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phanio
12-06-2009, 10:13 AM
Maybe I am still naive when it comes to the principals of capitalism – but, I think we have really lost our way regarding capitalism.

The other day I was having a conversation with someone I really respect and we were discussing some of the practices that businesses (large and small) use today just to make a quick buck.

I was trying to explain that I think businesses should be more concerned about long-term growth and development not just trying to con or scam consumers out of as much as they can as quickly as they can.

Our discussion then turned to these corporate big wigs that get guaranteed money contracts regardless if they add value to their organizations or not – i.e. $100 million in compensation while the company’s stock loses 40% or more in value.

I have a MBA in finance and one of the first (very first) concepts they teach and drum into you is that a business owners or managers or CEO or Board of Director’s only roll is to add value to the shareholders – whether the shareholder is you or a hundred thousand investors.

After I finished my small rant regarding this, this person, whom I respect, just blew my mind and simply stated; “welcome to capitalism.”

Now, I am no babe in the woods when it comes to business and theories behind capitalism. But, I guess my concept of what capitalism should stand for may be a little off – if this person is right. My ideology of capitalism is kind of like the idea of freedom or that of America – that is it bigger than just trying to make a quick buck by screwing someone else. That is it bigger than you or me and that it is something that is virtuous and right and can never be corrupted (the theory and concepts of capitalism – as people are easily corruptible). Maybe I am just naïve – but this is my belief – something that I like to hold on too – my paradigm – my light in the dark (hope you get what I mean).

Thus, I ask here – what is your opinion of capitalism? Is it to just get the most for yourself and the heck with everyone else or is it to truly build value and offer that value to people who are in need and willing to pay for that value?

Spider
12-06-2009, 11:42 AM
Simply put, you are right - your friend is wrong.

Capitalism is about using and building capital. It's not about greed, which is the corrupted idea of capitalism that we see too much of, these days. It is about growth and substance, not about taking as much as you can out of the system. Capitalism creates, greed destroys.

Yes, it is also about getting as much for yourself but what is lost in so many places today is that getting as much as possible as quickly as possible without adding value is theft. And it doesn't get as much for yourself as could be obtained by following a path of substantive growth for everyone.

What benefits the rich man when all about him are in poverty? My life is richer if the world is richer. Think of it as living in a fine mansion in the heart of a shanty town, as opposed to living in a fine mansion where every home is a fine mansion.

Patrysha
12-06-2009, 12:11 PM
Reading something in theory and seeing it played out in real life is always like that.

People get in the way of the way things are supposed to be. They move forward with their emotions and start breaking the "rules" and stop focusing on the ideals.

So how we define capitalism is different from how people live it out.

Of course, I am an optimist and so I look for ways and signs that it is working rather than seeing the multitude of ways that it is not.

When it comes down to it, the only person we control is ourself - and so the only way to ensure you see capitalism played out the way you envision it is to incorporate it into your business and be a leader, encouraging others to do the right thing.

huggytree
12-06-2009, 04:01 PM
We used to kill Socialists/Communists on the battlefield....now 1/3rd of our population believes in Socialism and is not afraid to openly admitt it.

Its growing...and Its misguided....Socialism doesnt bring up the poor...it brings down the rich...it makes us all poor...

Capitolism isnt perfect...but its 1,000,000x better...Nothing is perfect..there will be suffering no matter what we do....Capitolism creates the least amount of suffering and the most amount of wealth.

Capitolism give the opportunity for people who are Smart, hardworking and make good decisions to be rich....but it doesnt do much for people who are lazy,dumb and make continous poor decisions....they suffer...and they should otherwise their kids will be the same....

What % of capitalists are just in it for themselves??....a few %? 20%?....i dont think many small businessmen feel that way...some large companies yes....nothing is perfect...

If we lose Capitalism our kids and grandkids will be living in a 3rd world country....right now i think the odds are 50/50.....it doesnt matter which polital party you vote for...Democat or Democrat Light...one runs toward Socialism the other is walking towards it....Id like to see the Democat lights to atleast stop walking.

handprop
12-06-2009, 04:55 PM
Both communists and socialists benefit from capitalism, it just depends on scale. In America our economic system uses capitalism as a means for everyone vs. an economy that's government controlled. But even in a government controlled economy capitalism is still required but the benefits are for a select few, so take your pick. Capitalism should operate according to supply and demand, as well as the drive for greed and profit. It's this drive for profit (greed) that makes the system questionable, but I still love it.

The real question isn't about capitalism but rather greed. Although greed gets a bad name it's really not, it's a good thing, and we all depend on it. Greed has a fault of course because humans are left to their own morals and integrity to obtain objects, material, wealth, cash, social position etc. but it's still good.

I love greed because of this. Ever hear the statement "Never underestimate the American entrepreneur"? It's not entrepreneurship that's great, it's greed, and the support system for it is unbridled capitalism. So in the words of Gordon Gecko from the movie Wall Street Greed is good!

Greed is the magic behind capitalism/entrepreneurship.

Is their an excessive desire to possess these things by some that makes them act unfairly? Of course, but that comes with the territory. What's missing in this society is a moral compass.

In any other system the government decides who needs and deserves these items......a bad deal for sure because they also have the freedom to decide other things as well.

I woke up this morning and went flying in a $250,000 airplane all over Wisconsin visiting friends and I had a blast. I bought the airplane because of capitalism and greed. And yes, I made it off the backs of others......that's how the system works. But don't forget others also make money off the backs of me......and I'm fine with that, actually I encourage it.

The one thing that irritates me to no end is when people think wealth has something to do with how hard you work, nothing could be further from the truth. I don't don't work hard, I work smart and use capitalism to the fullest extent.

