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KristineS
11-24-2009, 12:41 PM
This seems to be my week for what feels, to me anyway, like curmudgeonly posts, but I've been noticing something for a while now and it's bothering me. I'm on a few forums other than this one, mostly for work, and there are a lot of small business owners on these forums. They often ask for reviews of their websites, promotional material etc. Sadly, it is becoming increasingly rare to find work that is properly spelled, grammatical and properly capitalized, even, in some cases, if the work is done by a professional. I see the same thing in the posts that people write on these forums. Some of them are almost illiterate.

What worries me the most is that the people asking for reviews and writing the posts seem to feel that the level of writing they're producing is acceptable. Are my standards just too high? Have we all become some used to seeing acronyms and odd usage that most of us just don't see it or don't care any more?

Patrysha
11-24-2009, 01:24 PM
Well if your standards are too high, then mine are too!

It bugs me when small business owners think cousin Joey can put together a website or brochure and it will be just fine. In my opinion that shows a certain level of disrespect to the customers. It's like they are saying "You aren't worth it. I am not going to take the time to do it right, I am not going to pay to do it right, but you better respond to my message."

Another problem is that with the low barrier to to entry into online business, anyone can call themselves a professional. So having a professional doing your site doesn't necessarily mean they are any good.

I used to see this often in the work at home world, where someone would learn how to use FrontPage or Dreamweaver to put together a site or two - and they were perfectly fine hobby sites - and then turn around and offer web design as a service to other work at home moms...and none of them knew any better.

Dan Furman
11-24-2009, 01:43 PM
Another problem is that with the low barrier to to entry into online business, anyone can call themselves a professional. So having a professional doing your site doesn't necessarily mean they are any good.


I think this is a big part of it.

I just wrote a blog post the other day about how I feel web design is actually getting worse. The rise of CMS and such has lowered standards. There are a billion blocky, cookie-cutter websites out there that can't even put a space between bullet points. But they are cheap. And easy.

I'll bet today that not even half of people who call themselves web developers / web designers can code a decent page in notepad.

But you know something? I'm busier than ever right now. People who are serious about business understand - you aren't getting website conversions without a decent design and good copy. Both of which 99% of people can't do themselves.

Steve B
11-24-2009, 01:49 PM
There is a definite generational thing involved here too. They don't teach spelling anymore the way they used to. My elementary school kids only have spelling tests a few weeks of the year. I remember having them every single friday until 10th grade. And handwriting is a thing of the past. One of my employees was getting scholarship offers to Ivy League schools and he can't write or read in cursive.

Dan Furman
11-24-2009, 02:43 PM
There is a definite generational thing involved here too. They don't teach spelling anymore the way they used to. My elementary school kids only have spelling tests a few weeks of the year. I remember having them every single friday until 10th grade. And handwriting is a thing of the past. One of my employees was getting scholarship offers to Ivy League schools and he can't write or read in cursive.

I'm not so sure these things have a lot to do with it. Cursive is more of a generational style than anything. And spelling... I dunno (dunno isn't even a word). I got C's and D's in English, never took college English until I was 35, and even then, never progressed beyond 102. And I write for a living.

I'm not saying education doesn't matter, but you're talking about "proper" English instead of communication. Communication, clearly making your case, and being understood are important. If your audience wants cursive, then yes, you'd better write in cursive. But I know for a fact proper English doesn't matter so much in business writing. And you don't even need to know how to spell, as the computer will do it for you (but you still should know the difference between to, too, and two - so yes, some "proper english" education matters)

But even then, does it really? I recall a recent presentation by a marketing manager. In it, he was bemoaning the internet-speak and slang the younger generation uses as a bad thing. This, after he had a slide up that mentioned "B2B".

cbscreative
11-24-2009, 05:15 PM
While I get quickly irritated with many web sites, and finding good ones is more rare than normal, there is a side of me that loves it that way. When I do web sites and other materials for clients, the stuff they are competing with is so bad that their's stand out in a big way. A polished gem will always stand out in a sea of rusty tin cans.

