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View Full Version : Unions at Walmart ? Are you serious ?



Harold Mansfield
11-03-2009, 12:04 PM
This issue has been going around for a couple of years now. Here in Vegas, it is common to see Union reps, or employees picketing or protesting Walmart and demanding Unions.

Is it just me, or does anyone else think that this is a ridiculous issue?
I personally don't think that unskilled labor deserves or warrants a union.
I can certainly understand the workers point that they think they deserve a better quality of life, but how is that Walmart's problem ? They offer a competitive wage for the skills that you perform..Cashier, Stock Boy, Retail Sales Associates, Maintenance, and so on.
If you want a better quality of life, maybe you shouldn't be working at a Walmart check out stand..a job that almost anyone can do with no special training or education.

I realize that this may come off a bit elitist, or even arrogant, but to me it's a symptom of the high expectations that many Americans have, when they don't have anything special to offer.

No one should be taken advantage of, and everyone should have decent work conditions and be treated fairly when it comes to wages, but, it is not Walmarts fault that you can't, or don't qualify for a better job.

It's not Walmarts fault that you have no skills or education. It's not Walmarts fault that that may be the only job that you can find right now. It's not Walmarts fault that you are trying to raise a family on $8-$11 an hour..that's all the job is worth ! And as popular as bashing Walmart is, I think the workers who are protesting for a union need to get a grip and realize that they are working a menial job that anyone can do.

There is nothing wrong with working at Walmart and I am not putting down anyone that does, but if you want more, you need to do, or learn more.

If the average cashier at Walmart is union, when does it end...the coffee maker at the local Starbucks, the cashier at 7-11, the grill crew at Mc Donald's ? Your Employees ?

Should all unskilled, untrained labor be unionized ?

Personally, I think Unions are on the way out and they are looking to take strong holds in other industries to stay alive (and I come from a big union city, Detroit, and here in Vegas the Bartenders are Union), but as we struggle to be competitive worldwide, union wages and benefits has been one of the catalysts that has made the American Auto Companies less competitive in the global economy..and that IS skilled labor.

There is and was a time a place for Unions. Throughout our history, they were needed in industries like Auto makers, Mining, trucking and other jobs that were at times dangerous, with horrible working conditions and wages compared of the amount of labor but, I shop at walmart religiously and it's one of the cleanest, most organized and well run stores on the planet. The employees don't look downtrodden, or are missing fingers, or get trapped in a collapsed stock room. It's air conditioned, you aren't forced to work overtime without getting extra pay...to me it's a slap in the face of skilled laborers throughout history who had to endure sometimes life threatening conditions to put in a days work who actually needed some organization and rights in the work place.

Pushing buttons on a cash register, or swinging a mop is not a horrible job in bad conditions and I don't see it as a union job no matter how many kids you are trying to raise on it.

JMO

cbscreative
11-03-2009, 01:48 PM
It's not Walmarts fault that that may be the only job that you can find right now.

On that point, I would disagree. According to whistle blowers, and there seems to be a fair number of them which makes me think there's legitimacy to their claims, creating that situation is deliberate and systematic. WM has left a trail of creating jobs for its stores while they serve as a major contributing factor to job losses elsewhere.

I really don't care to get into a session of WM bashing, and I don't dislike them because I feel threatened by them in any way, but as a small business person, I do disagree with many of their business practices, like strongarming of their vendors (or should I say changing the deal after they sign an agreement). But, Harold, you sure did open a can of worms with this thread.

As for unionizing, I agree, that's not a good solution.

Harold Mansfield
11-03-2009, 02:32 PM
On that point, I would disagree. According to whistle blowers, and there seems to be a fair number of them which makes me think there's legitimacy to their claims, creating that situation is deliberate and systematic. WM has left a trail of creating jobs for its stores while they serve as a major contributing factor to job losses elsewhere..

I'm kind of torn on that. On the one hand, if I ran WM would I be just as shrewd ? Probably. WM is not the first company to sweep through an industry and destroy it's competition. On that I admire and respect them.

Would you blame Toyota for taking market share away from Detroit's Big 3 and creating job loss ? I wouldn't. Detroit should have gotten better. They actually had the opportunity, technology and the money to compete, yet they continued to squander money on over priced salaries, top heavy management, and corporate perks until it was too late and they were caught with their $500 pants down.