Given the set of capitalistic rules we have, I feel it's important to also give back to society in some way or another and many people don't.

Mike

Patrysha
12-06-2009, 04:58 PM
Capitolism give the opportunity for people who are Smart, hardworking and make good decisions to be rich....but it doesnt do much for people who are lazy,dumb and make continous poor decisions....they suffer...and they should otherwise their kids will be the same....


This assumes that the poor are dumb and lazy. Really?

Is the value of people really supposed to be tied up in how much we can accumulate in our lifetimes?

Was I less deserving of the benefits society did provide (an education, healthcare, support when I was on the streets at 17) as a human being because I wasn't born with all the advantages as the kids down the street? Why because I wasn't smart enough not to be born to rich parents??

I believe in capitalism...I don't believe this means survival of the richest alone...

handprop
12-06-2009, 05:17 PM
Poor people are at a real disadvantage to capture the "Piece of the pie" that capitalism offers. It's really difficult for the common guy to get ahead in modern times and I'm not sure how to solve this. The so called "poor people" are some of the most grounded and good hearted people around.

Mike

Patrysha
12-06-2009, 05:43 PM
Poor people are at a real disadvantage to capture the "Piece of the pie" that capitalism offers. It's really difficult for the common guy to get ahead in modern times and I'm not sure how to solve this. The so called "poor people" are some of the most grounded and good hearted people around.

Mike

I don't think the qualities of grounded and good hearted are related to the size (or lack of) of their bank account.

I think there are enough examples of millionaires that came from humble beginnings to know that challenges are a fact of life and the story is told through how a person responds to those challenges.

I just don't think it's fair that the way it is assumed you are dumb or lazy just because you are poor and that some capitalists believe that you don't deserve any breaks until you can prove that you've earned them by getting to a certain level of income.

Let's take breakfast programs, for example. Pure capitalism would suggest this is nobody's business or responsibility. It costs money, it doesn't make money. And yeah, making sure kids are fed before they start the school day shouldn't have be a needed service, but it is. It is not their fault that they were born to poor parents who may or may not have made bad decisions. Who may or may not be continuing to make really rotten choices.

Fact is, if the kids don't eat you cannot teach them. You can round 'em up and force them into desks, but then can't pay attention. So the chances of them making any better choices as they grow older diminishes.

Just because I managed to work my way out of what could have been doesn't make me better than those who didn't.

handprop
12-06-2009, 05:57 PM
Well, one thing to consider is that few people will take advantage of capitalism. If I were to hand a poor person a stack of cash, say 100,000, odds are they would fail and the money would be wasted. Success requires certain traits that few people have regardless of money. The % of people who think and develop a plan for success is not likely to change, so my guess is help when you can but for them to really break through the barriers of capitalism money is seldom the reason. The will to do something is a powerful force and it seems like many people become hard wired in their thinking and will never change.


Mike

handprop
12-06-2009, 06:00 PM
OH, I almost forgot, capitalism has nothing to do with breakfast programs! Many things make up a society and to compare the two and how they work together doesn't make any sense.

Mike

Spider
12-06-2009, 06:03 PM
...When it comes down to it, the only person we control is ourself - and so the only way to ensure you see capitalism played out the way you envision it is to incorporate it into your business and be a leader, encouraging others to do the right thing.Perfect reply! (I tried to give you some rep.points, Patrysha, but the system said I have to spead the love around a bit more!!!)

Patrysha
12-06-2009, 07:42 PM
If I were to hand a poor person a stack of cash, say 100,000, odds are they would fail and the money would be wasted.

Who in their right mind would give someone that much money without the tools to use it? Don't you think that money would be better invested to educate tons of people with a course in positive thinking strategies and another in small business management than give $100,000 to one person with no clue. Just because lotteries do that doesn't mean it make sense! Just $100 in the right hands can turn into a fortune with the right tools.


Success requires certain traits that few people have regardless of money.
I think that is something we tell ourselves to make us feel better about not helping out more. What traits except optimism and desire do you need to really be on the path to success?

Are we really sending the message that anyone can make it? Or are too many of us still stuck in the days where there was a wrong side of the track? Success requires drive, determination and perseverance but before you can have any of that you need hope.


The % of people who think and develop a plan for success is not likely to change, so my guess is help when you can but for them to really break through the barriers of capitalism money is seldom the reason. The will to do something is a powerful force and it seems like many people become hard wired in their thinking and will never change.

Of course the thinking isn't going to change if we keep feeding people the same messages of fear punctuated by "There's no hope" and "The job is too big for us to handle".

If we send the message that "poor = dumb and lazy" then we can't claim to be sending a positive message.

handprop
12-06-2009, 08:40 PM
Patrysha, it's gonna take a heck of a lot more than a message, that's just a pipe dream. As far as tools to succeed that's false also because in the end it's all about the human condition and the fact is it's the "DRIVE" and "DETERMINATION" that does make the difference as you point out. I can't give that to somebody, people do need to claim some responsibility for themselves.

I just got back from putting gas in my truck. While I was in line behind people they were all buying magazines, smokes (8.00 a pack) and garbage food, and It makes me sick. Total irresponsibility.

I have 4 duplexes and an 8 family. Most of the people who rent from me I have known for years. Each month all but 3 people are late with the payments so lets talk about them. I would say by any standard they are poor, but as I see the spending habits I just don't feel sorry. Most of them smoke and I let them because I figure why not. But at $8.00 a pack most of them smoke at least a pack a day, usually more, so that's about $300 a month. Now let's figure in that most of them actually drive a car with a payment, I know this because I ask them all. If your poor do you need a nice car with a payment? Realizing the odds of them having a down payment are slim to none the car payments would be about another $300 a month. Junk food, movies, and liquor are another thing.