May the lower standards continue,,,I (like Dan and others here) only need a few smarter business owners to stay busy.

vangogh
11-24-2009, 05:22 PM
Another problem is that with the low barrier to to entry into online business, anyone can call themselves a professional. So having a professional doing your site doesn't necessarily mean they are any good.

I think that's really the answer. And it's not even people calling themselves professions designers or copywriters. It's simply that anyone can build a website or write copy for a website and they do. Build a site or writing copy is easy. Doing either well is a lot less easy.

The lack of grammatical and spelling skills could also be a factor, though one more to do with youth and who's probably behind those websites than a lack of teaching in schools. If anything it's more a lack of maturity than a lack of spelling skills.

KristineS
11-24-2009, 05:33 PM
Lower barriers to entry and the DIY mentality were two of the things I thought of, so I'm glad someone else mentioned them. I guess what gets me is the fact that people seem to feel that "o.k." will work. You wouldn't put up a half assed house, why would you put up a half assed web site. Do people still believe that simply having a site or a blog or whatever is enough?

Also, do people still think that they can't be found on the Internet? I've seen practically illiterate posts on other forums, which would certainly lead me to rethink hiring someone if I did research on a potential job candidate and found those posts. Do people not think of that, or do they just think it won't matter?

Patrysha
11-24-2009, 06:28 PM
Do people not think of that, or do they just think it won't matter?

I think that they have no clue that it should matter so have no inkling that someone would actually check that sort of thing.

And yes, many of them do think that simply having a site or blog is enough. They think they are so special that simply being there is enough. And that their customers are different, so all the other little details just don't matter to their project.

Dan Furman
11-24-2009, 07:25 PM
Do people still believe that simply having a site or a blog or whatever is enough?

An astonishing amount of people think that yes, it's enough.

KristineS
11-25-2009, 08:28 AM
An astonishing amount of people think that yes, it's enough.

That's really kind of sad when you think about it. I do see that sort of attitude all the time, the "I'll put up a web site and hordes of people will flock to it" attitude, but I can't believe that people can still be so unrealistic. I can see believing that when the Internet was first in use, but now it just seems so obvious that simply having a site isn't enough.

Dan Furman
11-25-2009, 12:44 PM
It's a question of dollars, really. Most people who get into a web type business do so because it is cheap. Typically, for a general site without whiz-bang effects, I cost more than the designer. Sometimes a LOT more. Most small businesspeople give pause to that.

But I don't mind at all - they really aren't my client anyway. It's kind of a circle, really. My client is someone who will spend money on a nice site, and spend money to get people there. My client has a PPC budget, or at least has some plan to get people to their site. They come to me when they have qualified visitors, but no sales. And I fix that.

KristineS
11-25-2009, 12:47 PM
You do have a point Dan. I know a lot of people who are looking to put up a web site for two cents and a stick of gum. They think simply having something is the key to financial success and don't seem to understand that there is a pretty wide gap between "something" and "something good".

Maybe it all comes down to education. You won't convince everyone, but the more people you can reach with the message that "something" isn't good enough, the more potential customers you can create.

cbscreative
11-25-2009, 01:54 PM
It's a question of dollars, really. Most people who get into a web type business do so because it is cheap. Typically, for a general site without whiz-bang effects, I cost more than the designer. Sometimes a LOT more. Most small businesspeople give pause to that.

I suspect that is somewhat of a Catch 22 for web designers, but what they either don't realize or don't care about is, they inadvertantly set clients up to fail. If they bring in a good copywriter, it ups the price and they might lose the sale to a cheaper designer. I'm finding the common practice with web people is they require the client to supply the copy. This sort of absolves the designer from being responsible for it.

I think the problem is most likely that most web designers aren't any better at selling than the people hiring them. That statement may not be very popular with web designers, but if they can't sell the value of good web copy as part of the package, then how are they going to build a web site that really meets the needs of their clients? I can't fault them for not being writers, but if they don't hook up with someone who is, then they can only build sites that look pretty.

