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greenoak
12-12-2009, 09:20 AM
i went to the mall....and into a store run by indians and full of stuff made in india..... have you ever been waited on by indians? or the owner of an indian store? i hate to generalize, but my experience has been over 80% super top notch .....they want to sell and pay attention to the customers..they can barely hear the word no.......i got wonderful service as usual ...and bought...

..then to macys...it wasnt busy...one clerk spoke and seemed slighlty irritated when i did want to be shown where something was..... evrything was heavily on sale, they didnt tell me about the last 20$% off until checkout... ..... i got about 60$ worth of stuff and went to the checkout counter and got rung up with about a second of eye contact and barely a break in the 3 clerks storetalk conversation among themselves...
it was pretty bad...but not as bad as out in the mall...where one poor girl was manning a table for something and was texting., not even trying to look up.... glad shes not on my payroll...
.... my workers are so good compred to most of what i saw....and i hope we pay as much attention to the buyers as the indians usually do ... .

ann

huggytree
12-12-2009, 10:12 AM
I work for Indians a few times a year...they have not been good customers to deal with, but they seem to refer me....they haggle..and haggle, and haggle....they think everything is negotiable...very cheap buyers.....everytime they call i cringe..

my last experience with a man from India was to fix a leak...i gave him my rates over the phone...i went over and told them it will take 1 hour to fix....then they asked how much...i said we already agreed upon my price over the phone and i came to work, not to give a free estimate.....they suddenly didnt like my price.... i said ill go, but you owe me $155....they backed down and said to fix it...

in the trades we joke about them with each other...also the Chinese....we joke about how they all get 20 bids to save $10

I would have thought they wouldnt be good sellers either.

Ive also noticed many of them dont treat their wives very well. Some have talked down to them in front of me...it bugged me...

different cultures dont always mix well....im a straight shooter who gives a price and wont budge....the Indian culture is all about bargaining to find the lowest price...then bargain some more.

Patrysha
12-12-2009, 10:38 AM
Uh guys. I'm East Indian. Well half, but that is my culture and background and this feels a little uncomfortable. I know y'all mean no harm, but no one likes to be lumped as a stereotype and this forum is international and multi-cultural.

Yes, culturally it is a bargain-haggle culture and yes, it is very oppressive to women- but to paint everyone with the same brush is just ucky.

Yeah, it's a pain to keep up the facade of political correctness, but it really should be a matter of respect on open forums - shouldn't it?

dynocat
12-12-2009, 11:28 AM
Uh guys. I'm East Indian. Well half, but that is my culture and background and this feels a little uncomfortable. I know y'all mean no harm, but no one likes to be lumped as a stereotype and this forum is international and multi-cultural.

Yes, culturally it is a bargain-haggle culture and yes, it is very oppressive to women- but to paint everyone with the same brush is just ucky.

Yeah, it's a pain to keep up the facade of political correctness, but it really should be a matter of respect on open forums - shouldn't it?

Thank you Patrysha. I was a little shocked to read this. IMO, it's far more than being politically correct, but being part of the human race.

btw, I'm white, which is really irrelevant. Stereotyping and joking about those of another race or ethnicity is racist in my book.

painperdu
12-12-2009, 12:11 PM
different cultures dont always mix well....im a straight shooter who gives a price and wont budge....the Indian culture is all about bargaining to find the lowest price...then bargain some more.

I think it's the Asian culture in general. Given a choice between quality and price they seem to shop price. It's a shame because the US economy was built on quality products and services and this seems to be slipping as we become more aligned with Asian economies.

Patrysha
12-12-2009, 01:35 PM
I think it's the Asian culture in general. Given a choice between quality and price they seem to shop price. It's a shame because the US economy was built on quality products and services and this seems to be slipping as we become more aligned with Asian economies.

Again, that's pockets. For as many bargain shoppers as you can point out, I can point out as many Japanese, Vietnamese and Hong Kong immigrant and first generation families that shop exclusively at Holt Renfrew, Arnold Churgin, and other brand name exclusive boutiques.

I am a self-professed tightwad.

Is that because of my Scottish ancestory or my Indian side (keeping in mind that every woman on my step-mothers side of the family has enough gold to drape in that they make rapper's bling look understated)

Patrysha
12-12-2009, 01:43 PM
btw, I'm white, which is really irrelevant.