So what have they done for themselves? I'm not saying everyone in America is like this but I'm pretty sure most of them are.

Would a road map help these people? What would they do with a lump of cash? Are they motivated to seek out answers?

What responsibilities do they take for their own actions?

Mike

huggytree
12-06-2009, 08:56 PM
Patrysha....nothing is ever 100%....sure there are poor people because life has delt them a bad luck situation....or they are handicapped in some way....having poor parents can be a disadvantage thats a bit hard to over come....but from my life experience i find poor people have less drive and make more poor decisions than good ones...

i think any poor person can become middle class or rich if they want to...so why dont they?

some blame everyone else for their problems...some work as little as they have to...some settle for whatever job they can find and dont try to move up....some people take stupid risks without thinking them through

some people are never content with where they are in life......some people want to learn and grow...some people make all the correct decisions in how they live their life.

I have poor relatives....they all have similar things in common...bad decisions and no drive...its not just 1 bad decision..most of their decisions on their life are bad..they make bad decisions because its easy...bad judgement.....they are all lazy too....when i see them for the holidays the ones over 30 barely move from their chair...me and my wife run after our kids all day...they sit in their chairs and let theirs kids wreck the house.

i also agree you can give a poor person $100,000 and it would be gone in a year or less...thats proof and no one can argue with it.

i shouldnt have said Poor=dumb....dumb means handicapped to me....that was wrong of me..

Poor means Lazy and bad choices.....i believe thats true alot more than its false...i do see alot of hard working mexicans on my job sites....they are poor because of their situation of being illegals and the work being mindless.....but they are definately hard working poor....they also made a good choice by coming to America(from their point of view)........but from the people ive known in my personal life thats exactly what it is..lazy and bad choices...sorry

they are in America....the best country in the world...they can be ANYTHING....the problem is they dont want to be middle class or rich....because that takes more than they want to put into it.

handprop
12-06-2009, 09:14 PM
I really have to get something done tonight but this has become a most unique discussion.

Here is the question of the day:

Are you willing to take the steps necessary to garner success?

So what is success?

My answer: Being happy with the decisions you make in life.

For some the steps necessary are easy and have been born with an advantage, but for many it's a hard road to travel. This hard road creates pain and that's the biggest barrier to entry. When people see how tough it is I think they do a you turn.

And like Patrysha said, it's all about determination......so what's the issue?

Besides the select few who really got dealt a bad hand in life you will find most people lack drive.

Give them hope????? I always felt the were full of hope, why else would they be so willing to waste money on beer, smokes, cable tv, big car payments and video games. I would say when money gets spent that foolishly they must really have good hope for the future. After all they are willing to waste it when the rent is due...........and most of them have been late for years.

I can't begin to explain how many times I a renter has been behind 2-3 months and I say "forget it, let's just start with a clean slate and don't worry about the past, just pay me for this month.

Mike

Dan Furman
12-06-2009, 11:12 PM
Unbridled capitalism creates sweatshops and railroad barons, etc. It's never worked.

Like many here have stated, the best I can do is practice good business myself, and treat others well. I'm not going to worry about things I cannot control (like taxes, social programs, etc).

Spider
12-07-2009, 09:52 AM
Whatever traits you deem necessary to achieving success - Patrysha thinks optimism and desire, Mike thinks it's drive and dermination, Dave thinks making good decisions is necessary - but whatever it is, these traits have to be learned. Nobody is born with optimism, desire, drive, determination or the ability to make good decisions. I never saw a new-born baby that demonstrated any of these traits. Sure, one might cry more than another, one might laugh more, but all they are doing - all they can do - is react to their immediate environment.

The rest is learned.

It's learned, initially from their parents, then siblings, then friends, then school teachers, then employers - but by then it's too late for most people to correct their lack of education in optimism, desire, drive, determination and the ability to make good decisions, and other attributes that lead to success.

It's not impossible - and there is plenty of self-help, self-improvement, personal development material available. What is lacking now is the knowledge and understanding that this personal development stuff can make a difference. There is a general disbelief - even among successful people - that these attributes are skills that can be learned.

While it is a lack of optimism, desire, drive, determination and the ability to make good decisions, it is primarily a lack of understanding of the causes of the problem.

To bring this back to the topic of capitalisn, the failing of capitalism is that people who flounder in a capitalist environment have never been trained in the basics of how to live successfully within it. The success of capitalism is that those who were fortunate enough to learn optimism, desire, drive, determination and the ability to make good decisions can be sucessful with little real effort. And, in between these two extremes, there are all sorts of people who make a great efort and barely succeed and others who are successful in varying degrees having to work hard for their success.

But it all comes down to learning.

billbenson
12-07-2009, 10:13 PM
I think the key is education. Poor people tend to have poor education at home and in school. They haver parents that frequently don't put any importance on education and can't speak proper english. This often goes on for generations.

Take the autoworkers. A generation ago, it was a great job. You went to work, got a good pay check, got medical, retirement as well. Frequently doing simple repetitive tasks. What you usually didn't get was an education. Parents from this environment encouraged children to follow their footsteps and work and retire from GM or whoever instead of college. What was college good for. Life had been great and worry free for the parents and they saw no reason for their children not to follow their footsteps.

All lack the traits that spider mentioned in his post above. Both the poor and the poorly educated tradesman are going to function better in a socialistic society. And they make up for the majority of our population today.

The upper middle class on up are usually pushed by their family, peers, friends, society to move ahead. Make something of yourself. They function very well in a capitalistic society. The other groups don't know how to function in a capitalistic society by and large.