Not that I don't feel bad for the local "mom and pop's" that were put out of business by WM, but you can't expect things to stay the same for 50 years.
I don't feel bad for them because WM came to town and they couldn't compete, I feel bad for them because they weren't able to change with the times (long before WM came to town) and keep their business alive.

When was the last time you saw a Video Rental store, Local Record Store, or Arcade?
But in the 70's and 80's they were on every street corner, making tons of money. Record stores were a good investment since people started being able to afford record players..something like from the 1920's - the late 80's. Times change. It was bound to change.

Do you really think the local arcade owner thought it would last forever ? Do they blame Atari, Sony, and Microsoft for making affordable home gaming systems.

Didn't record store owners see the writing on the wall ? Do they blame Apple for inventing the ipod and itunes? Do they blame the internet and cell phone companies for pioneering down-loadable music to cheap, hand held devices?

Wasn't there a similar argument back in the 80's when Blockbuster started coming into small towns and cities and putting the local rental place out of business ? Now 10 years later, Netflicks is kicking Blockbusters butt, and they don't even have any stores !

Couldn't Barnes and Noble have stopped Amazon in their tracks back in the early 90's when they started offering books online for cheaper than the retail store? Who knows if Amazon would have even become what it is today if one of the already existing book sellers had changed with the times in the very beginning, and competed with the new comer in the industry.

If it wasn't WM, it was going to be someone else. For every mom and pop general store that has been around for 30 years, there's a 7-11 in the same neighborhood...sometimes the opposite corner.

It's not like WM is paying below average wages. And I can't blame them because they get a better deal on supplies and materials..they buy more stuff !

How many of you get some kind of discount because you move more volume than a competitor ? Is that unfair ? Not to you it isn't.

In business, someone is going either be bigger and better, or strive to be bigger and better than you. Always. If you don't move with the times, you will get left behind. Business has no conscience.

I'm not saying it doesn't suck to be on the other end. It does. Big Time !
I just got beat out on a job bid by a guy in India that quoted half of the budget allowed for the project. HALF ! The budget was $1200, the guy said he would do the job for $550. Am I pissed ? Not at the guy (although I thought that was stupid). So how do I combat that ? Get better, and more professional so the next time they will have no choice but to award me the project. But I also have to recognize that Indian webmasters are up and coming and will do a job cheaper. $550 in India is a hell of a lot more than $550 in America.


In the world of business, they aren't doing anything legally, or technically wrong, (for the most part.They have had some legal issues, but so has every big business) they're just doing it better and cheaper than everyone else and they are so far ahead of everyone now that it's almost too late to catch them. It's not like it happened overnight. WM started in 1962 and hit the NYSE in 1972.
Plenty of time for others to compete. They didn't have to get this big.

Where the hell has K-Mart been ? Sears ? S.S. Kresge ? Who was minding those stores while WM was taking over for the last 40 years?! If I remeber correctly, when those stores were in their heyday it was the same argument. Sears was everywhere and kicking the local hardware, paint, and appliance stores to the curb along the way.

If I saw an opportunity to capitalize on an untapped market and destroy any and all competition. I would. I'd love to be in that position.

No matter how much I learn or have little successes in this business, I wake up everyday thinking to myself, "I need to get better". That's just the way it is. Everyone is hungry these days and the minute you turn your back, someone is coming to get your customers, and these days, it won't take 40 years for it to happen....it could happen in as little as 40 days.



..... But, Harold, you sure did open a can of worms with this thread.

.

Well, I am more concerned with the state of business and competition and what people need to do to stay alive, than I am WM's actual business practices..but I thought it was a good place to start.

Spider
11-03-2009, 05:24 PM
Now, come on, Harold - tell us what you really think!!!

cbscreative
11-03-2009, 06:38 PM
OK, suppose you strike a deal with WM where they agree to carry your products. Then they decide to change the deal because they are not satisfied with your prices. Nor are they ever satisfied. They keep forcing you to lower them even if they are not increasing the volume of their order, which they refuse to pay for until after it is sold (and at least 120 days after). They have nothing to lose if they don't sell it, yet they tell you how to run your own business. Would you really want to be a vendor for WM?

Now we have issues like human rights violations in foreign manufacturing plants. Either the people who claim to have lost their jobs for reporting it are disgruntled liars, or WM is guilty of not wanting to know and firing anyone who tries to tell them.