So call me a hardnose for saying that, but business is tough, and the Internet is not kind to poorly written web sites.

vangogh
11-25-2009, 09:59 PM
I'm finding the common practice with web people is they require the client to supply the copy. This sort of absolves the designer from being responsible for it.

I think that's because web designers simply aren't copywriters. I don't think it's about absolving responsibility, just two different things. Should a web designer also help the client create a business model? Should designer help build the product? Also in my experience most clients won't then pay a web designer to write the copy, so it's a lot more work for no pay.

It's one thing to offer some advice and make the suggestion, but there's only so much a web designer should be expected to do. Ultimately the client has to take responsibility for their own business.

Dan Furman
11-25-2009, 10:23 PM
It's one thing to offer some advice and make the suggestion, but there's only so much a web designer should be expected to do. Ultimately the client has to take responsibility for their own business.

I agree. I get very little to no work through web designers (not that I expect any), because it does make the price way too high. Totally understandable.

And I would expect the same if I offered someone else's design w/ my writing for a higher price - it just doesn't work. Like you said, two different things.

vangogh
11-25-2009, 10:58 PM
Dan I've recommended to some clients that they hire a copywriter and even given out your email at times. I leave it up to them though. People don't come to me for copywriting. They come to me for design/development. If I think they could stand to have better copywriting I'll recommend it, but it doesn't make sense to tie it into my work unless a client specifically asked for that.

That said I have written or rewritten copy for clients, depending on the situation.

cbscreative
11-28-2009, 06:56 PM
Obviously, the place where the web designer's responsibility begins and ends is subject to a lot of debate.

"Should a web designer also help the client create a business model?"

This is just one of a ton of questions you could ask. I believe the answer is no. But, the web designer cannot be expected to really do justice to a web site without knowing something about the business model. So while they are not responsible to create it, I believe they should make a point of knowing what it is.

This discussion is really about the web copy and not the business model, so I'll raise these points for consideration. The web designer does not need to be a copywriter. I think everyone can understand that this is a different skill set and there is no fault in being good at one and not being any good at the other.

However, do you think there are situations where the web designer realizes they have been given bad web copy and they choose to just go with it because they feared losing the web design job? Based on my observation, I believe the answer is yes. If the web designer knew this in advance, then who is really at fault?

Sure, it's not their responsibility to write the copy without pay, that's ridiculous, but I believe they do have a responsibility to raise the issue. Maybe I'm just obstinate, but I'd rather lose a job than take it just to fill the schedule.

vangogh
11-29-2009, 01:42 AM
without knowing something about the business model.

Knowing about it yes, but expected to be responsible for it no. I realize you said that in your post, but I wanted to repeat it.

As for the copy it is a different skill set. Copywriting is a skill that certainly benefits a web designer, but... A web designer is there to design the website. Some might not even build the site. What it comes down to is the person or company being honest about the skills they possess. One web designer may also be a good programmer and can develop a custom shopping cart. Another might not be able to work on the shopping cart.

Yes I do think some designers will accept bad copy because they don't want to lose the job. Some friends will also tell you your copy is wonderful when they think it's bad. Ultimately as a web designer you agree to do certain work for a certain amount of money. That's the only thing you should be held responsible for and the only thing you should be expected to do.

I think a web designer who thinks their client's copy is bad should find a way to let the client know the copy needs improvement. You can recommend someone to work on the copy or even offer to work on it yourself. But the client has the final say. If you advise a client that their copy needs improvement and the client insists on using it you can advise again more strongly, but at some point you have to accept that it's the client's site and they can do what they want with it.

It's really not the designer's responsibility to raise the issue in my opinion. I think a good web designer should raise the issue, but I won't go so far as to say it's their responsibility to. It's not about losing a job to me, but rather that people need to be responsible for themselves.