We haven't come far enough as a society to make the claim that it's really irrelevant. As someone who has lived in the half-n-half world, I don't think we'll be getting there anytime soon.

greenoak
12-12-2009, 01:47 PM
i love their hand made stuff....and i think its high quality, not low......and will be gone once their traditional stuff gets modernized .. i so admire how good they are as sellers in the gift world.even moreso if they want your wholesale orders......my experience with the indian sellers i know is way above normal service in most stores...maybe because you are often with the owner not some uninterested worker... ...
im glad to say i haggled him down a bit.....thats not wrong in my world.....im not supriesed with huggys experience tho...
most crap on the cheap shelves comes from china....but the standards come from our companies..... so i wouldnt blame the chinese....
talking about other cultures seems ok to me......and they are different.and all around us.....imho...

Patrysha
12-12-2009, 01:57 PM
talking about other cultures seems ok to me......and they are different.and all around us.....imho...

And nothing about that statement sounds off to you?

They??? Us??

I better walk away now because I am very tempted to say thing right now that would force Van Gogh into having to ban me for life.

greenoak
12-12-2009, 04:12 PM
ooops...im politically incorrect i guess....
wait till you are an old lady and chubby...then you can be actually picked on in polite society in all kinds of jokes..from mother in law things.. to cougar ...to granny panties.........and few care or notice....
..i wasnt rudely mentioning indians...just reporting my good experience...which i had in our other store in the 80s as well..when we bought gauze blouses and shesham wood boxes and hippie beads for our store...
..... but true they arent us...maybe later when they get totally integrated into our culture..

anyway i do notice difference in cultures.... its a fact..imho...and not good or bad...
. i hope for total homoginizing /for world peace...but till then i like some diversity...
im very white and not too proud of it....
ann

Steve B
12-12-2009, 05:13 PM
"but true they arent us...maybe later when they get totally integrated into our culture.."

Man, it's been a while since I've heard a statement like this. Brings me back to the 60's.

Harold Mansfield
12-12-2009, 06:20 PM
Different cultures have different customs. I have heard that in India everything is open for haggling. I've heard that from Indian-Americans as well as seen it in travel programs, so I can understand how first generation Indians would still be in the habit of those customs.
We all bring and keep customs from our native countries and they have all meshed together and conformed to our society.

Right now there are a ton of Indian (that are actually in India) webmasters, copywriters, programmers and anything else having to do with the web out there, bidding for jobs and they will undercut you down to minimum wage to get the job.
That's hard to compete with. I hope that's not a generalization...that's really the way it is.
An American copywriter would never do a job for $5 or $10, but the ones in India and Pakistan will post that price up in a minute.
Is that the norm for all Indian webmasters ? Of course not, but it's hard not to generalize when the market is flooded with cheap Indian labor over all other cultures and countries.

However, here in America when we were at the stage that India is at now..having their internet boom, it was just the opposite. Everyone and their mother was a web designer and were charging astronomical rates for jobs, and then when that became saturated..everyone became an SEO expert and the same thing happened.

Different cultures, different ways of doing business.

greenoak
12-12-2009, 06:30 PM
did i sound like the 60S ? sorry...by intergrated into our country i mean they will be like average americans and want all the services and be worse workers.... that first generation is wonderful in lots of ways....
i mentioned before that our state sent our unemployment office work to india...what a joke!!!! i think they did drop it...i hope...
first it was the laborers now the web work....i wonder what will be next to be outsourced?
we have very popular indian doctors around here.... i dont know why they come but we sure need them ....
ann

Harold Mansfield
12-12-2009, 07:45 PM
i mentioned before that our state sent our unemployment office work to india...what a joke!!!! i think they did drop it...i hope...
...
ann

WHAT ? That is ludicrous ! I have never heard of such a thing..sending Government funds (tax dollars) overseas instead of employing locally ? There should be a law against that. Who's bright idea was that?

greenoak
12-12-2009, 08:19 PM
our guv.....and it was to save us money...he also sold our toll road to an australian company....heres a little about it.... We're Outsourcing Food Stamp Jobs To India - The Consumerist (http://consumerist.com/2009/04/were-outsourcing-food-stamp-jobs-to-india.html#comments-content)

Harold Mansfield
12-12-2009, 09:34 PM
our guv.....and it was to save us money...he also sold our toll road to an australian company....heres a little about it.... We're Outsourcing Food Stamp Jobs To India - The Consumerist (http://consumerist.com/2009/04/were-outsourcing-food-stamp-jobs-to-india.html#comments-content)

This is wrong ! Stimulus money is supposed to be to stimulate the U.S. economy....not send it to other countries.
I consider this a gross injustice. We are building up a substantial debt to employ people in other countries ?

