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phanio
11-03-2009, 10:38 AM
Unbelievable the amount of poor or shotty customer service that companies are trying to (and actually) getting away with.

I recently had a problem with my mortgage company (missing payment) - first they told me it was a lockbox issue (which is BS) - then they tried to tell me it was my fault for sending it in early (I was just trying to reduce a little interest) - it has taken over three weeks for them to find the payment (three weeks since it cleared my checking account - but was never credited to my mortgage account). Yet, some how it is my fault. Plus, when i call them on their BS - they hang up and will not return any calls.

The real funny thing about this is this company touts "Our goal is to be the most courteous and responsive service in the mortgage industry"

If you are going to say - then follow up.

Many people say that it is a cost issue - customer service is expensive - but, what is the alternative - bad customer service and you will lose cusotmers.

I think it is more of an attitude thing - companies that think they are more important than their customers (I would like to see them be businesses without customers - only the banks can do that given that they are too big to fail) and pure laziness (people not wanting to do their jobs or pushing these service duties onto other who cannot do them). If you are having real issues with customers - maybe its not your customers fault.

Anyone know how we can fix the poor customer service in this country?

vangogh
11-03-2009, 11:22 AM
Anyone know how we can fix the poor customer service in this country?

The only way is to stop using companies that give us poor service and as we leave let them know why.

I think "great customer service" has become something all companies say. It's become a meaningless phrase. It's why trying to use the phrase as a selling point is useless. You have to actually provide it in order for it to be a selling point.

It should also be noted that a company that does deliver excellent customer service 99% of the time still angers 1% of it's customers. Sometimes the person you're talking to is having a really bad day and doesn't treat you as well as you'd like. On another day they might. They also don't make a lot of money in general. Paying more to customer service employees would probably lead to better customer service, but that will only happen if it's profitable to the company.

One last point. A lot of times we get poor customer service has more to do with us than it does with the service. If you pick up the phone yelling at the person who answers should you expect them to be nice to you.

cbscreative
11-03-2009, 02:26 PM
I think the low pay that is common in CS is not helping any.

When I read this thread, I couldn't help thinking about an incident I had last month with CA Anti Virus.

They send me the notice for auto renewal. OK, no problem there, I want it renewed anyway, so it's nice that it can be "seamless" and no action is required. So, they take the money a few days early. OK, I can live with that.

As the due date arrives for renewal, the anti virus stops working. I'm pretty good at going through the help/support sections on web sites, so I proceed to find out how I can activate the renewed program that I already paid for. I finally find a way to check the order status. I see the 2008 billing, but the order number sent in the renewal email for 2009 shows "no record found."

I then proceed through a seemingly endless loop of useless Knowledge Base "support" trying to solve the problem. After getting frustrated, I figure it's time to call CS. Try to find a CS number on these sites, that's fun. I finally find it and guess what? It costs $20 for a one time support fee! "You've got to be kidding!" I thought.

So how did I solve this problem? I had "no record" of the transaction to request a refund on the money they took. I wasn't about to pay $20 just to speak with a CS rep. So I had to take action through my credit union. To avoid a stop payment fee, I had to declare the transaction as "merchandise never received" and cancel the card it was on and have a new one issued. The credit union people were great to work with. The action was drastic, but it was the only way to prevent them from accessing the account again since we had no reasonable way of contacting them about it.

I agree about bad CS, and the big online companies can be the worst. The experience with CA was frustrating, especially when I had no way to contact them without paying first. I've got to wonder what genius came up with the idea for a phone call fee. Here is that genius' reward: I recommend you stay away from CA! That's my business tip of the day.

orion_joel
11-03-2009, 06:05 PM
I have seen this first hand as well, in my case at a coffee shop i frequent. This coffee shop has multiple signs saying table service please take a seat. Everyone who walks in to the counter they also tell them it is table service if they take a seat someone will come and serve them.

While this is all well and good, it would be great if they fully follow through on this. Some times they do good and serve at the table seamlessly. However more and more often, you see people who walk out after waiting to long to be served at the table, or people that have to get up and go and chase down a staff member to place an order.

Ok maybe you could expect a little wait if the place was full and not busy, but have the time the store is at less then half capacity, and the staff are just having a chat. I have personally waited up to 30 minutes, before they have finally come and taken an order. Which often does not concern me at all. I have my laptop,if they dont want to serve me i will take up the table anyway.

Customer service should be something that is focused on, by companies, and in my opinion if a small coffee shop cannot get it right, when they employee staff for the specific reason of serving customers. Then how can we expect much larger companies to get it right.

Harold Mansfield
11-03-2009, 06:15 PM
I have seen this first hand as well, in my case at a coffee shop i frequent. This coffee shop has multiple signs saying table service please take a seat. Everyone who walks in to the counter they also tell them it is table service if they take a seat someone will come and serve them.

While this is all well and good, it would be great if they fully follow through on this. Some times they do good and serve at the table seamlessly. However more and more often, you see people who walk out after waiting to long to be served at the table, or people that have to get up and go and chase down a staff member to place an order.

Ok maybe you could expect a little wait if the place was full and not busy, but have the time the store is at less then half capacity, and the staff are just having a chat. I have personally waited up to 30 minutes, before they have finally come and taken an order. Which often does not concern me at all. I have my laptop,if they dont want to serve me i will take up the table anyway.

Customer service should be something that is focused on, by companies, and in my opinion if a small coffee shop cannot get it right, when they employee staff for the specific reason of serving customers. Then how can we expect much larger companies to get it right.

A lot of times I see the business owner have the best intentions, yet the staff could give a damn..and that is very damaging.

A good leader would squash that noise immediately. Once a virus of apathy gets started in the workplace, it's hard to combat if you let it go too long.

I've talked to companies on the phone (like my hosting company, and Amazon) and no matter how loud I raise my voice, they will not engage me in an argument and continue to try and work out the situation and follow up with you to make sure it was handled properly, and then I've talked to others like Pay Pal (yeah, that's right...I said it) who could really give a crap. Their attitude is "That's the way it is and if you don't like it, move on".
However..I have had occasion to talk to people at Pay Pal that were very pleasant and helpful. Why aren't all of the employees like that ? It's obviously not how they were trained, or the company's attitude...it was just those employees. they shouldn't be there.

That attitude comes from the top. No matter what you write in your mission statement, if your employees and management..ALL OF THEM...are not on the same page, you cannot be successful.