Spider
11-29-2009, 09:34 AM
From following this discussion and hearing what has been said in these forum about what the website design can be expected to do, I think website designers need to be more clear in what they say. If I understand this thread correctly,

design (ie. layout. color)
copywriting (the text)
business model (how the client runs his business)
target audience (prospective customers)

... are all separate things and only the first - the layout and colors - are the responsibility of the designer.

It seems to me that most of the performance of the website comes from the other elements - the copy, the business model and the target audience. The layout and colors would play - I suggest - a relatively minor part in how the website performs. Thus, the idea that a good web design is crucial to an effective website hardly holds true.

I would single out the navigation, which I expect to be the responsibility of the designer. That is essential to a well-performing website, I think. But when designers decry those who only create a pretty site while claiming no responsibility for anything other than color and layout, this leaves me bafled.

How would a "good" designer single himself out from a designer who only creates a pretty site?

vangogh
11-29-2009, 12:03 PM
Frederick a good web designer will take all of the things you mentioned into account when designing the site. I think all of us web designers would agree. But...

Why would you expect a web designer to develop your business model. That's the business owners job. As a designer I'm not going to tell you what kind of business to go into and how to produce your widgets at what cost and what they should be sold for, etc. I'll want to know all those things to design the site, but I won't set up your business.

Why would a designer decide who the target market for your product is. That should come when you're developing your business model. Again I'd want to know who your target market is to design the site for them, but you need to do the research to determine who your market is.

Copywriting is not the same skill as web design. Some people can do both very well. Most can't. Would you go to your web designer for an investment strategy on which stocks to buy. Maybe your web designer is very good with the stock market, but you wouldn't expect he or she is going to be helping you with your investment portfolio when you ask to have a site designed. Same thing with copywriter. A web designer is not a copywriter. Two different skills. Being skilled in one doesn't mean you're skilled in the other.

I think there's a misconception that your web designer is supposed to take care of anything that has to do with your site. A web designer is responsible for designing your website. That's not just about making it pretty, it's about making it usable. That's going to include the navigation and organizing your content and many, many things beyond making it look pretty. Looking pretty is simply aesthetics. Aesthetics are a part of design, but design is about a lot more.

The majority of web designers will also develop the site so it moves from a design image to a live working site. There are still designers who will only create the design images which you would take to someone else to write the code that will become your pages. I think most web designers understand that you are going to want a live site and so it makes sense from a business standpoint to offer that.

As competition in the web design industry has increased many of us have added new skills that we can offer clients. For example I've learned a lot about search engines over the years and understand how to build a site to maximize its perform in search engines. That doesn't then mean if you have me design a site your SEO is done and your site will be #1 for everything. What it does mean is that where seo and web design overlap I would have you covered. Your pages will probably rank better than if you had gone to a web designer without seo knowledge and if you choose to hire an seo firm later they'll likely charge you less since they won't need to rebuild your site. If you decide to do your own seo you'd also know much of the technical details are already taken care of.

Also knowing seo I could do some seo work for a client, assuming they're willing to pay me for the work. I happen to think I'm a capable writer and could write copy for many sites as well. That doesn't mean I'll write your copy when I design your site though. You'd have to pay me to write that copy the same as you would have to pay if you hired a copywriter individually.

A successful website comes from a collaboration between different people with different skills. People who design websites tend to have quite a few of those different skills. They might not all have the same skills across the same sets, but you'll find web designers who are also great writers or great marketers or great programmers, etc. Not necessarily all of them though.

The question we've been talking about here (at least to me) is what your web designer is responsible for doing. They're only responsible for doing what they agree to when you both agree on the project. One might agree to write your copy and another might not. If you want me to develop your business model, research your target market, create your content, promote your site, etc. I'm going to do the smart thing and take you out of the equation and run the business myself. There's more money in it for me that way, especially if you're asking me to do all the work.

