs to be done. Do you really think that you will have enough money to just hire people when ever you need something done ? It's possible if you get lucky but if you spend money like that, instead of wearing multiple hats..you will go broke real quick.


It's not like the movies where you somehow come up with an angel investor, hire a staff and sit in an office delegating tasks with your feet on the desk. That's the TV version of starting your own business. In real life, it's nothing like that. It's a job. A real job with no safety net. No benefits. No Salary...and statistics say that most business start ups will fail in the first 2 years.

I'm not trying to discourage you..just the opposite. If you can invest everything you have, work a full or part time job just to be able to buy the essential computers and office supplies, and go into it eyes wide open knowing full well that the odds are stacked against you, you will have to learn and study business fields that you know nothing about, and knowing that it will require more hours of work than any normal job working for someone...including holidays and weekends. If you know all of this and are OK with it and still have a desire to try and give it all you have even if you never get an investor and have to finance everything on your own hard work and sweat which may take twice as long to get it going.

If that is the real life vision that you have of starting your own business..then you may have a shot and you should go for it.

If you envision anything less, you need to re-evaluate the situation.

GoodPho~D
12-30-2009, 05:19 AM
Just to throw some familiar success stories out there:

You Tube took 10 years and 200 million in investors, 100's of engineers and employees, while operating at a loss the whole time before someone finally saw the potential and bought them out.

Donald Trump started with money and 20 years later still went bankrupt before he built up against and became almost solvent.

Sam Walton opened multiple stores for the first time in the 1960's..it took 25 more years before Walmart became the global entity that it is now.

The point is, working for yourself is 100x's harder and more work than working for others. It never stops and it takes years to get to where you want to be. You don't have 1 boss, you have multiple bosses, suppliers, customers, partnerships, employees, the IRS, and so many more.
You don't have the luxury of just working on the stuff that you like..you have to be the CEO, Accountant, Marketing, Human Resources, Design, Legal, IT, Web Master, SEO, Sales, Secretary, and everything else that needs to be done. Do you really think that you will have enough money to just hire people when ever you need something done ? It's possible if you get lucky but if you spend money like that, instead of wearing multiple hats..you will go broke real quick.


It's not like the movies where you somehow come up with an angel investor, hire a staff and sit in an office delegating tasks with your feet on the desk. That's the TV version of starting your own business. In real life, it's nothing like that. It's a job. A real job with no safety net. No benefits. No Salary...and statistics say that most business start ups will fail in the first 2 years.

I believe that one of the reason why so many businesses fail in first 5 years is that. Most often people try to start a business but the business only becomes a job for them. They get so much stress from loads and loads of work. If they stop working than their income stops. So it really never lets up on them. Not to mention all the knowledge you have to obtain in every part of a business! Legal, tax, Intellectual property, sales, development, communications etc etc I mean you can only know so much of 1 thing and all of that is always changing. So I do think its better to have a team. Obtaining the team does seem hard and almost impossible. Raising it is the question that if you can do it. Last year it was estimated that there was over 50 billion dollars was sitting in investors vault waiting to be invested. When the internet just came out and you knew how to write codes was when their were endless stories of instant billionaires overnight. It seems like the hardest thing but in the long run its the easiest! It is a high risk tho! you could be in dept with over a million or even millions of dollars but it is a risk I am willing to take it.

We are in the information age and I believe that with the internet and all this that it doesn't really take much to start a very successful business. Now I'm not saying that you can just procrastinate and success will just fall on your lap. But that its easier and easier to get wealthy. Bill gates bought part of his company for 50 or was it 20,000. License it to IMB and became rich. Look at all the little .com companies like yahoo and myspace. They started them when they were in college at the age of early 20s and are now billionaires in their late 20's! Back in the days around Henry ford, John D. Rockefeller and such you needed land and raw materials and such to get wealthy but now and days you just need a standard computer, internet and some knowledge and you could make it.