Huggy, you once said you did fine and "ain't got no higher education" or something like that implying that education has little or no value. I bet you have the drive to do what you do and the ability to do it because of education your parents gave you or some other outside influence in your past. You conduct your life as an educated person. That came from somewhere. Education starts at birth. I completely agree with spider.

What's that have to do with Capitalism? We've trained the bulk of our population to want socialistic principals. That guy over there has money, I deserve part of it. "I should make money for just showing up to work".

Perhaps thats the natural progression. A new country starts out. Settlers need to make money to survive and so they become independent farmers. Traveling salesman. Owner of a local grocery. Then the industrial revolution. The entrepreneurs buid things and hire people to do it. Unions get involved and the workers have so much leverage that they negotiate salary's and benefits that exceed the value of what they produce. Another source of labor comes along outside of the US borders and they loose their negotiating power. They implode.

Isn't that what we are watching happen now? People with limited skills and education loosing jobs because they are now in a competitive environment?

Maybe the destiny of a capatilist country is to slowly become socialistic. Desire to move ahead goes away. Progress slows. They slowly become ill because of a virus called socialism.

Had we kept our workers educated, perhaps we wouldn't be in the situation we are in or at least it wouldn't be as dramatic. Education is the only tool I see, and were two generations to late.

Look at what is happening today to many of the Latin American countries. They have a disproportionate number of poor people. In the case of Venezuela, the poor voted in a dictator because he said he will take from the rich and give to the poor. He did - well kind of. He took possession of oil refineries that belonged to international companies. He is talking of nationalizing banks. He ended term limits for the president. He has stolen all of the money from the private industry in the country because of promises to the poor.

I don't really see a bright long term future for the United States. The rich might be self serving, but the poor are as well.

Steve B
12-08-2009, 05:55 AM
"We've trained the bulk of our population to want socialistic principals. That guy over there has money, I deserve part of it. "I should make money for just showing up to work"."

I must have been absent that day in school. Seriously, I don't know anyone that got this training. I know there are a lot that may act or feel this way, but it's probably more human nature than "training".

Spider
12-08-2009, 10:27 AM
"We've trained the bulk of our population to want socialistic principals. That guy over there has money, I deserve part of it. "I should make money for just showing up to work"."
I must have been absent that day in school. Seriously, I don't know anyone that got this training. I know there are a lot that may act or feel this way, but it's probably more human nature than "training".Bill has it covered!

Steve is missing the point that what we call human nature is a result of training. Or, if you prefer, conditioning - which is only another way of delivering training.

The only things that are natural to humans is fear and motor-reflexes, like blinking. We physically train our children to walk. They may cry naturally but they learn to laugh. Desire, drive, determination, and all those other things we experience, and might be called "human nature," are learned or conditioned responses. If a child does not get that training/conditioning, it will grow up devoid of desire, drive, determination, and all or any of the other traits that are necessary to what we now call progress and success. A child so "conditioned" or trained would not fair well in a capitalist society.

handprop
12-08-2009, 02:11 PM
The ultimate problem with capitalism is capitalism itself, but I love it, it has allowed my family to live the life we do and I wouldn't trade it for anything. We can analyze anything to death and still have no correct answer because the answer is much more than one thing, including education. The most important trait I have is what my parents have shown me. When I was young they both showed me (not told me) that life is about discovery and anything is possible. It's been a hard and tough road for me to have what I have but everything I have is a result of an action, the action I created.

But keep in mind something important, it was always expected of me to over perform and I also had people around me who over performed. I guess you can say that is education but education can be linked to everything in life so again I have to say it's a combination of many things that add up to the whole. When I look at the big picture and look at others who struggle I'm pretty sure most of them will remain in the same spot there whole lives regardless of what they learn.

Mike

Steve B
12-08-2009, 02:42 PM
So exactly how and when did this training (or conditioning) take place? I must have missed it.

Spider
12-08-2009, 02:42 PM
...When I look at the big picture and look at others who struggle I'm pretty sure most of them will remain in the same spot there whole lives regardless of what they learn. I agree with everything you said, Mike, right up until you said, "regardless of what they learn."

Why would they remain in the same spot if they learned what you learned?

Spider
12-08-2009, 02:44 PM
So exactly how and when did this training (or conditioning) take place? I must have missed it.Of course you didn't miss it, Steve. All that you know - all that you are - you learned between the day you were born and now.

billbenson
12-08-2009, 03:55 PM
"We've trained the bulk of our population to want socialistic principals. That guy over there has money, I deserve part of it. "I should make money for just showing up to work"."

I must have been absent that day in school. Seriously, I don't know anyone that got this training. I know there are a lot that may act or feel this way, but it's probably more human nature than "training".

We are really talking semantics at this point steve. If a poor mother isn't working or has a menial job, is illiterate, and feels that society is structured such that she can't get ahead, she teaches this to her son, indirectly or directly. It can be indirectly watching mom or directly with mom instilling information and attitudes in her son's head.

Mom teaches her son to get as much as he can from the system, get free medical care by going to the emergency room and not paying when he breaks his arm etc... Mom is not saying "don't be like us, get an education; be somebody".

In short mom is teaching the child to use free services provided by the system rather than work for them. That's utilizing socializing programs provided by the govt or other organizations.

How do you think they are going to vote, for the capatilastic candidate or the one that says tax the rich and give the money to the poor?

So, in my book its both. Training to use the system rather than get ahead on your own, and human nature, doing what is best for me.