I've worked for companies where employees did nothing but complain every working day, and the next thing you know you are doing the same thing...and worked for others that would fire people with bad attitudes no matter how good they were.

It comes from the top. Either bad management skills, or terrible human resources departments.

As far as that coffee shop is concerned..No walk up service ? That's ridiculous ! Everyone has take out, even most restaurants with full menus. Give people the experience they want. You can't make them want it your way.

huggytree
11-03-2009, 07:31 PM
why do we accept poor service? because the average person is cheap and isnt willing to pay for good service....Walmart is king...why?

I used to think 50% of people choose the lowest price no matter what...recently i have up'd that number to 60%+.....the Economy is to blame for that rise i believe.

All the suppliers i deal with constantly screw up things.I have to double/triple check everything. it got so bad about 6 months ago i was going to up my prices to cover all the time i was spending fixing supply house mistakes..they are all short staffed to survive...ive found a couple of people now who dont screw up and i use them exclusively... ive even figured out ways to send them extra business to reward them...which makes them work even harder for me!.

I give perfect service...i call back 99% of the time in 5 minutes...i handle problems same day......I do what no one else can do when it comes to service....this is why i believe my sales are up 25% this year...while everyone else is down....good service is gone everywhere but at my business......

Patrysha
11-03-2009, 10:12 PM
I don't think people are cheap. They want value, but that is not the same as cheap. Yeah, there are discount shoppers and freebie seekers, but I don't think they add up to that high of a percentage. And there are people who are that way for a certain period of time and who buy better when they can afford better.

But I do think that if they aren't going to get customer service then they are going to go to the cheapest place available...

When I had to go through racks of clothes and choose the styles and sizes of the items I was searching for all by myself and then set my son up in a change room and run back and forth as he tried everything on...with the only staff interaction occurring at the 'till and without even a hint of personality or a glimmer of a smile - yeah I might as well shop at Walmart - it's not like my boys give a hoot about designer names and name brands - so why wouldn't I? Same amount of work for me at a lower price...

If there were another local option for clothes for boys of his age then I would try there first...but shopping at WM is better then heading out of town.

And in this case, I do know that it absolutely reflects the lack of respect the employers have for the employees and the customers. The owner is full of complaints about both, but resists suggestions of staff training or development.

I know that store is losing at least $1000 a year from just one customer. There is a product she loves that they carry and she knows they have them available, but she refuses to go there due to the bad customer service. Better to burn a tank of gas on a trip to the city and back and spend her $$ where she feels appreciated. Of course she doesn't actually take trips in specifically to go shopping for that one product...but the sentiment is there. How many others in town feel the same way? How many thousands of dollars did that store burn away with bad customer service.

OTOH, I bought a sweater I shouldn't have (I am trying to stick to a budget) last week in a store that every single one of the staff is sincere, pleasant and attentive every single time I go in...even when I am there to sell and not buy. It is the only clothing store where I have ever paid full retail price (though I do even there mostly shop the sales).

vangogh
11-03-2009, 11:33 PM
Have to agree with Patrysha. People buy on value not price. When people are only buying on price it's because they don't see any value in paying more. A simple example. Looking through my kitchen cabinets I have some canned veggies and all are the brand of my local supermarket. I don't think buying more expensive canned veggies are going to make them taste any bette or provide any more nutritional value. In fact I bet it's the same stuff with a different label.

On the other hand if I'm buying a steak I'm going to choose the best cut I can find, even though it will be more expensive. I do expect in that case the steak will taste better and have less fat. There's extra value and so I'll pay more for that value.

When the economy is down people have less money to spend so they reevaluate some things. Maybe something that had value to them before doesn't have as much value as it does now or rather the money has more value than what they were going to get from their purchase. A down economy is just a temporary thing though. People are still buying based on value. It's simply that their priorities change and so does what they see as valuable.

cbscreative
11-04-2009, 10:03 AM
It's not very often I disagree with vangogh, so I need to take advantage of the opportunity. There is a difference in canned veggies, though I'm not a fan of most stuff in a can. You would think you're getting the same thing, but somehow, someone is grading the quality to decide who gets to package it. I've found there is a discernable difference.

Even better is if you're as spoiled as I am. We visit the local farms and pick fresh, and then can our own. That's the absolute best!

There, now that I set the record straight, let the games continue. :)

Spider
11-04-2009, 10:27 AM
Game continuing---

Customer service doesn't increase your business, except in the long term. You still have to get the business first before you have the opportunity to service the customer. (And anything that might look like customer service before the sale is really part of the sales process.)

Customer service doesn't pay in the short term - it is an expense, not income. Perhaps that's why some companies (those with a short horizon) give it less emphasis.

Customer service does not generate sales in and of itself - all it can do is help retain customers that might otherwise have been lost. It is a long term benefit to a company.



....I give perfect service....this is why i believe my sales are up 25% this year....I believe your business is up 25% this year because I coached you for a while. :-)

vangogh
11-04-2009, 10:56 AM
Steve if there is a difference in the canned veggies I've never been able to taste it. Still not enough value there for me to pay for the bigger brands. I'll take your word for it that there is a difference. I agree with you about getting fresh veggies over canned too. That's my preference, but I like have some canned stuff here that always keeps for those times I can't make it to the store.


Customer service doesn't increase your business, except in the long term. You still have to get the business first before you have the opportunity to service the customer. (And anything that might look like customer service before the sale is really part of the sales process.)

Yep. Customer service is one of those things that if done well helps down the road with word of mouth. Saying you have great customer service is meaningless. You have to really deliver and if you do your customers will spread the word in time.

cbscreative
11-04-2009, 11:38 AM
This has been said in other threads here, but it should be repeated, especially considering the content here so far. Good CS does not always yield measureable results, but bad CS sure does. Generally speaking, even though people appreciate good service, it's not always acknowledged, especially in the form of a written testimonial. However, bad experiences tend to get told about quickly, which is further demonstrated by our posts here.

I think most of us understand that mistakes can happen, and I'm not as quick to fault a company for a problem. The way they handle the problem makes all the difference though. It's actually their opprtunity to turn things completely around. I've had some great experiences stemming from initial frustration simply because the CS went the extra mile. As illustrated above, some companies just don't get that.

huggytree
11-04-2009, 02:40 PM
if alot of people arent cheap then why is Walmart the largest retailer?

does Walmart sell value or price?....i dont see anything of value at Walmart...its just cheap junk...every product they sell is a cut rate version of a normal product...i even think their Cheetos arent the same...