Spider
11-29-2009, 02:51 PM
VG - I agree wholeheartedly with your first four paragraphs. I wasn't suggesting that a website designer should do those other things (copywriting, etc.) My question was about the general expressions that a good design was so important to a "successful" website, followed by expressions that a good designer was different from a designer who only produces a pretty site. The good designers seemed to be avoiding responsibility for all the things that would make a website successful. I saw a disconnect and wanted to give the good designers here an opportunity to clarify that.

In your 5th paragraph, VG, you touch on "many, many things beyond making it look pretty" and they are what I am asking about. I got the navigation one, missed the content organisation, and still wonder about the rest. What are they?

You seemed to include...

design (color and layout)
navigation
content organisation
coding (working site.) Maybe.

...but further excluded...

SEO (except where design and SEO overlap) - along with copywriting, business model, etc. already noted.


What are the "many, many things beyond making it look pretty" that a good designer does take responsibility for other than the 3 other items you mention?

Dan Furman
11-29-2009, 04:52 PM
How would a "good" designer single himself out from a designer who only creates a pretty site?

Very interesting question. I'll give my slant first.

For example, I generally offer (for free) navigation / page order / etc help with my services. I feel it's part of my responsibility to not only write the info, but to present the content in a logical fashion that flows. This seperates me from others who can just write pretty prose (which really has nothing to do with good copywriting anyway.)

I honestly think, on the whole, a professional copywriter (who should be skilled in presenting info/marketing) should be more responsible for the presentation/flow of the content than a designer.

To me, a good designer should be responsible for making a pretty and easy to use/navigate site. In other words, I'll want the designer to choose where the navigation bar goes. But I want to fill it with page titles.

vangogh
12-02-2009, 10:48 AM
Frederick it's a difficult question to answer because there are so many things that go into a successful site. Also the people who design and build them often have different skills and so will offer a different set of services.

One other thing to consider is how much is the client willing to pay for their site. You're likely not going to get the same amount of work paying $1500 as you would if you paid $3000. You should still get a certain basic level of design/development at the lower price, but what is included in that certain basic level.

That can be hard to define too since each project is different. For example I would expect to organize the client's content in creating the site as part of my job, but I have many clients who already have ideas about how they want their content organized. There are even some people who specialize in just that. The field is called information architecture and if you were developing a large site (say on the level of Microsoft) you would likely hire a company just to do the information architecture which may or may not be the company that does the actual design. On a smaller job (the level for most of us) your web designer will probably do the information architecture or at least make suggestions about it. Like I said many clients will come to me with their own ideas about how the content should be structured. And some sites will have only a few pages and there's really nothing to organize.

Ultimately I think the answer to your question will be your web designer is responsible for whatever it is you and your designer agree to.

I know that's dancing around your question so I want to try to answer it better. I think to do that we have to define a few parameters. We'll say you as a client are a small business developing a small site. Let's say it's no more than 20 pages to start. We'll also assume your web designer is an individual or a small company with less than 10 employees.

Let's use a very specific example. Let's say you came to me to design your site. Here's what I would do.

I'm going to point you to page on my site so you can see my design process (http://www.vanseodesign.com/design/process/) to save space in typing it here. You can see the process goes through several steps

Information Gathering
Site Architecture
Visual Design
Site Development
Testing and Launch

The details of each are in the page I linked to, but even then understand some of those details are project dependent. For example I mention keyword research as part part of information gathering. I'll do that if you pay me to do that, but if you don't want to pay for that research...

I'm not sure if that answers your question about what a designer takes responsibility for, but hopefully it comes close. I think a designer takes your information about the site, spends some time researching your industry and market, and designs how your site will look, be organized, and function. From there they take the design images and develop them into a working website.

Everything else is the stuff of how they separate themselves from other designers.

Using myself as an example I've spent considerable time learning how search engines work and how to optimize a site for them. Some aspects of search engine optimization I will do as part of designing and developing your site. It doesn't take me any longer to develop your code in a way that makes it easy for search engine spiders to crawl as it would to develop the code in a way that makes it difficult for search engines to crawl. While I won't write your content without an additional fee, I likely will write page titles when creating pages unless you've given me specific page titles to use.