Steve B
12-08-2009, 04:20 PM
"Mom teaches her son to get as much as he can from the system, get free medical care by going to the emergency room and not paying when he breaks his arm etc... Mom is not saying "don't be like us, get an education; be somebody"."

I think you're making a big assumption here. My guess is that parents in this situation are similar to most parents throughout history and regardless of social condition. They probably want more for their children than they had. I'm guessing they even instill confidence that their child can do more with their lives than they did. Undoubtedly they may not know what to do to change the pattern of poverty, but I think it's just conveniant for people to think they are teaching their children (whether through actions or actual lessons) to remain poor so they can take advantage of the various welfare programs. I've known a fair amount of people who are considered poor (and often uneducated). The common theme seems to be just the opposite of what you are saying. They actually feel some shame for their failings and seem determined to encourage their children to get a better formal education and make a better life for themself. Of course, it just might be the people that I've met - but, it also seems consistent with parental instincts.

handprop
12-08-2009, 05:00 PM
Spider, that's an easy question to answer. You can show, teach, help, and instruct people all day long and very few will listen. answers are everywhere you turn but people still don't seek it out. I don't know why this is but it's true. This falls along the lines of psychology and that's not my specialty. Information is all around us but it takes effort, determination, and willpower to seek it out. It all available for a cheap price of admission but yet few have the follow through to do so.

Education is much to broad a term to be used as a solution in my opinion.

You can lead a horse to water but...........

Mike

Patrysha
12-08-2009, 05:54 PM
Even if poor mom was teaching these lessons, directly or indirectly, doesn't mean the kid is going to follow those lessons...

A lot of the way I am is directly because of decisions not to be like one parent or another in some way or another...things I said I'd never do when I grew up (of course there are those things I said I'd never do, but do...but that's a different story)

It's not simple.

But it's not hopeless.

Harold Mansfield
12-08-2009, 06:07 PM
Mom teaches her son to get as much as he can from the system, get free medical care by going to the emergency room and not paying when he breaks his arm etc... Mom is not saying "don't be like us, get an education; be somebody".

In short mom is teaching the child to use free services provided by the system rather than work for them. That's utilizing socializing programs provided by the govt or other organizations.


I have to disagree wholeheartedly with this. I grew up with, dated, hung out with, and went to school with kids on all sides of the coin in every race and ...outside of straight out criminals...I don't know too many parents that don't want their kids to be more, and have more than they did.

I had friends who's parents were autoworkers and friends who's parents were doctors and lawyers and the sentiment was the same...get an education.

Some of my friends parents used to tell us all of the time that they were the last generation that would find stability at an auto plant and those jobs won't be there for us when we grow up so we had better learn something and go to college.

Of course, since my mom actually worked for the Dept of Social Services, I know that there are 2nd and 3rd generation welfare families out there, but it's not like it used to be...first of all the benefits aren't the same anymore so very few people, if any, can survive on a lifetime of Government assistance.

I have friends who grew up on welfare and will shovel crap in a stable in order not to live like that as an adult. It disgusts them.

I have never met any parents that teach their kids to "work the system" but sometimes the apple doesn't fall far from the tree...it's just inevitable in some cases...not just with being and staying poor but all kinds of social behaviors as well.

Just because you are raised on ignorance doesn't man you'll be ignorant, however if you never see anything else and never get out...you are probably doomed.

I know people that have never left Detroit...EVER ! They can't imagine living in some of the places that I have or some of the things that I have done....I on the other hand can't imagine not having done them.

If you don't see the world, how will you ever know what is possible in it ? We are products of our environment. Your parents are a big influence but not the only ones that you have..may mother taught me well, but I also learned from teachers, professors, employers, neighbors, friends, relatives, co-workers and so on. I had a hand up sometimes..not necessarily financially but every little bit helps mold who we are...so we all have a responsibility to mold the next generation...not just sit back and blame..sometimes giving a kid a job will give him the confidence and knowledge to become something greater than he ever knew was possible.

I taught a buddy of mine how to put up a site using wordpress...he in turn taught his kid who got a "B" on a school project. Sometimes the smallest things can point someone in the right direction. I can imagine that if you never had any direction or no one ever took the time..it would be hard to rise above....how would you know any better ?

And then some people are just lazy....nothing you can do about that.

handprop
12-08-2009, 06:19 PM
This is one of those cases in life where you just can assume something about an entire group of people and expect to be accurate.

The one thing the country/world can do is try and create a path for people so they can succeed.

How does that saying go????? Give a man a fish.......teach a man to fish.

I'm pretty sure that was a Republican that said that!:eek::eek::eek::eek:

Oh wait, that was Jesus, oh well, i'm pretty sure he was a Republican also.

And here is where I get flamed.........................

Mike

billbenson
12-08-2009, 07:16 PM
Eborg, I'm making a broad generalization. As you suggest, there are a large number of exceptions.

I was in a sandwich joint in Miami once. I started talking to the girl next to me. She was a teacher. She was complaining about having to teach Latinos. She couldn't understand them. The thing is, her English was straight out of Deliverance. Aside from the fact that every other word was a vulgarity, she couldn't put a grammatically correct sentence together. When asked what she wanted on her sandwich she said "I take summo dos green things. She was complaining about not understanding Latinos speaking English when she couldn't speak proper English. And she was a teacher. Scary. I hope that was an isolated case.

The fact is that poor people will be far less likely to have good influences to teach them anything from the three R's to right and wrong. As you stated plenty do, but I speculate that it is far fewer than other sectors of our society.

I have a friend who grew up in an auto town. Not detroit, but somewhere up there, I forget. He relays a story much like what I described. His brothers worked in the auto industry. For whatever reason the family moved to Florida. One brother picked up auto air conditioning repair. The other works in WalMart.