Why is Home Depot so popular? they sell junk....everything they sell is a cut rate version..their faucets i know are...some arent even in my catalogs..they make special Moen/Delta faucets just for Home Depot...Im buying door locks for my house...my builder friend also says the guts are different...im paying $10 extra per door lock to get builder grade....

Why is McDonalds doing well through the recession? $1 menu.....where's the value? its just cheap junk to fill you up...

i think 50% only buy on price...the other 50% i agree can be swayed with Value.

the reason service is so bad is the same reason Goverment is so bad...its our fault..were getting what we paid for or voted for.

People are getting frustrated by poor service...i hear it all the time...i experience poor service daily if not hourly....If strongly believe good service can draw people to your company...It creates referrals....It helps you hold onto existing customers....i lose customers due to price, but 50% come back with a year....They are willing to pay more because they see what a lower price gets you...problems.

vangogh
11-04-2009, 10:00 PM
Why is Walmart the largest retailer?

True Walmart has lower prices. They also have convenience since you can buy so many things in one spot.

I think you're missing the point about value. First value is in the eye of the beholder. What you see having value isn't necessarily what another person sees as having value. Value does not mean valuable.

When we're talking about people buy on value it doesn't mean price isn't part of the equation. Most of the things Walmart sells are things that most people don't put a lot of value on. The sell a lot of commodity items where there's little difference from one to the next. In those instances the added value for a higher priced item isn't more than the extra price of that item. So you buy the cheaper item, but your decision was still about value.

I'll use an example from your business. You've mentioned American Standard as not being a good toilet. Say I have a problem with my toilet and clearly need a new one. You want to sell me one that will last 40 years. It's clearly a better toilet and worth the price. However I plan on selling my condo in 2 years. Why would I care if the toilet lasts 40 years. All I want is one that will last 5 years at most. There's no value for me in the better toilet that will last 35 more years since I won't be using it for any of those 35 years. So I want the cheaper toilet. My decision isn't based on price though. It's based on value. There's no value in what the better toilet offers me. The cost is far more than any value I'll get from it.

huggytree
11-06-2009, 09:16 AM
Value means- not the lowest price...it means paying just enough to get a quality product...paying 10-25% more for a product typically gets you a good product for the money.....spending any more gets you better, but only slightly....

Walmart has no mid range products....most of what they sell is cut rate junk......i dont see value at Walmart at all.....i do agree it has everything in 1 location...definately a plus.

same with Home Depot....carpenters dont buy their wood from HD to get a great 2x4... the ones who buy their 2x4's from them get it because 'its just a piece of wood'....i buy my 2x4's from HD...i dont even look for a straight one...i use it for backing and pipe support..it doesnt matter if its straight....id never build my house from HD 2x4's

I predict service will continue to drop like a rock as companies continue to hold/lower prices...they will make due with less employees and try to get more out of them...

When I work on houses from the late 70's and early 80's its all junk...poor products(some not even code legal anymore)..poor quality workmanship....the economy was very similar and everyone got super cheap + the crazy interest rate thing....Im seeing the same thing now...im seeing new products introduced which are junk...im seeing contractors using sidejobbers to cut their plumbing bill in 1/2....its becoming very difficult to sell quality/service to homeowners.

Im just lucky i have a batch of good contractors which still are willing to pay for it....some are doing poorly though...some have gone out of business.

cbscreative
11-06-2009, 11:25 AM
Im just lucky i have a batch of good contractors which still are willing to pay for it....some are doing poorly though...some have gone out of business.

That's sad, but it's also a product of bad marketing. Sure, many people will cut corners in a down economy, but there are still many who realize that their home is their single greatest investment. Since it doesn't make sense to sell in the current market, remodeling and fixing is the better option. Doing it on the cheap will bite later and many people realize that even if things are tight.

What I see is too many businesses using the economy as an excuse instead of adjusting their marketing to take advantage of opportunities. Some of us homeowners know that WM and HD can (and do) have things custom manufactured to meet their low price demands. Your job as a contractor is to reach those of us who know better than to buy their junk.

vangogh
11-06-2009, 11:40 AM
Value means- not the lowest price...it means paying just enough to get a quality product

No, it doesn't. Value is about the relative worth of something. It's about both sides of an exchange being fair and equal to the parties involved. Price doesn't even have to enter into the equation.

Say I need new plumbing and you need a new website. You and I could work out some kind of exchange of services. If both of us think we're getting back in services roughly equal to what we're giving then the exchange would have value for both of us. We both might use price somewhere in our calculations of what's a fair exchange in order to compare apples to apples so to speak, but the value itself isn't about price.

When someone is buying something one side of the equation is about price. When I buy something at Walmart I'm giving them money in exchange for some goods. The decision is still about value though. Do I think what they're selling is worth the amount of money they're asking. My decision is not based on price alone.

Getting back to our exchange of services. If a pipe in my house bursts and my place is filling up with water I'll give you a lot more in web design services to fix it right away than I would if there was no emergency.

Different people assign different values to the same item based on a lot of factors. Most people would never pay what I pay for a computer. It's part of my business and I use it a lot. I'll pay top dollar to get the most computer I can. I typically pay around $3,000 for a new laptop. Most people use a computer to email, surf the web, and a few other minor things that a low end computer can do perfectly well. They assign less value overall to a computer and would never pay what I pay for the computer I buy. To them the value they get back from the computer isn't worth the price they have to pay to get it.

When someone is hiring you to work in their home they are assigning a value to your work and deciding if that value is worth the price you are charging. You see two toilets and know one is the better product. You know it will last longer and ultimately cost less and require less work over a number of years. Your customer may not see that value. To them it's a toilet. To them as long as it flushes they're happy. They aren't seeing the value in the better toilet. Some people will and some won't. Neither is only looking at the price. They may not be consciously calculating value, but that's still what it comes down to.

If you get someone to see how the better toilet is the better value they will buy it. But you have to get them to see it on their terms and not your terms.

phanio
11-11-2009, 03:11 PM
Customer service does not generate sales in and of itself - all it can do is help retain customers that might otherwise have been lost. It is a long term benefit to a company.

In of itself - it does not generate revenue - neither does marketing - yet we all spend tons of money do that. Marketing only creates interest or knowledge of a business - it is the sell point or selling efforts that generates revenue. You can do all the SEO you want - but if you don't have a shopping cart - no sales.