GoodPho~D
12-30-2009, 05:30 AM
I understand! Everything that I hear from other people points of view is an insight to a better understanding. As hard as it may seem to me. Sometimes its hard for me or anyone to hear the truth be told to them. Its how you handle what they say to you and act upon it. I don't clam to know it all but I would have to say that I am a third party that has learned a lot from people who are very successful. One of the reasons why I am in these forums is to learn. So don't take it easy on me :p

Harold Mansfield
12-30-2009, 06:08 AM
We are in the information age and I believe that with the internet and all this that it doesn't really take much to start a very successful business. Now I'm not saying that you can just procrastinate and success will just fall on your lap. But that its easier and easier to get wealthy. Bill gates bought part of his company for 50 or was it 20,000. License it to IMB and became rich. Look at all the little .com companies like yahoo and myspace. They started them when they were in college at the age of early 20s and are now billionaires in their late 20's! Back in the days around Henry ford, John D. Rockefeller and such you needed land and raw materials and such to get wealthy but now and days you just need a standard computer, internet and some knowledge and you could make it.
Oh man are you 15 years behind on the folklore.
There were far more failures in the 90's .com boom..actually most of the start ups with $100 million investors went belly up.
There were literally hundreds of them if not thousands. They all had educated, talented people, programmers, engineers, masters degrees and great ideas and a lot of money behind them..and most of them failed.

Silicon Valley had a waiting list for office space..landlords were asking to see business plans to even rent to you...it was crazy. But it was a boom. The value and possibilities were perceived, but not actually realized.

Most of the companies that you named (outside of MS) didn't even make a profit for years..they just happen to have enough investment to stay afloat until they could realize at least some potential.

The internet is not easy. It's actually harder than any other kind of traditional business. The days that you are speaking of were 15 years ago..that ship sailed a long time ago.

I have to disagree with pretty much most of what you said in that paragraph and its spoken like one who hasn't actually put a business online and has only read snippets of the success stories...but you don't know the details of how those companies became successful and how much money, time and how many teams of highly educated marketers and engineers it took to get there.

Everyone talks of the 2 guys in a garage that started a successful company, but what they don't talk about is the 100's of millions it took to develop it. The lawsuits. The competition to hire the best talent. The years of 100 hr work weeks. And the failures before they found a successful formula that actually worked.

When you actually put a business online, you will remember that I said this, "Developing a successful online business is the hardest thing that you will ever do in your life. "

There are so many things that go into it that you haven't even begun to understand or else you wouldn't make those statements.

If it were as easy as a "Standard computer, the internet and some knowledge" don't you think everyone would be rich by now ?

Dan Furman
12-30-2009, 01:23 PM
That's the reason why I am starting a business! becuase I hate having a job! I hate people bossing me around telling me how I should live my life! I want my dignity back from this world! Owning a business should give you more free time not a job.

I understand what you are saying.

But trust me on this: owning a business is infinitely harder.

Yes, I do what I want, when I want - if I feel like going to the mall at 2:30 and shop, I can. If I feel like posting to a fantasy football forum (or a business forum) in the middle of the day, nobody stops me. If I want to do my work at 11pm, that's fine.

But it's NOT easier. It's astonishingly hard, in fact. The self-discipline required is substantial.

Sometimes, I wish life was as simple as 9-5, M-F (or whatever)

Dan Furman
12-30-2009, 01:41 PM
I understand! Everything that I hear from other people points of view is an insight to a better understanding. As hard as it may seem to me. Sometimes its hard for me or anyone to hear the truth be told to them. Its how you handle what they say to you and act upon it. I don't clam to know it all but I would have to say that I am a third party that has learned a lot from people who are very successful. One of the reasons why I am in these forums is to learn. So don't take it easy on me :p

One thing I am sort of hearing from you is akin to the old "the guy who invented the pet rock" line of thinking - you know, have an idea, float it "out there" some, someone invests, huge hit, and retirement at 28.

You mention Bill Gates and the Yahoo guys... Bill Gates was writing code in college when others were studying. He dropped out of friggen Harvard to start a dinky computer company. That's serious balls. There was a passion there that didn't have "billions" as an end goal. The story starts waaaaay before licensing DOS to IBM. And part of the story was a lot of work and burning the midnight oil. And several small time products, working for clients, etc etc.

I don't mean to dismiss you. In fact, I appreciate your enthusiasm, etc - you sound like me twenty years ago.

You mention you have no money - do you have credit cards? A home? A bank account? A 401k? Just how much of a risk are you really willing to take?

Patrysha
12-30-2009, 01:50 PM
the market is not my boss! how can it? If you don't have a mission that you really want to have succeeded bringing it to the market than why are you in business anyways? for the money?