The way my friend describes the attitude is that people are so accustomed to "working for the man" that the concept of self employment or working outside the auto industry doesn't exist. He says the people he knows have absolutely no clue how to find work or do anything other than simple labor in the auto industry.

My point is that a lot of these people do exist. Socialism is the better option for them. They have been conditioned that way. If that continues to grow, it will eat away at capitalism.

Again, I'm not saying all people in these segments of the population, but a disproportionate number. Its a hard hole to dig yourself out of.

Harold Mansfield
12-08-2009, 07:53 PM
Eborg, I'm making a broad generalization. As you suggest, there are a large number of exceptions.

I was in a sandwich joint in Miami once. I started talking to the girl next to me. She was a teacher. She was complaining about having to teach Latinos. She couldn't understand them. The thing is, her English was straight out of Deliverance. Aside from the fact that every other word was a vulgarity, she couldn't put a grammatically correct sentence together. When asked what she wanted on her sandwich she said "I take summo dos green things. She was complaining about not understanding Latinos speaking English when she couldn't speak proper English. And she was a teacher. Scary. I hope that was an isolated case.
I hope so too.


The fact is that poor people will be far less likely to have good influences to teach them anything from the three R's to right and wrong. As you stated plenty do, but I speculate that it is far fewer than other sectors of our society.
I think it's more about where you are, than what you have. Someone in rural Alabama is going to be at a big disadvantage when it comes to discovering other things and possibilities, but someone form Chicago just needs to venture out across town. There are still areas in this country without cable TV, Broadband internet access, and basic municipal plumbing..unless those kids go to college or join the military, they are going to be stuck where they are.



I have a friend who grew up in an auto town. Not detroit, but somewhere up there, I forget. He relays a story much like what I described. His brothers worked in the auto industry. For whatever reason the family moved to Florida. One brother picked up auto air conditioning repair. The other works in WalMart.

The way my friend describes the attitude is that people are so accustomed to "working for the man" that the concept of self employment or working outside the auto industry doesn't exist. He says the people he knows have absolutely no clue how to find work or do anything other than simple labor in the auto industry.

My point is that a lot of these people do exist. Socialism is the better option for them. They have been conditioned that way. If that continues to grow, it will eat away at capitalism.

Again, I'm not saying all people in these segments of the population, but a disproportionate number. Its a hard hole to dig yourself out of.

That same can be said for a farmer who has lost his land, or a wall street exec who only knows investment banking....I can't imagine either one of them even working at a Walmart.
But it is true what you said about conditioning, but I don't think that has anything to do with economics.

I still run across women in their 30's that have become so accustomed to their parents taking care of everything that they have to have relationships where their partner takes care of them and in between relationships, they don't have the basic skills to cope with the things in life we take for granted like calling a repair man or having the car serviced. They will never be a self supporting member of society...they will always need someone to take care of them. I know one that is 35 and her father still pays her rent and car insurance..and she has a job....I mean c'mon!

Conditioning..absolutely. Economics..not a chance. They were just never taught to do anything on their own and for themselves.
..and let's face it. Everyone is not on the same playing field when it comes to intelligence. Everyone can't be Gates, or you or even me. Someone has to bolt on the hoods and clean the stables, and some will always only be able to handle being a part of the crew and not the crew leader.

Steve B
12-08-2009, 08:10 PM
billbenson - I think you're mixing a couple things up.

Most people would think Henry Ford was a great capitalist (I do, at least). Where would he have been without his employees? You made it sound that anyone that doesn't desire to own their own business is better of in a socialist society. "people are so accustomed to "working for the man" that the concept of self employment or working outside the auto industry doesn't exist ... a lot of these people do exist. Socialism is the better option for them."

Even fast forward to a more modern industry - I'm pretty sure Bill Gates has a handful of employees that are needed to keep Microsoft going.

Capitalism needs people that will work for "the man", or "the woman". I don't see anything wrong with someone that has no clue about working outside of a simple labor job (as long as they show up to work and do a good job).

Blacktalon
12-08-2009, 09:43 PM
I've always looked at capitalism as the perfect demonstration of darwinism: Capitalism (nature) rewards the resourceful and punishes the lazy (socialism). Those who are more resourceful and tactful will survive.

Perhaps it's my personal disposition, but I loathe any government intervention - or any form of control for that matter. I should be able to do with what I have the way I deem best. People on Parliament Hill or Capitol Hill shouldn't have a say in what is considered "best" for me nor my family, friends, or colleagues.

Yes, basic government involvement is required or the simple things such as maintaining roads and the like, but they shouldn't go beyond that.

Kind of hard to state considering Canada is technically a socio-capitalist society.

That is my rant. Thank you and good night,


Blacktalon

Patrysha
12-08-2009, 10:32 PM
Socialism is the equivalent of laziness??

I don't think so.

The socialistic services that helped me get to adulthood in one piece and somewhat normal (yeah I know it's debatable at times) didn't lead me into a life of sloth and dependence.

If some kids end up reliving the cycle...isn't it still worth having for the ones who do break free of the cycle?

I'm not a fan of government intervention so much as a solid safety net that gives as many people the chance to move forward as it can.

Does it really cost that much in comparison to the alternatives?

Why is it better to build prisons & roads than fund a few safety net services?

Harold Mansfield
12-09-2009, 12:15 AM
I've always looked at capitalism as the perfect demonstration of darwinism: Capitalism (nature) rewards the resourceful and punishes the lazy (socialism). Those who are more resourceful and tactful will survive.