Throughout the process and throughout our relationship I'll offer ideas and suggestions for how to make the site better. Call it limited free consulting as part of the designer/client relationship. I'll still defer to you as client since it's your site and business and it's ultimately your decision.

I separate myself from other designers based on my skills. Another being WordPress. I've worked extensively with it and know it very well. Another designer/developer might not, but they might have worked extensively with a different content management system.

I hope that answers your question or at least comes close. Again I don't think there's a specific answer. It really comes down to what you as a client want, what skills your designer/developer has, and what you're willing to pay for. Every project is unique.

Spider
12-02-2009, 11:27 AM
Excellent reply, VG! I was a little worried that you (and others) were excuding so much that I figured was essential to a successful site and leaving the appearance that your "included in the fee" work was barebones and not as relevant to a site's success as had been stated. Now I can see otherwise.

Dan's explanation of his role was also very helpful.

To some extent, it's like asking a project manager what he does? The implication being that all the "work" is done by other people and the PM is not very essential. Until one tries to do the same thing with the conductor of an orchestra - remove the conductor and then see just how essential he is to the music!

I understand better now and I hope others reading this later will be better informed as to a website designer's role.

Thank you.

vangogh
12-02-2009, 06:21 PM
Glad you liked the reply. I wish I didn't have to keep giving the "it depends" answer a lot in regards to web design/development, but a website is such a general term that it's hard to define what goes into it without talking about the specific site.

I think anyone looking to hire a person or company to design and develop a site for them really needs to investigate what that person or company will do. It's why I always recommend taking some time to learn as much as you can about what makes for a successful website even if you don't plan on building one yourself. It'll help you when hiring to know some basics. And remember not ever designer will offer exactly the same services. I can offer some seo related things because I've spent the time learning seo. Another designer may not have that same knowledge and so won't offer the the same. On the other hand I'm not a programmer. I can customize someone else's program, but I'm probably not the go to person if you needed a custom shopping cart for example. Of course I'd let you know that upfront and let you know that I could customize an open source cart.

Do you mind if I flip the conversation a little and ask what kinds of things you expect a web designer/developer to do for you when hiring him or her to build you a site? I'm mostly just curious, but there might be some things you'd be looking for that myself and others could easily do. We just don't realize it's something you want or expect.

Spider
12-02-2009, 11:36 PM
...Do you mind if I flip the conversation a little and ask what kinds of things you expect a web designer/developer to do for you when hiring him or her to build you a site? I'm mostly just curious, but there might be some things you'd be looking for that myself and others could easily do. We just don't realize it's something you want or expect.It was only that I was reading a lot of exclusions being described and not much in the way of inclusions. If you had asked me to list what I thought was essential for a website to be "successful" (after we had done the rounds of defining 'successful'!), I would have listed the things you all were excluding. And that had me womdering what essential stuff was left that a designer would do, other than make it look pretty!

But, then, I have no idea what an orchestra's conductor does that makes his part so essential! Wave his arms about so all the musicians keep time? It's a little more than that, obviously, but what does he actually DO to make what he does successful? Likewise for the website designer.

It was an academic exercise - and to not leave this thread so that later readers think website designers don't really do much because they have denied responsibility for 99% of it!

vangogh
12-02-2009, 11:56 PM
Oh got'cha. I know I excluded a few things along the way. Part of that was the way the question was phrased. I think it was along the lines of what is a web designer responsible for. I think it was something like that. Forgive me for not looking.