Dan Furman
12-12-2009, 11:38 PM
One thing that I really enjoy about my business is how "wordly" an internet business can be. I deal with many people in many countries, and I love it.

I don't like "they" or "us" talk from anyone. From majority or minority.

Really - think about this, folks... what does an American (or a Canadian, for that matter) look like?

billbenson
12-13-2009, 02:32 AM
This thread started out with Ann being the customer and making a generalization.

Take the opposite. Ann is a vendor. I believe I saw her state that her customer base was primarily women. So, she targets her marketing to women. Its a generalization and I'm sure an occasional man buys her products. Still, she is better off marketing to women. I don't see a problem with profiling by any factors that make sense.

Having said that, profiling by race of immigrants probably only is relevant for people who immigrated here as an adult. The traditions of their culture are well engrained. People born here, unless very well indoctrinated by family or other factors grow up in America and adopt our "way".

The basis for my comments comes from living for 10 years in Latin America and being married to a girl I met in a poor country in Central America who came from a lower middle class family (by our standards), and watching only Latin TV stations (wife has 24/7 control of the TV remote). **Dan excuse my last sentence as it can't possibly be grammatically correct.**

Since I mentioned TV, Spanish language TV stations target different sectors within their society. That means US born Latinos to illegal immigrants. And they vary dramatically. My wife frequently points out a lot of the differences.

greenoak
12-13-2009, 09:21 AM
good points bill....and i hope lots of the great parts get passed down...i like the differences........ ..
.my little point was ..
. ..in general after quite a bit of excellent interaction with indian businesses..[i like their native needle crafts]...i still dont see anything wrong with saying i think indian, probably first generation, business owners and workers have over and over given me great service....and really been far above most american workers in the same general settings.......they, meaning first generation indian immigrants , are not like us,us meaning melted foriegners , in those ways....they probably will be in the next generation.... ....i run a retail store and i want to give this kind of service....this was a business post. .....
.... i was referring to the differences i see... to me its wierd when you cant talk about obvious differences because someone might see it as politically incorrect..
.... .......can i feel insulted for being a wasp?..i do live in a very rural white state, ..but, im a wierd one.. im for gay rights, womens rights, black rights, helping the homeless, against us reforming native cultures, ..
.
and against the whole culture of victumhood....i think its set the black and womens rights movements into very damaging territories....almost fostering being irresponsible..to me it isnt like the old days when the message was about i am woman i am strong...or martin luther kings wonderful ideas... . .....

i hope we dont get where we cant say mexicans like spicy food....sounds like the silly season to me...but no harm meant...
.if i wanted to talk about my reservations about the indians it would be about the untouchables , the poor over there,my parents travelled and saw them laying in the streets like sick dogs, , and why the good drs come here instead of taking care of their poor...and also i thought indians were caucasian..
hey....this is the water cooler!!!
ann

Spider
12-13-2009, 09:34 AM
I don't mind the "us" and "them" terminology, as long as it is not used unkindly. In fact, I enjoy the culture differences. I lived 10 years in a country with longstanding communities (ie. not recent immigrants) of christian, muslem and hindu people with their special holidays and events. It was a honor to have diverse friends such that I might be invited to a hindu wedding one weekend, a muslem family gathering on another and a christian festival on another.

It's all very well applauding the assimilation of foreigners into local culture. I think each time that happens the world is a little less colorful and a little more homogeneous. Homogeneity has some advantages but can be rather boring, I find.

But the kindness factor is essential. Without that, a minority gets overly sensitive about "us" and "them" remarks, some of the majority get overly sensitive about offending minorities while other majority members get overly sensitive about political correctness. Not to mention the opportunities for intentional rudeness both ways across the divide.

It's risky, although, personally, I would rather celebrate our differences than to celebrate our sameness.

greenoak
12-13-2009, 09:40 AM
well said........thats how i feel too ....

huggytree
12-13-2009, 10:39 AM
I meant no insult Patrysha....its a cultural thing not a race thing....