Perhaps it's my personal disposition, but I loathe any government intervention - or any form of control for that matter. I should be able to do with what I have the way I deem best. People on Parliament Hill or Capitol Hill shouldn't have a say in what is considered "best" for me nor my family, friends, or colleagues.

Yes, basic government involvement is required or the simple things such as maintaining roads and the like, but they shouldn't go beyond that.



People always say that, but it's just not possible. If all the Government did was maintain roads and then let everyone live and let live the country...every country would be in a state of continuous Chaos.

There would be no one to stop your neighbor from having weapons grade Anthrax.
Other countries would continuously attack our unprotected borders. We'd have no economy...those that know how to steal, would take everything from those of us who don't.
There would be no banking.
Credit.
No Money.
No standards for construction...buildings would literally collapse from unscrupulous cost cutters.
Pollution would choke most major cities and we would all be wearing respirators just to leave the house.
We'd have to boil water just to drink.
Just plugging in an electrical appliance would be taking your life in your hands.
Food would be unsafe to eat.
Over the counter medications (and prescription eds) would kill us.
Planes would fall from the sky either from hijackers, or just running into each other.
Your very cell phone would probably explode in your hand because there would be no consumer protection to make sure the batteries fit federal guidelines.
Childrens toys would be made with lead paint, and rabid dogs would roam the streets.

Everyone say's that the "Government" shouldn't make any decisions for me and I should be allowed to live and let live, but if that happened, most of us wouldn't make it past the age of 30. It would be worst than the Wild Wild West.
No rules..everyone doing what ever they felt like doing.

I feel very well capable of living and making my own decisions without harming others, but I don't trust the other 250 million people to do the same without killing me.

You can call it socialism all you want, but the Government with all of it's regulations and intrusions is the very reason that we aren't bringing out our dead once a week because of some new plague, or radiation spill.

For every Government intrusion that seems out of line or unfair, the "Government" does a million other things that keep you alive and able to make, grow and protect your money.

Every time I hear someone say No Government intervention or "Leave me alone", I always picture them home schooling their kids, living without electricity, and riding a horse to trade goods and services, using scrap metal as currency while dying of radiation poisoning or tuberculosis.

Spider
12-09-2009, 12:19 AM
...Why would they remain in the same spot if they learned what you learned?

Spider, that's an easy question to answer. You can show, teach, help, and instruct people all day long and very few will listen... Mike, I asked that question because I hoped you would see that if they learned what you learned they would accomplish what you accomplished.

Teaching people and showing them and instructing them is not the same as them learning. I'm sure you were taught lots of things you didn't learn, shown lots of things you didnt accept and instructed in lots of things you ignored or misinterpreted. We all do. But what we learn, what we are conditioned into, determines what we accomplish.

So anyone learning what you learned would perform as you have. And they may learn what you learned in a different way. Patrysha spoke of rejecting some lesson in order to not be like a parent. She learned something from that, even though what she learned was opposite to what was intended for her. Well, suppose the opposed was taught to you and you accepted that opposte learning, you and Patrysha would have learned the same thing - she by rejecting one lesson and you by accepting an opposite lesson.

You went on to say, Mike, that "Information is all around us but it takes effort, determination, and willpower to seek it out." You are not recognizing that making an effort, determination and willpower have to be learnt, too. If these people had learned those attributes to the same extent you did, they would access the other information just as you did.

The whole problem, as I see it, in this discussion, is that we are forgetting that we had to learn everything, (except fear and motor-reflexes) - we had to learn to learn. we had to learn to make an effort, we had to learn to be determined, etc. etc. before we could even start to learn the skills, which also had to precede learning the information with which to be successful. Anyone who does not learn the root basics at their mother's knee, cannot move ahead towards success. Success in business does not begin with Business 101 in college, it begins with learning and being encouraged to reach out for that baby-rattle within the first week or so of life.

Spider
12-09-2009, 12:29 AM
...And then some people are just lazy....nothing you can do about that.They learned that, too. Being lazy is just as much learned or conditioned as being active and driven.

Spider
12-09-2009, 12:49 AM
...For whatever reason the family moved to Florida. One brother picked up auto air conditioning repair. The other works in WalMart....We learn things from a miriad of sources, and different people can learn different things from the same occurrences. It all depends on what else they have learned from other sources - in an endless matrix of possibilities.

Bill's tale of two brothers reminds me of this one.

A man was in jail for murder - it was the third murder he had committed. He was a thief, a drunk and a drug addict. He had two sons, one was also in jail for attempted murder, was also a convicted thief and a regular trouble-maker. The second son was a model citizen. He was married, had two lovely children, was the manager of a sizeable company and a respected member of his city council.

When each son was asked why they thought they had turned out as they had, they both answered in the same way: they both said, "With a father like that, what else could I have become?"

Patrysha
12-09-2009, 01:37 AM
When each son was asked why they thought they had turned out as they had, they both answered in the same way: they both said, "With a father like that, what else could I have become?"

Nice Tony Robbins swipe (although maybe he wasn't the first to put it in print...he's good at swiping too :-))

And the thing is...what is learned can be unlearned with the right circumstances.

I know a man who was a rotten brat by the time he was 14 when he committed his first armed robbery...married his first wife because she was a material witness in a crime he had committed and he was working on a way out of it...went on to pimping and crack cocaine...

Till he was so down and out and broken that he called someone...who found a way to get him into rehab and turn his life around when he was in his early 30s.

Now in his early 40's he's settled with a good job and a family...contributing to society and kind of grateful that the justice system is a out of whack (he only spent time in jail for things he didn't actually do and never for some of the really rotten things he did)

There are probably a million stories like that out there.