I'm not at all opposed to any company getting as big or successful as WM. But if the low prices are provided no matter what the cost, or every decision is made with only the bottom line in mind, then the criticism against them is well deserved.

One thing we do know for sure, for every praise someone sings to WM, there is someone who will point out that all is not what it seems. Personally, my perception of them is that low prices are the ONLY thing that matters and they will stop at nothing to provide the lowest price. While we can say that's just a change in the market, I'm not convinced that they are not the parasite that many critics accuse them of being. The evidence is not in their favor as far as I'm concerned.

orion_joel
11-03-2009, 06:41 PM
Unions i do think serve, a purpose. Maybe for the most part that purpose is to annoy, employers. However, I do believe that employees no matter how unskilled or how low the pay do deserve to be properly represented for their rights as an employee.

In Australia, unions are pretty much in all industries. Where i work, the majority of the people i work with come under the a clerical classification for the job role. The ones that are in a union are in a clerical workers union. This union facilitates the negotiating process of our work agreement, or effectively hourly rates, and conditions of employment. While union representation is low, they still do this. Because it is an expected role of unions.

I personally do not think that unions are needed, but more a better way for individuals to negotiate with their employer. I have successfully pushed and achieved a better result for myself without the union actually being any use. But of course this can be entirely dependent upon many factors. I believe that I can negotiate for myself, while there is a good chance that others may not so much be able to do so.

Blacktalon
11-03-2009, 06:50 PM
A Walmart in Joliette, Québec, attempted to form a union and the reaction from Walmart ws to shut the store down completely, throwing several hundred people out of work.

After having worked with a complacent union for over ten years, my take on unions in general is mixed. It depends on what kind of union you're with and how "militant" they are. The Ontario Public Service Employee's Union (OPSEU) is extremely militant on the Government level; the same with Canadian Union of Public Employees (CUPE, pronounced Q-P).

I bet it's the UFCW (United Food and Commercial Worker's) union that's trying to assemble Walmart. Walmart ought to let them in. UFCW is the most complacent union there is. The common attitude is that they're in bed with management.

Harold Mansfield
11-03-2009, 07:16 PM
OK, suppose you strike a deal with WM where they agree to carry your products. Then they decide to change the deal because they are not satisfied with your prices. Nor are they ever satisfied. They keep forcing you to lower them even if they are not increasing the volume of their order, which they refuse to pay for until after it is sold (and at least 120 days after). They have nothing to lose if they don't sell it, yet they tell you how to run your own business. Would you really want to be a vendor for WM?

Now we have issues like human rights violations in foreign manufacturing plants. Either the people who claim to have lost their jobs for reporting it are disgruntled liars, or WM is guilty of not wanting to know and firing anyone who tries to tell them.

I'm not at all opposed to any company getting as big or successful as WM. But if the low prices are provided no matter what the cost, or every decision is made with only the bottom line in mind, then the criticism against them is well deserved.

One thing we do know for sure, for every praise someone sings to WM, there is someone who will point out that all is not what it seems. Personally, my perception of them is that low prices are the ONLY thing that matters and they will stop at nothing to provide the lowest price. While we can say that's just a change in the market, I'm not convinced that they are not the parasite that many critics accuse them of being. The evidence is not in their favor as far as I'm concerned.
There is no doubt in my mind that Walmart is a dirty company when it comes to dealing with vendors and suppliers. I've been hearing that for years and I think at this point everyone knows it.

However, I worked for a guy in MI that wouldn't carry Jack Daniels because he couldn't get the price he wanted, they eventually caved, and he also stopped carrying Bud because the delivery guy kept coming during lunch time. He didn't carry Bud products for a year, and they finally kissed his butt enough and gave him a huge discount to carry it again. He didn't lose one dime in business that whole year. His attitude was "Bud didn't make this bar busy, I did. There's 100 other beers to carry".

In Las Vegas, Red Bull was notorious for having terrible customer service and jack*ss reps...so people started carrying other energy drinks and they lost market share. Some bars and clubs still will not carry Red Bull because of how they were when they first came to town years ago.

Wm isn't the only one that plays hard ball, and they are not the only game in town.