Patrysha admitts about the Indian culture treatment of women....Ive witnessed poor treatment many times of their wives.

Part of being in business is putting people into catagories...when i detect a cheap person i change my sales technique...i have found people from India to be hagglers...ive worked with 15+ Indian people...guess how many wanted to Haggle? all 15!!!...that puts Indian people into a catagory...thats just smart business....i didnt make them hagglers..their culture did...not their race...

guess how many hagglers ive experienced other than Indians? 2 or 3 EVER!


racism means you think people of other races are inferior....i do think some cultures offer more positives than others, but dont think someone color makes them inferior.....

different cultures just mean different..

I work for anyone...i do seem to work for more Indian people than other plumbers seem to.....so i think im in their referral network..i still cringe when someone calls with an Indian accent...i know its going to be a difficult customer...it is what it is...

Patrysha
12-13-2009, 12:05 PM
I didn't say I was insulted. I said I was uncomfortable.

When it turned to "US and THEY", then I was livid.

And I walked away, because that indeed is my own personal peccadillo and something no one is responsible for.

Being a human who has been through some of the experiences I've had, I have NO appreciation the "us and they" tone of the conversation. When you are born a "half breed bastard" and "an abomination that God cries over" you get a wee bit sensitive about things when conversations start into us and they.

And it makes no difference that I know in my head intellectually that it was just a conversation about generalizations and that cultures do have differences...that didn't stop it from triggering bad memories. Once the box is opened it is hard to stuff it all back in and make them go away.

That is why minorities get sensitive about US and THEY conversations, not necessarily because of the conversations going on in the moment but because of the ones going on in their heads. I'm sorry but I've just never experienced that as kind no matter what the intentions of the speaker...because it's a trigger for an unpleasant and emotionally painful experience.

nealrm
12-13-2009, 12:33 PM
The US is very interesting when it comes to prejudice. Real prejudice does still exist in the US and I suspect it will for a long time. Perceived prejudice is also very real in the US. Unfortunately, extreme avoidance of being labeled prejudice has hampered our ability at enjoying the differences between the cultures. Some cultures haggle, some don't - so what. Some cultures call a game where you run with the ball in your hand "Football" others say that "Football" is played with the feet.

As for good service and culture. I have not found that to be culture based. I have found both lousy and service in all cultures.

huggytree
12-13-2009, 01:06 PM
Im part German....WI is heavily German and Polish...I think there is still a bit of cultural difference locally....they are slow to change and are more frugal than average.....it is also something many businessmen have talked to me about..

we still use alot of Copper piping because they dont want to change to new idea's...

i mean no racist comment to Germans on Polish people of the Midwest....but knowing the differences is an advantage in business...thinking every culture is the same and treating every customer sale exactly the same is flawed...I give every customer the exact same service, but i sell differently..

the same could be said about Old customers and Young customers...they both want different products....i suggest different things to both of them...my sales technique is completely different...

I am extremely honest....i mean nothing by it....it is what it is...its my opinion and its an honest opinion of the world i have to live in.

greenoak
12-13-2009, 02:02 PM
huggy...when i deal with a known haggler....one who cant be happy without beating me down... it, i do this....i raise my price so he can get me down....it works...and we are both happy....
sounds like you might have a great niche going on in the indian community....

..im suprised youve had it so rough patrysha.... i dont think you would be singled out and called names in our little town.... ...
ditto with huggys comments on race and culture, that would be the easier way to look at people when they are talking about your hot button issues...it might help a person to take things as they are meant.....

Patrysha
12-13-2009, 02:09 PM
im suprised youve had it so rough patrysha.... i dont thnk you would be singled out and called names in our little town.... ...

If I can be asked if Osama is my uncle in a town of 2000 or so in Northern Alberta...it can happen anywhere. (It was just after 9/11 and it was a mean old man and not general consensus of everyone else around...but all it takes is a pocket)

The names from the other post...that was when I was a kid...

huggytree
12-13-2009, 03:15 PM
if someone asked me something like that id probably smile and make a joke out of it somehow...i wouldnt get angry....my skin is very thick....Id turn the comment into a conversation or id say something negative back...depends on how i could twist it.....the old man obviously didnt truely believe Osama was your uncle....he was just being mean or weird.

as a kid my dad taught me when someone picks on you pick something out on them thats alittle different and say something back...you have big ears, you dress funny...it shuts a bully down and makes him move onto a new target.....

my personal opinions of people from India are quite positive..."They" are typically very clean, well dressed, have above average jobs, hard working, structured, partictular...i could go on and on about "Them"....the Indian culture has more good qualities than bad....one of the bad ones is "They" are cheap....oh well..