CS can generate revenue - if used properly - CS is a great way to cross-sell or oversell (that problem was corrected in our 3.0 product - would you like to purchas it?). But, to get to that point - you have to get the customer to stop screaming - that is where real customer service comes in.

As a former banker - I had people screaming at me all the time - I first would work on their situation - then cross-sell them new products - we would both win. If customer service is thought of more as marketing and selling - then maybe companies would put more money into it and we would not have these horror stories any more.

vangogh
11-11-2009, 08:23 PM
In of itself - it does not generate revenue - neither does marketing

Agreed. Nothing in and of itself generates revenue. It all works together. You have to attract people to your offering, have something to offer, convince them to buy, make sure your product or service was worth the money you charged, give great service so people will buy again and spread the work bring more people to your offering.

Plus a whole bunch of other things I didn't mention. Having a successful business is about doing many things right, not just one or two.

KristineS
11-13-2009, 01:35 PM
I think, everything else being equal, the quality of customer service can make a big difference. I know there are places where I shop because the customer service is stellar, and they clearly appreciate my business. I could probably find the same products at other places, but I wouldn't be treated as well and, to me, that matters.

I think that people have just become kind of numb to bad customer service. We're so used to being treated like it is a privilege to give a company our money that we don't even notice it anymore. As consumers we need to start rewarding the companies that treat us well, and punishing the companies that don't. Vote with your dollars. If enough people do that, the standards of customer service will change.

Spider
11-13-2009, 02:41 PM
I'm really sad to hear all these complaints about poor customer service in general. It has me wondering where you'all shop or what you do to get such bad service. I cannot remember the last time I received bad customer service. I have found Wal-Mart's customer service very good, Target, too. Lowes' excellent, Home Depot not the best but still not bad. Restaurants of all levels (fast food included), dry cleaners, shoe repair shops, convenience stores, (I'm trying to think of all the different businesses I have dealt with in recent weeks) all good. The GM dealership that services my vehicle are stellar, and so was the previous one before they closed down. My credit card customer service has never been a problem over several banks, the banks' tellers themselves are all great.

I cannot believe that Houston is the Customer Service capital of the world -- although Texas is the best in so many things - why not customer service, too!!

cbscreative
11-13-2009, 06:01 PM
So, Frederick, tell us again how low your expectations are... :D

cbscreative
11-13-2009, 06:02 PM
Please do not take that comment seriously.

Spider
11-13-2009, 10:59 PM
Please do not take that comment seriously.Oh! I had three pages typed before I noticed this post!!


Let me at least give you a tip. Two tips.

Smile. And when talking to someone, use their name - most empoyees wear a name tag.

A smile on your face affects how your voice sounds. Then using someone's name with that smile in your voice puts them at ease and turns them into an ally. You're probably the first nice person they have met all day!

Result: Great customer service!

vangogh
11-13-2009, 11:46 PM
You definitely get better customer service when you smile and treat them nicely. I've worked customer service jobs and if you come in yelling at me you aren't getting the same help as if you came in and asked me how my day is going. Try to understand you're not upset with the customer service rep, you're upset with the company. The customer service rep probably isn't making much money, certainly not enough to put up with being yelled at for no reason.

Having said all that there are some truly miserable people working customer service jobs. I have approached some very nicely only to find them rude in return. And especially when it comes to phone support with major utilities it can be impossible to get any kind of resolution. Seems like all they do is read off a script and no matter what your question you get the same standard answer. Assuming of course you ever do get through to a real person.

Frederick I guess you've never gotten caught in the auto systems when you call support online. The ones that tell you how important you are over and over again while you're on hold and the ones that ask you for all your information only to have the person who eventually answers ask you that same information again. Not all customer service is face-to-face.

Steve B
11-14-2009, 03:08 AM
I agree with Frederick with the face to face situations. CS has taken a huge leap forward from the 70's and 80's. You can return practically anything for any reason and the employees are very helpful in most retail situations (when you can find them).

However, much of my shopping is done on-line and the CS in those situations can be completely horrible thanks to anonymity and automation. Heck, sometimes they don't even have a phone number to call anymore.

Spider
11-14-2009, 08:25 AM
Regarding the auto system and not being able to reach a real person. I'll add to that the list of options that doesn't include anything that remotely covers what I am calling about.

Here is my solutions:

First, when the auto system covers my query, I always try to use it because it is fast and efficient. Best not to speak to a person if the system will work its magic.

If I absolutely have to speak to a person and there is no option to do so, I just press "0" a number of times. Sometimes that leads to a disconnect but often it gets you to a real person. You can also press any key that wasn't an option - Press 1 for this or 2 for that, so press 3. Some systems will tell you, "Please hold on and a representative will help you."

Another dodge I have used successfully is to press a series of numbers - that sometimes translates into an extension number and somone picks up. Then I very briefly explain the subject of my problem and ask them nicely to transfer me to the right department.

I have also found a person by choosing options that lead to "Security." This is something, apparently, that cannot be dealt with automatically and a person needs to respond. Once a person is on the line, apologize for reaching the wrong department and ask to be transfered to the right department.

Another thing that has helped me with Credit card queries - don't just state the problem, suggest a solution. Eg. Don't just state that they have billed something incorrectly, also tell then what you want them to do about it - like, Can you please reverse that charge.
.. Now, the CS rep may not have the authority to do what you ask, but they won't tell you that, they'll just say it cannot be done. At which point I ask to speak to their supervisor. They will be reluctant to transfer you. At which I say very politely, "Ma'am (or Sir), I'm trying very hard not to get annoyed. You have been very nice and I'm sure you don't like dealing with angry customers. Why not just pass me on to your supervisor and let them handle it - that's why they get paid he big bucks, isn't it?"
.. Instant transfer! And the supervisor has the authority. If your request is not unreasonable, it is very likely to be carried out immediately.
.. Resuilt: Great customer service even in a difficult situation.

Steve B
11-14-2009, 08:40 AM
Isn't it sad that we need a lesson on how to "trick" an automated system to allow a customer to be listened to?

Hopefully, this relationship with automation and customer service will come full circle and some company will kick the crap out of their competition because they have real live people answering the phone that can actually listen to and help someone.