My attitude is, if I don't like the agreement...I'm out. See Ya ! There are plenty of other stores that will carry the product..K-Mart, Rite Aid, Walgreens, and so on.

My point is, Walmart gets away with things because people keep caving into them. Personally, if I were a supplier, I would never do business with them as a corporation, and the more people that refuse to do business with them because of their unscrupulous practices, the better for their competitors.

WM is nothing without product, yet somehow they have managed to flip the switch and scared vendors into thinking that they need WM.

I see the same thing in domain sales. Buyers will frequently try and set the terms on which they will buy a domain and I always thought that was funny because they are the one in need...not the owner. I already have the domain. You want it. I think I am the one that sets the terms.
It is common to see people looking to buy coveted domains that are rare or category killers and stating that they won't pay more than $20 for them..Well my attitude is, "you won't get this one because you are obviously smoking something". I don't care how broke I am.

Sometimes people get a little arrogant when they are spending a little money and treat the seller or service provider like a servant, kind of like "You are lucky to have my business".

I may have a different attitude than most. I used to get that all the time when I drove a limo on the strip, however, I had no problem turning people away, or tossing them out of the car in the middle of traffic.

The customer is always right, until they start treating you like you are always wrong.

But no matter how unscrupulous they are, and how much their profit statement says every quarter, Cashier is not a Union job. It's a part time job. A transition Job. A job to make ends meet until something else comes along. Until you need a calculus degree and govt. security clearance to run a register, it's an hourly job. Minimum wage. And to expect to make more out of it than it's worth is ridiculous.

I don't hear people saying that WM has horrible working conditions, or that management is unfair. Only that they can't afford to raise a family on the wage, or that they need health insurance. Well to me, it's not really the kind of job that you should expect to raise a family on, or get stellar health insurance. If you have to work it, so be it, but don't put the screws to them because you didn't get a degree, or can't find something that pays more at the moment. It's unskilled , replaceable, labor. It is what it is. You are not running the robotic arm at a manufacturing plant or mining...you're making change. sorry, no union for that. Take the $11 an hour and look for something better.

By that same logic, the guys that dry my car at the local car wash should be union with benefits.

huggytree
11-12-2009, 08:57 AM
Im torn w/ unions....ive been a union plumber for 12 years

they keep the wages more than double to what the non-union in other states get.

non-union in my area make about the same as union because the union controls 90% of the business...if they paid less they would lose them to the union.

so Walmart may have to pay $20 per hour for the checkout people + benefits.

unions are definately on their way out....we no longer have factory jobs which need them anyways.

Walmart will have to raise prices and the next guy will come along (non union) and take over...every company has a rise and fall...unions will be Walmarts fall.

I rarely shop at Walmart anyways...they sell garbage...no big loss to me

billbenson
11-12-2009, 10:24 PM
I rarely shop at Walmart anyways...they sell garbage...no big loss to me

Walmart stores vary dramatically depending on the area. In upscale areas, they have a lot of upscale stuff that they don't have in other stores. They also do a very good job of providing what the people want most in the area of the store such as latin foods in areas with a latin population.

I hate shopping at walmart, but I wouldn't make a blanket statement that all of their stuff is junk. Also, if you want to try something, but may want to return it, they have a great return policy. I bought a video camera for my wife there for her birthday, knowing she could play with it for a few weeks and return it if she didn't like it.

I agree with you though, that unions would cripple Walmart. I don't see that happening though. They would shut down stores before letting unions in.

Steve B
11-13-2009, 05:23 AM
90% of the stuff you can get at Wal-Mart is sold in lots of other stores (Cambbell's Soup, Hitachi TV's, Glad Garbage bags etc. etc.) I agree, a blanket statement that they sell junk is too broad.

There are lots of reasons to hate Wal-Mart - but there stuff is pretty much the same as other retailers.

Re: the other 10%
They do have some specific products made just for them. In these cases, it might very well be true that it is junk. I'm familiar with one example - their brand of dog food ('Ol Roy) is complete garbage and should be banned.

painperdu
11-13-2009, 08:30 AM
The fact that most Walmart jobs are considered menial should not determine whether or not they're union worthy. Wasn't the creation of unions a result of menial factory job workers wanting better conditions? I believe everyone has a right to bargain for the best price for their labor.