I am very hard working and partictular....i think this is why "they" like my work and refer me.

As a country India is moving up....the USA is moving down

their phone answering services get an F though....when i get transfered to India I expect the conversation to take 30 minutes and not go well.

Patrysha
12-13-2009, 03:39 PM
it.....the old man obviously didnt truely believe Osama was your uncle....he was just being mean or weird.

Exactly, he was saying it to be mean. And I brushed it off. I didn't get all mad and uppity or anything. I laughed and mumbled "No sir, I'm half East Indian and half Scottish, my family is not from the Middle East"

And all I was saying is that I get it in my head- that most people don't say things to be mean, but others do. And it's hard not be on guard for the ones that do.

And in that circumstance, I was more upset that this person was so bigoted that he couldn't even be bothered to notice the details that make it obvious that I am not Arabic...that I was just happened to have a bit deeper complexion and be in a red neck town.

huggytree
12-13-2009, 05:59 PM
Hey...I live in a redneck town......there's gun shots daily in my subdivision....

hmmmmm.....why do Indians always call white people they disagree with rednecks?

hmmmmmm......just kidding.....Redneck is a negative term though

isnt India anti arab?

I know they are almost at war with Pakistan......

Patrysha
12-13-2009, 06:27 PM
hmmmmmm......just kidding.....Redneck is a negative term though


Redneck just means working class/farming town in the way I intended it (though it's also a position on an oilcrew) back before industrialization you could identify the working class from the nobility because the working class would have red necks from working in the sun.

I don't keep up with India's politics so I don't know what their official stand is on the Middle East, but there is a lot of churning history between the Hindus and Muslims and there is also always things going on with the Sikh's. So many people with different religions are always fighting over something or other there.

Spider
12-13-2009, 06:35 PM
Patrysha - to tell another Anthony Robbins story (which I think he stole from Deepak Chopra, not sure) - You may have heard it but I'll tell it anyway.

Buddha was said to be so calm and serene that it was impossible to insult him. One man took up the challenge, travelled to where the Buddha lived and tried to insult him. For several days he came back for an audience many times and shouted abuse and insults at the Buddha - who just listened and smiled and did not answer.

On the third day, Buddha said, "If someone gives you a gift and you refuse that gift, to whom does it belong?"

The message - which I'm sure you understand - is that no-one can insult you unless you give them permission. The hurt of an insult is something you do to yourself. Until you accept an insult it is not yours, it is still the other person's. "If someone gives you a gift and you refuse that gift, to whom does it belong?"

I think you handled that old man appropriately by brushing off his remarks and you do not appear to have been upset by it, as an adult, because you refuse to accept his "gift." What seems to make you uncomfortable is the childhood memories such remarks bring to your conscousness. And perhaps not the memory of the occasion but the memory of the pain you felt as a child. Anthony Robbins has some marvelous techniques for addressing that. I seem to remember that he explains them very well in Personal Power II - a 12-tape (now on CD) self-improvement program. If you want to know more, I will dig out where this information can be found. If you want to search on your own, he called it the "Swoosh" pattern.

greenoak
12-13-2009, 07:25 PM
redneck would be mostly a bad word where i am...the exception might be the funny but friendly jokes and songs / extreme redneck humor..like from jeff foxworthy.....all about guys and their trucks, beer, dogs and guns...
it doesnt cover most working men....
here the normal usage would mean lower class and uneducated...and worse....

billbenson
12-14-2009, 02:07 AM
Since this thread touched on prejudice I thought I'd relay a story. I'm your basic white guy from middle class america. When I moved to where I currently live, I encountered prejudice against me for the first time. Prejudice from being married to a Latina chick. She's also much younger than I am which doesn't help.

Before I moved here, I lived in South Florida for a couple of years and before that Latin America for about 10 years. South Florida is kind of like California in many ways. It's a melting pot of Latin America and North America. As a couple, we fit right in.