(And this wasn't even a case of poor! Just a bad attitude and a destructive course that was set young)

Spider
12-09-2009, 10:21 AM
Nice Tony Robbins swipe (although maybe he wasn't the first to put it in print...he's good at swiping too :-))
And the thing is...what is learned can be unlearned with the right circumstances....

...There are probably a million stories like that out there.
(And this wasn't even a case of poor! Just a bad attitude and a destructive course that was set young)That's a TR story? I've listened and read a lot of Tony Robbins' material and never heard him tell that one - still, it's been in my repertoire for a long time and I don't remember where I heard it, so, maybe.

Certainly, Patrysha, such bad attitudes and lack can be corrected. The whole point of this discussion, as I have been trying to express it, is that people in this state cannot just suddenly have drive, determination and a will to succeed - they must first undo the damage that has been done before they can move onto a positive way of thinking.

Now, here is the really difficult part - and, as far as I can tell, totally misunderstood in this discussion - it is not possible for an underachiever to do this on their own. Yes, I said "impossible." You might know how to save someone from drowing, but if you are drowning, you cannot save yourself! Assistance has to come from outside yourself. And an underachiever is lucky if they find the inspiration they need to change in a book or a tv program. Most need the interference of somebody outside themselves - and being the sort of person they are, they probably have no friends or contacts who could push them in that direction. In the worst cases, the state prison system is charged with doing it, but the inmates are the worst cases and are thus least likely to be helped. The rest - those not bad enough to brush with the law, but bad enough to stay impoverished - fail.

Patrysha
12-09-2009, 11:45 AM
That's a TR story? I've listened and read a lot of Tony Robbins' material and never heard him tell that one - still, it's been in my repertoire for a long time and I don't remember where I heard it, so, maybe.

Yeah, I only connected it at all because I found a copy of Awaken the Giant Within at the used book store a while back and have been re-reading it.

And I agree, there has to be an outside force that lights a path out of the darkness. Something to start triggering the belief and hope that it doesn't have to be that way.

Spider
12-09-2009, 01:22 PM
Yeah, I only connected it at all because I found a copy of Awaken the Giant Within at the used book store a while back and have been re-reading it.... Really? It's in ATGW? I am constantly referring to that book! What page is it on?

Patrysha
12-09-2009, 01:29 PM
Really? It's in ATGW? I am constantly referring to that book! What page is it on?

First page of chapter 4 (page 73 in the copy I have - Paperback, First Fireside edition from '92)

Spider
12-09-2009, 02:15 PM
So, it is! Funnily enough, my book is so well-used the spine has broken at that point and the first three chapters are separated from the rest of the book - it fell open at p.1. ch.4. as I took it from the shelf!

I guess I did get it from TR, after all.

handprop
12-09-2009, 02:38 PM
Spider, so not only do you copy me but Tony R. as well? Hmmm.......LOL

I agree with you but the fact is it will never happen. To convert the population as a whole and increase the % of people who have a capitalistic attitude even by a few percent just wont happen.

Think of how many people have bought the whole TR series are still do nothing.....ya ya ya, I know, it all comes down to education, but that's still to broad a solution to really fix the problem.

At some point you have to admit it comes down to the "human condition" I suppose. I still say, "You can lead a horse to water but............

Harold Mansfield
12-09-2009, 02:54 PM
If everyone was "go getter" and had the drive and capability to be the CEO of Fortune 500 Companies...who would do the actual work ?
For some people, working in a factory is what they want to do. Many auto workers take pride in creating a product that people need and want. I don't know one carpenter that isn't proud of his work, and some people actually work in stables because they love horses.

Everyone doesn't want to run Disney, and there are many people in our society that live modestly because they believe in the work that they do...take school teachers for instance...it's a thankless job that doesn't pay well and in some areas it's downright dangerous...but for those of use that went to public schools, or have kids in them...if it was all about the money...who would have taught us? I don't know about you, but my parents had to work during the day.

Success means something different for everyone.

One of my friends isn't as educated as most, and is a hard worker. He will never run his own million dollar company, but he has a nice home, well mannered kids that get good grades, a lovely wife and he pays his bills on time. He even coaches his kids Little League team....I definitely consider him a success and he has risen above what he had growing up with hard work and dedication.

Capitalism has definitely allowed him to provide for his family and build a nice life, so with that I say Capitalism is alive and well and we all benefit from it no matter what level we are on the ladder, and even the most successful capitalist benefit greatly from the socialist side of Government as I stated in my previous post.

Capitalism wouldn't be possible without some socialism. It actually depends on it. If the government didn't keep many aspects of society in check and in some ways even supported, capitalist wouldn't have the opportunity to succeed.

Spider
12-09-2009, 03:03 PM
Spider, so not only do you copy me but Tony R. as well? Hmmm.......LOLMike, I'm good but I don't know it all. So I copy some people who have good information to share. And I do share a lot of what Anthony Robbins has to say because what he has to say is good information. Note for you - if you have something good to share, I will pass it on.



...At some point you have to admit it comes down to the "human condition" I suppose. I still say, "You can lead a horse to water but............Admit? That is precisely what I have been saying all along - that it comes down to the human condition. I have gone a step further, though, adding that the human condition is learned. Nurture, not nature.

If one individual's condition has them pointed in the wrong direction, they have to turn around first before they start their journey. Starting the journey while facing in the wrong direction can lead to dire consequences. A petty shoplifter with drive and determination is likely to end up robbing banks. They have to turn themselves around to face the right direction before they attempt any drive and determination. Getting turned around is the most difficult part, unfortunately. It is the part most people cannot accomplish.

handprop
12-09-2009, 11:26 PM
That was meant to be funny