Spider
11-14-2009, 11:20 AM
Isn't it sad that we need a lesson on how to "trick" an automated system to allow a customer to be listened to? ..Perhaps I get good customer service because I expect and anticipate good customer service. I don't look on this as having to *trick* an automatic system to do my bidding, any more than I *trick* the automatic gearbox in my car to downshift by stomping on the gas, when I want to pass another car.

It's just a question of learning how to use the systems that are available.

Besides, when I don't need a human, I am very grateful for the auto-systems - they are very efficient, timely and accurate.

low bidder
11-14-2009, 11:20 AM
I think no matter what, the customer is king. You spend a lot of time getting that customer, you want them to come back. Most everyone appreciates good service.

Steve B
11-14-2009, 12:44 PM
Sorry - what you described sounds like tricking the system to me. Perhaps I should have used the word "dodge" instead.

I guess you're right - it must be my fault I don't get good customer service when I call a company. Now I see it! If I'd only raise my expectations - why didn't I think of that?

Spider
11-14-2009, 01:09 PM
Sorry - what you described sounds like tricking the system to me. Perhaps I should have used the word "dodge" instead.
I guess you're right - it must be my fault I don't get good customer service when I call a company. Now I see it! If I'd only raise my expectations - why didn't I think of that?Ah, now you are being sarcastic, Steve. With that frame of mind you'll never get good service.

I'm not saying the service is your responsibility, but how you feel about it is. I'm simply saying you make the difference in how you perceive things.

Look at this - You and I go to a theme park. We go on a rollercoaster together, one of those corkscrew, upside-down things. We get off. I think it was terrible, I was scared, I will never go on anything like that again. You, OTOH, thought it was great, you enjoyed it immensely and line up for another go.

Same ride, same conditions, I thought it was bad, you thought it was good. We had the same experience but we had different experiences! If I had changed my attitude to the ride, I could have enjoyed it as much as you did.

Patrysha
11-14-2009, 01:22 PM
Expectations are based on experiences though.

If I go into a certain store in town, am I really getting bad service because I expected it? Or does the fact that the bosses treat their employees and customers like commodities play into it at all?

If I go into the other store that has shown me that they value my business, do I get good service because I expect it or does the fact that the business owner understands that service is part of the sales process and trains her staff accordingly play into it?

As a customer I feel I deserve to be picky...it is MY money and I get to decide what is important to me. Business owners can either meet my expectations or lose me as a customer, it is their choice.

cbscreative
11-14-2009, 01:59 PM
Frederick, I see your points, but the example I used above on my experience with CA illustrates exactly how CS really is bad with some companies. Just today, I received yet another notice from someone who I needed to update my billing records with. It's not that company's fault, so I'm not complaining about the notice, but the action I had to take because CA has the wrong attitude toward their customers is still having repercussions. I have to remember everyone using that old card number and update my billing.

For face to face situations, I rarely ever have a problem not solved to my satisfaction. And as Patrysha said, staff training and the value companies place on their people make a huge difference too. Some companies understand that a lot better than others.

Spider
11-14-2009, 06:29 PM
I understand what you both are saying, Patrysha and Steve C. And you may be (I'll accept that you are) right regarding those other companies. But here's how I see it. I have no control over how those other companies operate. The only thing I have control over is my attitude.

How does it benefit me to get upset over what I have no control over? If I focus on controlling what I can control - my attitude (per the rollercoaster ride Steve B and I took) - then I choose to be satisfied. I am therefore happy, and I go about my business in a better frame of mind.

Now, do you think I might be more successful at the rest of the things I have to deal with when I am happy, or less successful? I find I get more done, and done well, when I am happy. So, I find it beneficial to refuse to acknowledge bad customer service as such and see all service I get as being good. I'm more productive that way, I make more profit and life is not in the least tiresome.

I have seen people ruin their entire day (and lose money because they worked on commission) because some jakass cut them off on their morning commute. That never did make sense to me!

cbscreative
11-14-2009, 08:05 PM
An interesting point for sure, Frederick, and I think I see what you're getting at. For the way I understand your point, I agree. Maybe "upset" is too strong of a word. At least from my perspective, it doesn't accurately describe my response. Annoyed maybe, but more from a "how can I avoid having this happen again" point of view. I seek an alternative and move on, not dwell on it or let it ruin my day.

Without going back to the previous page to see who said this, I think the statement that this could run full circle is likely. IOW, those providing bad service lose out to those who take advantage of the situation. That's what I love about free enterprise. It is mostly self cleansing.

huggytree
11-14-2009, 08:13 PM
i rate most customer service as poor and getting worse. Everyone screws up everything for me....Id say 90% of the companies I deal with in Personal and business i would rate poor.....

Im in the process of ordering new kitchen/dinning room cabinets...showroom girl told me to order 2 sample doors "it only takes 1 week"...she came over with 1 of the doors 3 weeks later...have to wait 1 more week for the 2nd door...i waited to be sure the doors were perfect and ended up screwing myself out of getting my kitchen done before Christmas...1 week = 4 weeks....unexceptable...my contractor has been hearing about it from me weekly.

i had my credit cards stolen....each credit card company took 3-4 calls...All from India...Just got the statement on one of them today...they took off 3 bad charges...then they put 1 back on...So i called...got transfered 2x and found out only 1 person can fix it and she's not in today...call back Monday..I will have spent about 1.5 hours just with this 1 credit card company(Capitol One) to get $75 back......if i knew we'd be spending 3.5 hours total to get $150 back id probably have just paid it....my free time is worth more

I had 1 person call who i couldnt understand...i sent her to my wife and she said she couldnt understand her either....she told them to have someone else call her...they never did.

Good customer service would cost 10%+ more....who is willing to pay more???? sometimes I am, sometimes im not...Toyota's cost about $1,500+ more compared to a Chevy...From my personal experience I get much better service from Toyota.

With my supplies for my business I try to get the lowest prices for a quality product..it has taken me about 2 years to finally find the right people who can serve me and still give me the best price.....they still screw up more than i feel they should...

When I go to Walmart I can spend 5 minutes to locate someone to help and they usually have to find someone else..We rarely go there anymore...Everyone there looks like they live in trailor parks...some of their food is 3rd world country bad...We go once a month to stock up on odds and ends that the food store doesnt carry...if we had any other larger dept. store nearby id go there instead....


Home Depot can take 2-3 minutes to find someone and all the tradesmen dont know anything about Plumbing,Electrical, Hvac....their advice is worse than nothing....Home Depot used to have some skilled guys...i heard they made $20 per hour....not anymore..