How is the market your boss? Because sunshine, the marketplace doesn't give a rat's behind about your mission or mine. They don't care if you've thrown $10 at a project or your last dime and dying breath. All they care about is how that product or service serves them.

It's not about having the best -- being the best -- it's about having the market perceive you as being the best.

Money is just part of the equation...and yes, I am in my business for the money same as if I had a job...because I like to eat (among other things and most of them cost money, that's how our economy runs - I'd work for buttons and bananas if those could be used for legal tender). There's nothing wrong with profit...

But there is no profit if there is no market.

That's how the market is your boss. Because it's not just about you and what you want your busines to be...it's how well you fit that image into the life of your prospects and customers.

Harold Mansfield
12-30-2009, 01:59 PM
You mention you have no money - do you have credit cards? A home? A bank account? A 401k? Just how much of a risk are you really willing to take?

And this is what it really comes down to. Are you willing to risk everything and sacrifice all of your time and money to get it off of the ground?
Starting a business is going to be littered with road blocks that you have to willing to jump over, find a way around, or look for another route all together.

I believe everyone that is willing to learn and make the sacrifice can be successful..maybe not always the way that you first envision, but if you really want it, you can do it.

Most successful business people have a number of failures, and set backs before they hit the right formula. They don't give up when the going gets tough, or when their budget only allows for a can of Ravioli for dinner.

A lot of ideas sound good on paper, but when it gets down to the "nitty gritty" and the romance is gone, can you still forge ahead ?

These are the traits that the investor looks for. Will you do everything within your power and take care of business to make my money work ?

GoodPho~D
12-30-2009, 02:01 PM
Oh man are you 15 years behind on the folklore.
There were far more failures in the 90's .com boom..actually most of the start ups with $100 million investors went belly up.
There were literally hundreds of them if not thousands. They all had educated, talented people, programmers, engineers, masters degrees and great ideas and a lot of money behind them..and most of them failed.

Silicon Valley had a waiting list for office space..landlords were asking to see business plans to even rent to you...it was crazy. But it was a boom. The value and possibilities were perceived, but not actually realized.

Most of the companies that you named (outside of MS) didn't even make a profit for years..they just happen to have enough investment to stay afloat until they could realize at least some potential.

The internet is not easy. It's actually harder than any other kind of traditional business. The days that you are speaking of were 15 years ago..that ship sailed a long time ago.

I have to disagree with pretty much most of what you said in that paragraph and its spoken like one who hasn't actually put a business online and has only read snippets of the success stories...but you don't know the details of how those companies became successful and how much money, time and how many teams of highly educated marketers and engineers it took to get there.

Everyone talks of the 2 guys in a garage that started a successful company, but what they don't talk about is the 100's of millions it took to develop it. The lawsuits. The competition to hire the best talent. The years of 100 hr work weeks. And the failures before they found a successful formula that actually worked.

When you actually put a business online, you will remember that I said this, "Developing a successful online business is the hardest thing that you will ever do in your life. "

There are so many things that go into it that you haven't even begun to understand or else you wouldn't make those statements.

If it were as easy as a "Standard computer, the internet and some knowledge" don't you think everyone would be rich by now ?

Yes it is true that most of them lost it all! becuase even if the plan was crappy it was what the market was looking for. As long as you had .com after your plan it was funded! and yes it is true those company that I named didn't make much till later but that's how it works! Every business should be seen as a at least 4 years plan. A plan to build a business not a plan to get rich quick. Yeah I don't know all the details about those companies. I don't know what they were thinking or what their mission was but I do know what it took. It took desire, dedication, risk and knowledge. I have learned from people who have made millions from little to nothing.
That is exactly what I'm saying is that if you want to build a business than its a team sport. Just look at what you said it took a lot of people and the risk in order to just make it. It wasn't wearing multiple hats trying to do everything yourself. What the business owner does is bring everybody in the team together. Make them all see the vision and the goals. The business owner doesn't just hire people and say this is what I want, good luck.
From what I have learned from millionaires personally. It was hard work to build that business BUT it wasn't that hard as well. By how you state what a business is sounds like your saying a business is a job. Which it really isn't! Unless your willing to work till you can't no more but wait if you stop working than so does your income. A business is a system of systems. Sure it may seem easier to just do it all yourself, that seems the easiest at the start but in long run is the hardest! The more successful you become the harder you gotta work. If you build a business and I mean a real business it seems the hardest.... at the start but in the long run it's the easiest.
You said "If it were as easy as a "Standard computer, the internet and some knowledge" don't you think everyone would be rich by now?" I was just stating that with just standard stuff and some ambition you could make it. It doesn't mean that with those stuff you instantly become rich. Personally I think most people never make it becuase in their mind they already were programed to think a certain way and they hold onto those thoughts or feelings. Most families are still stuck in the industrial age thinking about getting a safe job with nice benefits. Everybody chooses to see the world in a different way. Its a very true topic. A good book is "Cash Flow Quadrant". It talks about the four kinds of people and how they see the world through their eyes. The Employees, Self employees, Business owners and Investors. If you read this book, I guarantee you that you will find out who you really are. Its about changing your core values. Changing from a Employee or Self employee to a business owner or investor takes time and doesn't happen over night.