Where I live now is in a fairly small town in Central Florida. 50K people. It has a feel of rural Alabama to it, although its near Tampa. The origins of the town are farmland. Now its just a town that grew out of that. When I first moved here, I lived in an apartment complex. If I went outside at 8am to watch people going to work, nobody was dressed as a professional. What I wold call business people. Driving around, there are no complexes where you can rent an office, no high tech. Just retail and services. I can't figure out what those people in the apartment complex did for a living, because there just isn't that much here.

What I found, however, is I REALLY didn't fit in. To me normal behavior is if you live next to someone you say hi, introduce yourself, shake their hand. What happened in the apartment complex was people avoided me. I eventually made a game out of it with my neighbor. If I was walking out and she was arriving, she would go around the far side of her car to avoid saying hello. She would never make eye contact. What I did was try to make sure she had to walk by me and I'd give a big friendly hello. Except after I first introduced myself, it was more to mess with her than to be genuinely friendly.

The lady described above was more extreme, but the same held true for everybody I can remember there. It wasn't necessarily because I was married to a latina, because people that had no way of knowing acted that way as well. I think this by and large is an educational issue. If I drive to the beach which is only several miles away, everybody is friendly and professional. Draw your own conclusion.

Here's the racial part, and its kind of strange when you've never experienced it before. My wife gets pulled over by cops about every 6 months. Never ticketed. Usually for running stop signs that she didn't run. If she actually ran them, she would have a ticket by now. I have never been pulled over here. It's bad enough that I'm thinking about putting a dash cam in my wifes car. My wife doesn't run stop signs as a matter of habit. Two of the cops (one unmarked) were visibly angry when she had a license. Obviously looking for illegal immigrants. The thing is illegal immigrants are usually laborors and come by and large from rural Mexico. My wife's appearance is Latina, but very different features than the bulk of the illegals in the area and the cops can't figure that out?

When we are out together it's really interesting. Unless we are in a very nice restaurant, you can feel the holes being burned in your back by the eye stares. My friends say we are imagining it, but you can tell. It's not like the old guy story Patrysha told, but you feel it. It's more the way people stare at the deformed kid in the wheel chair than a true racial thing in most cases, but it's quite racial occasionally. Probably doesn't help that we frequently speak in Spanish, but screw em. It's America and if I want to speak in Spanish, I will.

I pretty much just shake my head in amazement at it. The only part that really angers me is the cops pulling over my wife.

Patrysha
12-14-2009, 10:14 AM
I think you handled that old man appropriately by brushing off his remarks and you do not appear to have been upset by it, as an adult, because you refuse to accept his "gift."

I was upset by it (on the inside) but what earthly good would it have done for a grocery store clerk go off on a tirade against a silly old man who would not learn from the experience anyway? If he hadn't figured out how to treat people in the 70 odd years he had already lived, he wasn't going to get it now.


What seems to make you uncomfortable is the childhood memories such remarks bring to your conscousness. And perhaps not the memory of the occasion but the memory of the pain you felt as a child.
Yeah, that sounds about right. As a kid you don't have the tools to be able to process stuff like that. Or maybe it was that I was using what tools I did have at the time to get through the rest of the mess that was attacking my psyche (really prejudice was one of the least of my challenges)


Anthony Robbins has some marvelous techniques for addressing that. I seem to remember that he explains them very well in Personal Power II - a 12-tape (now on CD) self-improvement program. If you want to know more, I will dig out where this information can be found. If you want to search on your own, he called it the "Swoosh" pattern.

I might take you up on that sometime down the road. Working on other areas of improvement at the moment, this issue is more of those slight burrs that comes up every so often - so it's one I feel comfortable with not addressing atm.

On the whole society is much more willing to accept and encourage the expression of different cultures than they used to be. I know I would not feel completely out of place wearing a sari or a fancy salvar-khameez to a dress up party instead of a cocktail dress and would likely get dozens of compliments and oohs and ahhs.

Patrysha
12-14-2009, 10:37 AM
When we are out together it's really interesting. Unless we are in a very nice restaurant, you can feel the holes being burned in your back by the eye stares. My friends say we are imagining it, but you can tell. It's not like the old guy story Patrysha told, but you feel it. It's more the way people stare at the deformed kid in the wheel chair than a true racial thing in most cases, but it's quite racial occasionally. Probably doesn't help that we frequently speak in Spanish, but screw em. It's America and if I want to speak in Spanish, I will.