When service is more important and people are willing to pay more for it you will see it come back....From my experience lately Id say it isnt going to happen anytime soon...expect it to dramatically worsen.

low bidder
11-15-2009, 11:15 AM
As companys cut costs to try to stay afloat, unfortunately, hiring and paying for quality people to provide customers with good customer service is axed. Most computers and other tech phone service is shipped overseas as well as anything that is manufactured. People want cheap stuff and in order for folks like Walmart to deliver, something has to go and cutting back on customer service helps the bottome line, at least in the short term.

Also, the entire store is filled with goods from China or somewhere else. Maybe if the whole country got on the same page and, instead of having a closet full of cheap clothes or a house full of cheap overseas stuff, we instead bought fewer but quality things made in the USA, it would help our jobs situation. Everyone would benefit.

I just bought new Wrangler jeans at Walmart. The last time I bought them, about 4 years ago, they were made in the US. These new jeans were much less expensive, but they were made in Mexico. Some folks lost their jobs, but I got my cheap jeans. This is probably digressing from the post's original topic. Sorry.

KristineS
11-16-2009, 01:40 PM
Frederick, you do have a point, how you perceive something and how you react to it can make a difference in the experience. I won't argue that.

That said, I would also argue that customer service is like anything else, positive reinforcement will generally help it get better. If enough people vote with their feet or their dollars and stop patronizing businesses that treat them like commodities, then the businesses will learn to be different or they won't be anymore.

billbenson
11-16-2009, 02:30 PM
As companys cut costs to try to stay afloat, unfortunately, hiring and paying for quality people to provide customers with good customer service is axed. Most computers and other tech phone service is shipped overseas as well as anything that is manufactured. People want cheap stuff and in order for folks like Walmart to deliver, something has to go and cutting back on customer service helps the bottome line, at least in the short term.

Also, the entire store is filled with goods from China or somewhere else. Maybe if the whole country got on the same page and, instead of having a closet full of cheap clothes or a house full of cheap overseas stuff, we instead bought fewer but quality things made in the USA, it would help our jobs situation. Everyone would benefit.

I just bought new Wrangler jeans at Walmart. The last time I bought them, about 4 years ago, they were made in the US. These new jeans were much less expensive, but they were made in Mexico. Some folks lost their jobs, but I got my cheap jeans. This is probably digressing from the post's original topic. Sorry.

I really doubt your wrangler jeans were made here 4 years ago. Levi's and most textiles have been made outside the US for at least 15 years. I lived in El Salvador 12 years ago and Levi's larges factory in the world was there at that time. It would be far to expensive for any of them to manufacture in the US. Quality control is done here. The blems are sold off cheap. You may be getting blems at Walmart. I have no idea.

handprop
11-16-2009, 03:27 PM
Not to split hairs but a Toyota is not more expensive, but instead much cheaper. Up front cost may be a bit more but the resale value of a Toyota far exceeds that of American cars not including a Corvette because that has one of the highest.

Mike

Dan Furman
11-16-2009, 06:16 PM
I just bought new Wrangler jeans at Walmart. The last time I bought them, about 4 years ago, they were made in the US. These new jeans were much less expensive, but they were made in Mexico. Some folks lost their jobs, but I got my cheap jeans. This is probably digressing from the post's original topic. Sorry.

actually, it isn't digressing. That's the exact issue/reason.

There is no customer service because we (as a society) generally refuse to pay for it.

Patrysha
11-16-2009, 07:10 PM
I am selective about what items I am willing to pay a premium on for service...

Nice clothing for business gear for me or hubby...yup.
Blue jeans...nope
sports equipment...yup
electronics...nope

Dan Furman
11-16-2009, 07:15 PM
I am selective about what items I am willing to pay a premium on for service...

Nice clothing for business gear for me or hubby...yup.
Blue jeans...nope
sports equipment...yup
electronics...nope

I will pay - it's why I don't shop at WalMart, for example (or Home Depot). Because neither can get me out of there in a reasonable time - they just don't have enough cashiers.

I'll pay more to simply shop in a better place.

vangogh
11-16-2009, 08:00 PM
I'm not saying the service is your responsibility, but how you feel about it is. I'm simply saying you make the difference in how you perceive things.

Frederick I completely agree with you. It really is amazing how much better service you can get if you go into it with the right attitude.

Where it becomes an issue for me is there are times where you can go in with the right attitude to no avail. I know most automated telephone systems will let you dial 0 to speak with a real person, but some don't. There are also automated systems where you can't press 0 until the the message your listening to pauses so you have to listen to a very long message that has nothing to do with you until you can press 0 to get to a person. Having to give your information to the automated system so it can direct your call the right way and then immediately being asked for that information again is wrong. The overall message with those things is saying we really don't care about you as a customer.

Dan is right that it all comes down to cost. Customer service is expensive and most of us aren't willing to pay that expense. We expect free customer service. For myself I think of the cost of customer service as a marketing expense. There's still a limit on how much service I can give for free, but most of it does go toward generating word of mouth and building a positive reputation so it's worth it.

A lot of companies look at it only in the terms of the cost of the service. You're right that we have a lot of control over the kind of service we get, but I also know that when dealing with a company consistently requires more of that effort I'm much more likely to look for another company.

cbscreative
11-16-2009, 08:55 PM
I will pay - it's why I don't shop at WalMart, for example (or Home Depot). Because neither can get me out of there in a reasonable time - they just don't have enough cashiers.

I'll pay more to simply shop in a better place.

I think you hit on something important here, Dan. Most people don't, and from my understanding of history, never have placed a high enough value on their time. Ironically, it's the one commodity that can't be replaced. Money is replaceable. I do the same thing you do. I shop at stores even when I know I could save a few dollars to go somewhere else, but it would cost me in time, so I'd rather pay with money.

I'm the kind of person where I have to put effort into not getting annoyed by slow drivers. I have much better things to do than spend any more time than necessary behind the wheel. Life has a lot more to offer. I prefer to get from point A to B as efficiently as possible. I am SO GLAD to work at home.

Think of all those people who when they are near the end say, "I wish I'd spent more time with my family." Well, don't squander time in a checkout lane! I've never heard of a dying person wishing they'd saved more money bargain hunting.

It never ceases to amaze me what some people will go through to save a small amount of money. At times, it provides a good source of amusement (at least when it's not pathetically sad anyway).