GoodPho~D
12-30-2009, 02:10 PM
One thing I am sort of hearing from you is akin to the old "the guy who invented the pet rock" line of thinking - you know, have an idea, float it "out there" some, someone invests, huge hit, and retirement at 28.

You mention Bill Gates and the Yahoo guys... Bill Gates was writing code in college when others were studying. He dropped out of friggen Harvard to start a dinky computer company. That's serious balls. There was a passion there that didn't have "billions" as an end goal. The story starts waaaaay before licensing DOS to IBM. And part of the story was a lot of work and burning the midnight oil. And several small time products, working for clients, etc etc.

I don't mean to dismiss you. In fact, I appreciate your enthusiasm, etc - you sound like me twenty years ago.

You mention you have no money - do you have credit cards? A home? A bank account? A 401k? Just how much of a risk are you really willing to take?

Yes Bill did start before he bought DOS. Apple was making more money but after bill licensed it to IBM is when they got big. Don't know what he was thinking but I knew it was fun and he had passion for it.
How much am I willing to risk! Everything! I live in a house yes I have a bank account. I don't have a 401K. Dumbest thing there is in my opinion.

GoodPho~D
12-30-2009, 02:21 PM
How is the market your boss? Because sunshine, the marketplace doesn't give a rat's behind about your mission or mine. They don't care if you've thrown $10 at a project or your last dime and dying breath. All they care about is how that product or service serves them.

It's not about having the best -- being the best -- it's about having the market perceive you as being the best.

Money is just part of the equation...and yes, I am in my business for the money same as if I had a job...because I like to eat (among other things and most of them cost money, that's how our economy runs - I'd work for buttons and bananas if those could be used for legal tender). There's nothing wrong with profit...

But there is no profit if there is no market.

That's how the market is your boss. Because it's not just about you and what you want your busines to be...it's how well you fit that image into the life of your prospects and customers.

They don't care about your mission and you shouldn't care. They don't need to care about your mission. Your mission is about them. If they were your boss they would be telling you to do things that you don't like to do. Your mission includes them! and giving them what they want from your business should be fulfilling your mission not be giving you a headache. If that's the case than why are you in that business anyways? for money? but it gives you headaches? why not find something that will make you happy when you give somebody what they want the way they want it and it makes you happy becuase its fulfilling your mission. If you wanna do it just for the money *shakes hand* best wishes

Patrysha
12-30-2009, 02:50 PM
They don't care about your mission and you shouldn't care. They don't need to care about your mission. Your mission is about them. If they were your boss they would be telling you to do things that you don't like to do. Your mission includes them! and giving them what they want from your business should be fulfilling your mission not be giving you a headache. If that's the case than why are you in that business anyways? for money? but it gives you headaches? why not find something that will make you happy when you give somebody what they want the way they want it and it makes you happy becuase its fulfilling your mission. If you wanna do it just for the money *shakes hand* best wishes

Excuse me? Who the heck gave you the idea that I do what I do (and am darn good at, for the record) for "just for the money"? What makes you think I have not found something that brings me great joy and fulfillment?

You certainly do not know me or the work I have done or the things I have accomplished. So it's a bit rich for you to come on for help in getting investors to get your business started and then be telling us all that you've got it all figured out...really? How many successful businesses have you created?

There is no such thing as a life without headaches and challenges.