I love Walmart. I love their innovation and progressiveness. They're leaders because they use technology and economics as a matter of their philosophy. Of course profit is a part of their being but it's more of a consequence of doing things right rather than THE driving force.

But still, to say that people must have specialized training in order to be eligible to bargain for his labor misses the point. Anyone with specialized training is by definition in high demand and by nature will command a high fee. Unions are for the express purpose of empowering individuals who would otherwise be subject to the whims of much more powerful corporations. If corporations such as Walmart can flex their muscle in order to bargain for better prices then why can't individuals flex their muscle in the form of a union?

cbscreative
11-13-2009, 01:46 PM
90% of the stuff you can get at Wal-Mart is sold in lots of other stores (Cambbell's Soup, Hitachi TV's, Glad Garbage bags etc. etc.) I agree, a blanket statement that they sell junk is too broad.

I can't speak for the examples you used, but even the things you think are the same you would buy elsewhere might not be. WM does have the clout to have brand names custom made too. Why the manufacturers would want to jeopardize their name this way is beyond me, but they do. Maybe it's the temptation of the volume being too good to refuse, but there are some companies, such as Snapper lawnmowers, that refused to play their game.

When I have a little more time, I should look up a case history of how WM almost put Vlassic pickles out of business. It's a long story, but an interesting case. If I recall the events correctly, Vlassic did actually go into bankruptcy as a direct result of a WM deal gone awry.

Harold Mansfield
11-16-2009, 01:36 PM
I have never seen an instance of product being of lesser quality at WM as opposed to the same product at another store.

I have noticed a lot of name brand products packaging smaller portions, or using cheaper materials, yet keeping the price the same..but that is across the board, not just WM.

I don't agree with the way WM does business across the board, but I don't like the way my bank, electric company, cable company, and Microsoft does business either..but I need and want to use their product, and I'm sorry, I'm not installing a windmill, or solar panels (at least not just yet), going without cable and internet access, and stuffing money under my mattress...and I'm not paying $15 for large sized Tide detergent, and $12 for a razor when I can go down the street to WM and get them
both for $18.

billbenson
11-16-2009, 08:49 PM
Just got back from Walmart. Went late and the inferior quality walmart had no lines. I bought some inferior quality name brand canned goods, some inferior quality sharpie pens, inferior quality copy paper an inferior quality toilet brush... and left with out waiting in line $85 later. I'll do it again in a month.

cbscreative
11-16-2009, 09:44 PM
When I have a little more time, I should look up a case history of how WM almost put Vlassic pickles out of business. It's a long story, but an interesting case.

Well, here it is:

Wal-Mart You Don't Know | Fast Company (http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/77/walmart.html)

It's so long I thought I'd pull a few quotes:


Wal-Mart priced it at $2.97--a year's supply of pickles for less than $3! "They were using it as a 'statement' item," says Pat Hunn, who calls himself the "mad scientist" of Vlasic's gallon jar. "Wal-Mart was putting it before consumers, saying, This represents what Wal-Mart's about. You can buy a stinkin' gallon of pickles for $2.97. And it's the nation's number-one brand."

Therein lies the basic conundrum of doing business with the world's largest retailer. By selling a gallon of kosher dills for less than most grocers sell a quart, Wal-Mart may have provided a service for its customers. But what did it do for Vlasic? The pickle maker had spent decades convincing customers that they should pay a premium for its brand. Now Wal-Mart was practically giving them away. And the fevered buying spree that resulted distorted every aspect of Vlasic's operations, from farm field to factory to financial statement.


And here I think is the kicker because it violates a basic principle of marketing against cannibalizing your market:


For Vlasic, the gallon jar of pickles became what might be called a devastating success. "Quickly, it started cannibalizing our non-Wal-Mart business," says Young. "We saw consumers who used to buy the spears and the chips in supermarkets buying the Wal-Mart gallons. They'd eat a quarter of a jar and throw the thing away when they got moldy. A family can't eat them fast enough."


Young remembers begging Wal-Mart for relief. "They said, 'No way,' " says Young.


Finally, Wal-Mart let Vlasic up for air. "The Wal-Mart guy's response was classic," Young recalls. "He said, 'Well, we've done to pickles what we did to orange juice. We've killed it. We can back off.' " Vlasic got to take it down to just over half a gallon of pickles, for $2.79. Not long after that, in January 2001, Vlasic filed for bankruptcy