The key word for me was responsible. I've mentioned I do some seo when designing. I wouldn't call that a responsibility of a web designer, though I would suggest all web designers learn some seo to make themselves more valuable.

greenoak
12-05-2009, 06:41 AM
the trouble i see as a buyer is that everybody offering services so easily presents themselves as experts..and we small businesses can see there are bad results all around..and some at real high prices.... .so small businesses have a hard time making an intelligent judgement....... .just as you would have no way to easily tell if my furniture or antique bottles are really as represented.....
.. the world now is nothing like the old days when in a small town, like where i live, you knew peoples track record,, you knew who could do a good job and who was all talk... thats a big change...

when i make a decision in a field im not tuned into i try to look at another small businesses finished product or hopefully a real good report on a job....
in our town several big professional places, who i have to guess paid a lot, have very poor sites...its kind of amazing...
.
there is so much fraud and b.s. out there...and we all know it.. a good writer in college could make a beautiful sales pitch... but so what....and a cool 8th grader knows more about the web than fabulous beauty salon owner who could use and gladly pay for a great site....

i see another thing that hurts..which is kind of what vg was talking about....when a business goes for a website with a bad business idea and then tells everybody their website is all wrong..or the web doesnt work...
.but then some marketers make it sound like the right marketing can make about any idea go. imho that is so wrong....
. i hardly know anyone who is selling well on line in my area of the market...... im going to have to see a lot more success before i would really go for it....
till then im going to stay the way we are now ....with everything done inhouse ....it seems like our web produces and supports a whole lot of off line sales ..and i hear good buzz about it in the store every week..... and we come up high on google in lots of things...which i dont understand at all.... i think we are organic...
i like this discussion and i think i probably do blur copywriting,web design and marketing....because to me, since we do it all, its kind of one big thing ....with the parts intertwined......this discussion helps in case anyone ever needs just one of the services....
as usual im open to someone local who could target my customer right.... and come up with a marketing plan, including copywriting and with the right visuals.... if he skimmed over figuring out the right visuals i would keep looking...
ann

vangogh
12-06-2009, 11:29 AM
the trouble i see as a buyer is that everybody offering services so easily presents themselves as experts..and we small businesses can see there are bad results all around..and some at real high prices.... .so small businesses have a hard time making an intelligent judgement....... .just as you would have no way to easily tell if my furniture or antique bottles are really as represented.....

True. Ultimately I think we all have to be responsible for the choices we make and that includes who we decide to hire or buy from. It's one reason I'm always suggesting people spend some time learning what they can about websites and what makes them successful. You don't have to learn how to write the code for your site, but you should at least understand that someone has to write that code and that the code behind your site does play a part in your site's success.

It's also why you should never jump into these hires and some purchases. It's a good idea to ask questions get to know the people you're going to hire and build even a small relationship with them before hiring. At some point you are going to have to trust the people you hire, whether that's a web designer, a copywriter, or a person you hire in house to sweep the floors at night.

One advantage we all have in this as small businesses is that we usually have to do it all out of necessity in the beginning when starting our businesses. That gives us the opportunity to learn about many different aspects of running a business so we at least know something about what parts we're going to hire someone else to do.

Dan Furman
12-06-2009, 06:55 PM
the trouble i see as a buyer is that everybody offering services so easily presents themselves as experts

True.

For me, this is why I have a nice website (and not a homemade one). This is why I spend the money on the BBB. This is why I wrote two books (believe me, it's not for the $$). This is why I incorporated (because, like it or not, "inc." is seen as more prestigious than "dba".) Etc.

To me, this helps set me apart from the person who's all talk. And there are a LOT of those.

greenoak
12-06-2009, 07:34 PM
right...and thats why i like to put...same location since 1978....and we are inc as well...
as a small business im always responsible for my decisions/lol...i pay!!!!..
..but for many of us to be expected to come close to understanding what you really do is not very likely....
i cant tell how you do it but i can tell if a site navigates easily and if it looks inviting.... and how fast and easy things happen.... i hate having to go 3 places/clicks to see the first interesting thing...
i heard about our site and facebook and our email newsletters quite a few times today in the store.... we were swamped...
ann

vangogh
12-07-2009, 10:43 AM
i can tell if a site navigates easily and if it looks inviting.... and how fast and easy things happen

Which is one reason why design is important. It helps build trust and authority with potential customers/clients.


as a small business im always responsible for my decisions

Absolutely. If we as businesses owners hire someone who turns out not to do a good job who's responsible? We are for hiring that person. When you accept that it's your responsibility it's amazing how much better your decision making gets.

cbscreative
12-08-2009, 05:57 PM
It's really not the designer's responsibility to raise the issue in my opinion. I think a good web designer should raise the issue, but I won't go so far as to say it's their responsibility to. It's not about losing a job to me, but rather that people need to be responsible for themselves.