Bosses don't just tell you to do things you don't want to do. That's a very narrow view of the leadership role, don't you think? Bosses can indeed guide you, inspire you and provide you with the tools you need to support your role within the organization. When you are an employer are you going to run around telling people to do things they don't want to do just for fun? There's usually a reason behind the tasks and duties assigned...it's not just random I want to make your life miserable stuff (for the most part, of course, there are jerks outs there who are like that, but for them most part bosses are just people trying to get the job done for their market)

What I mean by the market being your boss is that the market becomes an entity that you are responsible for catering to and pleasing. If the market is crazy about purple doo-dads and you only have blue ones - you have a problem to solve.

GoodPho~D
12-30-2009, 03:10 PM
Excuse me? Who the heck gave you the idea that I do what I do (and am darn good at, for the record) for "just for the money"? What makes you think I have not found something that brings me great joy and fulfillment?

You certainly do not know me or the work I have done or the things I have accomplished. So it's a bit rich for you to come on for help in getting investors to get your business started and then be telling us all that you've got it all figured out...really? How many successful businesses have you created?

There is no such thing as a life without headaches and challenges.

Bosses don't just tell you to do things you don't want to do. That's a very narrow view of the leadership role, don't you think? Bosses can indeed guide you, inspire you and provide you with the tools you need to support your role within the organization. When you are an employer are you going to run around telling people to do things they don't want to do just for fun? There's usually a reason behind the tasks and duties assigned...it's not just random I want to make your life miserable stuff (for the most part, of course, there are jerks outs there who are like that, but for them most part bosses are just people trying to get the job done for their market)

What I mean by the market being your boss is that the market becomes an entity that you are responsible for catering to and pleasing. If the market is crazy about purple doo-dads and you only have blue ones - you have a problem to solve.

Don't get mad! :D I was asking a question not telling you how you are! I don't claim to know it all. I'm just telling you what I have learn from people who have build successful companies. All I'm saying is if you don't enjoy doing a segment in a business find somebody who does enjoy it.

Harold Mansfield
12-30-2009, 03:14 PM
That is exactly what I'm saying is that if you want to build a business than its a team sport. Just look at what you said it took a lot of people and the risk in order to just make it. It wasn't wearing multiple hats trying to do everything yourself. What the business owner does is bring everybody in the team together. Make them all see the vision and the goals. The business owner doesn't just hire people and say this is what I want, good luck.


Very true..if you have enough money to pay a team. If not, you will need to wear multiple hats. There is no way around it.


I'm just telling you what I have learn from people who have build successful companies. All I'm saying is if you don't enjoy doing a segment in a business find somebody who does enjoy it.

Your logic seems to be based on having a large budget for payroll. What if you don't have that ?
What if you can't afford to hire someone ?
What if you can't afford to offer a competitive salary to attract anyone good ? Are you going to waste the money you do have to hire someone who isn't necessarily the best?
What do you do then ?

Are you going to take your last $40k to hire a secretary for a year, or are you going to spend that on development and answer your own phone? (will you even have $40k)
Before you make any money, you can't just hire people to do the tasks that you don't feel like doing...you will just be bleeding money...assuming you have any left from all the other employees you have hired.

It's easy to learn from people who are successful after years of hard work, but you will get a lot more insight from people who have failed. I never looked much at how other people make it because everyone has different circumstances...and no one is ever truly honest about how much funding they had...ask them and they all pulled themselves up by their own boot straps with an old computer and an abacus.
...I look more at "How not to fail" because that's universal.

If you can, get your hands on some back issues of Fast Company. In the early days of Fast Company, it was thick with articles and flashy advertisements of start up companies and all of their vision, and how they were going to take over the world. Towards the end of the 90's and early 2000, it was thick with articles of some of those very same companies telling what happened and why they failed. A lot of it was hiring people that they didn't need, and "living the life" before they ever made any money. Many were just bad ideas that had nothing going for them other than ".com" in the name.
ShopAmerica.com and Beanz.com come to mind.

ShopAmerica.com had a good year, but went down the tubes when they couldn't deliver products before Christmas..it was the beginning of the end and they spent a lot of money on advertisement..and then it was over.

Beanz was just a dumb idea, (it was sort of a cash back program for shopping certain retailers) but back then everything with a ".com" was thought to be the second coming of economics.

Some even with millions in investors, still ended up millions in debt.

I remember when engineers were jumping ship every 6 months because some new company was offering $10k more in salary and a company BMW..mind you..none of these companies were making any money at the time.
Very insightful.