I pretty much just shake my head in amazement at it. The only part that really angers me is the cops pulling over my wife.

I know exactly what you mean by the feeling and the stares. But like you said, it's easy for others to brush that off and tell you you're imagining things -- the thing is most of what goes on today is not overt. And you know, I'm pretty sure most of the people that are glancing and staring are not malicious at all but just intensely curious.

I think it would be worth investing in that dash cam. Just in case anything were to ever escalate beyond what it has been.

The worst has got to be hearing my mother in law share the fears she had before we had children...though she never actually voiced them until afterward...she was worried about having dark grandchildren...that there'd be some sort of recessive gene that would have them be the dark kind of Indian. She didn't like that fear, or the feeling of relief that they all look like their dad more than me...but it was there...

Spider
12-14-2009, 11:56 AM
...most of the people that are glancing and staring are not malicious at all but just intensely curious...Of course, if you are pretty, that might account for some of the looks, too! Especially from the men!!!

Blacktalon
12-14-2009, 09:59 PM
Patrysha you ought to listen to Russell Peters if you're so concerned about East Indian stereotypes. You'd get a kick out of his routine.

The Indian people are more mercantile and business-savvy. It's part of their heritage, so there's obviously going to be some form of haggling or whatever it is that their mercantile heritage will manifest in.

I have no qualms about the Indian people at all. They're extremely nice, and their personal disposition is quite pleasant to say the least. And their culture is vibrant.

I myself am French Canadian with Lebonese tracings. I'm about as bilingual as you can get: I can interchange between the two languages at will and enjoy this part of our Canadian culture quite a lot. It just shames me there aren't any other people willing to participate in learning either of our two official languages, or how the hardline Québec separatists would rather suppress their culture rather than share it with the rest of us. (Actually, I ought to add in this little anecdotal bit of information: Demand for French immersion in Ontario is unbelievably high).

The city of Toronto has evolved so much over the past fifteen or so years. Ever since Québec separation ran rampant in the late 70's and up till the mid-90's, Toronto has become the central part of Canada. Montréal was once the most populous city in the country but everyone flocked out once René Levesque opened his mouth about sovereignty. And because of that, the majority of people and businesses came to Toronto to escape that banter.

The downtown of Toronto opens ones eyes to a menagerie of various cultures from all four corners of the world. I find it quite pleasing to see them talking on a peaceful level about how badly the Toronto Maple Leafs are doing over a cup of Tim Horton's.

The only stipulation I have, though, is as long as these people learn to adapt into Canadian society and values then I have no issues with them at all. It's when they start to gradually bring their homeland customs here is when I get a little ruffled.

I'm also curious, Patrysha, how many francophones live or how much French there is in Alberta at the moment?

Blacktalon

Patrysha
12-14-2009, 10:36 PM
It really depends on where you are and who you know. Falher which was down the road from where we once lived, was founded in French and a great deal of it's population were bilingual.

My step mother in law (my husband's dad's long time girlfriend) is Acadian. So...she's completely bilingual as are her kids and grandkids.

My husband and I have school French and the kids are getting the same...

He speaks German and Ukrainian and I can understand a couple of Indian languages (but I can't speak fluently or read them at all)

I have watched Russel Peters. He's funny. I'm not concerned about East Indian stereotypes as long as they are not used to judge. When the observations to turn into divisions instead of bridges, that's when I get concerned.

Sure, we all have preconceived notions about what a person is going to be like, but at least give each person a chance to prove (or disprove) it on their own merits.

greenoak
12-15-2009, 09:08 AM
back to this threads original idea......isnt it a shame that customer service is so low in retail....wouldnt the owners of macys just crap if they saw those 3 women ignoring me when i was finally there in front of them and could buy about anything i felt like buying..for myself or who knows , maybe my christmas list too ....?
i dont really expect much in the malls...but the indian service was a delight in contrast.....you city people are probably used to this...im really not... .........
we treat our 5$ customers better...or always try to...
like covys books pointed out so well.....if you just do a good job you will be ahead of most of your competition......if one of these; macys,pennys or sears had the service the indians did i wouldnt even go to the other 2...they would stand out so much!!!