I realize for some people there is a certain thrill in the bargain hunting experience, I just don't share that enthusiasm.

vangogh
11-16-2009, 10:53 PM
Steve I do the same thing. I never go into the post office. I always go to the UPS store instead. Stamps cost a little more, but I'm in and out in a few minutes and almost never have to wait on any line. It's also closer to where I live with better parking. I'll gladly pay a little more for stamps for the convenience.

I don't know though that people in general don't place value on their time. You also have to consider what their time is worth. Putting in solely in economic terms if you work for $10/hr your time is worth less than if you work for $100/hr. The $100/hr person is more likely to want to trade money for time.

That doesn't account for non economic factors of course.


Ironically, it's (time) the one commodity that can't be replaced.

Until we figure out how to travel through it of course. They do it all the time on Star Trek so it must be possible :)

cbscreative
11-17-2009, 12:35 AM
I don't know though that people in general don't place value on their time.

I guess if my statement is not considered strictly in context, it could easily be misunderstood. I think everyone places some kind of value on their time, but the way they value it varies.

This point can be demonstrated with an experience my wife had about a week or two ago. A local mall had a promotion where you bring in a bag of food for charity and receive a $20 voucher to spend in the mall. She arrived with her donation to find the line was so long it had a wait time of an hour and a half or so. So here are hundreds of people waiting the better part of 2 hours with more arriving by the minute.

My wife brought her bag to the front of the line and just handed it over to save the time and hassle of waiting just to claim a voucher. She was the only one that did that, at least during the time she was there. Besides my amusement at visualizing all these people willing to waste so much time when she told me about it, it reminded me of how people are willing to give up significant amounts of time for very little money.

Sure, this example uses $20 which is at least a more significant reward, but I could have used other illustrations where you can get people to waste a few hours for $5, or make them jump through an amazing number of hoops for 50¢ and they'll play along.

It's not that I never waste time, so I don't want to sound self righteous, but I do find it amusing how easily you can get masses of people to kill time to save a buck. At the same time, I'm glad they do because if everyone thought like me, I might be waiting in the long lines I try to avoid.

Dan Furman
11-17-2009, 12:06 PM
Another good example is when a gas station does a promotion like "$1 gas" or the like - the line stretches around the block. People will wait hours in a car line to save $20-$30.

I generally value my time at $100 an hour. On my "off" or liesure time, it's a lot higher.

billbenson
11-17-2009, 12:24 PM
I don't waste time either. I do most of my short shopping trips to a grocery store that is at least 10% higher in price. Across the street is a much better grocery store with generally higher quality products. I go there only when I'm buying something of a higher quality. I still try to do that in the early evening after most grocery shoppers have bought and are at home cooking.

I use the megamarts such as Walmart, Costco etc., to stock up at better prices. I think its worth the time once a quarter to go to Costco and stock up on everything from toilet paper to meat which I freeze. From a quality and time savings standpoint this works out very well. Meats in particular are a great value and cheap. I buy a whole tenderloin and cut it into fillet Mignon's. Its $7 per pound vs $25 at the grocery store. I have storage and a freezer in the garage, so I can keep a lot of canned goods, paper towel etc. It saves a lot of trips to the local store for things you run out of so it saves time and money.

These things used properly are a great time saver.

KristineS
11-17-2009, 12:46 PM
I'm the same way when it comes to time. I'll spend a few more dollars to have a more efficient shopping experience. I'm also not a huge fan of huge stores. Wandering around an acre size store looking for the four things I need just doesn't appeal.

It does come down to deciding where your time can be most profitably spent.

Spider
11-17-2009, 01:07 PM
..I'm also not a huge fan of huge stores. Wandering around an acre size store looking for the four things I need just doesn't appeal...There's a nice little business idea for some enterprising individual - Learn where everything is and hire yourself out as an "IN-STORE RUSHED SHOPPER GUIDE." (You'd have to get the store manager's permission, though.)

KristineS
11-18-2009, 01:33 PM
Personally I'd like a personal shopper myself. Someone who would go and do the shopping for me and leave me to do other things.

I do most of my shopping online, except in cases where I can't, like groceries, or where it simply doesn't make sense to do so, toiletries and stuff like that.

low bidder
11-25-2009, 03:17 PM
I really doubt your wrangler jeans were made here 4 years ago. Levi's and most textiles have been made outside the US for at least 15 years. I lived in El Salvador 12 years ago and Levi's larges factory in the world was there at that time. It would be far to expensive for any of them to manufacture in the US. Quality control is done here. The blems are sold off cheap. You may be getting blems at Walmart. I have no idea.

No, actually I bought the previous Made in the USA Wranglers 5 or 6 years ago, no more than that, from a western store in Ft Myers. It had the label inside.

billbenson
11-25-2009, 03:38 PM
Found this:


American jeans used to mean Levi, Wrangler, and Lee, to name a few. Today, Levi jeans are made overseas. Wrangler and Lee brands are owned by VF Corp., which also owns Chic Jeans, Riders, and Rustler brands. VF Corp. has manufacturing plants located in the United States , as well as other parts of the world. So, while it MAY be possible to find a pair of Wrangler or Lee jeans made in USA , it's a bit like looking for a needle in a haystack. Likewise, jeans made for LLBean, Landsend, and the GAP are imported.

Evan
11-25-2009, 06:32 PM
I generally value my time at $100 an hour. On my "off" or liesure time, it's a lot higher.

So do you not cook at home? Presumably prep and cook time, including shopping, would be at least an hour... :)

Dan Furman
11-25-2009, 07:56 PM
So do you not cook at home? Presumably prep and cook time, including shopping, would be at least an hour... :)

well, that's part of liesure time :)

Plus, I'm a fussy eater.

KristineS
11-25-2009, 08:19 PM
For some people cooking isn't a chore. I enjoy it, so to me it's time well spent. Sounds like it is that for Dan as well.

Not to mention I eat much better and in a much more nutritious manner than if I ate out all the time. The savings in better health due to better nutrition alone are worth the time it takes to cook.

Evan
11-27-2009, 07:00 AM
well, that's part of liesure time :)

Plus, I'm a fussy eater.