If you able to come up with that kind of money where you can hire a "Team", I say go for it. Unfortunately, That is not today's reality. Today's start ups are trim, lean, aggressive, efficient and their owners wear multiple hats.

GoodPho~D
12-30-2009, 08:37 PM
Very true..if you have enough money to pay a team. If not, you will need to wear multiple hats. There is no way around it.



Your logic seems to be based on having a large budget for payroll. What if you don't have that ?
What if you can't afford to hire someone ?
What if you can't afford to offer a competitive salary to attract anyone good ? Are you going to waste the money you do have to hire someone who isn't necessarily the best?
What do you do then ?

Are you going to take your last $40k to hire a secretary for a year, or are you going to spend that on development and answer your own phone? (will you even have $40k)
Before you make any money, you can't just hire people to do the tasks that you don't feel like doing...you will just be bleeding money...assuming you have any left from all the other employees you have hired.

It's easy to learn from people who are successful after years of hard work, but you will get a lot more insight from people who have failed. I never looked much at how other people make it because everyone has different circumstances...and no one is ever truly honest about how much funding they had...ask them and they all pulled themselves up by their own boot straps with an old computer and an abacus.
...I look more at "How not to fail" because that's universal.

If you can, get your hands on some back issues of Fast Company. In the early days of Fast Company, it was thick with articles and flashy advertisements of start up companies and all of their vision, and how they were going to take over the world. Towards the end of the 90's and early 2000, it was thick with articles of some of those very same companies telling what happened and why they failed. A lot of it was hiring people that they didn't need, and "living the life" before they ever made any money. Many were just bad ideas that had nothing going for them other than ".com" in the name.
ShopAmerica.com and Beanz.com come to mind.

ShopAmerica.com had a good year, but went down the tubes when they couldn't deliver products before Christmas..it was the beginning of the end and they spent a lot of money on advertisement..and then it was over.

Beanz was just a dumb idea, (it was sort of a cash back program for shopping certain retailers) but back then everything with a ".com" was thought to be the second coming of economics.

Some even with millions in investors, still ended up millions in debt.

I remember when engineers were jumping ship every 6 months because some new company was offering $10k more in salary and a company BMW..mind you..none of these companies were making any money at the time.
Very insightful.

If you able to come up with that kind of money where you can hire a "Team", I say go for it. Unfortunately, That is not today's reality. Today's start ups are trim, lean, aggressive, efficient and their owners wear multiple hats.

Really it just comes down to.. A - Are you willing to step out of your day to day job and take a high risk. B - Do you really have what it takes to make it/ just how good are you and C - are you getting the right kind of knowledge?
Most of all the .com companies failed becuase even if the plan wasn't so great it was what the investors were looking for. I know this becuase one of my friends struck oil and was building a oil company but when he went out and try to raise money to expand all he got from investors was "does it have .com after it" his company was growing with or with out capital. It had cash flow but it wasn't what the market was looking for so he didn't even get any money. Later tho he did raise the money. As hard as it is to say to me I look forward to failing! It is only through failing that you can learn. Not that I like failing but its apart of life and you only learn if you know how to react and learn from your failures. Its not a good or bad thing its apart of the game. I know people who were millions in debt and dug out of it. They tell me that it was the worst yet the best thing that happen to them.

Dan Furman
12-31-2009, 12:10 AM
By how you state what a business is sounds like your saying a business is a job. Which it really isn't! Unless your willing to work till you can't no more but wait if you stop working than so does your income. A business is a system of systems.

In all seriousness, how much money have you made in business during your lifetime?

Is it even five figures?

GoodPho~D
12-31-2009, 01:02 PM
In all seriousness, how much money have you made in business during your lifetime?

Is it even five figures?

That is off topic here but if you really want to know than its 0. Haven't started to yet know. I do know however that if I'm just doing it for five figures, why even start.
Don't get mad about it. Take what I say into consideration. Be open minded even if you don't believe what I say is true. How you react to other people's opinion creates who you are.

Patrysha
12-31-2009, 01:49 PM
Don't get mad about it. Take what I say into consideration. Be open minded even if you don't believe what I say is true. How you react to other people's opinion creates who you are.

You do realize it's not anger, but frustration. You're throwing darts without ever having hit a target or even having played the game. Everyone who has responded here has exceeded your efforts, and are just trying to help with knowledge born of actual experience not theories picked up through millionaire mentors alone.