It looks to me like our only disagreement is on "responsibility" and we both agree the issue should be raised. Good enough.

I will also admit this issue can be different on a case by case basis. In a case where the web designer is not qualified to know the difference between good copy and bad, then it would be pointless for them take that responsibility. This further reinforces other points in this thread that the actual responsibility of the web designer is determined by what they and their clients agree they will be in advance.

greenoak
12-09-2009, 09:31 AM
vg...i know what you are saying ....BUT a business being able to get there is the hard part....i believe you, i know that part.........thats what makes me have pretty high standards....higher than many of the folks offering me services actually...
. i would say over half of my ad services have been bad....mainly from the local papers ...who cant even do what i pin them down on ...often as simple as getting the ad approved in a timely manner.......many times ive gotten their initial copy hours before the deadline or didnt get it at all....
and i feel lucky for having inhouse computer work....after seeing the sites and talking to some of the local businesses i know....
i think we small businesses are ripe for computer rip offs because we dont know anythng about them..... like an artist with no mechanical ability with a radiator problem out on the highway....or a guy trying to do everything right at the grocery store and the babies while his wife is away....
and markerters!!! i love them and have learned so much from them....but the truth is they are like the bible...the theories can be all over the place...the local ad guy says you can never know how an ad works.....and many say just the oppposite, you need to track.....and anyone new knows they are the best and can easily do anything!! so sad..
.that makes me kind of a SHOW ME THE BEEf kind of buyer....and very loyal after ive seen it....
.....i do love marketing!!!!

vangogh
12-09-2009, 11:13 AM
It looks to me like our only disagreement is on "responsibility"

Yep. It's that single word. I think web designer's "should" do as many of the different things we've talked about, but it really is impossible to do all of them well. And I think if a client wants to have their copy written and marketing done, they should expect to pay more for those things. That's why I don't like the word responsible. It makes it out like your web designer has to do several jobs for what would ultimately amount to very low pay.

By the way this whole conversation became the inspiration for my latest blog post, What Is A Web Designer Responsible For? (http://www.vanseodesign.com/web-design/web-designer-responsibilities/). Mostly the same stuff I've been saying here, but maybe a few new thoughts in the mix.

Ann I completely understand. It's hard being able to afford certain things early on and until you've picked up some knowledge of a subject it can be hard to tell who's giving you good advice. In your case you clearly have an interest in marketing and can more easily tell when someone is giving you good advice.

What I would say is sometimes we don't always think the "experts" are right. Sometimes it's because they aren't, but sometimes it's because we don't know the things they do know. It's a hard call though. A lot of times it simply comes down to trust. I think it always makes sense to get to know someone you think might become a long term partner in your business. You can give them a small job early on and then go from there. In the end it does come down to trust.

greenoak
12-09-2009, 04:49 PM
trust is so great...along with their ability.....but i could totally trust someone and still not like their work.... and often i rely on people who drive me a little crazy because their work is so good....
trust helps the most when there is a problem...like if we mess up with a long term customer, i can usually fix it becasue we have a good relationship...they actually know we are not going to purposly lead them wrong....not to say its going to be perfect..we always want to make everything right with our customers.... so we say i dont know, or share our doubts instead of going too far in making something sound good.......my theory is under promise over deliver...
we sell cash and carry and offer very little service....which is nice....

vangogh
12-09-2009, 09:03 PM
trust helps the most when there is a problem

Yep. That's when it really comes into play. It's that knowing the person you hired will be there to fix the problems when they happen.