OK, so then it is acceptable. Trying to just gauge your train of thought on it :)

billbenson
12-31-2009, 02:43 AM
Went into a restaurant that served wings today. Owner was at the cash register. Small place, maybe 15 small tables. My order was $14.78. I wanted to get rid of some change including penny's. I had $14.77 using up all my pennies. I said I want to get rid of some pennies, will you take $14.77? He replied in a very annoyed voice "it's $14.88 sir!"

I was actually shocked. Most places these days have a little tray with some pennies in it. I have often tossed an extra penny in those when I had a penny or two change.

What absolutely amazed me was the owner would risk loosing a customer over a penny. And, actually, I'll go to another wing joint next time. There are plenty around. I wasn't mad, I was just absolutely amazed that an owner would risk loosing a repeat customer over a penny.

vangogh
12-31-2009, 03:29 AM
Wow. That's crazy and it's someone who has no clue about customer service. I guess his customers are only worth a penny to him or rather less than a penny.

I've been in some stores where my purchase might cost $x.05 and I don't have change and the person behind the counter still gives me a single back instead of change. I've also been to some stores that will give you back 99 cents in change if you don't have the penny.

Spider
12-31-2009, 09:52 AM
Bear in mind, many cash register attendants don't have the authority to give away any of the company's money - even a single penny. And they have to account for underage in the register at the end of their shift out of their own pocket (or be charged with theft.)

Not the case with the business owner, of course.

billbenson
12-31-2009, 01:22 PM
It's rare in my experience that there isn't a cup with some penny's in it by the register. I think in the case of the owner not providing it, many employees would do it on their own. It's just easier. Even a minimum wage employee.

cbscreative
12-31-2009, 05:11 PM
Amazing, bill, I can see where rules in a larger place might make this an issue for reasons like Spider mentioned (though I usually see the penny trays even in "big" places), but for a small establishment, that is astounding.

Patrysha
12-31-2009, 11:04 PM
There's not much you can do when you run into clueless penny pinchers but shake your head and be grateful that they make it easy to give spectacular service and value in comparison.

Do you think they would change their tune if they realized how much demanding that 1 penny cost them.

Though on wing night the restaurant makes close to nothing on the wings...

Though change is hardly ever a issue for me, I so seldom actually carry real cash.

Dan Furman
01-01-2010, 08:43 PM
Went into a restaurant that served wings today. Owner was at the cash register. Small place, maybe 15 small tables. My order was $14.78. I wanted to get rid of some change including penny's. I had $14.77 using up all my pennies. I said I want to get rid of some pennies, will you take $14.77? He replied in a very annoyed voice "it's $14.88 sir!"

I was actually shocked. Most places these days have a little tray with some pennies in it. I have often tossed an extra penny in those when I had a penny or two change.

What absolutely amazed me was the owner would risk loosing a customer over a penny. And, actually, I'll go to another wing joint next time. There are plenty around. I wasn't mad, I was just absolutely amazed that an owner would risk loosing a repeat customer over a penny.

How do you feel when someone has a firm price that they agreed to, but then wants to negotiate for whatever reason? I realize it's just a penny, but still, you were asking him to lose a negotiation. Anyone's first reaction, especially at a cash register where nobody negotiates checks, is probably going to be negative (even over a penny - he may not have even really thought about the amount, and just thought "no, pay what the check is"). And maybe he just got beat up over price by a vendor, etc. I'd cut the guy some slack, Bill.

To be honest, I kind of find the whole thing a bit odd, really. Here's basically what your experience is saying: Hey, Mr. Merchant - you will act as a quasi bank and relieve me of my unwanted change, even if it means accepting less than the bill. If you do not do this, I will take my business elsewhere.

billbenson
01-02-2010, 01:53 PM
How do you feel when someone has a firm price that they agreed to, but then wants to negotiate for whatever reason? I realize it's just a penny, but still, you were asking him to lose a negotiation. Anyone's first reaction, especially at a cash register where nobody negotiates checks, is probably going to be negative (even over a penny - he may not have even really thought about the amount, and just thought "no, pay what the check is"). And maybe he just got beat up over price by a vendor, etc. I'd cut the guy some slack, Bill.

To be honest, I kind of find the whole thing a bit odd, really. Here's basically what your experience is saying: Hey, Mr. Merchant - you will act as a quasi bank and relieve me of my unwanted change, even if it means accepting less than the bill. If you do not do this, I will take my business elsewhere.

That's all well and good Dan, but his attitude will loose clients. He's the salesman, I'm the client. I wasn't trying to save a penny, I was trying to get rid of the damn penny's in my pocket. Also, penny's at registers have become a status quo. What he exhibited IMO is poor salesmanship. Particularly, when when I came back 5 minutes later to pick up my order and he didn't remember me. It was slow. He didn't have more than 3 clients or so from my order to picking up my order.

Dan Furman
01-02-2010, 08:41 PM
That's all well and good Dan, but his attitude will loose clients. He's the salesman, I'm the client. I wasn't trying to save a penny, I was trying to get rid of the damn penny's in my pocket. Also, penny's at registers have become a status quo. What he exhibited IMO is poor salesmanship. Particularly, when when I came back 5 minutes later to pick up my order and he didn't remember me. It was slow. He didn't have more than 3 clients or so from my order to picking up my order.

But I'm betting he didn't even realize it was a penny - he probably thought "oh, someone wants to negotiate the check" and automatically says "no" - it's like when we say "not interested" to the telemarketer before even understanding the offer. I say "no" and I don't even know what I'm saying no to, even though the person on the phone just explained it - I totally wasn't listening / understanding.

Listen, there are a myriad of reasons to not do business with a place. But them not being receptive to negotiating the check is (imho, anyway) a strange reason.

billbenson
01-03-2010, 01:58 AM
He understood me Dan. And he did it with an 'attitude'. I wasn't pissed, just surprised. Whether its the penny or the attitude, its still poor salesmanship.

Dan Furman
01-03-2010, 02:11 AM
He understood me Dan. And he did it with an 'attitude'. I wasn't pissed, just surprised. Whether its the penny or the attitude, its still poor salesmanship.

Attitude certainly wasn't necessary. I agree w/ that.

I still think he was more adverse to "not negotiating the check" than "I can't lose a penny". Truthfully, the latter makes no sense. The former makes a lot.

Do the other places have better wings? :)

billbenson
01-03-2010, 03:45 PM
Other place is Hooters. It has penny's and better ambiance.

Dan Furman
01-03-2010, 10:08 PM
Other place is Hooters. It has penny's and better ambiance.

Geez... why aren't you going there in the first place?