It's not that we are closed and not taking your words into consideration, it's just that they don't hold much weight because you have not demonstrated their validity in any practical way.

How does a reaction to the opinion of others define who we are? I really don't understand that statement. It would be foolhardy to accept statements willy-nilly without considering the source.

GoodPho~D
12-31-2009, 02:35 PM
You do realize it's not anger, but frustration. You're throwing darts without ever having hit a target or even having played the game. Everyone who has responded here has exceeded your efforts, and are just trying to help with knowledge born of actual experience not theories picked up through millionaire mentors alone.

It's not that we are closed and not taking your words into consideration, it's just that they don't hold much weight because you have not demonstrated their validity in any practical way.

How does a reaction to the opinion of others define who we are? I really don't understand that statement. It would be foolhardy to accept statements willy-nilly without considering the source.

I understand were everybody is coming from. I wouldn't want to agree or try to understand things from somebody who hasn't made it them self. I'm just trying to teach you guys what I was told from people who has made it from nothing to something. If your happy with what you are doing and enjoy working for the rest of your life? Have a good life! In and all I must have joined the wrong forums. "small" business is not something I intend on doing. Sure you have to start somewhere but if your too scared to think and go big than its fine with me. Maybe its best that you stay were you are. Nobody does it better than you can right? RIGHT!? I just hope everybody the best and to keep on learning. I'm not gonna try to teach pigs how to fly. It annoys them and its a waste of my time. I'll be back to see your replies and I'm gonna leave these forums. Thanks to all who has given me the hard but true things about me.

God bless

Dan Furman
12-31-2009, 02:41 PM
That is off topic here but if you really want to know than its 0. Haven't started to yet know. I do know however that if I'm just doing it for five figures, why even start.
Don't get mad about it. Take what I say into consideration. Be open minded even if you don't believe what I say is true. How you react to other people's opinion creates who you are.

But here's my point - you are absolutely convinced what a business is, what it isn't, and what it takes to run one and succeed.

But, like I guessed, it's all talk. All of it.

And I have to disagree on the "how you react" thing. Because, in my mind, what you DO creates who you are.

I'm not mad at all. Like I said, I like your enthusiasm. I'm simply trying to get across to you that business isn't as easy as it seems from the cheap seats.

Dan Furman
12-31-2009, 02:51 PM
I'm just trying to teach you guys what I was told from people who has made it from nothing to something.

See, this is where you are missing the point. Many of us here DO run our own businesses - rather successfully, too. We HAVE made it from nothing to something.

Not that I think I can't learn anything from someone like you - that would be foolish and closed minded of me. I can learn something from anyone. But I do think you are a bit presumptuous in thinking you definitively know all the answers over people who are right now creating their own income. Especially when you haven't run as much as a lemonade stand.

Patrysha
12-31-2009, 03:19 PM
I'm just trying to teach you guys what I was told from people who has made it from nothing to something. If your happy with what you are doing and enjoy working for the rest of your life? Have a good life!

You are assuming that the people here have not started with nothing and turned it into something. You assume that where we are right now reflects where we are going.
You assume we need teaching, that we don't have our own millionaire mentors. You assume we're putting more time & work into our businesses than we want to.

Sheesh! Arrogant, much?


In and all I must have joined the wrong forums. "small" business is not something I intend on doing.

Well, if you were accurate in your representation of what you have at the moment, barring a miracle or some really rich relative dying and leaving you their estate - you are likely going to have to start small.

Just like Paul Mitchell starting out of the back of a car with less than $500 worth of stock in 1980 (Sure it's a $900 million dollar a year business, but it didn't start that way)...just like almost any other big business triggered by the vision of a capable and determined leader.


Sure you have to start somewhere but if your too scared to think and go big than its fine with me.

What kind of drugs are you smoking that makes you any judge of how anyone on the forum is thinking? There hasn't been any part of this thread that could be construed as any "too scared to think big" thinking going on.


God Bless

And to you too, wherever your journey takes you.