Patrysha
12-15-2009, 10:14 AM
wouldnt the owners of macys just crap if they saw those 3 women ignoring me

Likely not. Now I am not totally familiar with Macy's, but imagine they operate much like other department stores. Low wages (relative to boutique salesclerks), lots of part time staff with hours constantly being cut, no staff input or engagement on the store level (everything comes from head office) - so with those things in place - How can they expect to attract the kind of staff who will provide a great consumer experience except by luck?

i dont really expect much in the malls...but the indian service was a delight in contrast.....you city people are probably used to this...im really not...
I'm in a small town and our mall is quite tiny. At one end is a massive store that I avoid as a shopper - service is minimal and snooty and that I am just not hip enough to breathing the same air. The couple of times I tried to shop there I felt as if I was interrupting their social time. In contrast, at the other end is a wonderful experience every time I walk in...even when I am just there to talk to the owner - the sales staff acknowledges me when I come in, makes sure they point out new stock that they think I'd like and generally make me feel welcome even though I spend less in a year there than some of their customers spend in one transaction.


like covys books pointed out so well.....if you just do a good job you will be ahead of most of your competition

A couple of years ago, when I was still in radio I tried to talk about the service with the one owner of the store that has issues...because I had a few ideas. (And I really figured most of their advertising was going to waste...) All I got was complaints and reasons why things couldn't be done. There was a palpable contempt for potential customers who head into the city for the same lines of clothing etc that the store carried, but there was nothing being done that would entice a person to stay that I could see. Still, there must be enough people buying to stay in business...

greenoak
12-16-2009, 08:15 AM
i see retail a lot different ....and always study it...even when christmas shopping..... you would be suprised at boutique owners...if you think they pay more than the malls.... the ones i know anyway...
...
maybe you werent hitting the right buttons with the retail store you were trying to sell to.....there are a lot of issues in retail......and they probably arent obvious to the average person trying to sell radio ads.....
..usually marketing advice is something the person getting the advice has already heard a lot and considered..or is so general if you signed up you would be on a wing and a prayer....or totally not related to our marketing calendar...... marketers would be suprised at how many different pitches we get every year...on the phone, online, from the radio people, all the papers..webinars, bootcamps, .etc etc.....i love hearing it tho.....and sometimes it helps... i have to make major marketing decisions...
. i know if i really signed up with a marketer ,,, one really up to date on my business and field,, i would be getting lots deeper advice.....
i just lost a great rep from a paper.maternity leave......she knew my promotion schedule, kept my needs in mind, makes me feel ike i got the best deal, and got 4 kind of long term ad runs a year from us......the new one calls on the papers promotions and emails me once in a while....if i get to it i still put in an ad for my events...but nothing like years before...
i could write a book on marketers!!!

.and i have advice to marketers,,,.. probably ignored....lol... my advice to marketers trying to find work is always kind of ...dig deep into one field and that will add value to your service to the businesses in that field.. ...you would be a wonder!!!
.be good at ; old people, young people, truckers, contractors, hairdressers, retail boutiques, pet stores...etc etc etc.... pick one or 2 and get educated and go for it!!!
but no, we stores get small marketers who dont know our words, pick the wrong style, try hard but dont hit the right buttons ....so we, us stores, go for good reliable service and as good as we can get....but nothing great...like we really want....

Patrysha
12-16-2009, 10:31 AM
maybe you werent hitting the right buttons with the retail store you were trying to sell to.....there are a lot of issues in retail......and they probably arent obvious to the average person trying to sell radio ads.....

I wasn't trying to sell to her. She was already buying, but (IMO) not very effectively.

It doesn't do much to advertise if a person can walk into a store observing a customer trying on $300 winter jackets with absolutely no one there to assist. The customer was going back herself to get the other size.

That was just one of about 20 customer service related things that happened during a shopping trip. I was trained as a mystery shopper at one point and her store would have failed on that shop.

None of the ideas I would have presented would have cost her very much, all had been effective in other places and while I know it sounds a bit brash - I am far above average when it comes to radio & marketing.

As we've all noticed there are some merchants who get it, and there are some who don't. There are some who will strive to improve and others who will float along at the bare minimum.

Thankfully there are enough who want to improve to keep me in business.

greenoak
12-16-2009, 05:38 PM
thats kind of how i felt at macys!!! they just did so much so wrong....and the indian lady in the other store...helped me in every way she could....