Harold Mansfield
01-01-2010, 05:34 PM
I understand were everybody is coming from. I wouldn't want to agree or try to understand things from somebody who hasn't made it them self. I'm just trying to teach you guys what I was told from people who has made it from nothing to something. If your happy with what you are doing and enjoy working for the rest of your life? Have a good life! In and all I must have joined the wrong forums. "small" business is not something I intend on doing. Sure you have to start somewhere but if your too scared to think and go big than its fine with me. Maybe its best that you stay were you are. Nobody does it better than you can right? RIGHT!? I just hope everybody the best and to keep on learning. I'm not gonna try to teach pigs how to fly. It annoys them and its a waste of my time. I'll be back to see your replies and I'm gonna leave these forums. Thanks to all who has given me the hard but true things about me.

God bless
It's a shame that you feel that you are in the wrong forum. Maybe you would be more comfortable on a forum where people just blow smoke up your butt and cheer every word, but that is not the reality of being in business for yourself...at least not starting a business from scratch.

Most of us are in business for ourselves, so we aren't guessing at giving you advice, we are telling you how it really is, and that seems to be in direct conflict with what you want to hear.

No one is looking to discourage you, just the opposite, we want to encourage you..but not with some BS about how easy it's going to be. The reality of the situation right now is no one is lending money for ideas and the days of angel investors are far and few in between.

Of course you should "think big", "outside the box" and every other business cliche' that you can utter from the sidelines, but until you have actually put some of that rhetoric into action..you are just romanticizing having your own business. A dreamer.

I can sit on the sidelines and second guess all day long, but it's just talk. You don't really know what it takes until you step off of the porch.

Everyone who works hard and is dedicated doesn't make it. Most people who secure loans and funding..fold..because most businesses fold.

Right away from the onset you say how much you don't like working for people, but you are also looking for someone else to foot the bill.
Well if someone else foots the bill , do you really think you won't be working for them?

We are trying to get you in the mind set that you may have to do things on your own and for yourself..that is the reality of most business owners.
You haven't taken any steps thus far and are looking for funding for things that you should be able to cover with a little ingenuity, or maybe even a second job.
In life, many times we have to do things we don't like to in order to get where we want to be.
The harder you work to put your plan into motion with your own time and money, the more you will appreciate it when it gets off of the ground and the better your chances are of helping it grow and become successful.

If working a bullsh*t job in order for you to pay for your own patent, and licenses...maybe even get some prototypes built is too much to ask because you "hate working", then I can say with almost certainty that you don't have what it takes to be in business for yourself because you aren't willing to do what you have to...to succeed. Or in your case to just get started. There is not an investor out there besides maybe your own friends and relatives that will invest money in someone who has that attitude.

Like I said, there is nothing wrong with thinking big, but it has to start somewhere. Talk is cheap. You can talk to all the millionaire businessmen you want but, have any of them offered to loan you a dime to get this thing going ? Probably not, and that should be lesson enough in what you need and have to do for yourself to get your dream up and running.

The Entrepreneurs Network
01-02-2010, 02:39 PM
If you want to attract an investor, then you need to write a complete business plan and not be too afraid that people will steal your idea. You should properly preface the business plan with a NDNC agreement and have that signed before you disclose anything. The business plan should provide enough information for an investor to be comfortable with your ability, the potential of the business and present an appealing exit strategy and return on the investment. You don't have to get into details of your software design. Even with a good business plan, don't think that borrowing money or finding a financial party will be easy. It will cost you or you might have to give up a significant part of the business. Start up capital is expensive.

BIZDEV
01-03-2010, 12:27 PM
One of the misconceptions Goodpho is trying to latch onto is Robert Kiyosaki's OPM (other people's money) concept. The problem with that is that Kiyosaki uses that method with real estate. That doesn't work for all business start ups.

As has been said already, to secure funding you need to show you yourself are willing to take the financial risk on your own idea. And if you refuse to even hold down a job to earn the money to start paying for the initial start up costs, you will never even get to the point where you can present your business plan to request funding.

As a business owner that has owned both brick and mortar (franchise) and Internet businesses, I can back up what has already been stated...owning your own business means working infinately harder and longer than working for somebody else. As a franchise owner I never worked so hard or such long hours in my entire life. It was the single most stressful time of my life. Sure, I was the boss and I came and went as I pleased, but guess what? There was NO time to do any of that.

An Internet business is only easier in that you can work it from home. But it still takes a good 5 or 6 hours a day after it is up and running just to keep up with the marketing of the website. And it takes years to build that Internet business into one that actually generates enough revenue to give you an income you can live off of. You will still need to get a "day job" to pay the bills.

This guy will learn with time and experience that there is no way around hard work if you want to make money.